SPARE AMMO

[Dump1567]

I got this in an email today from "Guns" magazine. I though it was a good read worth sharing.

HOW MANY ROUNDS SHOULD A PISTOL-PACKER PACK?
IT’S A CONTENTIOUS DEBATE

GUNS Magazine Spare Ammo - GUNS Magazine

[Frailer]

The “better to have and not need, than to need and not have” argument is a slippery slope.

All of us who carry firearms subscribe to this idea to some degree, because the likelihood that we will need it is minuscule. The question is where we choose to draw the line.

In my own case, before I’ll carry a specific handgun I’ll shoot it until I am convinced that it is sufficiently reliable to bet my life on. I’m perfectly OK with carrying a gun that will consistently deliver 5-12 rounds without a problem. I’m also perfectly OK with someone who feels unprepared without a reload or three.

There will always be those who feel compelled to judge the choices of others; it’s one of our many human flaws. I, for example, can’t believe there are people who walk around every day without a small flashlight in their pocket. Don’t these people realize that it gets dark every single day?

[rockquarry]

Originally Posted by Frailer

The “better to have and not need, than to need and not have” argument is a slippery slope.

All of us who carry firearms subscribe to this idea to some degree, because the likelihood that we will need it is minuscule. The question is where we choose to draw the line.

In my own case, before I’ll carry a specific handgun I’ll shoot it until I am convinced that it is sufficiently reliable to bet my life on. I’m perfectly OK with carrying a gun that will consistently deliver 5-12 rounds without a problem. I’m also perfectly OK with someone who feels unprepared without a reload or three.

There will always be those who feel compelled to judge the choices of others; it’s one of our many human flaws. I, for example, can’t believe there are people who walk around every day without a small flashlight in their pocket. Don’t these people realize that it gets dark every single day?

Very good post and much better than most on a controversial topic.

[Echo40]

I always pack a spare magazine, a backup, a spare magazine for my backup, and a knife.

If I can't adequately defend myself with that much, then no amount of extra ammo would make a difference.

That being said, I think that like so many other choices regarding self-defense, that the matter is highly subjective, and that there is no such thing as an ideal, universal loadout which will work for everyone, ergo choices in regards to self-defense are best left to individual discretion.

[Old cop]

My 30 yrs on the street taught me to always have enough ammo for a fight that may be coming your way. I ran dry in the midst of a 1974 gunfight w/armed robbery suspects. Mas Ayoob penned an article about my experiences in the Sept - Oct 2016 edition of American Handgunner & I still carry spare ammo for my EDC in retirement.

[Sevens]

I agree with the idea that sometimes we come (or, in fact we are) critical of others’ choices on these matters. That isn’t my intent, I tend to default to the same basic thought each time— regardless of how critical I might be about another’s methods, I am very happy that they have chosen to go armed and I hope they are a registered, active voter also.

For those of us carrying a semiautomatic pistol, please consider that having a second magazine is a very fast and effective way to move past most failures. So even if it isn’t about how much ammo you have, it very well could be about making your pistol quickly run again when there isn’t time to do a deep-dive on whatever the problem might be.

[fmflorida]

Just throwing this idea out there, personally I carry a P226 9mm with a 15 round mag and a 20 round mag off side for a reload.

I fall in line with Clint Smiths philosophy of not carrying an extra mag because I may have to shoot more but more along the lines of magazines, typically, are what fail a firearm. Its much faster to drop a magazine and reload than trying to fumble and clear a malfunction.

I personally never understood why some judge others decisions on how to protect themselves. If you feel a 5-shot j-frame is enough for you, by all means...if you feel 150 rounds and 10 magazines for you Glock 19/M&P compact is what you want/are comfortable with go for it.

At the end of the day, no one has ever said "well yeah I had too much ammo in that gun fight, I should have left the extra magazines/speed strips at home", however, we can find plenty of stories of people wishing they had more ammo or came to their last 4-5 rounds before the fight was over.

