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Old 05-28-2015, 12:25 AM
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Default Qualifications to Conceal Carry

What is your opinion on the minimum accuracy a shooter should possess before being permitted to conceal carry a handgun?
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Old 05-28-2015, 12:44 AM
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I like how the law reads in my state. I am just going from memory here, but the way the law reads, you must have a gun.


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Old 05-28-2015, 12:44 AM
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About the same pattern as a 12 ga. defensive shotgun at 7 yards, loaded with double ought buck. In 5 seconds for five rounds.
I think this should be a personal qualification, not a government one.
We aren't doing police work. Just need to carry for personal defense.
Washington State has no qualifications, other than to be a good citizen. Should we need a degree in Divinity to go to our place of Worship? Or, public speaking to exercise our First Amendment rights? I think not!

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Old 05-28-2015, 12:48 AM
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"Washington State has no qualifications, other than to be a good citizen. Should we need a degree in Divinity to go to our place of Worship? Or, public speaking to exercise our First Amendment rights? I think not!"


Or should we have a test before you have the right to vote?
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Old 05-28-2015, 01:08 AM
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Washington is a "shall issue" state. If you are 21 or older your local police must issue you a concealed pistol license if they can not find something about you that makes it illegal for you to own a hand gun. Despite that both Seattle and Bellevue created excuses to not issue licenses and had to be sued to force them to comply with the law. Those are good examples of why I'm against giving bureaucrats a way to justify not issuing CPLs. licenses.
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Old 05-28-2015, 01:29 AM
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Some folks think a pie plate at ten yards is good enough. I suppose it is. I think half a pie plate or smaller is better yet.

But there's a whole heck of a lot more to it than accuracy.

It all starts with situational awareness.
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Old 05-28-2015, 01:46 AM
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I support constitutional carry. Having taught Concealed carry classes for more than one state, I believe Government required shooting tests are asinine and ineffective in preventing either accidents or crime.

Classes in laws are informative and useful, but states without shooting requirements have records as good or better than states that do in terms of safety and law compliance.

I believe in personal responsibility and individual training.

Literacy tests to vote were declared unconstitutional, as being a thinly veiled way of denying rights to citizens.
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Old 05-28-2015, 06:42 AM
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The last time I checked the 2nd amendment doesn't say "a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed...as long as you pass a training class."
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Old 05-28-2015, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by KF-NYC View Post
What is your opinion on the minimum accuracy a shooter should possess before being permitted to conceal carry a handgun?
First, if you live in "NYC", fuggetaboudit...no concealed carry for you!

Take the required course, know your laws, practice, consider taking extra training and keep practicing. If you do this the "minimum accuracy" concern will take care of itself.
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Old 05-28-2015, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
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What is your opinion on the minimum [accuracy] competency a shooter should possess before [being permitted to]they exercise their constitutional right to conceal carry a handgun?
Delete and replace [ ]ed material.......................


There fixed it for you...............................
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Old 05-28-2015, 08:54 AM
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Not to start yet another firestorm, but the premise "a well regulated militia" could easily be read to imply well-regulated in the sense of trained and competent, so asking that someone prove they know how to use a firearm is not a stretch. The stretch is the application of how to provide that proof.
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Old 05-28-2015, 09:18 AM
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Most any adult chosen out of the phone book is FAR more qualified than any legislator to determine what level of accuracy is required for the situation in which he finds himself needing a gun to preserve his health. One would hope that he would not use the gun beyond the range at which it would do some good, but whether stray shots will be harmful has a lot to do with the environment, which no lawmaker knows in advance.

The difficult thing for some to grasp is that there are many situations to which the law has no practical relevance, whether it is passed or not, and quite regardless of what words it contains.

