No, all set with my J frame. I live a J frame lifestyle. Great line!

But ya never know. Make your own decisions based on need.

There were 4 places I felt threatened.

(1) Niagara, NY. Potential threat (mugger) veered away when I turned around and looked at him.

(2) Baltimore, MD. Same as above.

(3) Paris, France...Metro mugger and girlfriend. Same as above.

For 1-3, I was with my wife but none of these situations were her fault.

(4) Montreal...Metro...Subway rats surrounded my wife looking for her pocketbook. They ran when I ran toward her. Actually, she went up to one of them to ask directions unbeknownst to me. We've had several long discussions about safe behavior when away from home. LOL.

Bless her heart. She is a beautiful trusting person with no danger radar.

In none of those places could I carry a J frame or anything else.

I really haven't had any close to home confrontations.

Lord willing I'd like to keep it that way.

Yiogo

Do you have a link to this stat? I think your stats are way off. Did you do the numbers or someone else?

How Likely Are You to Die From Gun Violence? This Interesting Chart Puts It in Perspective | TheBlaze.com

But it's okay. When I get time I'll figure it out myself.

Best I could find is

police: 7.4 per 100,000

Group News Blog: How Dangerous is Being a Cop in the US?


Civilian 4 per 100,000

How Likely Are You to Die From Gun Violence? This Interesting Chart Puts It in Perspective | TheBlaze.com


Hmmmm


Forgive me but I am an engineer and live stats and hate when people spout them off to support their opinions without backing them up with data. I must politely say you are wrong based upon some quick research.


I also know crime stats are way under reported.


Americans 58 Times More Likely To Be Killed By Police Than Terrorists, Study : News : News Every Day


And the more I research. The more I think you have it backwards

http://actionamerica.org/guns/guns1.shtml

More recent data. Sure I'll find more:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybel...ntrol-lobby/2/

99 44/100 % of the time, when I am going normal places, doing normal things and not looking for trouble? No.

As I posted elsewhere, following the Charleston shooting I decided to carry something of higher capacity and an extra magazine to church on Sunday. In that situation I am responsible for the safety of others and had a heightened awareness of my obligation.

If I were knowingly going into a high crime area or were working in a remote area late at night I might think otherwise. Most of the time I carry in order to have a way to get myself out of trouble.

There is always the danger that the local chapter of the Hell's Angels or an ISIS cell will decide to pick on me. To prepare for that...I pray. I know I'm not good enough to survive that scenario solo.

__________________
I need ammo, not a ride.

For carry, I'm pretty comfortable with 5 based on the stats I'm aware of and considering the primary plan is always to avoid or escape since I'm not a cop. There is usually an opportunity to flee even once violence has commenced. Being pinned down where you need a high volume of fire is just not a likely scenario for a normal citizen. A lot of civilian self-defense encounters are sudden ambush style attacks and the snub really shines in these types of scenarios. Remember Zimmerman's gun jammed after the first shot which is a concern in ECQ attacks. If he had missed, who knows what may have happened or his gun could have been pushed out of battery and he could have not even get one shot off. It just depends on the specifics of the situation which no one can predict, but prepare and chose your weapons accordingly by looking at what is most likely to occur not what theoretically could which might just make you less capable to deal with what's most realistically a possibility.

Now for home defense, where a home invasion could occur in the middle of night and escape is a much less likely an option, I still prefer a handgun, but I wouldn't be really too comfortable with my only option being limited to 5 rounds. I often grab a snub for investigating a bump in the night and things like that, but if I'm sure there's someone breaking in, I would probably grab one of my Glocks although I still wouldn't feel horribly ill armed if a snub(or two) is all I had, but it's nice to have the option of higher capacity on hand nearby.

In all honesty, the issue is not necessarily "5 shots" as it is how effectively can you run that gun. I am a professional trainer and been a very serious student of how to win gunfights my entire adult life. I guarantee I have far more training than a vast majority of both citizens and law enforcement folks. I have a hard time running a snub at a highly efficient level. Simply moving up to a K frame sized snub is a huge step in how efficiently I can run that system. With that said, I know several freaks of nature who can run a J frame like a service size gun. That really should be the goal for those who carry one as a primary. Personally, I do not live a J frame lifestyle and do not have the right avoidance mindset (I am getting there in retirement). My goal is to get to the point in life where I am perfectly happy with a .38 snub....I am just not there yet.
I would not disparage someone for the choice of a J frame snub as a self defense tool IF they are taking seriously the work that goes with that. On the other hand, for many people (which includes a large number of cops who should know better), the snub revolver is a talisman. Something like a trinket to ward off evil. They are hard guns to run well.....even at close range (where things are happening very fast, and very dynamic) they need some serious skills to hit with effectively.....and with only 5 rounds of .38, hitting effectively is going to be critical. Lots of dry practice and serious range work need to go along with that J frame lifestyle.

