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Old 07-08-2015, 04:57 PM
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Default Going Unarmed in the Big City

Even though I qualified for my LEOSA certification on July 1 I had to go unarmed in Philadelphia yesterday. We were going to visit a museum and there was no way I would get in armed, so I chose to put my M&P .380 in the room safe. We had lunch out, went to the museum for a couple of hours then walked back to the hotel all the while w/o my gun. It felt weird but I was never worried. Before going out for dinner later I retrieved the little .380 and it went back in my pocket. I just feel better when I'm ready to defend my wife and or myself. Thank goodness it was not necessary but sometimes you can't have everything.

By the way Philly is a great city.
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Old 07-08-2015, 05:06 PM
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Did you personally choose not to carry into the museum, or was a guard posted? HR 218 allows carry in many places, except courts and probably some I've forgotten. In the big city I carry everywhere. Because at some point, you are back on the street.
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Old 07-08-2015, 05:38 PM
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They have guards posted along w/metal detectors and don't want anyone in there w/a gun except law enforcement. I don't qualify as an LEO anymore. After an experience at the Empire State Building several years ago I decided to leave the gun behind.
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Old 07-08-2015, 05:54 PM
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I just spent 11 days in Colorado unarmed. 4 days in "wild country" and the rest in urban areas. Not one problem and on the trails everybody else was carrying openly. The laws regarding carry need to be reformed and not to create a "new class" of carrier. Maybe the CNN lady and her husband's story will get the ball rolling. Joe
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Old 07-08-2015, 05:59 PM
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I live in suburban Philadelphia. As bug of a city as it is its fairly safe. We have had a lot of gentrification in the last 7 years. All the old war zones that surrounded center city and old city are now upper middle class and the ghettos have moved.

Glad you enjoyed it here. Next time give me a shout if you want.
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Old 07-08-2015, 06:00 PM
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Default HR-218 Limitations

Although the HR-218 law was passed in 2004. we did not get official permission from the department I retired from until 2011 to get the certification. Since then I qualify every June. Every time before we start shooting, we have a classroom session, and each year it seems that we are told that the HR-218 law is getting weaker and weaker. We were told this time that a lot of states and cities will not honor the law and that we will/can be arrested, and not to argue, and go along with the arrest and then use the HR-218 certification card as an affirmative defense when you go before a judge. I personally would not want to go through an arrest, so I always check very carefully before I travel anywhere out of my home state as to what to avoid. A lot of this has to do with anti-gun governors and mayors who don't want anybody to have guns. I think not taking a gun into a museum, or any other similar venue was a good idea. It would not be worth ruining you and your family's trip over an arrest, and the possible court costs and lost time associated with it.
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Old 07-08-2015, 07:49 PM
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Default It is federal law!

Again, more misinformation re: LEOSA. Your instructor(s) is flat out wrong.

It is not the option of state and local governments to disagree with LEOSA.

Personally, I have been LEOSA qualified since 2005. I have carried per LEOSA 99% of the time since then. That includes multiple trips to Chicago, LA, San Francisco, San Diego, NYC (all boroughs and Nassau and Suffolk), Boston, Denver, and other allegedly non-gun friendly locales. More than 25 states right off the top of my head. NEVER AN ISSUE NOR HINT OF A PROBLEM.

Were I in that class I would have asked for specifics and reckon the instructor(s) could not provide any save those instances wherein the LEOSA qualified carrier was involved in another illegal act which led to the arrest.

Be safe.

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Old 07-08-2015, 10:11 PM
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Took in a couple Tiger games in the last few weeks. Carrying in a stadium is prohibited here and entering Comerica Park is not unlike going thru airport security. Empty your pockets, keys, cell phones in the little plastic basket, then thru the metal detector. My piece was secured in a lockbox, cabled to my truck's seat frame. Never felt uneasy at the ball park, but getting down there and back thru Detroit is a whole different story, hence the lock box.
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Old 07-09-2015, 01:17 PM
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Went to Philly with an Active Secret Service agent and we were not permitted into the area that house the Liberty Bell. We looked at it from the exterior. Ok by me. Museum of Natural History in Washington was WAY more accommodating. Secured our weapons for us. You don't want my Firearm, you don't want me either or my money.
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Old 07-09-2015, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big D View Post
Again, more misinformation re: LEOSA. Your instructor(s) is flat out wrong.