[pharmer]

All this worry about ammo. 90+% of folks are walking around without so much as a pocketknife. Most of them are convinced that "bad things" will happen to "other folks", secretly thinking they are also bad people. For the last 2 months I have been real sick with the COVID. Since becoming relatively enfeebled I put my 6906 in the safe in favor of a .38 Model 640. It's what I can handle with one hand. Reloads are unnecessary as toting an 02 tank needs a hand. Just today I switched back to 12 rd goodness. I have full 5906 mags stashed about everywhere for just such an occasion. If'n my luck holds out I won't need my sidearm till well past dead. Quit worrying. Joe

[fiasconva]

What's that old saying about no one in a gunfight never complaining about having too much ammo?

[sousana]

1911A1 as my PC and Colt Officers as BUG, along with 6 spare Remington 7 round magazines.

[Doug M.]

First off: I am just about never unarmed. Usually it is a 8-10 round pistol with a spare magazine; I have two default choices. I also have a 500 lumen Surefire flashlight and a knife. Sometimes, it is a compact revolver with 2 speedloaders (S&W 296). I also have my phone and a hands free bluetooth speaker/mike. I just had surgery that limits my choices a lot in both clothes and sidearms; pretty sure if I go out in the next few days, it will be a Glock 42 in a pocket holster. I have no other means of fleeing or fighting - a bad situation.
If I am actually traveling outside my usual locale, I might well have some additional options. However, think of it this way: The more important I think it is to be armed, the more important I think it is to not go to that place.

[sigp220.45]

When I was a LEO I carried a Sig P220 and a spare mag.

Now that I am a retired gentleman of leisure in a nice town I carry a gun of some type and no reload.

If someone could show me a non-LEO shooting that required a reload to triumph I might reconsider.

Until then I don’t carry a reload for the same reason I don’t carry a slide rule or an ice cream scoop. I am unlikely to need them.

[ColbyBruce]

“ or an ice cream scoop. I am unlikely to need them.”

I feel compelled to point out an ice cream scoop could be invaluable. In 1968 when Emory University coed Barbara Jane Mackle was kidnapped and buried alive in Gwinnett county just a few miles from where I used to live the FBI and other LEO’s on the scene used their hands and shoes to unearth that box she was in.

[Rustyt1953]

Originally Posted by sigp220.45

Until then I don’t carry a reload for the same reason I don’t carry a slide rule or an ice cream scoop. I am unlikely to need them.

[RobertJ.]

Originally Posted by Frailer

I, for example, can’t believe there are people who walk around every day without a small flashlight in their pocket. Don’t these people realize that it gets dark every single day?

Does the flashlight feature on a cell phone count?

[KLYDE]

Originally Posted by sigp220.45

When I was a LEO I carried a Sig P220 and a spare mag.

Now that I am a retired gentleman of leisure in a nice town I carry a gun of some type and no reload.

If someone could show me a non-LEO shooting that required a reload to triumph I might reconsider.

Until then I don’t carry a reload for the same reason I don’t carry a slide rule or an ice cream scoop. I am unlikely to need them.

Here you go. "The Best Defense" Chapter Two titled "High Noon".

Citizen Travis Neel heading to the range with two 9mm pistols. Came across a traffic stop with a Houston Deputy and three armed thugs. The Deputy was shot and critically wounded. Neal accessed his range guns and expended 39 rounds in a vicious, several minute shoot out before help arrived. He saved the life of the Deputy.

Evil lives among us. Fact is that we never know when it will show up. A situation that any one of us could find ourselves in at any given time.

Klyde

[sigp220.45]

Ok, I’ll give you the guy who fired 39 rounds and didn’t hit anything.

[Onomea]

How much ammo, or not, one chooses to carry seems an odd thing to criticize other people about.

(Now if it was something truly important to other people, say like teeth brushing, I could see being critical...)

[ISCS Yoda]

Originally Posted by RobertJ.

Does the flashlight feature on a cell phone count?

EXACTLY what I was going to say.

I carry a flashlight in my vehicles, there are several around my house, but for the 21st century I am happy to have a quickly available flashlight in that thingamabob I carry everywhere, besides the gun that I carry everywhere.