I carry a 642. I try my best to live the "J-frame lifestyle" mentioned earlier. I do my best to maintain awareness of my surroundings and have no problem walking (or running!) away from potentially bad situations. I feel adequately prepared should I need to defend myself. Hopefully I'll never find out.

I like snubs for a variety of reasons. Lightweight, compact, easily concealable, reasonable power level, etc. I like that they're immune to limp-wristing that could be cause by anything from having to fire at an awkward angle to injuries. I like that contact shots can be made if needed without having to worry about the slide being pushed out of battery.

Claude Werner did a study of 482 incidents recorded in American Rifleman's "Armed Citizen" column. The average number of shots fired by the defender was 2. If I remember correctly the average distance was just beyond arm's length. Defender's reloaded 3 times out of 482 incidents. Another study I read, based on NYPD shootings if I remember correctly, said that most of the time when officers did reload, which was also a small percentage, it didn't have an impact on the outcome of the gunfight.

A lot of the concern I've seen with capacity usually revolves around multiple attackers. A lot of the after-action reports I've read on non-LE self defense shootings and video footage I've seen show that with multiple attackers as soon as their target resists they can't get out of the area fast enough, often stumbling over each other. Have there been incidents where they continued the attack after meeting resistance? Yes, but those are very rare.

I spend most of my practice time focused on the most likely scenarios, but I will often try to incorporate outlier scenarios from time to time. It's impossible to practice for every possible scenario, but it's always good to have some flexibility and to have some contingency plans prepared.

I forgot to mention earlier, there was another fellow who once felt well prepared with five rounds. You can read about him in the Book of I Samuel, Chapter 17. If you read the story, pay close attention to verse 40. Prior to going out to meet the giant Goliath, the young man David chose for himself five smooth stones from the brook in preparation for his confrontation with the giant.

Now he didn't seem to feel the need for more than five stones, or else I suspect he'd have gathered up more. I doubt seriously if there were only five smooth stones in that brook. Now this is a bit tongue in cheek, but if you are familiar with the story, this young man David had already tangled with a lion and a bear that tried to steal some of the sheep David was taking care of. The lion and the bear paid with their lives at the hand of this young man.

David seemed to be confident in his abilities with his slingshot. He faced the giant and brought him to earth with ONE of those smooth stones. The giant, on the other hand, had a spear, a sword, and a javelin, which were no match for the stone that struck him in the forehead, no doubt a small target in order to avoid striking the helmet that likely covered most of his head and the suit of armor he was wearing. So David didn't just hit the giant with the stone. He hit him in exactly the place where the stone would do the most good. Let the record show that David ran over to the giant and took the giant's sword and cut off his head. Did the stone kill the giant, or did the sword kill him? Who can say for sure? I will say this that we can know ... if the stone had not done it's job, the sword would not have been available to finish the job or make sure of it. The record states that David had no sword in his own hand. And the record also tells us that apparently David needed no reload after he fired the first stone. I figure I can send a second round down range with my five shot revolver more quickly than David could have reloaded his slingshot from his shepherd bag. Then again, I'd rather not find out the hard way. I expect he was also well practiced with his reloading.

Believe the Bible story or not, this story points out that a determined and confident man who has faith in his weaponry and his ability to use it properly and effectively and who is also fighting for what is right is a formidable adversary. I, for one, believe this story and take it at face value. Certainly not all who fight for the right survive alive, but that's not the point here. A man must be firmly committed to the task at hand and have taken steps to be fully prepared to meet whatever eventuality may present itself. The suit of armor offered to David would have been a big hindrance to him, but his own familiar equipment allowed him to prevail.

Five smooth stones. One in the chamber and four in reserve. David apparently felt he was well prepared and ready. Apparently he was. I believe this story is food for thought. Thanks for listening ...

__________________
So long ... Ken

If you can hit people in the face at distance with your snub everytime and in variable scenarios, then like David......you'll be fine. If you haven't trained, can't hit effectively, and simply have "faith" , you will likely end up like Goliath's previous opponents.

I don't worry one bit. I also carry a speed strip.

It's not how many rounds you have, but how many will hit the mark....
We had two County sheriff deputy's stop a car that the US marshal's
though may have a wanted felon.
Only 3/4 of a mile from my house.
They stopped the car, the BG was disguised with a woman's wig and dress.
He opened fire as the LEO's got out of there car's.
He hit both of them twice, they both emptied the Glock 40 S&W of 12 rounds and never hit him.
One is back to work after 18 month's. The other is still not back at work.
The BG car jacked and went 20 miles north and when confronted by multiple LEO's, shot himself...