It is not the option of state and local governments to disagree with LEOSA.

Personally, I have been LEOSA qualified since 2005. I have carried per LEOSA 99% of the time since then. That includes multiple trips to Chicago, LA, San Francisco, San Diego, NYC (all boroughs and Nassau and Suffolk), Boston, Denver, and other allegedly non-gun friendly locales. More than 25 states right off the top of my head. NEVER AN ISSUE NOR HINT OF A PROBLEM.

Were I in that class I would have asked for specifics and reckon the instructor(s) could not provide any save those instances wherein the LEOSA qualified carrier was involved in another illegal act which led to the arrest.

Be safe.
The instructors that give us the certification are current/active police officers who also teach firearms in the academy. They are very much in the know. There have been incidents (which you can find on the internet) where LEOS have been arrested with HR-218 credentials for strictly carrying a concealed handgun, not convicted, but had to go through the court process. My question to you, "Did you get stopped in the New York City area or any of the other areas you went through and got questioned about carrying a concealed handgun? If so did the Police Officer say "no problem your covered". The Federal HR-218 Law is not an automatic free pass to carry everywhere. Again it is better to think "If there is any doubt, go without". That is the point I was making, and in agreement with leaving your gun behind when you are not sure what may happen.
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Old 07-09-2015, 03:23 PM
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LOL ....... what about...... Federal law vs. Sanctuary Cities

For about the first 20 years I had a Pa carry permit ( issued by my county of residence) ...... Phily didn't recognize any permits but their own......IIRC it took a change in the Pa. Constitution to get them to recognize the rest of the State.

We've offered Phily to NJ ...... but no takers.
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Old 07-09-2015, 04:48 PM
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I have been carrying under the LEOSA for at least the last 8 years. I meet all the requirements, adhere to the restrictions, and carry everywhere it is legal for me to do so.
Who are these officers who run around arresting retired LEO, depriving them of their freedom and their personal property (I assume the guns are seized as evidence), absent probable cause? Have none of these falsely arrested retired officers sued for false arrest, unlawful imprisonment, etc.? I'm not sue happy but if you arrest me knowing I am guilty of no crime I'll be seeking an attorney looking to get into some of those "deep pockets".
I never arrested someone without probable cause of them having committed a crime. I never witnessed, or heard, of any of my co-workers knowingly arresting someone guilty of no crime. If I was "victimized" in such a manner I would seek any civil remedy available.
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Old 07-09-2015, 05:04 PM
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Who ever is teaching that really doesn't understand the law. Doesn't matter if they're teaching firearms at the academy. They've fired too many rds without ear protection.
Every law is an affirmative defense situation. Shooting anyone is against the law in every state. However, it's an affirmative defense if the person is threatening you with great bodily harm or death. That's what an affirmative defense is. If you commit an act prohibited by law then an affirmative defense is one of the exceptions which you would bring in your defense. No law is an "automatic free pass". If the firearms instructors don't understand that then they should stick with sending bullets downrange and leave the legal stuff to those who know. Here's a bit of a revelation from someone who was in LE for 42 yrs and saw all kinds on the job - just because they're teaching at an academy doesn't mean they know diddly squat. Don't believe them just because they're assigned to the academy and particularly if they're assigned to the range.
As Big D says ask them to show you the cites. Internet stories are just that - stories. Very rarely when all the facts are known are the internet stories anywhere near the truth. I was actively involved with researching LEOSA since it was passed in 2004. There have been some arrests which usually involved the carrier involved in other prohibited activities.
As far as LEOSA "getting weaker" - show me the examples. Otherwise the instructors are doing nothing more than repeating internet stories and rumors. Cops are worse than old ladies for repeating and believing rumors.
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Old 07-09-2015, 05:07 PM
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It is good practice to not carry a gun in a major NE city unless you have a license to do so. That said, if you're in NYC, you might as well not carry anything that even LOOKS like a weapon if you're going into a museum, office building, whatever. Guards and metal detectors are everywhere - those North Eastern city folks are PARANOID!!! Never mind anti-weapon of any kind, including pocket knives.

Upstate NY is much more pleasant..........
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Old 07-09-2015, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Model39 View Post
...... each year it seems that we are told that the HR-218 law is getting weaker and weaker.