In the past I never felt the need to carry spare ammunition when I carried a J frame but I have started to carry a little ammunition wallet in my back pocket with 5 additional rounds. Times have changed.

When I carry a pistol I almost always carry at least one spare magazine but that's because when I carry my 9mm I'm usually headed somewhere that is literally considered to be very safe but that COULD be a target for some kind of crazy person, be he terrorist or some kind of extremist - houses of worship, shopping malls (rarely do I head to that kind of place but it is what it is), theaters, etc.

I don't argue with the "I only carry 5 in my J frame" crowd - I spent too many years doing that so I understand.

[Frailer]

Originally Posted by RobertJ.

Does the flashlight feature on a cell phone count?

No. It absolutely does not.

And on a different note, the guy grabbed his two 9mm pistols should have grabbed a *rifle*. He was in his car, forgoodnesssakes.

[Buford57]

Originally Posted by Old cop

My 30 yrs on the street taught me to always have enough ammo for a fight that may be coming your way. I ran dry in the midst of a 1974 gunfight w/armed robbery suspects. Mas Ayoob penned an article about my experiences in the Sept - Oct 2016 edition of American Handgunner & I still carry spare ammo for my EDC in retirement.

If that was the article I remember, it was also a good argument for impact weapons.

[ladder13]

Originally Posted by Onomea

How much ammo, or not, one chooses to carry seems an odd thing to criticize other people about.

(Now if it was something truly important to other people, say like teeth brushing, I could see being critical...)

I met a guy once at a gun show, he smelled like a sewer. Good thing I’ll never run into him again.

[steelslaver]

So now I got to carry a ice cream scoop instead of a reload, cause I do run into a carton of good ice cream from time to time


PS. I run into far more ice cream than bad guys. I do occasionally run into someone that should be shot, but not under any situation where it would be legal. Most of them eventually shoot themselves in one form or the other anyway. If I need more than the 6 in my 325 and the 6 in my pocket, most likely the amount of ammo I have on me wasn't my biggest mistake and even if it was making it through all 12 and still being able to fire some more is highly unlikely.

Besides I figure, that if they announcing my demise with Big Jim went down when he ran out of ammo, I will have to live with it. Har har har.

[Old cop]

Originally Posted by Buford57

If that was the article I remember, it was also a good argument for impact weapons.

You’re right, I was forced to finish that fight w/my blackjack.

[luvsmiths]

Originally Posted by ColbyBruce

“ or an ice cream scoop. I am unlikely to need them.”

I feel compelled to point out an ice cream scoop could be invaluable. In 1968 when Emory University coed Barbara Jane Mackle was kidnapped and buried alive in Gwinnett county just a few miles from where I used to live the FBI and other LEO’s on the scene used their hands and shoes to unearth that box she was in.

So, in other words, they didn't need an ice cream scoop.

[Llance]

Strictly speaking as and for a civilian, If you think you might need a reload carry two. If you don't think you'll need a reload be sure to stay away from the areas where you are likely to find trouble.

Why two, because if you think you might need a reload then you need to have a spare to "refill" following whatever stupid action you found yourself in.

I only have one spare mag for my .32 auto. I never carry it to locations where I think I might need it. I carry it because it's light, cheap, and if I do my part it will do what is needed should the fecal matter come in contact with the rotating air circulation device, and I find myself needing to defend my life or someone else. I have no question concerning it's reliability. What am I going to do if my one spare mag isn't enough? Likely I'll die and as I do so I'll pray like 'ell the bad guy(s) rot in 'ell for killing me.

I guess what I've been saying is stay away from trouble if you can. If it finds you then be prepared to do your part to take it to the bad guy(s).

[LoboGunLeather]

Originally Posted by sigp220.45

Ok, I’ll give you the guy who fired 39 rounds and didn’t hit anything.

OK, but we still have to acknowledge that the guy stood and delivered 39 rounds while under fire himself, as well as the fact that he was under no obligation to expose himself to any part of that situation. The man stepped up and acted in the face of serious danger (perhaps the definition of courage).