And yes, I CC a J frame in warmer weather.
But like a 1911 when wearing a jacket in cooler weather...
Don't feel under gunned with either.

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

I'm content with a J-frame and have been for sixteen years. But then in retirement my life is very quiet and I don't get out as much as I used to.

__________________
Oh well, what the hell.

If five won't get the job done, your in way over head.

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John

No, I hadn't thought about it until you brought it up!
Thanks a lot!
Now I'm trying to figure out a shoulder holster for my AR that doesn't make the butt look too big. Not to mention, has pouches on the off side for 5 or 6 30-rounders.
Can't be too careful these days.
Now: Reynolds Oven Wrap for my hat liner and I'm ready for Walmart!

To answer the OP's question: yes I questioned whether 5 was enough and impulse bought a Glock 26 gen4 from my LGS. I dry fired it, broke it down, tried to get to like it but couldn't. My LGS took it back on trade for a Colt Defender in .45acp because it was unfired. This was not so much for the five is not enough question as an ability to reload quickly. The learning curve on the 1911 after 21 years with my J-frame was a bit expensive for this tradesman. I tried for 2 weeks to sell my Defender on GB with one price drop on what I thought was reasonable to begin with and decided to not lose a fortune (to me) on it. I may resume my learning curve later but for now 5 is enough, with 2 speed strips and a NAA .22 mag BUG with it's own speed strip😏. I have since paid to much for a used 649-3 that was rode hard and put away wet ( literally as evidenced by the corrosion under the grips). Other issues have me getting a repair shipping label to S&W. I really like this gun and have decided it is worthy of resurrection. Once it comes back I will have 2 J-frames for a real NY reload if I want. Not likely to happen very often as my 640 is a little large for pocket carry, ankle carry maybe? Who knows.



Stay safe, John

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Luke 23:34

Against the average mugger or carjacker? No.

Then we started seeing domestic Islamist terrorists plus the moron in South Carolina.

I'm transitioning from my Smith 36 "no dash" to a 3.5" Citadel compact .45.

I felt the need for both more power and more capacity.

These days, you're wherever you find yourself, and it's the other guy's choice, not necessarily yours.

If somebody chooses to imitate the Kenya mall massacre, are you going to say to them, "No fair, I only brought my Chief's Special!"

There's a middle ground between a J frame and an .308 AR "pistol".

Let me apologize for what is a long post on a complex topic., then let me start with the fact that I agree with you that practice with the firearm you carry is paramount.

That has to be qualified however with the statement that the range of shooting ability for civilian concealed carry permit holders is at least as large as it is for LEOs, that the average LEO is not a gun person and shoots no more than is required to qualify, and that in my experience shooting practical pistol competition since the 1990s, that I seldom saw many police officers in local matches and of those local LEOs and FBI agents I did see, they all improved substantially over time, and they were by no means the most capable shooters there.

The point here is that you can't assume that any given concealed carry permit holder actively carrying a firearm on a daily basis is more or less skilled than the average LEO. In practice, most people carrying a gun, citizen and LEO alike, have skills that are woefully lacking.

As for the data you cite...

There are a couple truths in government data and statistics.

First, nothing gets cleared that does not fit someone's agenda. Poke around in any government agency, alphabet intelligence agency, law enforcement agency or any other government agency and you'll find file cabinets worth of research, data and statistics that are never going to be released because someone in the building disagree with the conclusions, or because those conclusions don't fit the agenda of the political folks at the top of the agency or the administration over all.

Second, the context of the data, the sources, and the collection methods are all vital to determining the validity of the data and the validity of the conclusions the data is supposed to support.

I'd love to see the actual studies you are citing, or at least the source data, as I suspect the 4.5 times more likely to be shot and 4.2 times more likely to die conclusions have a long list of constraints and qualification and most likely do not consider the larger picture.

That's from the perspective of a former LEO/investigator turned administrator and data person.

Officer deaths and injuries:

Let's look at what we know about police officer deaths and injuries.

National level data on officer involved shoots are surprisingly hard to come by, unless the officer has been killed or assaulted, at which point it becomes something tracked by the FBI's uniform crime report.

Here's a few things we do know based on the UCR data that you can find here:

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/leoka/2013

If you look at the data you'll find 511 officers were feloniously killed in the line of duty from 2004 to 2013 (an average of 51.1 per year), with the number of officers killed varying from a high of 72 in 2011 to a low of 27 in 2013.

