Well, we had fun with the first one (still going by the way) so, I decided to ramp it up a little. One of the respondents in the first challenge sent me the Texas Concealed Handgun License Proficiency Demonstration Course of Fire which you can read here: https://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/CHL/Li...QualCourse.pdf So, I'm not going to write it here.


This time I videoed the whole thing:


Still learning how to do videos so, this is not that great and took hours to get finished and uploaded. One day I'll get this figured out.

Here's the results on the target:


The way this is scored is with the small "scoring" target in the upper left hand corner. This method gives 5 points for everything inside the 8 ring, 4 points for the 7 ring, 3 points for outside the 7, but still on the silhouette and 0 for anything not on the silhouette. So, my score is 250/250. I did drop one shot in the 8 ring, but the rest were in the 9 or better. Also, the test calls for a B-27, but I used a B-27E. The target I had is too short and not the right color. Oh well, I guess it will just have to do.

You'll notice that I didn't rush or try to be super fast. I shot this cold. The first shot you see me take was the first shot I took all day. The one hit in the 8 ring was actually the first shot of the pair in stage 2 part B from 7 yards. I guess I wasn't concentrating hard enough.

So, get out there and try this one. Post pics of your targets. I've attached my split times below.

My sympathies go out to our brethren in the East. The temp got to about 75°F today with a slight breeze. Maybe tomorrow will warm up a little.

Attached Files

CHL Times with times.pdf (190.6 KB, 218 views)

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

I have no timer.

David

Don't have timer or pic. But do have the target from the last time I had to shoot the Texas CHL qual. (4/11/2009) I scored perfect. The class was at Tac Pro in Mingus, TX. tacproshootingcenter.com

- 9 in the 9 ring
- 12 in the blank ring between 9 and X
- 29 in the X

I was shooting my old Star PD loaded with CCI Blazer 230 TMJ. Holster was a custom made for me by my brother-in-law. Thanks Sonny!

Due to a good change in the law in 2013, we no longer have to shoot for renewals. And the whole renewal process is done on line, with a payment for vets of $25 vs. $70 standard fee. And if you are a vet, the CHL itself is now marked VETERAN, which is nice. Pretty smooth and easy process.

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USAF, 69-92
Vietnam, 72-73

We got all the way up to 56* yesterday! Yeah, I was running around with no coat! Like the first challenge, I'll have to do this one too. But it may be a week or so before I can go to the range.

L8R,
Matt

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SD40-VE owner and proud of it!

FYI, note that this target is designed so that the shooter is trained to shoot FAR too low. The 10/10X should be centered about where the 8 is, extending up to about the bottom of the printed number "7", and down to about the bottom of the printed "9". It also does not have the head/neck target areas delineated.

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NHI, 10-8.

Do you have a smart phone?

That's some decent shooting, but did you do it from the holster?

**Sigh** "The target is wrong" "The times aren't realistic" "It's too sunny out" For crying out loud, so what?

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Freedom isn't free.

Yup , the "scoring in the upper corner" is the Training and Qualification scoring aka T&Q . The blank space between the 9 and the X. , is otherwise known as the Ten ring.

For a cpl decades the B-27 using the T&Q scoring was the overwhelming choice for LE and armed security training and qualifing. By the end of the Revolver Era , the FBI "Q" target aka Milk Bottle had started making inroads.

There was discussion in the traing community that the 5 pt area on the B-27 was too large , but the B"27 was a big improvement over the older Colt Suiloutte.

I had the concept that it would be more meaningful to tighten the T&Q scoring by one ring - ie X,10, 9 = 5pt , 8 = 4pt , etc . Or just use the Competion scoring where 10=10, 9=9 , etc , and a 50rd cof will be based upon 500pts .

Target selection has been kick around forever, and a lot comes to the priorities.

An Agency has an over riding goal of producing "qualified" warm bodies with minimized expense, meaning ammo costs , wages of qualifees while at range , and minimizing remeadial training ( or what passes for it) . Oh , and give an impression of a usefull level of actual skill.

Thoughtful people who want to increase actual usefull skills want a target with scoring areas more closely aproximating the actual vital/ incapacitating areas , and have them located more anotomically correctly. As a gov't roadblock to exercising a Fundamental Right , it should be - 3 feet , 1 round , no time limit , anywhere on the black outline of B-27 = pass.