This may be one of them.
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Old 05-28-2015, 09:30 AM
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We had to shoot 35 out of 50 within the outer ring on a target and the instructor counted and measured each hit. One person barely passed. May have been an individual requirement.
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Old 05-28-2015, 10:02 AM
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Like it or not, the right to keep and bear arms is exactly that, a RIGHT and not a PRIVILEGE to be exercised only after receiving some government permission.

Training and achieving the highest possible levels of proficiency are good things, but attaching any such requirements amounts to a significant infringement upon the rights of all citizens, and effectively bars some from the free exercise of a constitutionally-guaranteed right.

My $0.02 worth.
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Old 05-28-2015, 10:10 AM
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In Texas it's fairly simple. 20 shots at 3 yards, 20 shots at 7 yards, 10 shots at 15 yards. 5 points per shot, all within the 8 ring or better. 7 ring is -1, outside 7 is -2, off the paper is -5. Need 175 out of 250 to pass.



Your average shooter has no problem getting 175. Someone who practices a few times a year could easily achieve a perfect score.
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Old 05-28-2015, 10:16 AM
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"Or should we have a test before you have the right to vote?"

With the state of the country and O being elected twice, I'd have to say yes STCM.
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Old 05-28-2015, 10:20 AM
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Not to start yet another firestorm, but the premise "a well regulated militia" could easily be read to imply well-regulated in the sense of trained and competent, so asking that someone prove they know how to use a firearm is not a stretch. The stretch is the application of how to provide that proof.
No firestorm, however, the way I read it is the "well regulated militia" is the goal, not the right. The right is to keep and bear arms so the "possibility", if you will, of a well regulated militia can not be removed by the government.

I don't think the founding fathers expected Americans to maintain a well regulated militia, but wanted to make sure if the government ever became like England did, we'd be able to remove the tyrants because we had the guns and that was something they wouldn't be able to take away. Regulating it would be our job, not the governments.
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Old 05-28-2015, 10:22 AM
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I think accuracy requirements open a can of worms.

The physical condition age and so on should not dedicate or not.

Having the tool to do the job is mandatory.

Should good sense and training be advised yes.

If grand pa is getting robbed , beaten and tortured then will [ I ] have ability at that time to group shots. I do not know.
I can say if I am of sound mind I will be armed until the Lord calls me home.
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Old 05-28-2015, 10:29 AM
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Like most things, there are people who want to make their thing exclusive. I guess it makes them feel bigger or more important. Example: For years ham radio 'elmers' railed against removing the code requirement for getting an amateur radio license. Guns are the same; a person wants the right to carry, but they don't trust that right to just everyone, so they set up hurdles and restrictions that let them pass through, but hold others back.

Any civil right, especially one enumerated in the Bill of Rights, should never require a qualification or a fee to exercise.

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Old 05-28-2015, 11:36 AM
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In Illinois The qualification requires that you fire 30 rounds at three different distances. Ten rounds each are fired at 5 yards, 7 yards and 10 yards. Out of the 30 rounds, you must achieve 70% accuracy, which means 21 rounds must hit the black portion of the target. there is also 16 hours of classroom study on laws and basic weapon usage. But no written testing other then the 30 rounds shot.

The Illinois deputy I had as an instructor said the shooting part was more to see safe handling of the weapon then anything .. very easy to hit 70% in an NRA B27 target at those distances.

There is a wide leeway in how and what is taught by different instructors, and some instructors didn't teach the whole 16 hours before signing off on the qualifications and some were disqualified and people had to retake the class. And that got expensive for them with little recourse for getting a refund from those dis-qualified instructors!

8 hours of the class room instruction can be made up with a dd214 or certain NRA safety classes can also be used for 4-8 hours of the credit ..

Was really a joke the shooting part of it .. although one person in the class only shot 80%, the rest shot 95% or better. I wouldn't want to be down range of him if he was shooting at someone. One man brought a pistol he said hadn't been shot in 15-20 years and the instructor wouldn't let him shoot it, unless he had a gun smitty look it over first. He used a 38 the instructor provided, that person had never shot a pistol and passed easily !