In 2013, of the 27 officers killed, 26 were killed with firearms, 25 of them were male, 25 of them were white, and their average age was 39 with an average length of service of 13 years.

19 of the officers were wearing body armor and of those 18 were killed with firearms. Of these officers, 18 were killed with firearms, incurring the following wounds:
5 were wounded in the side of the head.
5 were shot in the front upper torso/chest.
4 suffered wounds to the front of the head.
3 were shot in the neck/throat.
1 was shot in the rear lower torso/back.

16 were employed by city police departments 15 were killed in the south - the largest number in any region by a factor of 2 - and only 4 were killed in cities with populations greater than 250,000 people.

6 officers died as a result of arrest situations, 5 officers were involved in ambush situations, 5 officers died as a result of investigating suspicious persons or circumstances, 4 officers who died had responded to disturbance calls, 4 officers were killed as a result of tactical situations (barricaded offender, hostage taking, high-risk entry, etc.), 2 officers were fatally injured during traffic pursuits or stops, and 1 officer was conducting investigative activity (surveillance, search, interview, etc.).

6 officers fired their service weapons, and 3 attempted to fire their service weapon - in other words 18 of them, 67%, never attempted to use their service weapon, suggesting a very sudden onset of unexpected events.

26 of the alleged assailants were male, 15 of them were white, 20 of them had prior offenses, 6 of them were on probation or parole at the time, and the average age was 30.

If you look at the 10 year total of 511 officers slain, 474 were killed with firearms, 345 of those were handguns, 87 were rifles 40 were shotguns and in 2 cases the type of firearm was not reported. 28 officers were killed with vehicles and only 3 were killed with knives - just one more than were killed with bombs.

Where it gets interesting is in the assault data.

In 2013 out of 533,895 officers employed, 49,851 were assaulted - 9.3%. This reflects reports from 11,468 law enforcement agencies covering 78.2% of the nation's population.

Of the 49,851 assaulted, 29.2% were injured in the assault. 31.0 percent of the officers who were attacked with personal weapons (e.g., hands, fists, or feet) suffered injuries, 14.6 percent of the officers who were assaulted with knives or other cutting instruments were injured, 10.9 percent of officers who were attacked with firearms were injured, and 27.0 percent of officers who were attacked with other dangerous weapons were injured.

Consequently, while firearms are the primary mechanism for slaying officers, the injury rates in assaults are low - lower than any other weapon type used.

Looking a little broader, in 2013, 79.8 percent of officers who were assaulted in the line of duty were attacked with personal weapons (e.g., hands, fists, or feet), 13.9 percent of the officers were assaulted with other dangerous weapons, 4.5 percent of the officers were assaulted with firearms, and only 1.8 percent of the officers were assaulted with knives or other cutting instruments.

In other words, for police officers assaults involving firearms account for less than 1 in 20 assaults, and only around 10% of those result in injury.

62.7% of officers assaulted were in single officer vehicle patrols, and 92.9% were responding to disturbance calls.

What we don't know about officer assaults and injuries:

There are some key questions that can'e be answered:

Out of the 573,456 assaults on officers over the 10 year span of the data:

- how many were stopped by the officer or another officer drawing or using his or her service weapon?

- how many of those assaults would have resulted in injury had the officer not been armed?

Of the 21,783 assaults involving firearms, how many would have resulted in injury or fatality to the officer if he or she had not drawn or used a firearm (and consider that fully 2/3rds of the officers killed never fired or attempted to fire their weapon)?

Of the 9,820 assaults involving knives, how many would have resulted in injury or fatality to the officer if he or she had not drawn or used a firearm?

Of the 31,603 assaults above, in how many of those assaults would have resulted in injury or fatality if the officer had not been wearing body armor (remembering here that 18 out of 27 slain officers were shot while wear body armor but only 6 were shot in areas that were protected by their body armor (and those officers were most likely shot by rifles).

What we have for hard data on armed citizen encounters:

What do we know about armed citizen self defense shoots?

Not much, because the method in which a potential victim responded to an attempted assault or murder is not consistently reported or collected.

What do we actually know about armed citizen self defense situations where the presence of a weapon, without having to fire it, prevented an assault or death?

Even less, as many of those attempted assaults, perhaps the majority of them, are never even reported.

What assumptions can we make?

We can make some basic assumptions about the differences between armed citizen and LEO assaults and relative percentages shot and killed.

There are distinct differences in hesitancy to shoot.