We were told this time that a lot of states and cities will not honor the law and that we will/can be arrested, and not to argue, and go along with the arrest and then use the HR-218 certification card as an affirmative defense when you go before a judge. .

All he seems to be saying is....... you will/can be arrested and processed....... do not pass go ..... do not get a pass...no professional recognition/courtesy ....you will see a judge.
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Old 07-09-2015, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
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All he seems to be saying is....... you will/can be arrested and processed....... do not pass go ..... do not get a pass...no professional recognition/courtesy ....you will see a judge.
I don't doubt for a minute that he was told that if he says he was. My point is that this has nothing to do with professional recognition/courtesy. I'm not asking that I be "cut some slack" due to my prior profession. What I'm saying is regardless of anyone's personal opinion you cannot (without consequence) arrest someone, and seize their personal property, without probable cause that they have committed a crime.
I can't believe that any retired LEO, that qualifies for LEOSA status, would suffer such treatment without seeking restitution afterwards. We've all (I hope) protected the rights of others, while working, why in the world would we not protect our own after retirement.
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Old 07-09-2015, 08:20 PM
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I am a PA resident. PA has some of the best gun laws in the nation. That said, Philly does everything it can to make the lives of gun owners as hard as they can (which isn't that much, since PA has a statewide pre-emption law).

It is interesting to read this thread. I am not an LEO, though I do have some friends and family in LE. There was a news story a while back about a Pennsylvania State Constable (who are covered fully under LEOSA) getting arrested in Manhattan for his legally carried pistol. From what I recall, it took a legal proceeding to get charges dropped. But he was treated like a criminal by the NYPD, apparently.

I think NY and NJ are probably the most difficult places for ANYONE to carry a firearm. In those states, LEO's are trained to treat the mere sight of every gun as an instant and immediate threat. In Pennsylvania, my openly carried S&W model 58 hasn't caused a single problem, even when seen by uniformed LEOs. I suspect the places like NJ and NY are mostly responsible for any apprehension LEOSA carriers have when carrying into other places, since going to those states is akin to crossing over the wrong side of the Berlin Wall.
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Old 07-09-2015, 08:35 PM
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Default You are getting really bad instruction.

Ask your instructors for cites. Please. They will be unable to provide them. Truly. PS: they are NOT 'in the know.'

Be safe.

Quote:
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The instructors that give us the certification are current/active police officers who also teach firearms in the academy. They are very much in the know. There have been incidents (which you can find on the internet) where LEOS have been arrested with HR-218 credentials for strictly carrying a concealed handgun, not convicted, but had to go through the court process. My question to you, "Did you get stopped in the New York City area or any of the other areas you went through and got questioned about carrying a concealed handgun? If so did the Police Officer say "no problem your covered". The Federal HR-218 Law is not an automatic free pass to carry everywhere. Again it is better to think "If there is any doubt, go without". That is the point I was making, and in agreement with leaving your gun behind when you are not sure what may happen.
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Old 07-09-2015, 08:49 PM
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Default Whilst I am at it..

...why don't you do the research of which you seem to be familiar and provide us the info in support of your bogus post...[QUOTE=Model39;138616130 There have been incidents (which you can find on the internet) where LEOS have been arrested with HR-218 credentials for strictly carrying a concealed handgun, not convicted, but had to go through the court process..[/QUOTE]

I guarantee we will be waiting quite a while...

Be safe.
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Old 07-09-2015, 08:51 PM
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Going Unarmed in the Big City

it sucks...
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Old 07-09-2015, 08:57 PM
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Here is a Supreme Court of NY Decision and Order, documenting the arrest of a PA Constable, and his subsequent criminal charge of a possession of a weapon of the third degree.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/a...sRodriguez.PDF

In the end, he was found not guilty (Under LEOSA). The fact is, he was arrested, treated like a criminal, and CHARGED with a weapons crime.

I do believe this happens occasionally in places like NY and NJ.
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Old 07-09-2015, 09:04 PM
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Default Old news...

...and hardly well settled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by American1776 View Post
Here is a Supreme Court of NY Decision and Order, documenting the arrest of a PA Constable, and his subsequent criminal charge of a possession of a weapon of the third degree.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/a...sRodriguez.PDF

In the end, he was found not guilty (Under LEOSA). The fact is, he was arrested, treated like a criminal, and CHARGED with a weapons crime.