Law enforcement engagements are different than military actions, and private citizens involved in shooting incidents are even more different. I recall that in Vietnam our forces expended thousands of rounds for every reported hostile casualty. The same is probably true of the more recent military conflicts.

After 24 years as a cop and two combat tours in Vietnam I am not ready to speak disparagingly of a civilian who willingly exposed himself and did his best under fire. The man tried 39 times while exposed and under fire. I suggest that this deserves respect.

[Cal44]

Originally Posted by RobertJ.

Does the flashlight feature on a cell phone count?

In a self defense situation, I'd say the cell phone flashlight feature isn't nearly as good as a flashlight.

To use a cell phone flashlight takes time to find the right icon. Usually takes two hands. My phone requires a pin code to unlock also.

I carry a small AAA or AA battery flashlight with a push button switch which can be turned on with one hand. ( the lights which require you to twist the lens take two hands so I don't carry those ). This leaves the other hand free to draw the gun as you use the light to assess the need to shoot.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by RobertJ.

Does the flashlight feature on a cell phone count?

No. The primary purpose of your cell phone is communications. Using the flashlight takes away from that.

I have a 350 lumen flashlight that's the size of my little finger. I don't even notice it in my pocket

[Ivan the Butcher]

Originally Posted by Frailer

And on a different note, the guy grabbed his two 9mm pistols should have grabbed a *rifle*. He was in his car, forgoodnesssakes.

In Ohio, it is a felony to have a loaded long gun OR EVEN LOADED MAGIZINES inside the vehicle with you. That goes for CC people too!

Ivan

[KLYDE]

Originally Posted by LoboGunLeather

OK, but we still have to acknowledge that the guy stood and delivered 39 rounds while under fire himself, as well as the fact that he was under no obligation to expose himself to any part of that situation. The man stepped up and acted in the face of serious danger (perhaps the definition of courage).

Law enforcement engagements are different than military actions, and private citizens involved in shooting incidents are even more different. I recall that in Vietnam our forces expended thousands of rounds for every reported hostile casualty. The same is probably true of the more recent military conflicts.

After 24 years as a cop and two combat tours in Vietnam I am not ready to speak disparagingly of a civilian who willingly exposed himself and did his best under fire. The man tried 39 times while exposed and under fire. I suggest that this deserves respect.

Quite perplexing that a retired LE would make a statement like that about a civilian that stepped up and saved the life of a Deputy.

Neel, a Korean War Veteran, survivor of Heartbreak Ridge and FFL holder had just had open heart surgery. After a recuperation period, it was his first trip to the range. He had a trap shotgun and two CZ-75's.

The perps had shot Deputy Flores 4 times. He was down. Neel inserted himself between Flores and the bad guys and got the Deputy to safety. Many of his rounds fired were suppressive fire. Neel stated that every time he would stop the suppressive fire the perps would start shooting and attempt to advance on him and the deputy. Neel was down to his last mag when an off duty sheriff came on scene with a snub nose .38. After the second deputy showed up the perps fled the scene and were later apprehended.

In 1995 Neel testified in front of the Texas Senate as an advocate for the "right to carry law". Because of his testimony the Senate passed the right-to carry law. Travis Neel was not some keyboard commando "fantasizing" about a gun fight. He was a true hero. Quite a story and worth the read.

My Sig 938 has a 7 shot mag capacity. The mags are small and easily carried. One mag is carried in my Lobo inside waist band mag holder. The other in my pocket. At 21 rounds, some probably consider me as "packing light", but that is what works for me.
Klyde

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by Ivan the Butcher

In Ohio, it is a felony to have a loaded LONG gun OR EVEN LOADED MAGIZINES inside the vehicle with you. That goes for CC people too!

Ivan

Link or slink bro

My apologies, I missed a very important word in the poster's sentence. Although, the comment about not being allowed to have loaded magazines without specifying FOR A LONG GUN was a little confusing.