Armed citizens operate under much tighter constraints of when they can and cannot shoot - and they know it. In comparison, 1 in 5 officer involved shoots involves mistake of fact, where the officer believes the assailant is armed when they are not. The media makes a major fuss over those shoots, but many of them are justifiable shoots where the assailant, even though unarmed, posed what a reasonable person would construe as a credible threat.

The recent shooting of a young black man outside a convenience store has gotten lot of recent play. What's not reported is that the officer responded to a call of a man fitting his description with a gun. The man refused to comply with the officers request to stop, and then turned around with his hand coming out of his waist band, creating what the officer believed was an imminent threat. The backstory here is also not reported - that the man had made some suicidal statements and that it's strongly suspected this was a suicide by cop scenario.

It represents a "mistake of fact" where the officer shooting the assailant is clearly justified, despite the lack of a weapon.

In other cases, the shoot is much questionable.

For example in this shooting in SC the officer shot a young man at a traffic stop for doing exactly what the officer asked him to do - produce his drivers license. The officer failed to ask where the license was located, and failed to specify how the individual should go about getting it, then over reacted when the individual did something unexpected - jumping into the car to get it, and quickly coming back out. As far as I know he was't charged, but I'm pretty sure he's not working as an LEO any longer.


The point here is that the courts give officers a great deal of attitude in use of deadly force, and for good reason as we ask officers to respond to dangerous situations and go looking for bad people in dark and scary places. They need to have a lot more latitude in regard to using deadly force.

However, when they screw it up and get it wrong, they'll still have a degree of immunity from prosecution, as the assumption is made (rightly so in most cases) that the officer just made a bad decision on tight time constraints and in potentially dangerous circumstances. That lack of good judgment may well get them fired, but they are probably not going to be charged, and they will have the legal resources and the deep pockets of the department behind them for any civil suit.

An armed citizen enjoys none of that latitude and is 100% on the hook for all the liability attached to each round he or she fires from the time it leaves their firearm until it comes to rest.

Consequently, an armed citizen is more hesitant to fire at an assailant, and no doubt that hesitation results in injury or death in instances where an officer would have fired sooner.

Use of body armor:

Most officers wear at least Level IIIa body armor, in some situations they'll have Level III armor with ballistic plates to provide protection against rifle rounds.

In contrast, most armed citizens do not as it is hot, and even in some of the newer materials it is bulky enough to make concealment less than perfect. And in general, Level IIIa body armor designed for concealed wear under a shirt covers less of the torso than armor designed to be worn over a shirt, something that has become much more common for police officers. If an armed citizen is wearing body armor it's more likely to be level IIA armor covering less of the torso.

When you look at the differences then between armed citizens shot and skilled versus LEOs shot and killed, you have to look at the role body armor plays in preventing officer deaths and serious injuries.

Response to calls versus being the victim:

I'll use an example of a response to a very ordinary officer call for back up. A small town LEO (the only officer on duty in that town) called the SO's office for back up to a domestic disturbance. On arrival we could hear a lady yelling at someone punctuated with an occasional "bong" sound. The officer on the scene indicated he knew the people and that the husband had a history of abusing his wife. He speculated that she'd decided she'd had enough and his guess was she was traits the husbands abusive tendencies with some percussive therapy from a skillet. He'd been there a few minutes and had some time to analyze it.

On the one hand he wasn't real sympathetic to the husband and felt a delay for back up was not all bad. On the other hand he was also smart enough to recognize that a single officer responding to a domestic disturbance call is placing himself at significant risk, as the "victim" often turns on the officer when he or she realizes their spouse, paramour, bread winner, etc is going to go to jail. You want at least two officers in that situation.

The moral of the story (other than don't beat your wife or you'll find yourself on the wrong end of a skillet some day) is that officers have the ability to wait for backup and thus minimize their risk when resolving a violent situation.

In contrast, if someone were to break into your house or accosts you on the street and try to assault you or kill you, are already at the scene of the crime. Even if you have time to call 911 for "back up" you will still be on your own dealing with the situation for several minutes, and it will most likely be over before an officer arrives. Even then, if there's a known threat, the initial officer arriving on scene probably isn't going to go rushing in to save you - he'll wait until more officers arrive.

Summary:

As I stated in the beginning, it's a complex topic. There are some serious limitations in armed citizens shoot data, but it's also clear that there are similarities and differences with LEO involved uses of firearms.

It's reasonable to assume that the almost total lack of armed citizen body armor results in more armed citizens being shot and killed.

It's also reasonable to assume that being the potential victim, at the scene of the crime when it is perpetrated increases the risk to the armed citizen relative to a responding officer who will more often than not arrive after it's over.

It's reasonable to assume that the great hesitation that an armed citizen has in shooting, given greater potential criminal and civil liability results in armed citizens being shot and killed in circumstances where earlier and more aggressive action by an officer prevents officer injury and death.