I do believe this happens occasionally in places like NY and NJ.
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Old 07-09-2015, 10:02 PM
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I'm a former LEO but I didn't retire. I left after 6 years to embark on a college teaching career (paid significantly more) so I don't believe i qualify for LEOSA. However, I have a concealed carry permit issued by the State of Arizona. i don't carry where prohibited, nor would I carry in State that doesn't have a reciprocal ccw agreement with Arizona.
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Old 07-09-2015, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ispcapt View Post
Who ever is teaching that really doesn't understand the law. Doesn't matter if they're teaching firearms at the academy. They've fired too many rds without ear protection.
Every law is an affirmative defense situation. Shooting anyone is against the law in every state. However, it's an affirmative defense if the person is threatening you with great bodily harm or death. That's what an affirmative defense is. If you commit an act prohibited by law then an affirmative defense is one of the exceptions which you would bring in your defense. No law is an "automatic free pass". If the firearms instructors don't understand that then they should stick with sending bullets downrange and leave the legal stuff to those who know. Here's a bit of a revelation from someone who was in LE for 42 yrs and saw all kinds on the job - just because they're teaching at an academy doesn't mean they know diddly squat. Don't believe them just because they're assigned to the academy and particularly if they're assigned to the range.
As Big D says ask them to show you the cites. Internet stories are just that - stories. Very rarely when all the facts are known are the internet stories anywhere near the truth. I was actively involved with researching LEOSA since it was passed in 2004. There have been some arrests which usually involved the carrier involved in other prohibited activities.
As far as LEOSA "getting weaker" - show me the examples. Otherwise the instructors are doing nothing more than repeating internet stories and rumors. Cops are worse than old ladies for repeating and believing rumors.
I agree with the Captain. Just because someone is in a training position,doesn't always mean that they are correct. Remember the old adage "Those who can - do. Those who can't- teach !" Most instructors are great....others can believe that they are infallible and are the ultimate source of all knowledge whether they know anything or not.
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Old 07-09-2015, 10:40 PM
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Hey, exdetsgt!!! You are sure welcome here in West Virginia. We honor Arizona's permits here. I too have a law enforcement and academic background. Worked for 22 years in LE,and taught as an adjunct for 18 of those years. Retired in 1997 to take a full time teaching position at Fairmont State University in their Criminal Justice department. Been there full time for 18 years now (currently with Pieont Community and Technical College). I qualify every year for LEOSA. Also have a WV permit and a Florida permit. Sort of like belt and suspenders kind of a guy. Also, if I am a few days over my yearly qualification date the permits cover me in most states. WV has quite a number of reciprocal agreements now. Anyway, I carry most of the time especially when traveling. Exceptions are where they actually have real security, and check everyone through a metal detector. Just putting a decal on a door as you know is not 'security'!
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Old 07-10-2015, 10:26 AM
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les.b: No, it's not. Our city hall has a small sign on the entrance door that says, "All firearms must be put in a lock box." How many comply with this directive is anyone's guess. And it's good to know W.VA. honors AZ permits. Morgantown here I come!
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Old 07-10-2015, 11:17 AM
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I appreciate everyone posting their experiences when traveling to different locations. I normally carry everywhere due to the LEOSA certification and am not likely to change that. What I don't want is a hassle or worse to be arrested b/c someone does not understand LEOSA. If I go to a sporting event or other locality w/security I'll leave the gun behind somewhere just to avoid problems that could be very expensive.
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Old 07-11-2015, 11:03 AM
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I am not a big sports fan, but sporting events are prohibited carry locations in Texas, so if i want to watch one i will do without or
watch on TV. I consider such places as just another gun free
zone waiting for something bad to happen. The third jihadist
at Garland, had been planning an attack on a stadium I think
but was let go by some judge who said there was not enough
evidence.
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Old 07-11-2015, 11:22 AM
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I'm amused at the retired officers who would lead anyone to believe that some policemen don't make mistakes regarding arrest. They can, and do since LEOs are human too. There is also the component regarding Mayors edicts and City Managers and Police Commissioners orders and policies.
I believe there was an incident with a little trouble in Baltimore recently...
You don't get to use an affirmative defense until court. Until court, it's a hassle.
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Old 07-11-2015, 11:28 AM
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Old TexMex: You got that right, sir.
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Old 07-11-2015, 11:51 AM
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Please accept my apologies if I have, (by saying that), inadvertently offended ANY law enforcement officer, active or retired. Be aware I have utmost respect for those men and women who take the oath and responsibility to serve and protect.
Jim
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Old 07-11-2015, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by The Big D View Post
...why don't you do the research of which you seem to be familiar and provide us the info in support of your bogus post...