I qualified with all 30 rounds within the 8 ring

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Old 05-28-2015, 11:52 AM
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Requirements, Im still upset all I had to do is pay money and fill out paperwork. Just doesn't seem right to me. But I consider myself lucky thats all I had to do.

The government says lets restrict their rights and make money off of them at the same time.
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Old 05-28-2015, 12:02 PM
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In California -- at least in my county and with my instructor -- safe gun handling was more important than accuracy.

If you can get some holes near the middle of the target you were OK on accuracy.

But if you mishandled your weapon -- sweeping other shooters with a loaded gun or something -- you were disqualified.

The instructor said he would flunk you if you hit and broke his target stand. But someone did just that (I helped the instructor duct tape it back together so we could continue the qualification) and he didn't flunk the guy.

IMHO -- a "well regulated" militia means some degree of competence and safety.

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Old 05-28-2015, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by KF-NYC View Post
What is your opinion on the minimum accuracy a shooter should possess before being permitted to conceal carry a handgun?

shall not be infringed...
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Old 05-28-2015, 12:47 PM
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What is your opinion on the minimum accuracy a shooter should possess before being permitted to conceal carry a handgun?
Nothing should be required

The Government does not have the Legal Authority to define how you protect yourself or those around you. That is a natural born right reaffirmed in our Constitution

The Second Amendment to the Constitution does not give a right to the people nor does it authorize to Government to issue permits.

The Second Amendment to the Constitution is a limitation on what the Government is allowed to do.

the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed
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Old 05-28-2015, 01:13 PM
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If you can hit a human-sized target located at the end of your barrel, that's good enough, as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 05-28-2015, 01:27 PM
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Pie plate at 5yds with a minimum of 7 out of 10. That's my opinion.
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Old 05-28-2015, 01:48 PM
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I have been toting a gun just a couple months shy of forty (40) years as this moment. On Tuesday, June 2, I will undergo my annual qualification.

I have ZERO problem with that requirement. IIRC, the courses of fire require 70% scoring. Two courses: day and night. Fire from 3, 7, 15, and 25 yard lines. Strong hand, off hand, barricade, and kneeling positions are included.

Be safe.
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Old 05-28-2015, 02:21 PM
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I have mixed thoughts about this. On one hand, I am absolutely a strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment and the individual right to keep and bear. On the other hand, if Mr. Magoo's wild shots hit and wounded/killed me or mine then it wouldn't be academic to me...As a former LEO, I have seen the results of poor shooting...Would a shooting test reduce the chance of a bystand being hit? Frankly, I don't know...In Virginia, I think a live fire test in't required and there are exemptions to having to take a training class. One is being current or former military. I NEVER handled a firearm while serving in the navy as a Machinist Mate...Where is the line between individual rights and public safety?... There is no easy answer. For me, if it came down to thinking I could likely kill or wound somebody's loved one, I would give up carrying a gun and probably go to cane and knife carry...Unfortunately, there are a good many people who overestimate their competence...When I go to a public range and see the shooting skills exhibited by many, the thought of those people armed in public makes me cringe.
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Old 05-28-2015, 02:23 PM
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Sure - a competency test makes perfect sense. While we're at it, let's implement an English grammar and spelling test before we allow people to exercise their 1st Amendment rights.
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Old 05-28-2015, 02:24 PM
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It all starts with situational awareness.
No...it all starts with the 2nd Amendment. I see nothing there regarding situational awareness OR accuracy. The only qualification I see is "the people".

Like it or don't like it...that's the way it is.
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Old 05-28-2015, 03:48 PM
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...if Mr. Magoo's wild shots hit and wounded/killed me or mine then it wouldn't be academic to me....
I think this, like 'over penetration', is frequently blown out of proportion to its actual danger.

Think about it, where is a mugger likely to pull a knife on you and rob you- in the middle of a crowd, or when you're transiting some lonely isolated spot?

