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Old 03-06-2015, 08:58 PM
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I teach CCW (carry concealed weapon) classes. It is my goal in these classes to help people learn the law and to shoot better in defensive situations. The law in CA doesn't require a shooting component to get a CCW license. However, my local sheriff likes to see it included in the class. To qualify for the shooting portion, a student must shoot 20 shots. They must all be within the silhouette of a B-27E target like this one:

This target is enormous at 2' wide by 3' tall.

The course of fire is:
  • 4 shots from 3 yards
  • 6 shots from 5 yards
  • 6 shots from 7 yards
  • 4 shots from 10 yards
All shots are fired with the shooters choice of grip and stance and start from the ready position (gun loaded, but not in holster). They are all untimed so, there is no need to hurry.

The goal here is to see that the students can handle their guns safely and at least get their bullets to go in the general direction of the target. I thought this would be a very easy test. After instructing many students, I can see that this is more difficult than I thought.

Because I thought it was easy, I had never actually shot the full course. I'm a huge believer that an instructor doesn't need to be the best, but should at least be able to do what he's asking the students to do. So, today I shot the test. Here is my result:

Notice that all the shots are in the orange. There is actually a tiny bit of orange between the right line and the right most hole. So, none of my shots are even touching the line. (It was sunny, but the wind was blowing about 5-10MPH from my back.)

So, I challenge everyone here to run the same course of fire. There is a lot of talk about, "I shoot well enough to defend myself." OK, I'm calling you out. Run this course of fire and post your pics here. Can you keep all 20 shots in the orange? I don't think you can! That's right, I said it, I DON'T THINK YOU CAN DO IT!!!

Here are the rules:
  • Any target may be used. To say you did as well as I did, all your shots must be within a 2"x3" oval. That's the size of the B-27E bullseye. So, either use a B-27E (regular B-27 would be fine) or provide proof of the size of your group.
  • The gun must be a gun used for self/home-defense.
  • The gun must be used in the same fashion it would be used for defense. So, if it is a DA/SA, the first shot at each yardage must be shot DA first and then SA for the rest. If it's a revolver it must be shot DA for every shot.
  • The course of fire is as above.
  • All shots are untimed.

This is done on your honor. If you say you did it, I'll believe you, but you must post a picture of your target. Let's keep this in the spirit of the forum. While I'm sure you can use this gun to defend yourself...

...it doesn't fit the spirit of the competition.

I used this one:


Well there it is.

I know you can't beat me, but can you even come close? PROVE IT!!! (There might be a prize involved. )
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Old 03-06-2015, 09:12 PM
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Rumor has it that it may break the freezing mark here in PA for the 1st time since August. If it gets near 50 anytime soon, I'll play.
I have pistols that would fit the CCW/HD bill that I might be able to do it with, but I have my doubts about my 3914. Then again, the challenge isn't to win, but to learn.
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Old 03-06-2015, 09:16 PM
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It's too cold to go to the range right now but I've done this;

With this;

From about this far away;

The head shots were done from the low ready position, bringing the gun up and shooting quickly. I also dumped one cylinder quickly in the red.
I can't help but wonder how I'd do if my hands worked right.
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Old 03-06-2015, 09:23 PM
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...I have my doubts about my 3914.
If this is a gun you use for defense, let's erase those doubts. Give it a shot (pun intended). Who knows, you just might do it.

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Then again, the challenge isn't to win, but to learn.
Absolutely correct! You sir, understand.
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Old 03-06-2015, 09:25 PM
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Nice shooting Snubby!
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Old 03-06-2015, 09:29 PM
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Love it. Have been very jealous of the internet matches in one of the other sub forums. Great idea Rastoff.

We are in the record books for cold and snowfall depth at this point but by god I will find a way to do this!
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Old 03-06-2015, 09:45 PM
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I like this exercise. I think I'm going to include this in my next range session. If I do I'll update with a picture.

In the meantime, I shot the following group at my last range session back in January. It was my 1st 5 shots of the day (and the 1st 5 shots in a long time...haven't been able to get to the range in quite some time, much longer than I'd care to admit).



I shot it using my 642 with 132gr PMC FMJ at ~10 yards, 2-handed, standing, no support. Carefully aimed each shot. Also, the gun is stock except for Spegel boot grips (i.e., no trigger work). It's the gun in my avatar.

The target is a BT-5 (my favorite, FYI) and the white rectangle is a 3"x5" adhesive mailing label.

Not great, but I don't think it's too bad, either. There's always room for improvement.
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Old 03-06-2015, 10:44 PM
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I don't care how well you shoot unless you're shooting at me. When you're 63 with two bad knees that will barely hold you up, hands that shake, and eyes that will never focus again, then we'll have a level playing field.