I guarantee we will be waiting quite a while...

Be safe.
Here are three cases pretty easily found, of examples where the hassle ensued.

People v Rodreguiz

Benjamin Booth Jr.

Jose Diaz USCG



All arrested, all charged all, eventually absolved. But not without court.
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Old 07-11-2015, 01:46 PM
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Although the HR-218 law was passed in 2004. we did not get official permission from the department I retired from until 2011 to get the certification. Since then I qualify every June. Every time before we start shooting, we have a classroom session, and each year it seems that we are told that the HR-218 law is getting weaker and weaker. We were told this time that a lot of states and cities will not honor the law and that we will/can be arrested, and not to argue, and go along with the arrest and then use the HR-218 certification card as an affirmative defense when you go before a judge. I personally would not want to go through an arrest, so I always check very carefully before I travel anywhere out of my home state as to what to avoid. A lot of this has to do with anti-gun governors and mayors who don't want anybody to have guns. I think not taking a gun into a museum, or any other similar venue was a good idea. It would not be worth ruining you and your family's trip over an arrest, and the possible court costs and lost time associated with it.
You are obviously from NY using terms like "affirmative defense". 18 USC 926B & C are not "affirmative defenses". It is US federal law.

Is 19 USC 1589(a)(1) an affirmative defense for me carrying a firearm and I'm just lucky that no state or local wants to book me?

You can be arrested for anything, doesn't make it legal. Plenty of "out of staters" have been arrested for driving down the road in years past. Are you not going to drive?

I hear what you are saying but it's ridiculous. PS don't worry about ruining a vacation, if you get falsely arrested you will get plenty of money for another one.
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Old 07-11-2015, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Old TexMex View Post
Here are three cases pretty easily found, of examples where the hassle ensued.

People v Rodreguiz

Benjamin Booth Jr.

Jose Diaz USCG



All arrested, all charged all, eventually absolved. But not without court.
And all of them are old and frankly were really pushing it. Which actually shows how strong the law is.
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Old 07-11-2015, 03:43 PM
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so they do exist, these officers who are fallible, or have they been legislated out of existence? I doubt very much that.
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Old 07-12-2015, 09:37 AM
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We've all (I hope) protected the rights of others, while working, why in the world would we not protect our own after retirement.
Sadly, my fear is being stopped by an officer who is not versed on HR218. We all know (private citizens know as well) not all police officers are "law" savvy. Nonetheless, I believe the vast majority of we old timers still use common sense; regarding when it may be a good time not to carry into a facility. Isn't it strange we are talking about concerns from brother officers, compared to the fears of the criminal element on the streets to do us harm. Is the thin blue line being erased between retirees and the new generation of officers?
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Old 07-12-2015, 10:08 AM
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Is the thin blue line being erased between retirees and the new generation of officers?
It sure seems that way at times. The brotherhood is not what it once was.

My understanding is that HR218 exempts qualified active and retired LE from state and local laws regarding carrying a firearm. So if you are arrested pursuant to a state or local law it is an unlawful arrest. And it doesn't matter if the local leaders don't like it. I think you would have a solid law suit but would have to endure the hassle first.
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Old 07-12-2015, 10:50 AM
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It sure seems that way at times. The brotherhood is not what it once was.

My understanding is that HR218 exempts qualified active and retired LE from state and local laws regarding carrying a firearm. So if you are arrested pursuant to a state or local law it is an unlawful arrest. And it doesn't matter if the local leaders don't like it. I think you would have a solid law suit but would have to endure the hassle first.
+1 on both statements.
HR218 isn't probably very well understood by some of the rank and file.
I also see LE brotherhood not what it once was. I believe in professional courtesy in LE if that's what you want to call it.
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Old 07-12-2015, 10:58 AM
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As to the LEO brotherhood & professional courtesy I met a couple of Philly cops during our visit and no one was the least bit interested to ask if I was armed. I even met a retired Philly cop working at the hotel, nice guy & very helpful.
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Old 07-12-2015, 11:45 AM
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I was basing my statement on a few observations but more so on what I've heard officers (both current and retired/former) comment.
I think this applies to mostly the younger officers.
I bet that if a good portion of the local constabulary were asked about the Law Enforcement Protection Act, their answer would be "huh?"
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Old 07-12-2015, 12:29 PM
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A friend of mine retired as an area commander from the local sheriff's office after 28 years of active service. He bought a new motorcycle and decided to take a trip around the periphery of the US, something he'd always wanted to do. He headed East out of Arizona, passed through the Gulf states and then proceeded up the Atlantic coast.