Really, it's practice. SO GET OUT AND SHOOT.


I was just reviewing smartphone apps for timers. Anyone have one they recommend?

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~ From the Land of Lobstah ~

Last time I shot to qualify, I scored 248/250. All of my shots were within the two inner rings, but one... it was down in the lower left of the silhouette where yours is stapled, wrist shot. I really think that shot came from the guy in the lane next to me.

Oh, low ready, as required on test... not from holster.

I'm not much on competitions or challenges but this looks like a good training tool.

I think this is almost as bad as Missouri's qualification test. (Sarcasm intended from here on.) We also use the B27 target but we shoot 20 shots at 7 yds. You have to put 15 of the 20 into the silhouette. You can use any hand gun and yes they make you shoot with your eyes open.

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Quando omni flunkus moritati.

That's some decent shooting, but did you do it from the holster?

Thanks. Some yes, some no. Six years ago!

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USAF, 69-92
Vietnam, 72-73

Exactly! This is not about who's better than who. It's about trigger time. I posted it as a "challenge" to entice people, to give them a standard to shoot for.

Yeah, during the actual qualification, you will be required to do it from the low ready. I do the same thing on my test. The main reason is safety. Many are very unsafe when presenting from the holster. So, unless I've trained them or know where they got their training, I require shooting from the low ready.

Obviously, I have a timer so, I haven't used the phone. Still, there are many that are free or only a couple of dollars. From what I've heard, they work OK.

Doug M.,
My apologies for being surly. I just want to keep this on track as a training tool. Your comment is well taken.

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Freedom isn't free.

This is very tempting. I downloaded the COF when it was posted in the other thread to use in the future.

The range I normally use is only 10 yards, but there's another range about an hour or so from me that goes to 25 yards with computerized turning targets. I'm pretty sure I could set them for the required time intervals. I've never used turning targets before so it should be a good learning experience. The only reactionary shooting I've done before is having an instructor yelling which target or which part of the target to hit.

Plus, I've always wanted to see what I can do with my 642 at 25 yards. I could do that while I'm there.

I can't afford to go to the range very often so I'm not sure when I'll be going, but I definitely want to try this challenge.

Just a little side note, since this is kind of my fault.

I like the way Rastoff took the test - it is certainly a realistic way to present the "problem". It's just not practical for most CHL candidates.

I shall elaborate.....:

The Texas CHL test is literally designed to be a test of handgun competency. It's not supposed to be a test of athletics, speed, combat proficiency, etc. Handgun competency, arguably, includes (i) the ability to load your own weapon (not as easy as it sounds - some people can't rack slides on pistols and some folks have great difficulty loading magazines - which is why we tell them to use revolvers), (ii) control your weapon, and (iii) use it with a certain modicum of accuracy.

Safety at the range is VERY important.

Bearing those things in mind.....

Safety first - I imagine that there very few folks reading this that cannot pass the Texas CHL shooting test whilst firing from the holster. The problem, however, is that only certain guns are safe to do that with. I cannot see Rastoff's gun clearly but I think it is a Glock. A Glock, or any revolver, or any Glock-similar, striker fired pistol, can be re-holstered with no particular effort. However, there is no way on this planet that we, as instructors, would ever permit novice shooters, and SO MANY CHL candidates are competent but still novices, to re-holster a loaded pistol without de-cocking it (and you shouldn't really be holstering a cocked pistol, anyway, unless it's cocked and locked a la a Colt 1911 or a Browning HP). I, personally, wouldn't do it with my traditional double action pistols so I certainly wouldn't permit it to be done by a novice. The point, therefore, is that for every shot taken by a competent novice, or every group of shots, the novice has to de-cock her/his pistol, re-holster, and then draw and fire, and then do it over.

That will take longer than you think, and in a large class that would be annoying - and that also virtually guarantees that some folks will fail the test, just from sheer nervousness, and some folks will definitely screw up the de-cocking and have an AD.

So, good job, Rastoff, but it's not a good plan for the "folks". If I try to take the challenge the way you did I'd use a revolver just to avoid the whole de-cocking bit or, maybe, a High Power, because pressing a safety on and off is no big deal for me.

As for the target - remember - competency is the key, not top notch special operations skill.