But I can still pass your test.
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Old 03-06-2015, 11:08 PM
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I'll give it a try this next week using my EDC...a Glock gen 3 mod 22. I have my doubts about how I'll do until after my cataract surgery next month...

BTW...since you said self-home defense, someone who doesn't carry but has a SD/HD gun just to stay at home, someone COULD meet your standards with a red dot equipped AR ya know...
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Old 03-07-2015, 12:41 AM
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Well, yeah, I guess an AR with a 4x ACOG would technically meet the criteria. Of course it would violate the essence of the OP.

But hey, if you feel you need a rifle to best what I can do with a pistol, then OK.
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Old 03-07-2015, 12:55 AM
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OK, I'll play. Only difference is...this is from 7 yds and 10 yds (25 rounds each). The "fliers" are at 10 yd's.
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Old 03-07-2015, 01:11 AM
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Nice shooting and the right gun too!
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Old 03-07-2015, 06:45 AM
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...if you feel you need a rifle to best what I can do with a pistol, then OK.
LOL...I see what yer doin'...
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Old 03-07-2015, 07:09 AM
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I take your challenge and I plan to beat you!
I may have to enter a few times.

David
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Old 03-07-2015, 07:55 AM
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When it warms up a bit, I give it a shot. It'll be interesting to see my results.

Kevin
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Old 03-07-2015, 08:44 AM
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Nice shooting and the right gun too!
You guys ever consider a pistol from the 2nd half of the previous century???

Actually, that was one of the pistols I was referring to in my previous post.
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Old 03-07-2015, 09:37 AM
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while cleaning the suv and front walk, 5 deg. & snowing wed., the wind was right and i could hear someone using the range. put a smile on my face, doesn't take much w/ cabin fever. -6 the other night and i stood outside looking at the stars, a thought- spring is coming. cleaned out the range bag. cut some patches. being able to go to the range during the week is great, few shooters. now i just have to search how to post pictures.
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Old 03-07-2015, 11:27 AM
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I can help with posting pics. There are a couple of explanations on the forum, like this one: Posting pictures

Or you can email them to me at [email protected] and I'll post them for you.
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Old 03-07-2015, 03:00 PM
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I'll give it a go at my next range trip.
I typically use the Birchwood Casey 6" Shoot-N-See.
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Old 03-07-2015, 04:22 PM
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I can't say I spend all too much time shooting from a static stance anymore. I just don't think it accurately reflects defensive realities.
It doesn't, that's the point. Lots of guys on the interweb claim that they are "good enough" shots so they don't need this training or that practice. This is a challenge to see if they, anyone, can even shoot at a static target.

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It's important for the beginner...
Marksmanship and fundamentals are important for everyone from beginner to advanced. Anyone who says differently is...well, wrong.

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...if your not training a lot of shooting one handed incorporating defensive movement, I don't think your preparing properly yourself to effectively the majority of handle actual defensive scenarios you would likely encounter.
Yeah, sure, but let's start at the beginning. Remember, I teach defensive shooting so, I agree that movement, shooting with one hand, shooting with the support hand and other stuff, is necessary to be as effective as one can be in a defensive situation. But first let's just hit the target.

Your comment gives me the impression that "Rastoff's Challenge" is beneath you or not worth your time. Is that true? If it is, then you are exactly the person I'm challenging. There is never a time in shooting when Sight Alignment, Sight Picture, Trigger Control and Follow Through are not important. This challenge is an exercise in executing those 4 fundamentals as perfectly as you can. Think "one ragged hole" drill.

We talk all the time about how shot placement is the key to effective self-defense shooting. Here is an opportunity to test yourself at shot placement. The goal here is the smallest group possible. It's you vs the target, nothing more.


Don't lose sight of the fact that this is for fun and experience. We can do more later. Also, no one has to participate. This is just an opportunity to challenge ourselves. If anyone doesn't want to do it, fine.

Are you in?
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Old 03-07-2015, 05:42 PM
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Rastoff- I spent a couple years full time teaching various federal LEO agencies. About 85% were new recruits, and 15% advanced instruction.

What surprised me was that a large number of the "advanced" students could not do what you have posted.

I understand the need for speed, cover, and "combat accuracy", but it all begins with basics - proper grip, sight alignment, and trigger control.

Good shooting with that old fashioned 1911, by the way...

Larry
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Old 03-07-2015, 06:32 PM
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Not beneath me and no disrespect meant, just offering a different perspective.
I didn't see it as disrespectful. I'm just trying to push you to try the challenge.

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Nearly all of my firearm training now is 0-21 feet, threat focused and unsighted.
Yes, I hear this all the time. Out to three yards, maybe 5, I can see using a flash sight picture, even shooting from the hip. Beyond that I don't understand not using the sights. You have the time, why not give yourself the best opportunity to hit? The sights are how that's done.