[Smoke]

For a long time I carried two spare magazines because of something I read from Massad Ayoob in which he basically said if the cops carry two reloads you should too.

Then I got old and it got to be a pain. I generally carry one reload but since the black plague and retirement I don't really get out more than once or twice a week anyway.

[gwpercle]

Carry as many rounds as you feel you have too.

" Is six enough ... is twelve too many ? " ...
Gary

[just plain joe]

Not looking to start a flame war or disparage anyone postings here.

That being said, I carry my Model 13-2, 3 inch with a backup Comp II speed-loader. I feel adequately armed and am confident in my choices. I had similar discussions with fellow officers when a police officer. Most didn't carry when not working. That's a whole other ball of wax.

I once got into a discussion with one of our detectives. He said that he never carried extra ammunition as it was highly unlikely it would be needed, citing an FBI study. I listened to his reasoning, much of which was logical. I then asked him where in his garage he stored his spare tire. (Crickets).

This discussion is multi-faceted. For example, my carrying six rounds of spare ammunition is still woeful in comparison to someone carrying a hi-cap semiautomatic pistol with 15+1 rounds and no extra ammunition. As such I don't believe that there is any 100% right or 100% wrong answer. Based on statistics it is logical that you will be able to "solve" most problems with the ammunition in your firearm. But to be logical is not always to be right. Nothing on God's green earth will make it so.

When I went through the police academy my firearms instructor explained to us about Murphy's Law. He ended the discussion with the admonition that Murphy was a police officer. I believe in redundancy, just like airline pilots. When I do carry my Glock 19-5, I carry a spare magazine in case my primary magazine fails at the worst possible time. I carry the spare Comp II. While malfunctions with revolvers are rare, they are not unheard of.

Find out what works for you and have at it. I was fortunate to train three times with Pat Rogers (RIP). He said it best. "It's not the arrow, it's the Indian".

[JackM]

Older and wiser guy told me a long time ago that the best place to carry spare ammo--is in a spare gun.

[ColbyBruce]

Originally Posted by luvsmiths

So, in other words, they didn't need an ice cream scoop.

An ice cream scoop would of been more effective than bare hands and the inside of the heel portion of a shoe.

That area back then was largely undeveloped forest with practically no nearby stores to purchase shovels. I believe the batteries that powered the ventilation system to her box had died by the time she was freed.

Both her abductors were released from prison. They should of died there.

[Muss Muggins]

Same here. When I’m out and about settling misunderstandings on purpose, it’s a different story. Like the punchline of that old joke: “No ma’am. If I was expecting trouble, I’d be carrying my rifle . . . “

Originally Posted by sigp220.45

When I was a LEO I carried a Sig P220 and a spare mag.

Now that I am a retired gentleman of leisure in a nice town I carry a gun of some type and no reload.

If someone could show me a non-LEO shooting that required a reload to triumph I might reconsider.

Until then I don’t carry a reload for the same reason I don’t carry a slide rule or an ice cream scoop. I am unlikely to need them.

[Muss Muggins]

Originally Posted by Smoke

Link or slink bro

I’ll help him/her:

Section 2923.16 - Ohio Revised Code | Ohio Laws

[haywood]

Originally Posted by KLYDE

Here you go. "The Best Defense" Chapter Two titled "High Noon".

Citizen Travis Neel heading to the range with two 9mm pistols. Came across a traffic stop with a Houston Deputy and three armed thugs. The Deputy was shot and critically wounded. Neal accessed his range guns and expended 39 rounds in a vicious, several minute shoot out before help arrived. He saved the life of the Deputy.

Evil lives among us. Fact is that we never know when it will show up. A situation that any one of us could find ourselves in at any given time.

Klyde

I read this and remember that Story. Since then I have carried Two guns and extra rounds. Extra speed loaders are in every vehicle also.

[URIT]

Our department Rangemaster often commented, "if you can't get the job done with 4 or 5 rounds... RUN." He attributed the saying to his friend Jeff Cooper who shared this tidbit with him while having cocktails after a Leatherslap competition in California. Of course, we were shooting revolvers in the '60s.

