Good question.

It adds a level of stress.

The one thing we can't simulate is a real situation. No matter how good the exercise, ultimately it isn't real. Therefore, you never know how you'll react when your life is on the line.

The timer adds a little urgency. It's not reality, but it is the least expensive way to add that urgency to your practice.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

Just to add my viewpoint as well - a timer is also another tool to help you measure your progress as a shooter.

Just like as in this challenge and the original challenge, if you shoot it a few times you will most likely notice your groups and your score on the targets getting better. Where the bullets hit on the target is a visual indication that you are improving. Or it can show if you need improvement in some areas (for instance - hits low on the target might indicate you are flinching or jerking the trigger).

A timer can be used in the same manner to help you improve your shooting. It's great if you can draw from the holster and get all your shots in the X-ring, but if it takes, say, 10 seconds to do that, are you as effective as you could be? Wouldn't it be better in a defensive situation if you could get those hits in a shorter period of time?

That's where the timer comes in - it is a tool to measure you progress as you work on gaining speed.

There is a balance between accuracy and speed.

In my self-defense classes we teach the acronym ASP. It stands for accuracy, speed and power. Working backwards, power is what you brought. You can't do anything about this. It is simply what you brought.

Then there is speed. If we can't shoot quickly, the bad guy will shoot us first. Speed comes with practice.

Accuracy is number one though. Anyone can miss quickly. A fast miss gets us nothing. Anyone can be relatively accurate if they take their time. Unfortunately, while you're getting lined up, they're shooting you; not good.

So, first be accurate, then be speedy. If you do both of those properly, power will handle itself.

Balance between speed and accuracy. If you fire two shots quickly and they are more than a fist apart, slow down. If they are really close to each other, speed up. Let the timer gauge your improvement as you keep your shots within a fist of each other, but get faster.

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Thanks for the speedy replies. Maybe I'll request one for my birthday, and see if that works. Rastoff, I like the ASP training statement.

Hope to get a timer from a friend tomorrow and run it with my 642. If I don't post by Friday come threw the computer and kick me out to the range.

As promised, here are the results from the Rastoff's Challenge II for my SIG P250 subcompact .380. It's about the same size and weight as my Shield 9, but carries 12 rounds in a double stack mag. It has a very smooth double action trigger, and the low-recoil .380 round makes it easy to hold on target. The result: a tie with my Shield, and a perfect score of 250. Both targets are attached below.

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Here's my attempt at the challenge.



(The rip at about 1:00 is from part of the log back stop bouncing back.) Can't get the photo to rotate in Imageshack.

Shot this drawing with my hand on the gun starting in my pocket for each string. I brought a timer but the battery was dead... I know. Should have spares. So I'm not sure of my times but pretty sure they were under as I tried to shoot at a fast pace.

Not happy with the group but 248/250 gives room for improvement.

Excuse time!

Shot this cold (per the rules) after not shooting since late May (do to weather/being busy.) and with my weak side hand as that's where the 642 gets carried as a BUG. (Did use both hands but my left was the "main".

Weak side hand? Impressive!

I have the timer but unfortunately the only place that I have to shoot is my local gun club and they no longer allow human silhouette targets. I know, I know. It's time to find another club that does. If this is still going in a few weeks, I'll see if my buddy, who I'll be traveling to visit in a couple of weeks, wants to give it a go. He owns property that we can shoot on.

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I reckon so

No, it's a practice target for bowling pin matches!

Thank you swsig, but using two hands really helps. Still feels weird.

Might want to think about shooting for the pelvic girdle.......a shattered hip will put them on the ground ..... and it doesn't bob and weave as much as a head.

Just found this second Rastoff Challenge thread....... as I mentioned in the first Challenge thread (post # 283) with luck; tomorrow (8/9) I'm off to my first IDPA match in at least 5 years.

So this morning I "finally" got to the range for the first time in way toooo long....

I was going to do the 1st Challenge..... but really felt the need to warm up for tomorrow..............

I'm only posting here because; I only had B-27 targets for Practice and I saw that is what Rastoff was using in this second challenge....

I fired 40 rounds (9mm) using a Beretta EliteII (double action first shot) and a Wilson Combat Tactical Assault Holster.......at 10 yds..... about half were "draw and fire one round" the rest were "draw and fire 2 rounds". So 30 presentations......