Have you ever heard of a guy by the name of Jack Weaver? If not, it's worth it to read his story. He was really the first guy to be a staunch proponent of using the sights on a pistol. He won many national titles by using the sights. Sure, it was a tiny bit slower, but far more accurate.
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Old 03-07-2015, 07:46 PM
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Walther PPQ. Should have shot a few rounds first to find POI for my typical hold. I have replaced the front sight on the Walther and it doesn't shoot to a typical POI, but it works for my usual distances, not so much for these distances. The first oval is 2x3, the next is 4x6. (Actually a bit less, but not much.)

Dan Wesson CBOB. Home-made "repair center".
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Old 03-07-2015, 08:13 PM
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I love it! Nice shooting there RV4driver.
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Old 03-07-2015, 08:31 PM
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OK, ok, are you gonna play or not?
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Old 03-07-2015, 09:17 PM
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Default ...and today with my BHP

This group was shot, per the challenge, with my Browning High Power.

Next range trip I'll shoot it with my EDC (Shield 9mm)...prepare to be beaten!
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Old 03-07-2015, 10:29 PM
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Not great, but I don't think it's too bad, either. There's always room for improvement.
In a defensive situation...those 5 would get the job done!
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Old 03-07-2015, 11:12 PM
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In a defensive situation...those 5 would get the job done!
Thanks.
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Old 03-08-2015, 01:36 AM
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This group was shot, per the challenge, with my Browning High Power.
Not bad brother. I loves me some Hi-Power. The last progeny of JMB himself. It's a wonderful gun. I wonder how it would have turned out had he lived a little longer. Sometimes my wife will let me shoot hers.
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Old 03-08-2015, 08:39 AM
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I'll post mine next weekend. I did the 3 and 5 yard shots yesterday, and I'm going to do the 7 yard Saturday afternoon and the 10 yard Sunday morning. Thought I'd get yelled at for posting a picture of the target halfway through . . .
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Old 03-08-2015, 03:22 PM
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Oooh, you're cheating. The idea is to do them all at the same time. Meh, I don't care. It's hard enough just to get people to do it at all.

Go ahead, post the pic of the target you've got so far. I won't yell at you.
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Old 03-08-2015, 03:28 PM
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Oooh, you're cheating. The idea is to do them all at the same time. Meh, I don't care. It's hard enough just to get people to do it at all.

Go ahead, post the pic of the target you've got so far. I won't yell at you.
All shots are fired with the shooters choice of grip and stance and start from the ready position (gun loaded, but not in holster). They are all untimed so, there is no need to hurry.

So what rule are you changing next?
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Old 03-08-2015, 04:43 PM
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All shots are fired with the shooters choice of grip and stance and start from the ready position (gun loaded, but not in holster). They are all untimed so, there is no need to hurry.

So what rule are you changing next?
Even though I'm sure Muss Muggins KNOWS what you meant by "they are all untimed", technically he's got you!
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Old 03-08-2015, 05:11 PM
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Hey, just like I said with the rifle, if that's what it takes to beat me....

At least he's shooting. How many are out there that won't even try?
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Old 03-08-2015, 05:42 PM
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Sweet! I'll try to do it tomorrow after work.
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Old 03-08-2015, 06:06 PM
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I don't have easy access to a range due to my work schedule, but I'll post the description of my last LEOSA qual with my G17 (shortened to G19 butt size and better sights):

At 3 yards, draw and file 4 shots, 2 body, 2 head, 7 seconds.
At 5 yards, draw and fire 3 shots, strong hand only, 5 seconds.
At 5 yards, 3 rounds, support hand only, 7 seconds including switching hands.
At 7 yards, from the ready, 5 rounds, 9 seconds.
At 10 yards, from the ready, 5 rounds, 12 seconds.
At 15 yards, from the ready, 5 rounds, 12 seconds.

25 rounds total, 250 points, 247/250. I think those time limits are unduly generous and try to push myself to as much faster as I can.

Did not do as well with 45ACP revolver, still got 213 with at least 1 dropped shot (0). I don't shoot revolvers much and should do more training with them. A couple years ago I had the same score with .41 loaded with Gold Dot JHP which made me more than a few enemies on the indoor range.
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Old 03-08-2015, 06:23 PM
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I will never understand a concealed carry qualifying score being attained while firing "from the ready . . . "
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Old 03-08-2015, 06:23 PM
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I don't have easy access to a range due to my work schedule,...
A police officer that doesn't have access to a range? That's just wrong on so many levels.