Yes, I know it does happen on occasion, but for most regular citizen muggings/robberies, there isn't going to be many (if any) people around. Stop-N-Rob stores, maybe one or two, but most likely that'll be in the dead of night when you ran in for some caffeine to stay awake, and you were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

There are actually quite a few self-defense shootings by regular citizens, of course the media outside the locals seldom give them much coverage. I have never heard of a bystander getting killed by a shot that had previously passed through the bad guy, or a shot that missed him. Police officers- yes. Private citizens- no.
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Old 05-28-2015, 04:20 PM
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As a former LEO, I have seen the results of poor shooting...Would a shooting test reduce the chance of a bystand being hit? Frankly, I don't know..


...When I go to a public range and see the shooting skills exhibited by many, the thought of those people armed in public makes me cringe.
I'm not trying to be a smart-***, and I am definitely not a cop-basher. I have to say, though, when I see the skills exhibited by many police officers, I cringe at the thought that they are allowed on the street every day with loaded firearms. I believe that the demonstrable lack of gun-handling skills by police officers who supposedly receive some serious training is one of the biggest arguments against requiring citizens to undergo training.
Woman sues NYPD over Empire State shooting - CBS News

Times Square shooting: NYPD officers shoot two innocent bystanders near Times Square - CBS News

PD: Officer fired 9 shots outside downtown Orlando bar, killing bystander | Local News - WESH Home
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Old 05-28-2015, 04:44 PM
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I have mixed thoughts about this. On one hand, I am absolutely a strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment and the individual right to keep and bear. On the other hand, if Mr. Magoo's wild shots hit and wounded/killed me or mine then it wouldn't be academic to me...As a former LEO, I have seen the results of poor shooting...Would a shooting test reduce the chance of a bystand being hit? Frankly, I don't know...In Virginia, I think a live fire test in't required and there are exemptions to having to take a training class. One is being current or former military. I NEVER handled a firearm while serving in the navy as a Machinist Mate...Where is the line between individual rights and public safety?... There is no easy answer. For me, if it came down to thinking I could likely kill or wound somebody's loved one, I would give up carrying a gun and probably go to cane and knife carry...Unfortunately, there are a good many people who overestimate their competence...When I go to a public range and see the shooting skills exhibited by many, the thought of those people armed in public makes me cringe.
Sadly I have seen the same thing you describe with some shooters. I spent 6 years in the Air Force and probably only 5% ever shoot anything other then qualifying on the m16 once a year or what ever long gun now in use. I had to qualify with the 45 as we had those in our high security vaulted areas I worked in along with some other weapons we qualified on also.

I also strongly believe in second amendment rights, but hope some decide not to conceal carry!
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Old 05-28-2015, 05:12 PM
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You should be able to shoot as good as a New York cop. 16 rounds and one hit, maybe.....
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Old 05-28-2015, 05:51 PM
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I want to start with this is America, and we all share the same freedom to express different opinions.

My view on the issue of training requirements is shaped by three facts:

1. The Constitution is a living document and it's designed to change over time.

2. Every right we hold also comes with a commensurate amount of responsibility. Rights with out responsibilities leads to abuse, and responsibilities without rights leads to tyranny.

3. You can never underestimate the ability of some people to be stupid.

----

I grew up on a ranch where guns were just everyday tools and safe gun handling was something learned shortly after learning to walk. Responsibility was also a big item on the agenda and I had significant responsibilities on the ranch from a very young age.

I'm biased by that and I recognize that both having the training (formal or otherwise) in safe gun handling and understanding and accepting the concept of personal responsibility are both key components of safe and responsible concealed carry.

I also recognize, having spent a good portion of my career back east in some urban areas, that the majority of people are not raised that way and that the gun culture in America is becoming less pronounced with each passing year between an increasingly urban shift in population and a continuing reduction in hunting opportunities, habit and the overall percentage of people who hunt.