In South Carolina he was going 60 in a 55mph zone and got pulled over by a motorcycle officer. The officer wrote him a ticket ("that's how we make our money around here"). Then he asked my friend if he had a firearm. "Yes, I'm a retired officer," and showed him his credentials and quoted from HR218. The officer said, "that's all BS," took his firearm and ordered him to follow the officer to the station.

Fortunately the captain on duty was familiar with the law and told the arresting officer, "He's right. Give him back his weapon." But wouldn't dismiss the 5-over speeding ticket. This was not the SC State Police but a local city PD that the interstate happened to run through.
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Old 07-12-2015, 02:33 PM
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Guys, the retired officers who were arrested while carrying under HR 218 suffered the same as any other citizen would. The fact is some officers don't make the effort to know their job and/or have supervisors didn't make the effort to ensure that their officers know their job. It has nothing to do with "professional courtesy", it's about competency in your job. HR218 has been strengthened, not weakened since it's passage.

If a former LEO is arrested in violation of HR218 they have the same option as any other citizen who is falsely arrested, settle it in court, both criminally and civil.

I've seen ill trained or uninformed officers for 20 years and it isn't going away as long as we have humans involved. I have 2 1/2 years until I plan to pull the plug. When I do I will carry anywhere I lawfully can under 218.
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Old 07-12-2015, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by JamesArthur60 View Post
Sadly, my fear is being stopped by an officer who is not versed on HR218. We all know (private citizens know as well) not all police officers are "law" savvy. Nonetheless, I believe the vast majority of we old timers still use common sense; regarding when it may be a good time not to carry into a facility. Isn't it strange we are talking about concerns from brother officers, compared to the fears of the criminal element on the streets to do us harm. Is the thin blue line being erased between retirees and the new generation of officers?
I agree, as Old Tex Mex has noted, and everyone knows, police officers are human and sometimes make mistakes. I also agree that there are probably many working officers unfamiliar with LEOSA (HR218). I would not be a happy camper if I was arrested and my gun seized. But I won't let that possibility prevent me from legally carrying my gun.
I didn't read the 3 cases cited completely but if my "quick scan" of them left me with correct impressions 2 involved Coast Guard officers and one a Constable. The cases cited deal, in large part, on whether those positions qualify under LEOSA. In one of the cases the officer was Driving While Suspended, a crime (not civil infraction) in many states. I don't believe the LEOSA protects a retired officer when they are committing a crime while carrying.
My retirement identification is identical to the commission identification carried by deputies in the S.O. I retired from except it has "RETIRED" printed across the face. It has my picture, thumb print, physical description, retirement date, etc. My LEOSA ID card has "Retired Law Enforcement Officer Firearms Qualification Card" across the top of the front, Department Letter Head, weapon type(s) used in qualification, date of qualification, Range Officer signature with personnel number, S.O. phone number, and cites LEOSA OF 2004 (HR218) by Title, Chapter, and Section on the back of the ID. I don't believe there is much more that could be done, by me or the S.O., to prove that I can legally carry concealed by Federal Law.
If I was contacted by an officer and there was a question as to my legal status to carry I would respectfully request the officer contact a supervisor for clarification. If the officer wanted me to go to the station, office, precinct, etc. I would respectfully ask if I was under arrest and accompany them if I was or decline if I was not. If we need to confer personally with a supervisor he/she can respond to the location of the contact.
I would not be a pita or argumentative. We've probably all been in situations at work where we were uncertain and needed advice on how to proceed. One of my sons is a LEO. But, if you're going to detain me for an excessive amount of time, insist that I accompany you to another location, and seize my personal property (for more than a short time for officer safety), you need to place me under arrest. I will then readily comply with all requests, directions, and orders.
As I stated before, as soon as I'm bailed out, recog'd, or whatever I will seek legal counsel and any civil remedy possible.
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Old 07-12-2015, 04:26 PM
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That is one reason why I do not travel outside of KS. Not only do we have constitutional carry, but we have a law that says anyone with a LEOSA permit can carry anywhere an active officer can. Which is anywhere but a jail, specific courtroom, or penitentiary.
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Old 07-12-2015, 05:50 PM
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Why, may I ask, are retired LEO's considered a "special class?" Perhaps the job I held before my retirement was just as critical in protecting the population from harm, and I may have been at risk of life or limb on a daily basis. Perhaps I was an infantryman in an active war zone, or a covert intelligence agent overseas. Under either of these scenarios I believe that my riskswould be equal to or greater than any LEO. But since I did not carry a badge, even though I swore the same oath to"... preserve, protect and defend the Constitution ..." I am not afforded special protection under federal laws like Barney Fife would be. Sorry, but I do not believe in special favors for any subgroup of law-abiding citizenry. If a law is good for some, it should be good for all. I read of some of you grumping because someone you know, who is a retired LEO, was held accountable for running afoul of some inane law that we, the rest of the citizenry have to deal with on a daily basis. That you might expect "professional courtesy" for your minor transgressions is the height of hypocrisy. And furthermore, we ALL need to recognize we get our rights from being alive, NOT from the grants of the government. The Constitution is intended to be a chain binding the overreaching arms of the government, preventing the government from committing mischief against its citizens.