However, it's also reasonable to assume that for armed citizens, like LEOs, having and producing a handgun prevents serious injury and death a significant percentage of the time (based on the massive differences in numbers between officer assaults, the low percentage of injuries from those assaults, and the almost very low number of office deaths resulting from those assaults.

The numbers are further skewed by the reality that an attempted assault may go unreported entirely, or if reported will result in crime reports that do not involve data showing that production or use of a firearm prevented serious injury or death.

The statistics showing the number of times a firearm was used in self defense are very low and are often cited by the anti-gunners a proof that CCW permits are a waste of time. However that data ignore the reality that the data collection only includes the very small percentage of encounters where the firearm was used AND the assailant was actually shot or killed. If someone tries to pull you out of your car at gun point and you produce a gun of your own, causing the attacker to flee before you shoot, the pivotal role of your firearm in preventing a rape, kidnapping or carjacking is not going to be reported in any national data base.

Conclusions:

It's impossible, irresponsible and probably politically motivated to imply that the differences in the rates of injury and deaths between armed citizens and LEOs is due to armed citizens carrying guns and/or to armed citizens not having adequate training.

Don't get me wrong, adequate training is vital and I am in total agreement that most people who carry a firearm for self defense don't practice with it nearly enough, but there are a whole host of other variable that better account for differences in injury and deaths between armed citizens and LEOs.

In fact, looking at the data for assault, injury and deaths for LEOS and the role their service weapon plays in greatly minimizing the number deaths, it's reasonable to assume that a concealed handgun has the same potential preventative effect for concealed carry permit holders as well - we just don't have good sources of data to show the positive effects of concealed carry.

And there is of course no political will to show that kind of positive effect data, as it has never fit the agendas of some administrations (including the Reagan administration), and it does not fit the marching orders of police chiefs who are almost always politically appointed and serving a the whim of city administrators many of whom want to project an anti-gun stance.

Can you define please what you mean by running the gun like a service gun?

I can't hold or effectively fire anything larger than a J-frame or a compact M&P with small grips. So I practice with it and reloading and usually use my J-frame to shoot IDPA just to be comfortable with it and with reloading under at least some pressure. I am typically a much better shot at 7-10 yards than I am at 3-5 although our matches do all ranges even as much as 50-75 yards. And yes I have hit steel at distance with my J-frame but I was slow. Accurate, but slow.

With tiny hands, I wear children's size gloves, I need something I can hold and fire first and foremost.

Very true.

In fact, 97.85 % of all statistics are made up on the spot.

I wonder if Martha Stewart would approve of the "J-frame lifestyle"?

So far it has been fine for me and I try to live the "J frame lifestyle" but feel better with more rounds on board or a gun that's easier to shoot well at speed with SD loads.

There is always a situation that will need more rounds or longer range or some other variable. The chance of needed to use a firearm in SD are pretty low but we still carry, it just up to you how "prepared" you want to be. There are some guys I know that are better armed with a revolver than some others with an AR. As long as you can shoot it well and train with it it's better than nothing, but if I ever get in a SD situation I'm hoping for an M1 Abrams and it's 155.

Ya place yer bet and take your chances.

Not related to J-frames, or revolvers for that matter, but here's a guy (Shield owner) who claims he won't even carry a single stack based on an experience he had -

You are on the right track. A ton of folks "train" by hitting a gigantic silhouette target somewhere at 3 yards at the range and call it good. We hold our students to the black on a B8 bullseye target. It is much easier to work this with a service size gun (pistol or revolver). All the stuff you need to hit to incapacitate another human is in a fist sized area of the chest or head. That does not change based on what you are shooting. You need to be able to work that fist sized area with whatever you are carrying. You will have to work harder at it with a J frame. Shooting IDPA (even though I have some serious issues with a lot of the habits it instills) is very good practice at "shooting somebody else's problem". Essentially, you are not setting some standard around your J frame, you have to meet the standard for everybody.
Again, nothing wrong with the snub for most, but it is only as good as you are, and you need to be real good with them.

Science news and science jobs from New Scientist - New Scientist. October 2009
Don't have any stats from the police law enforcement Expo I was just there in the audience listening to the FBI spokesman. If my stats are off I'm sorry, I'm not a stat guy...

God Almighty! This again! If the subject keeps you awake at night, I suggest you start carrying your AK or AR and at least two bandoliers of 30 round mags.

I would add to the story. If you search the scriptures you will find Goliath had four brothers. David was going to take on all five. One shot, one kill.