That's a drastically different world that the framers of our constitution were familiar with. They were for the most part came from back grounds much more similar to my ranch raised upbringing than to the average urban raised individual.

In that regard, I don't see reasonable training requirements as violating the spirit of the second amendment and i suspect the framers of the Constitution, if they were around now would agree.

I'm sure some of you have seen people on the range with zero idea how to safely handle a handgun, let alone handle one effectively, and if you're a) honest with yourself, and b) get off the Constitutional Carry stump, you'd probably agree that a half day on the range is not a bad idea for a CCW permit applicant who has never handled a handgun.

States that have training requirements are more likely to be states with less well developed gun cultures, and states without a training requirement (like South Dakota) tend to be states where rates of gun ownership, hunting and participation in shooting sports is high. Consequently, comparing accident / safety rates for states with and without training requirements is seriously flawed as there are other variables at work other than the specified CCW permit required training.

----

NC has what I regard as a very balanced approach to concealed carry. It is a "shall issue" state, and permits are easy to get in most counties. They do a thorough background check, they check for involuntary mental health commitments in the state, they require 4 hours of firearm safety training, 4 hours of training in the laws pertaining to the use of deadly force in NC, and they require live fire qualification.

The live fire course consists of 40 rounds fired at 3, 5 and 7 yards with most of the rounds fired in timed and rapid fire phases with 2 to 5 rounds fired and with the individual drawing from concealment each time, re-holstering after each phase and reloading as necessary. It's designed not just to ensure minimum accuracy, but also to allow the applicant to demonstrate proper gun handling.

As I recall, a passing score is 26 rounds inside the silhouette of a B-27 target. It's not a high standard, but it's a reasonable standard given that a) if you can't keep your rounds inside a torso silhouette at 3, 5 and 7 yards, you're most likely going to be at excessively high risk for just spraying rounds and tagging innocent bystanders in a self defense shoot, and b) most people, even total newbies can meet that standard with minimal training.

Is that good enough? Yes, for a permit, but absolutely not if you think you're ever going to carry a firearm with a reasonable expectation of defending yourself with it.

But that's where the personal responsibility comes into play. The qualification score is just a legal minimum. I shoot my concealed carry weapon a regular basis with the intent of ensuring I can shoot rapidly and accurately . I did that in SD with a permit there, I did that in VA with my permit there, and I continue to do that here in NC.

My NC qualification target had a few 9s and an 8 on it. In phases such as 5 rounds on 5 seconds, I shot it at the same speed and pace I used in practical pistol matched (i.e in a lot less time than was available. One of my known weaknesses when shooting at speed is a tendency to drive the muzzle down in double taps and controlled pairs and if I'm not careful I start slipping out the bottom of the A zone. In this case, on a B-27 target, it equated to a few 9s and an embarrassing 8.

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Old 05-28-2015, 06:10 PM
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Stop a two legged or four legged beast at 0 to 10'.
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Old 05-28-2015, 06:35 PM
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In that regard, I don't see reasonable training requirements as violating the spirit of the second amendment and i suspect the framers of the Constitution, if they were around now would agree.
Agree. The founding fathers had great trust for government and would have loved for it to be in charge of making qualification courses for those wishing to exercise their second amendment right.
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Old 05-28-2015, 07:06 PM
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Anything that our legislators decide to be for the good of the people should be incorporated into the public school systems and taught from an early age. If that is to include competency with common defensive firearms, then I will support such restrictions on individual rights to bear arms (i.e.: pass a reasonable and commonly applied standard, then exercise your rights freely. Fail to pass a reasonable and commonly applied standard and it is time for retraining or restrictions on your activities).

It is a RIGHT, not a privilege to be granted or denied by bureaucratic fiat.
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Old 05-28-2015, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB57 View Post

States that have training requirements are more likely to be states with less well developed gun cultures, and states without a training requirement (like South Dakota) tend to be states where rates of gun ownership, hunting and participation in shooting sports is high. Consequently, comparing accident / safety rates for states with and without training requirements is seriously flawed as there are other variables at work other than the specified CCW permit required training.
I can fix that for you.