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Old 07-12-2015, 06:02 PM
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All he seems to be saying is....... you will/can be arrested and processed....... do not pass go ..... do not get a pass...no professional recognition/courtesy ....you will see a judge.
I seemed to have started the "professional courtesy" thing........as my boys would say "my bad".....

What I meant is that...... before I arrest or detain a documented retired officer...... I will make an effort to figure it out (if I don't know).......... vs. arrest and pass the buck and let someone else figure it out..... today I see too much "it's not my job/I don't care"..... I'll make it someone else's problem.

If I don't know I'd take the gun and maybe put you in the back seat......... but use common sense.... please.

JD the Congress saw fit to established this "special class" ........... if you are a retired "spook" speak to your congressman ....... until then be Covert

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Old 07-12-2015, 06:30 PM
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LOL ....... what about...... Federal law vs. Sanctuary Cities
For about the first 20 years I had a Pa carry permit ( issued by my county of residence) ...... Phily didn't recognize any permits but their own......IIRC it took a change in the Pa. Constitution to get them to recognize the rest of the State.
We've offered Phily to NJ ...... but no takers.
Do you know when the " change " in the constitution occurred? I had always been told by issuing agency, Bucks Co, Sheriffs Dept, that the CCW was valid any where in Pa. I had often "heard" it was not valid in Philly, but nothing I found ( pre internet ) documented it. My research could have been lacking and the agency could have given me incorrect information, thats why I would like an approximate time for the change. Be Safe,
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Old 07-12-2015, 06:42 PM
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Do you know when the " change " in the constitution occurred? I had always been told by issuing agency, Bucks Co, Sheriffs Dept, that the CCW was valid any where in Pa. I had often "heard" it was not valid in Philly, but nothing I found ( pre internet ) documented it. My research could have been lacking and the agency could have given me incorrect information, thats why I would like an approximate time for the change. Be Safe,
Want to say early/mid 60s........ but believe there was a court case in the late 70s/early 80s...... slapping down Phila. bs.
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Old 07-12-2015, 07:02 PM
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I know that there are a lot of dubious web sites out there with information on the subject of LEOSA, but the one, Police Magazine, with an article by one of the NRA's attorneys seems to have some validity, even though it may raise more questions than it provides answers to. Does the LEOSA Carry Law Apply to You? - Article - POLICE Magazine Hope that the link pasted ok.
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Old 07-12-2015, 07:13 PM
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Also wanted to say that I basically agree with JDBoardman above, that although I may qualify under LEOSA, that does not necessarily mean that I don't believe that other law abiding citizens should not have the same rights. Here in West Virginia this year, the state senate and house unanimously passed 'Constitutional Carry', that would have addressed that very issue (at least in this state). But the Governor in his infinite wisdom, vetoed the bill. Still, we have what I think are pretty fair concealed carry laws here, and have reciprocity with something like 38 other states. In addition to my LEOSA credentials, I also have a WV CC permit, and one from Florida.
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