I am fairly certain that in the beginning of the CHL system in Texas the head and torso were combined into the 5 points. I could be wrong but I understood that they removed the head shots from the 5 point "ring" down to 3 points to discourage foolishness because the folks who were good with their guns would, as you might expect, try to get the best score on the hardest part of the target, or shoot "faces" into the target, etc. Again, safety is imperative, no tomfoolery should be permitted, and because you will be asked to scatter your shots in the 5 ring if you're that good. The instructor cannot score a target with a 5 inch gaping hole in it. It's pass or fail, not show off or shut up - so the instructor wants to see countable bullet holes, for the most part.

There are very few ranges in this neck of the woods who will permit drawing from the holster, anyway. Too risky, and almost every range has a table in front of the shooters so it becomes impractical from the standpoint of drawing and smacking guns into the table edges. Again, I really like the way Rastoff did it - but it's not every one of us who can access an open range as he did.

I admit it, though - I really wanna!!!!!!!!!!!

***GRJ***

I'm pretty confident I could pass this COF from low ready, but I'd really like to try it drawing from concealment both as a challenge and to add another defensive skill to practice. Hopefully my alternate range will allow it. I've never had a problem with it at my usual range, probably because I've never shot anything I wasn't supposed to.

Not your "fault", but you did provide the course of fire. That made my part easier.

I completely agree. I didn't quote everything you said for brevity's sake, but I will comment on all of it. Yes, the goal of the shooting in a concealed carry class is, and should be, more about competency with a handgun than ability to survive the zombie apocalypse. This is why my test is only 20 shots done without time. It's also why I stop at 10 yards. If I lengthened it to 15 I would have a lot of students fail. Not because they can't shoot, but because they are so nervous.

Neither do I allow shooting from the holster. The exception I make for that is if they have received training from me or a school I'm familiar with; Front Sight, Gunsight, Thunder Ranch are all schools I'd accept.

I know I sped up the film for time sake. Still, if you watch starting at 6:24 you'll see me re-holster. Notice that I do it in a very specific way and very deliberately.

Soon I will post a video on the 5 step presentation. This will demonstrate how to present your gun from the holster. If done properly, a table being in front of you shouldn't be an issue.

A Glock? A GLOCK?!?! Can't see it clearly? Was the pic in the first challenge not clear enough? You wound me sir. That fine firearm is the design ordained by God Himself and executed by His prophet John Moses Browning. Namely the 1911 as interpreted by the current master pistol smith Ed Brown. To mistake it for a plastic Austrian nightmare is heresy at the least and pure blasphemy to those of us who know quality firearms. OK, I'm just kidding. Glock fans please don't send any more hate mail. Yes, I holster it in Condition 1 i.e. cocked and locked. If you listen closely, you can hear the click of the safety going on before I move to holster it.

By all means do it from the low ready. Once you lean, and have time to practice the presentation, then try it that way.

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Freedom isn't free.

I'm comfortable with drawing from concealment then firing. But I will consider your advice. Thanks.

I dug the video...thanks for putting it on high speed and entertaining us with some music.

My latest CCW pistol makes this look EASY.

20140528_200142_LLS by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr

I was so eager to try this challenge I went to the range this morning. I had to go to a different range because my usual range is limited to 10yds. This alternate range has a 25yd max distance and programmable turning targets, so when doing the TX CHL COF I was able to program the targets to be exposed for the time specified for each string.

I didn't run it cold. Since I had the opportunity to try my 642 at 25yds I wanted to do that first. So I fired 10 rounds of SB-GDHP, 2-handed, standing, unsupported, to see what would happen. It wasn't pretty.



After that rousing start I proceeded to shoot the challenge. I decided to take Rastoff's advice and run the challenge as specified, starting from low ready. I wanted to focus on my marksmanship skills, such as they are, rather than draw mechanics. I shot the challenge using my 642 and PMC 132gr FMJ. And here's the result:



The only problem is that the target I used isn't the same as B27 specs, so when I got home I did some research and a little measuring.

B27 Specs
*8-ring: ~11.75" wide x ~17.5" tall
*7-ring: ~15.75" wide x ~23.5" tall

The B27 8-ring is the same height as my target's 8-ring but the same width as my target's 7-ring.