Tennessee and Georgia are border states.
They have similar "gun cultures".
Both are in the top ten highest percentage of permit holders in the country at approximately 9% and 8% respectively.

We have now eliminated the "serious flawed" variables.

Tennessee requires training. Georgia does not.

Please compare "accident / safety rates" between these two states and make the case for mandatory training.

I have asked for this MANY times from folks making similar arguments as you have. So far no takers. You?
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Old 05-28-2015, 07:57 PM
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Phil; these threads always break down into ..... it's an unrestricted right.... vs....we'd like to see some level of competency before someone carries a gun a gun in public areas that they may be sharing with me!!!!!!!

My feelings is ..... it's is and should remain an unrestricted right to own and carry a firearm.....but...... individuals should..... impose upon themselves....... the duty and responsibility to be able to safely and effectively deploy and utilize a firearm they plan to carry into public spaces. Not just buy a revolver and 5/6 rounds of ammo and begin to conceal carry around town......

Or; Just cus you can ..... doesn't mean you should...

Should the government be the one mandating restrictions/training.... IMHO...NO.... but one would hope that each individual would at least achieve a minimum level of competency before carrying a concealed (or open) handgun.

Common sense says ..... learn how to drive a car, use a chainsaw or a firearm...... in a safe and effective manner...before venturing into an environment that you may use those things to harm or kill another or yourself.

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Old 05-28-2015, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAM-BAM View Post
Phil; these threads always break down into ..... it's an unrestricted right.... vs....we'd like to see some level of competency before someone carries a gun a gun in public areas that they may be sharing with me!!!!!!!

My feelings is ..... it's is and should remain an unrestricted right to own and carry a firearm.....but...... individuals should..... impose upon themselves....... the duty and responsibility to be able to safely and effectively deploy and utilize a firearm they plan to carry into public spaces. Not just buy a revolver and 5/6 rounds of ammo and begin to conceal carry around town......

Or; Just cus you can ..... doesn't mean you should...

Should the government be the one mandating restrictions/training.... IMHO...NO.... but one would hope that each individual would at least achieve a minimum level of competency before carrying a concealed (or open) handgun.

Common sense says ..... learn how to drive a car, use a chainsaw or a firearm...... in a safe and effective manner...before venturing into an environment that you may use those things to harm or kill another or yourself.
Amen! That is my opinion as well.
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Old 05-28-2015, 08:30 PM
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The ability to hit a barn while shooting inside it is a good starting place.
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Old 05-28-2015, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
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1. The Constitution is a living document and it's designed to change over time.
Bullcrap.

That is the kind of thinking that gave us such
(Nonexistent) Constitutional rights such as a
"right to privacy."

There is a very specific process outlined in the
Constitution itself for changing that document.
The Framers meant for it to be difficult and time
consuming. They certainly didn't consider any
foolish assumptions that the Constitution should
"evolve," or that it was a "living, breathing document."
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Old 05-28-2015, 09:00 PM
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As a kid I kept riding my bike until I got it right.
I don't need no dam "regulators" imposing their B.S. on me.
laissez-faire!
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Old 05-28-2015, 09:05 PM
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Here we go again.
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Old 05-28-2015, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB57 View Post
My view on the issue of training requirements is shaped by three facts:

1. The Constitution is a living document and it's designed to change over time.

2. Every right we hold also comes with a commensurate amount of responsibility. Rights with out responsibilities leads to abuse, and responsibilities without rights leads to tyranny.

3. You can never underestimate the ability of some people to be stupid.
Sorry, but #1 is NOT a fact...it is your opinion...and it is wrong.