Today, I don't feel compelled to run toward trouble and use the Colonel's advice. I'm comfortable not carrying an extra mag with my S&W 3953 or 4053.

[9mmPatriot]

I stepped up from an M&P Shield with an extra magazine to an M&P 9c with a 15 rd magazine and 1 in the pipe.



I make no claims to this being the perfect solution for everyone, it was simply the right choice for me.



I will say that unless you train on a regular basis with your weapon of choice, round count won't matter. Proficiency and accuracy are perishable skills.....just in case no one ever told ya.

[IronSkillet]

Enjoyed the article along with the different perspectives posted in this thread. Not sure my way of doing it is correct but this is what works best for me. I carry J-Frame .38 for concealed weapon of choice with 2/3 reloads (strips or speedloaders). With today's crazy world is a battle pack of ammo going to be enough on hand ammo? If having to use my weapon it will strictly be defensive protection of family/self while exfil or finding cover/concealment if retreating is not an option. Nothing worse then getting into a gunfight and then not knowing what to do when law enforcement arrives on scene? Do you know what to do then, you just smoked a bad guy? Maybe that's a different thread.

[max503]

I've been known to carry one spare bullet with my change.
Hey. It worked for Barney Fife.

[riverrat38]

Originally Posted by max503

I've been known to carry one spare bullet with my change.
Hey. It worked for Barney Fife.

Mayberry reload?

73,
Rick

[GaryS]

I did this for a short while as well. When I carried a 6906 as my PD handgun, that meant 37 rounds.

While police officers are expected to go to the sound of the guns and engage the bad guys, that's generally not something civilians will want or need to do.

I now generally carry a pre rail 3913TSW or CS9 when I'm out and about. I find that 7+1 in the handgun and 7 in the spare magazine are sufficient. The main reason for the extra magazine is in case there is some sort of failure and I need to swap out the mag in the gun. Not that there SHOULD be a failure, but stuff happens.

Originally Posted by Smoke

For a long time I carried two spare magazines because of something I read from Massad Ayoob in which he basically said if the cops carry two reloads you should too.

Then I got old and it got to be a pain. I generally carry one reload but since the black plague and retirement I don't really get out more than once or twice a week anyway.

[GaryS]

As a Washington Fish and Game officer said on a recent show,

"If I knew where I was going to need a gun, I wouldn't need a gun."

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

Same here. When I’m out and about settling misunderstandings on purpose, it’s a different story. Like the punchline of that old joke: “No ma’am. If I was expecting trouble, I’d be carrying my rifle . . . “

[NYlakesider]

It depends!

If going out away from my normal areas that I know quite well or unusual circumstances are occurring I will carry a .45 XDs with a reload. I'm not a LEO and for the most part understand applicable self defense laws so chances of a serious problem are rare. Its a good bet my street knowledge will keep me out of most bad situations. (grew up on the wrong side of the tracks)

If just leaving the house and staying in what I describe as a safe/known area (Like going to a local store or taking a walk)! I will have a 5 shot LCR.38 on me, most times no extra ammo.

So far in 50 years of carrying all has been well. Had a gun in my hand twice but no shots fired. In my house my guns and situations are different and that is for another time to relate!

[Oldsalt66]

Because of incidents like these, however unlikely, I always carry a handgun in a bonafide service caliber, and at least one reload consisting of the sort of ammunition regularly employed by law enforcement.

I try to avoid going places where I feel I need to be armed, but, unfortunately, evildoers are to be found everywhere these days, even in places I normally have good reason to feel safe and secure.

And besides, “feels” have nothing to do with how events may unfold and none of these victims had the slightest feeling that they were going to be targeted by madmen.

Gunman identified in Collierville Kroger shooting; victims now up to 15

Aurora shooting leaves 12 dead, 70 wounded - HISTORY

28 years later: A look back at the Luby'''s massacre - ABC13 Houston

[dave1918a2]

Whatever each of You feel comfortable with. Whether it's 6 or 60. Doesn't matter as it's Your choice.