Here are a couple of pictures with a tape measure showing what the B27 7-ring would approximate on my target:





And a close up showing one shot just outside the B27 7-ring measurement:



So, if I measured everything correctly, I had 1 shot outside the B27 7-ring but on the silhouette, 2 shots in the 7-ring, and the rest in the 8-ring for a total score of 246/250, or 98.4%.

FYI, all of the shots outside the 9-ring were from 15yds. Today was the first time I'd fired my 642 past 10yds.

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to make sure I documented and shared everything. I suppose it would've been easier if I had just gotten some B27 targets.

ISCS yoda,

TacPro is only a few hours west of you, just off I-20. They've got a schoolhouse with a 25 yd. range, no tables, and two 50 yd. ranges, no tables. No rules, just keep it safe. Drawing from your holster is perfectly OK. All outdoors.

tacproshootingcenter.com

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USAF, 69-92
Vietnam, 72-73

Hey, good shooting ContinentalOp. I'm glad you were able to get out and shoot it. What kind of times did you get? Did you use a timer or just guess (which is fine)?

I'm surprised that you're the only one to even try. Lots of complaints the first challenge was too easy (none of those that complained about that actually posted a target). Lots of discussion about how this target isn't good enough. Yet, only one has actually tried it. Hmmm, I guess they're all just full of talk and no action.

Come on guys, I did it and posted my target. I don't think I'm a great shot, but at least I was willing to put my shooting where my mouth is. Lots of talk, but very few actual shooters. I guess it's all just talk then...?

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Freedom isn't free.

Oh I'll be doing this, but as one of your "Brethren in the East" I haven't seen temps go above 40 yet this year. I need some bare ground showin brother.

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~ From the Land of Lobstah ~

I usually run this 'TX' run once a Month, just for the heck of it, but never actually take pics of my results.

Since I'm picking up a new Blackhawk Convertible next week, I'll run the challenge with it and see how I do with a handgun I'm completely unfamiliar with... and one with my Shield.
(remember to take pics... remember to take pics... Remember...)

Thanks.

I don't have a timer so I don't know what my times were, but the range I went to has programmable turning targets. I set them to expose the targets for the time limits on each string. If the time limit was 2 seconds it would start with the edge toward me, expose the target for 2 seconds, then turn back to the edge, so it added some reaction practice, too. It definitely made it more challenging.

Gotcha. I completely understand. I dislike shooting in the cold too.

If you don't, just tell us you did it and how you did it. We won't hold "no pics" against you...much.

That would be totally awesome! I wish I had that here.

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Freedom isn't free.

It's definitely nice to have that option. Unfortunately it's range fee is 50% more than my usual range, plus it's further away. I definitely plan on returning, though. There's a little baseline drill I've always wanted to try and the turning targets would be perfect for it.

Try this:
3 yards, from the holster- 1.6 seconds - CP
5 yards, from the holster- 1.8 seconds - CP
5 yards, from the low ready- 1.4 seconds - CP
5 yards, from the holster- 2 seconds- HS
7 yards, from the holster- 2.4 seconds- CP
7 yards, from the holster- 2.6 seconds- HS
10 yards, from the holster- 3 seconds- CP
10 yards, from the holster- 3.4 seconds- HS
15 yards, from the holster- 3.8 seconds- CP

CP= Controlled Pair
HS= Head Shot (center of head in a 3"x4" box)

I didn't include "failure to stop" shots because I don't know how much you can program into the targets.

This is really ratcheting to the next level. These are the times I strive for and what we all should work at. With the turning targets this becomes real. You can't shoot after the time because the target isn't there. The turning targets really add stress and make the practice more valuable.

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Freedom isn't free.

Thanks for the drills. Just the type of thing I was going to try. The specific drill I was going to try is almost exactly like the first one you listed: React, draw from concealment, fire 2 shots into an IPSC A-zone, from 2 yards, in 2 seconds or less. I first read about it maybe 20 years ago or so. At the time it was called a 2-2-2 drill but I think that refers to a different exercise now. An instructor used it as a baseline drill to assess his students' performances.

I'm going to give them a try next time I can get to that range. I may round up your times, though. At least to start with.

I ran the TX qualification "for grins" with some office friends.

I fired the test using a 9mm (Taurus PT92) I had been sent to the range with by a co-worker, as he was concerned / convince that my service .45 would tear up my arthritic hands. I had not fired a handgun in 26 years.