I fired another 20 rounds at 5yds one handed 15 strong hand and 5 weak hand.

Final 11 rounds were at 5 yds.... draw and fire one round ....point shooting.....

The final round surprised me a bit ...... 2-8s, 4-9s , and 5-10s 2X.

Overall all shots were inside the 8 ring .... with 7-8s (two were weak hand and two were point shooting)....overall just tooo messy to really score as I used one B-27 target and 2 8-10 ring overlays (one overlay has 11 holes, one has 31 and the Target itself has 71)........ and I have one hole about the size of 2-3 quarters (15-20 shots ????) that splits the 9/10 rings.....


As someone mentioned these are not the best/most realistic targets..... IMO the 10 and X rings are too low....... I will generally hold and look to hit/ group between the numbers 8 and 9 at 12 O'clock..........high center mass.


Finally" I know "no pictures or it didn't happen"....about 6 years ago we put a house rule in effect "no picture posting on the Internet"... with 2 teenagers (now 15 and 17) judgment isn't always the best.......sometimes "the rule" bites me in the butt...... butt such is life

Nicely done..... one handed...... DAO......... two thumbs up!!!!

drawing from your pocket......... a braver man than Me

I wish I was that good! But used both just used my left as the one pulling the trigger.

I figured since this was more of a carry gun shoot I'd draw from where it gets carried. (Also was in a holster.)

Simple solution; cut the target off at the head. You still have the whole scoring area to use and it's no longer a "human" silhouette.

I used the B-27 in the first challenge too.


I like your plan with your kids and your integrity of following your own rule. I don't know if this will fit within your rules, but you can email me the pic and I can post it "pro tem" for you?

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Freedom isn't free.

Someone offered the same on another Forum where everyone shoots CZ rifles.....and discussing the kind of groups we were getting from these fairly reasonably priced rimfires. Decided that I wouldn't accept "bending the rule" from my kids... so I shouldn't start doing it myself!

Being a Lawyer you'd think I'd know better than to speak in haste at the dinner table......LOL

While my groups with the CZs weren't any better than a lot of others were shooting.... I didn't get any "street cerd" until four of us got together for a weekend shoot in Va. LOL Spending eight years on High School and College Rifle Teams helped.

Besides my target yesterday really doesn't make the grade in either Rastoff Challenge...........was just pleased with my personal performance after a long hiatus ..... hope I'm able to do as well today. My goal will be to shoot A's and not worry about the clock/timer.

Cuz........ I'll be the "New kid in school" today......... with a gun!



WOW.....Talk about being responsible for "Thread Drift"

Been following this, and finally gave it a unofficial try this morning. Shot the course of fire that they teach and use at our range.....(following their rules) which is: 2 strings of 5 shots each at 5, 7, and 10 yards, with a reload between each string. Total of 30.
Shot and reloaded as fast I could at each distance. The nines were just plain sloppiness on my part, and the target sure aint nothing to write home about. We're trying to learn to shoot fast double action, and get that rythym/cadence thing down....our old Sheriff called "rollin' it", and man, he was good at it.
Don't laugh, but this is the best I've done yet trying to shoot it fast.
Thanks for the invite Mr. Rastoff;
Bill

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Well to close out my "thread drift".....I shot match a IDPA match today and boy did I suck!!!!

Have a long list of excuses ...LOL... but I need to deal with some vision/glasses issues......and trigger time!!!!!!

On one stage..... on the walk through.... one guy said...."Tactically if I was faced with this situation..... " (to paraphrase) "I wouldn't be backing away shooting each "shooter" once while moving towards cover.........I be turning tail and running!!!!!

another stage

5 targets at 5-7 yds........shooter/you start standing behind 2 no-shoots .....while backing up engage each target with one round...... then from behind cover engage each shooter with an additional 2 rounds......3 of the 5 "shooters" were screened by no-shoots or partially blocked by cover......and the origional 2 no-shoots you are standing with just stand there........

bottom line....... I need some range time......and need to figure out the cataract/glasses thing!

I went to the range yesterday to give this another try. This time I used my slightly modified M&P40.