Thanks for posting the qualification test. I'd just like to see guys do the one in the OP first. Then we can move on to other tests.
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Old 03-09-2015, 01:08 PM
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Man! I sure expected alot more people on this forum to participate. Guess we have more "talkers", than "shooters", huh?
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Old 03-09-2015, 01:17 PM
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Man! I sure expected alot more people on this forum to participate. Guess we have more "talkers", than "shooters", huh?
Give some of us some time.
I'd like to become proficient. This challenge seems a way to begin.
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Old 03-09-2015, 02:01 PM
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I made it to the range this morning and ran the challenge.
The only pistol used today was my 9mm Shield (my carry pistol).

The 1st target was shot 'cold' (no Warm Up).
The Orange center on that target is 2" in Diameter.

The 2nd pic of three 6" 'Shoot-N-C' targets are as followed:
Left Target was @ 21', All shots were Controlled Pairs. My Followup shots seem to be going Low-Left.
Center Target was a repeat of the Challenge.
Right Target was at 30', mostly single shots, 1sec-2sec intervals.
For reference, on the 6" Shoot-N-C targets, the distance from one number 9 to the other number 9, is 2" across.

If I can do this with a Little ol' Shield, you guys with the bigger artillery should be able to handle this challenge.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Challenge1.jpg (40.6 KB, 1417 views)
File Type: jpg Challenge2.jpg (50.3 KB, 1356 views)

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Old 03-09-2015, 02:03 PM
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Man! I sure expected alot more people on this forum to participate. Guess we have more "talkers", than "shooters", huh?
Considering the challenge was only posted last Friday, this ain't such a bad turnout... Especially with this weekend's weather.
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Old 03-09-2015, 03:30 PM
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I was able to hit the range this morning to do the challenge. I fired it cold, no warm-up or practice runs.

I used my 642 (stock except for Spegel boot grips), firing Remington UMC Leadless 125gr FNEB.

The gun:



4 rounds @ 3 yards
6 rounds @ 5 yards
6 rounds @ 7 yards
4 rounds @ 10 yards



I'm not sure if the target's dimensions match the B27, so I took a couple more photos with a tape measure for reference:





And for the defense-minded, I did three 5-shot strings, rapid-fire, 1-handed, at 3 yards, using Speer SB-GDHP. The last 5-shot string was fired after drawing from concealment.



I used my Side Guard Quick Clip holster:



Not exactly award-winning marksmanship, but I think it would suffice.

Also noticed my groups concentrating to the left. I'll have to look into that.
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Old 03-09-2015, 03:57 PM
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Went on my lunch break and tried out my "new" 4516. I had a 100rd warm up, but since it's the first time I shot this pistol I think it's fair.

First round at 3, 5, 7 and 10 yards were DA followed with SA. per the rules. Ammo used was Winchester 230gr. ball.

Here's the result....

Well I didn't beat Rastoff. So he was right on that account. At least I have room to improve!

With a ruler.


Last edited by Shorty 45 MK2; 03-09-2015 at 04:00 PM. Reason: Add type of ammo.
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Old 03-09-2015, 04:11 PM
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Went on my lunch break and tried out my "new" 4516. I had a 100rd warm up, but since it's the first time I shot this pistol I think it's fair.

First round at 3, 5, 7 and 10 yards were DA followed with SA. per the rules. Ammo used was Winchester 230gr. ball.
Nicely done.
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Old 03-09-2015, 04:16 PM
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Everybody's targets look really good to me. I'm looking forward to seeing more results.

Thanks for the great thread, Rastoff.
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Old 03-09-2015, 04:24 PM
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Nicely done.
Thank you.

Your's ain't bad either!
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Old 03-09-2015, 04:42 PM
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Thank you.

Your's ain't bad either!
Thanks.
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Old 03-09-2015, 04:54 PM
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When I got my first carry permit in 1985 you had to take a class and then "qualify". It was at about 7 yards, and the target was a round bullseye. You had to just hit the black, a circle about 10" wide, 5 times out of 10. You could shoot any way you wanted. Standing, prone, with a rest, whatever. They said to load 5 rounds, shoot them, and then 5 more. I took my Dad's K-22. Loaded 6 rounds, easily put them in the black from a standing position and stopped. There was an old guy there shooting a single action .22. He put the rest down and was leaning on it, with his hands shaking. For all I know he might still be there.
When Iowa went shall issue they changed the law. Now when you first get the permit you do not have to qualify. However, when you re-qualify you do. Seems kinda stupid to me. When I re-qualified I decided to make it fun. Took my 5" Heavy Duty. Range officer had never seen one. Fired a cylinder full into a tight cluster and quit.
And yes, I do carry it. Was doing so earlier today.
Just because I can.
Jim
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Old 03-09-2015, 06:12 PM
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7yds

Old fat half blind man with an LCP that pretty much has no sights.
I guess that's close to 2x3in that Rastoff is talking about. Do I win a prize?

I rarely slow precision shoot at paper with carry guns other than when the gun is new for POA/POI reference.

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