I qualified at 249 of 250. Granted for someone who fired expert marksman in 1969, it would be the shame of a lifetime, but reality has settled in with cancer today.

My OCS range officer would have put me on KP for such a mess, but I was happy all the rounds were on paper.

I'll try to find the target and post a pick. I can take a public shaming.

Well... I finally picked up the new Blackhawk Convertible, so I ran the TX CHL routine with it twice... Once with the 38/357 cylinder and once with the 9mm cylinder.

This was the very 1st time shooting any Blackhawk.

at 3' and 15', everything was in the orange (as I'd expect).
Things opened up a bit @ 21' and 30', but was able to keep everything in the Black.
The target used was a standard range target. The Black (9 ring) area is 5.5" in diameter.

Attached Images

CHL-Challenge-NMRB.jpg (116.7 KB, 62 views)

Nice shooting RobzGuns, but which challenge did you shoot? This one only has three distances; 3 yards, 7 yards and 15 yards. Maybe you were doing the original challenge, but posted your results here?

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Freedom isn't free.

I'll give this a go maybe next weekend, but this month for sure. I need to build myself a portable stand/target holder and get a hold of some proper targets.

ADDED:

Just downloaded a shot timer app.

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MSP - Retired

Went to the range today as I do each Monday morning that I possibly can. Wanted to try out the challenge II, which is the Texas CHL course. When I originally shot the course to get my CHL, I didn't pay any attention to the score, just the fact that I had passed.

Today, I shot the course three times, the first with a S&W 1911 Sc, the second with an M&P 40c and the third with a SIG p226 in 40 S&W. The 1911 required using Kentucky windage as the sights were off and I didn't have a tool to make the necessary adjustments. Had a shot in the 7 ring with the M&P 40 that I can't explain. Anyway the photos speak for themselves.

Attached Images

	DSC_0105.jpg (63.6 KB, 53 views)
	DSC_0107.jpg (57.0 KB, 53 views)
	DSC_0109.jpg (56.8 KB, 48 views)
	DSC_0110.jpg (45.0 KB, 50 views)

I have several but at the indoor range I can't get the threshold set right. I cranked it to max then it couldn't read my 45 ACP. Starting backing it off got it just right and a guy 4 lanes over opens up with a AR15. Hard to get the range to myself.

These times are petty easy and I am sure I can shoot them with out going over time. I will just shoot fast and pass. Don

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USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

Today we don't give the scores, just P or F. It avoids any controversy if a CHL holder is involved in a shooting - you know, "If you scored 250 and are such a great shot why didn't you wound him?"

And so it goes...........

Shot this today with my M&P9 Compact.

All strings began drawing from an IWB holster (no concealment).

I didn't record my times but all shots were within the required time limits.

Also, I don't have a B-27 target so I was using a B-24, which I think has smaller scoring rings.

Anyway, here is the target with my M&P for size comparison.

IMG_0114 by John, on Flickr

Yep, the B-24 is smaller. That is a perfect score. Thanks for joining in on the fun.

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Freedom isn't free.

I went to the range today and took the Rastoff Challenge II, no draw (not allowed). I also didn't have a timer, but since the TX CHL rules are generous, I'm sure I got off all shots within the time limits. I used three of my semi-autos, my M&P 40c, my Shield 9, and my SIG P320c 9. Here are the results, along with the target photos:

I shot the worst with the 40c, with three shots out of the 5-point zone, all from 15 yards. Since I practice a lot at 15 yards, I was surprised to see these flyers. For ammo, I was shooting Win Ranger 180 FMJs for the very first time, so that could be the explanation. Yeah, that's the ticket, it's the ammo...

Nevertheless, under the generous scoring system, I got 246 out of a maximum of 250.

In second place was my SIG P320c, using American Eagle 147 FMJ. The SIG is very accurate, and here I only had one shot out of the 5-point zone, for a total of 249.

And now to the winner. As good as the SIG and 40c are, they couldn't beat out the humble little Shield, which scored a perfect 250 using ordinary Win 115. I've also shot the Shield a lot at 15 yards, and I've never seen it more accurate. It's amazing for such a short barrel. It must have been me, it couldn't have been the ammo...

I still have one gun left, a SIG P250sc .380. I'll put it through the Rastoff Challenge II in the next couple of weeks.