Since some people might be interested, here is a list of the mods done to the pistol:

Dawson Precision adjustable sights
Speed Shooter Specialties Tungsten Guide Rod
ISMI 17lb recoil spring
Apex Tactical Flat Face trigger and Forward Set Sear kit
LF-Arms extended magazine release

This was shot cold - these were my first shots downrange this day.

I know it is not a requirement, but to make this challenge a little more, shall we say, challenging, I began all strings drawing from a holster. I was using my brand-new Safariland 5198.

I also don't have the B-27 target, so I was using a B-24, which has scoring rings that are a bit smaller.

Here is the target and pistol:

IMG_0187 by John, on Flickr

I also had a video camera with me and recorded my attempt.

This may not be the most exiting 11 minutes of cinematography you will see in your lifetime, but I didn't want to edit anything out because: (a) it might give people who would like to do this but don't have a timer an idea of the par times (b) I know there is an honor system with these challenges, but I wanted to show that there was no "fudging" going on here, and the challenge was shot true to form (c) as Rastoff pointed out in the OP, editing video is painfully tedious, and I didn't feel like doing it - if some parts are too boring you are more than welcome to skip ahead yourself.

I don't see a link to a video. Good shooting.

Thank you. I don't know why you can't see the video link - it shows up on my computer.

Fantastic shooting jdesro1911.

For the record, the target he used is smaller than the one I used in the OP. The shot he put in the 8 ring on his target would be in the 9 ring on the one I used.

Gentlemen, this is the goal of this challenge. Get out there and practice shooting from the holster. The times are extremely generous. The size of the target is generous as well.

Also, thanks for the video jdesro1911. You're right about how tedious video editing can be. Just downloading it can take forever. So, even though you didn't edit it, I appreciate the time it took just to shoot it and load it on the net.

One more thing, I a very much liked your reholstering technique. It was very deliberate and methodical. You didn't just slam it in there. You put it away slowly, reluctantly. This is how it should be done. A good example for us all.

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Freedom isn't free.

A problem on my end, got it fixed. I select you and Rastoff for my team.

B27E target, low ready, CORE 9 w/ RMR, strong hand only

- I just got the RMR and shot it some for zeroing and familiarization before starting.
- I failed the par time on the very first shot. I brought the gun up and couldn't find the dot. Everything else was within par.
- I forgot to move the target back at one point and had to reshoot a few rounds.
- I shot most strings much faster than necessary.
- The RMR will take a lot of time to get used to.
- I suck.

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Nice shooting V0OBWxZS16. You don't suck. You scored 100% on that target. The times are very generous on this challenge. Did you shoot from the holster or from the ready?

Using an RMR on a pistol is more challenging than most people think. If you're not practiced at bringing the gun up, on sights, already, it can be very hard to find the dot.

I have one on my M&P 45, but I think I'm going back to regular sights. Not sure yet, but time will tell.

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Freedom isn't free.

I shot from low ready as I stated in my first line. The target is not 100% because of the penalty for failing the first par time. I also pulled about a dozen rounds into the 9 ring, but that doesn't count against the official score.

I have very little experience with RDS on pistols, but greater height above the slide seems to give me additional trouble. Isn't yours on a dovetail mount?

Sorry, I missed where you said from the low ready.

Yes, mine is not only on a dovetail, but an adapter as well. It's really high.



The height isn't so bad for me. It's the lack of reference. I'm used to having both sights to help me line things up. Without that reference, you really need to have the gun level right off. Otherwise, the dot can be hard to find.

I'm thinking of having the slide milled to get the RMR lower. Then I would add supressor sights. I believe this would help tremendously.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

Is this done from the holster, or low ready?

The challenge is done from the holster just like I showed in the video. It's really easy. Give it a try.

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Freedom isn't free.

Video doesn't show for me.

Thanks for the info.

You can't see the video in the OP? OK, here's a direct link:
Anyway, the idea was to use the Texas CHL test and times, but do it from the holster. People were complaining that my first "challenge" wasn't representative of a real defensive situation so, I made up this one. It has time pressure and presenting from the holster.

The times are far too generous, but they are there. In fact, I think this one is far easier than the original challenge. I'm surprised that very few have tried it.

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Freedom isn't free.