Does this statistic include gangster-on-gangster shootings? After all, gangsters are citizens too.

Let's not assume this stat only applies to "law abidng citizen vs. thug".
..........
Update: Just saw your post saying you do not have the data available. No problem.

I still like the idea of living the J- frame lifestyle.

"
I would add to the story. If you search the scriptures you will find Goliath had four brothers. David was going to take on all five. One shot, one kill."

Agreed. Just wanted to make the point that he took what he thought he might need, and used only what he needed! Thanks for your comments.

__________________
So long ... Ken

Unspoken heros in my book. That's a FRONT PAGE story but my money says it was not...

USA made stories , if told , are on the back page in .5 font. I mean really...

Let's know and report "the rest of the story" US Press gun grabbers...

OK, I watched that youtube and came to the opposite conclusion.

The robbers took a few people's wallets in the restaurant and then ran away down the street.

If they had threatened one of the patrons carrying a concealed weapon, they would probably have ran out faster without even a shot fired, if the patron pulled his weapon.

After all they ran off even without hurting anyone even without having a gun pointed at them.

In the very worse case, shooting one of the robbers would have ended it. But like I said, it doesn't sound like even that would have been necessary.

The problem comes because the guy making the youtube followed the bad guys and saw them meet up with a couple others for a total of 8 bad guys and then drive off. He was probably worried (and rightly so) about what would have happened if they saw him following them and turned on him.

He was playing cop more than a private citizen should in that situation. Sure if he is thinking in terms of arresting 8 bad guys at once, then he needs more than a 7 shot gun.

IMHO, he was taking unnecessary risks following and tracking them.

If all he wanted was to get them off his back and away without robbing him or his GF, then pointing a 5 shot J Frame at them would likely been enough. And maybe he wouldn't have had to fire at all.

But, seriously, no I do not worry that 5 is not enough.

During the summer months I carry a J-Frame due to the fact I'm mostly in shorts/summer clothes. I've never felt out-gunned. I do carry at least one speed loader though and I practice with this weapon system.

Consider practicing with the short barrel along with reloading drills. While the J-Frame conceals well, it takes practice with the short barrel to be accurate. There is no such thing as a "free lunch".

JPJ

I agree.

I see very strong shades of George Zimmerman in his thinking.

An armed citizen is greatly exceeding the scope of hie or her authority by following criminals. This guy doing it while his GF is in the car just makes it even worse as he was placing her at risk as well.

Getting and carrying a larger capacity semi-auto will not solve this dude's underlying problem with poor judgement. He should have learned something from this but unfortunately, he reached the wrong conclusion.

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That possibly illustrates another factor - the invincibility factor - that might result in a higher percentage of armed citizens getting shot relative to police officers.

Carrying a gun doesn't give you superpowers and it won't make you invincible no matter how man rounds you carry or how good a shot you are.

Your goal in carrying a firearm for self defense should be strictly for self defense and getting you and your immediate family and loved ones out of imminent danger. If you find yourself crime fighting or moving toward dangerous situations you've just badly misinterpreted what concealed carry is all about.

Even defense of others, who legal in most jurisdictions is very tricky and fraught with legal peril as you usually don't know the totality of the circumstances. Shoot a guy trying to grab a kid from a lady on the street? Congratulations will not be in order when the police discover you've just shot the legal custodial parent recovering his child from the hands of his bat **** crazy ex who had kidnapped the child. You'll be going to jail for a long time.

That's a case where it may be appropriate to call 911 and follow the guy - as a life is at stake, not someone's wallet, but you need to see an imminent threat of life or serious bodily injury before you're able to legitimately shoot.

The big question, Shorty, is - How well do you "run" that Abrams? Does it do you any good if you can't make headshots on a dead run???

Seriously, I'm still trying to digest the fact that my 442 and a speed strip is a "weapon system." I feel under-trained suddenly.

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Because of the metric system?

First thing the guy in the vid had best do is get legal. Don't know about Texas, up here you get caught with a concealed weapon and no CPL, even if you're in the right, you'll wind up cuffed in the back seat of a police cruiser. Second, what difference did capacity make at the end of the day? He never drew/discharged his weapon. Third, and most important, why was this guy playing cop? Especially with his girlfriend in the car. As soon as he called 911, he should've put as much distance between him and the perps as possible. Chances are if this guy had the Glock with extended mag, he'd have played "hero" and waded right into the middle of this to save the day, (spare me). We're likely to hear from this guy again down the road, only it'll be on a news broadcast.