Thanks to Rastoff for thinking this up -- it was fun!

Attached Images

	IMG_0107.jpg (43.7 KB, 117 views)
	IMG_0104.jpg (43.0 KB, 112 views)
	IMG_0112.jpg (40.1 KB, 119 views)

Excellent shooting!!!!!

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MSP - Retired

*
Sorry for the late reply, but I don't recall seeing this before. My concern was that if one trains to do well on that target, one is not training to place shots where they need to be. When I start training with organizations that have worked hard to make/use targets that are anatomically valid, it was not an easy transition.I was not trying to mindlessly quibble.

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NHI, 10-8.

It's all good Doug.

Your comments are not invalid. However, this is not now, nor was it ever intended to be a comprehensive self-defense training. It's just an exercise in shooting that uses the Texas CHL qualification.

Also, it is intended to reach the broadest range of shooters possible. The B-27 target is extremely common. So, it's readily available for every shooter. Also, many ranges don't allow the "anatomically correct" targets you're talking about.

If you like, you can draw a line horizontally across the target where the numbers are. Then keep all your shots inside the 8 ring and above the line. This will satisfy what you're saying.

Further, while a shot in the X on the B-27 may not be in the optimal spot, it will still stop most bad guys.

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Freedom isn't free.

Used a timer for the first time ever today.....definitely adds a new dimension to shooting....I like it a lot!!!

Rastoff, I printed out your results sheet and wrote my results on it. This course wouldn't have been nearly as fun without a timer.

Since my target stand is small and square, I had to fold the head portion of the B27 target over the top in order to be able to shoot the center. Here are some pics I took of the target before and after, and my results.

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MSP - Retired

I love it. Excellent shooting. Good hits and faster than me (which is not hard to do ). And you scored 100%.

I think this challenge is easier than the first. Still, it gets you moving.

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Freedom isn't free.

Thanks Rastoff. Yes, easier than the first one and more fun.
With the timer, actually enjoyed it more and felt that I had made way better use of that 50 rounds and time spent as opposed to just going out and flat-blasting through a box of ammo.

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MSP - Retired

I buy my special targets at Walmart. They are white, round, 9" inches in diameter. They come in plastic packages of 70 and cost $3.94 plus tax.

I set them up at 25 feet and any round in the 9" diameter is scored a hit, any outside are scored as a miss.

Quibble about my criteria, but as someone pointed out, it's practice.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

Since not many people are trying this challenge, let's explore something else; value of target shape.

Doug has brought up an interesting subject. He has said that the center of the B-27 target is not the optimal location for a defensive hit. I agree. In fact, I believe this target is a better representative of where a good stopping hit should be:


However, the question is, does it matter? What if I only use the paper plates GaryS suggests? does that compromise my ability to get a good hit on a bad guy? Or is it just the silhouette like the B-27 with the center X being too low that's bad? Or is it even bad?

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Freedom isn't free.

Maybe we should just shoot for the neck or head area in case the bad guy is wearing body armor?

Seriously now, I'd be happy with any hit to the torso, lower mid or upper, of a bad guy. If he doesn't go down in one or two shots and is still a threat, then I'll aim for the head.

Remember guys, you do not intend to kill in a self defense encounter. Your intent is just to stop the threat. If the bad guy happens to die as a result, too bad for him.

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MSP - Retired

I don't think it makes a bit of difference. The bad guys won't have neatly defined scoring rings drawn on them - either center chest or center sternum like the B-27.

I would think (hope) anybody carrying a firearm for self-defense would have enough knowledge to know where the best area on a human is to make the most effective hits.

I can't imagine anyone who finds themselves in a lethal encounter will be thinking to themselves "Well, the B-27 has the X-ring in the gut - so that means I should shoot this bad guy in the gut, too!" Pew, pew!!

It's just a target - maybe a little outdated, sure, but I certainly don't see it as being a detriment to self defense practice.

Question for Rastoff as the experienced, and Bob O as the beginning timer shooter.

I don't have and don't expect to acquire a timer in the near future, (old, fixed income guy), but my curiosity is stirred. What benefit does the timer bring to the table? I understand that getting off accurate shots in a timely manner is the goal in a defensive situation. But what else would I expect? I've never had any formal firearms training except in the National Guard way back in the day.