Yes, it CAN change over time, and the framers allowed for that, but it is not thru the interpretation de jour, but thru a delineated process called amendments, and that is the ONLY legit way it changes.
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Old 05-28-2015, 10:43 PM
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Interesting responses. I truly believe that this is a difficult question with no answer. There is no accuracy litmus test to pass before you start to carry a concealed handgun. That decision is left up to each concealed handgun carry license holder. I would prefer that a person not carry a handgun until they know how to shoot it well. Shooting well is an ambiguous term to define. Once the concealed handgun license is granted the ultimate determination on whether to carry or not is made by the license holder themselves. I can only hope that a person develops the skill to be able to use the firearm prior to carrying it. Clearly, I don't make the rules but I believe, and others may think otherwise, no one should be carrying the handgun simply because they can. There is a serious degree of responsibility attached to the carrying a handgun. One needs to learn to use that weapon effectively prior to carrying it. Whether your jurisdiction has no shooting qualifications or the jurisdiction mandates a minimum score in live fire shooting, I can only hope that a person who carries has the ability to use their handguns. Although I do support the Second Amendment, I hope that those who do carry are shooters who are proficient with their handguns and not a risk to themselves or to others.
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Old 05-28-2015, 11:27 PM
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Sorry, but #1 is NOT a fact...it is your opinion...and it is wrong.

Yes, it CAN change over time, and the framers allowed for that, but it is not thru the interpretation de jour, but thru a delineated process called amendments, and that is the ONLY legit way it changes.
You and a previous poster have made a gigantic and incorrect assumption. I'm not talking about the Constitution changing over time to changes in court opinion but instead through the process of amendment.

The second amendment is not a God given right, it's just part of the Bill of Rights, and like any other amendment is subject to change at the discretion and will of the people. Prohibition came and went, and it did so based on popular opinion. As we gun owners become an increasing minority, we need to be particularly careful to demonstrate that we can exercise our rights responsibly. If we fail to do that, we lose the war being waged to sway public opinion. If we lose that, sooner or later we'll lose our second amendment rights.

----

One possible choice then is to stand on the "constitutional carry" soap box and in the process fail to self police the less responsible among us until the number of accidents and incidents reaches the point where a majority of American's say "no thanks" and restrict our rights. It's a fairly short sighted choice and one that's based on a "God given right" premise that is fatally flawed.

I'm all for keeping the government, and in particular the federal government out of it, but that means we as a community have to step up and start encouraging and even insisting that shooters get decent training and exercise their rights responsibly. That's a better choice, if you're concerned about your kids and grandkids enjoying the same rights you have now.

One thing most American's seem to be ignorant about is the fact that most of the framers of the Constitution were not the same people who drafted the Declaration of Independence or the Articles of Confederation. Those earlier documents were all about individual freedom and liberty. The Constitution was drafted by a body of people more concerned with creating a government that promoted a stable environment for commerce and ownership of property. The Bill of Rights was quite literally an after thought drafted and included as a means to get the Constitution ratified.
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Old 05-28-2015, 11:46 PM
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I've been a avid collector and shooter for 45 plus years. I have a CCW in California which in some areas in CA. is impossible to get. In my county I had to take a 16 hour course , split between classroom and range instruction. I resisted at first. I thought and still do to a degree that the average law abiding citizen should have the right to carry if they want to. But I was surprised and impressed with what I learned. It was so much more than a 9"pie plate at 10 yds.. My instructors were retired law enforcement and certified NRA.
The benefit of my training exceeded the 125.00 for the class. The classroom time was a little slow at times but very valuable. Every CCW should have or at least want to have proper training and education. What a tremendous liability one takes on with a CCW. Why not get training?
I would say...it equals a diving license in a way... One needs to understand the rules of the road and pass some sort of proficiency test to get a drivers license. I know those states not requiring training have good results too. But for me... it was a good thing.

Last edited by sturtyboy; 05-28-2015 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 05-28-2015, 11:48 PM
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No qualification should be needed to exercise a constitutional right.
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