This is strictly a personal choice to me. I've always carried two and will continue as long as the Good Lord allows me to remain on the planet. I do also carry a 5 round speed loader for the J-Frame. For me it's a backup or drawn as a primary when I would be unwise to draw the primary weapon. I do not look or seek out trouble or issues but ole' Mr. Murphy is a funny lad,....... I just prefer to have and not need so to speak.

Agreed, very foolish indeed, carrying without a license, playing undercover cop, AND doing a video on Youtube detailing his experience.

5 rounds is certainly on the low side. It should handle most situations. It's a lot better than 14 rounds in the truck. Since I got my 642 I've went from hardly carrying my compact Glock vs almost always carrying the Smith. That's a win for 5.

We are in the same place. I think the job does that to you when you have seen enough Murphy for several lifetimes.

I agree.

When the guy making the video starts following the robbers when they are running away from the restaurant, then a role reversal occurred.

Then the guy making the video, especially when he is illegally carrying, could be viewed as the aggressor and if a fight broke out, the robbers might be considered as defending themselves with the video guy considered the aggressor.

At least I think that's would be how it would be viewed in California -- although Texas might have different laws.

The video guy is very lucky he wasn't carrying his double stack and tried to intervene, and the girl friend needs to find an new boy friend.

I don't know what's dumber "playing cop" with your girlfriend in the car late at night, or putting a video on the internet saying you routinely "carry concealed without a license".

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NULLI SECUNDUS

Shorts, t-shirt and a J frame April-mid Oct.

Layers, jeans, overcoat, mittens, long johns the rest of the time, with a J.

I never dress around a gun. Carry a large steel gun in summer?

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Sure you did

You got it wrong I'm huddled on the floor telling the crew to take care of the problem.

You just feel that way cause you can't play Call of Duty with your 442 and speed strip.

I dunno, but I was a cop for 21 years. I figure nowadays that if I am in a situation where I need more than 5 shots, I am somewhere I should have avoided in the first place! Sure you may be accosted by a murderous gang of outlaw bikers or whatnot but the chances of that happening rank right there with being hit by a meteor or winning the lottery.

EDC nowadays is a 442 or 60 and maybe one speedstrip. Backup is a clean set of heels!

I carry Two Five shooters every day. I also carry Two Speed loaders and some times add Speed Strips. I never had a problem yet.

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For a primary duty weapon? Yes. Then again, I'd not lose sleep if I were to return to work and was told I'd be carrying a 6-shot full-size revolver again. (My last 3 issued weapons were 7+1, 8+1 & and now 15+1, so it's not like I'm exactly a capacity enthusiast for my own part.)

For a secondary/backup, off-duty or retirement CCW? Not so much. 5 rounds is enough for how I assess my potential risk on my days or nights regarding my normal activities.

Yes, the little 5-shot snubs can be harder to run than larger revolvers and pistols. Hardly surprising. Even some folks who shoot full-size revolvers well can have trouble with the little 5-shot snubs. That's where training, experience and personal judgment come into play.

I seldom see any of the other cops and instructors with whom I work put in any more range time with a snub revolver than may be absolutely required for periodic quals. I've always got at least one of mine that's dirty from being used for training/quals or practice, though.

Why? Because I enjoy shooting them.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I would consider a NAA mini revolver instead of a speed strip if you carry a 5-round J-frame. It's not much larger or heavier than a speed strip, and having 2 guns gives you a lot more options. Being able to draw and fire with either hand could be a difference maker. Also, you have the option of handing your 2nd gun to a friend; now you can cover each other, or split up without one being vulnerable, etc.

The flaw in his thinking with regards to capacity is thinking he's got to have a bullet for each bad guy. Even if the sight of his gun doesn't deter them, they are going to scatter after the first shot.

Sure. I am aware of the realities of armed confrontations. When I carry my J frame I'm concerned if 5 is enough or that my accuracy will be sufficient.

When I carry my Glock 23 I am more concerned about ending the confrontation in the first few rounds (less time for the bad guys return fire to find me).

The only times I have not been overly concerned about which handgun I'm carrying is when I have had a 12 gauge pump in my hands.

Those that carry a deringer...Ever Worry that 2 Isn't Enough? (Many advise you to carry at least a J.)

Those that carry a J...Ever Worry that 5 Isn't Enough? (Many will call you a fool.)

Those that carry a 1911...Ever Worry that 8 Isn't Enough? (Many advise you to carry a spare mag.)

Those that carry a Hi Power...Ever Worry that 14 Isn't Enough? (Many advise you to carry a spare mag.)

Those that carry a G17...Ever Worry that 18 Isn't Enough? (Many advise you to carry a spare mag.)

If you're looking for consensus regarding your PERSONAL comfort level ... you're blowing in the wind and the wind is constantly changing.