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  #1  
Old 07-09-2015, 08:47 AM
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Default Guns In Vehicles: Don't Do It.

The subject of guns in vehicles comes up all the time. You may even buy holsters or gun holders intended for "car carry." I always advise people not to leave guns in vehicles for any reason. As the firearms custodian for a federal law enforcement agency, I can attest that, nationwide, we've lost many guns stolen from vehicles, including at least a half dozen Remington 870s to be used at the range on the day they were stolen. And, we were a small law enforcement agency.

This brings us to the July 1st. fatal shooting of Kate Steinle on the San Francisco Pier by an illegal alien. The gun used was stolen from the parked vehicle of a federal agent assigned to the Bureau of Land Management.

First, if that was your gun, you now have to live with the fact you have unwittingly initiated a chain of events leading to the loss of life. Then, there's a question of potential civil liability. If I'm injured or killed with a lawfully owned firearm that was stored in a negligent manner, do I, or my next-of-kin have a cause of action? I would think so.

The circumstances under which a gun may be safely left in vehicles should be limited to when you are in direct sight of your vehicle, such as through a diner window or perhaps while you attend a little league ball game. In the case in question, the vehicle was broken into. More often, the vehicle itself is stolen. So, think twice about guns in vehicles. I don't know the extent of civil responsibility but I do know that I'm morally responsible if I allow a gun to get into the wrong hands.
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Old 07-09-2015, 08:54 AM
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If he was on "Official Business", why would he have left his "Duty Gun" in the car?

Makes me wonder why did he leave his gun in his car, and why he didn't take it with him.
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Old 07-09-2015, 09:09 AM
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MY house can be broken into. A butcher knife can be stolen and used to kill someone. My car can be stolen and used to run someone over. An armed mugger could get the drop on me and disarm me.

I'm not morally responsible for the actions of criminals that I don't willingly abet.
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Old 07-09-2015, 09:10 AM
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That's a ridiculous argument.

Don't leave guns at home they may break in and steal them.

You're not liable for a criminal act just like manufacturers of impliments of evil. Neither are the gun shops or merchants of death responsible.
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Old 07-09-2015, 09:18 AM
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This is the type of reasoning that leads to "sensable gun control" and in my opinion is fundamentally wrong.
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Old 07-09-2015, 09:27 AM
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Apparently you people have never had a car looted.Grab a brick,bust the window and clean it out.Takes 15 seconds and they are gone,think about it.
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Old 07-09-2015, 09:31 AM
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I understand you are sincere and wish to possibly save someone the anguish you might feel in such an incident but I respectfully disagree that anyone is morally responsible for the actions of another who steals a weapon LOCKED in your car or in your home. You are entitled to feel that way if you wish but I think the position is indefensible if applied to others. If taken to extremes that philosophy will effectively end private ownership of almost anything that could be used as a weapon. Let's place the blame, both morally and legally, where it really belongs.
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Old 07-09-2015, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay View Post
Apparently you people have never had a car looted.Grab a brick,bust the window and clean it out.Takes 15 seconds and they are gone,think about it.
I have a safe that's cabled to the seat post. I can keep it safe my problem is access. Yea you can get into it but it'll take more time than the average smash and grabber might want to spend. I can open the combo without looking but need to reach back and do it.
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Old 07-09-2015, 09:59 AM
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Default Reality check

Tell it to the judge in the civil proceedings. "Your Honor, I was going to take a shower, and didn't want my firearm in the bathroom with me, so I locked it in my car. Who would ever think my car would be broken into."

Regardless to the feelings of guilt (I'm no one to judge anothers morality) just the economics and time loss as a result of Federalis scenario should be recognized.

He was quite specific: auto burglary aspect of gun storage.

As for the snarky comments directed to a law enforcement officer, I believe we have some standards on this forum regarding that.
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Old 07-09-2015, 10:00 AM
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I've have home and car cleaned out. No, I have no moral concern about what happens to things that they steal from me. They are the criminals, and should bear all the responsibility.
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Old 07-09-2015, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by hoc9sw View Post
I've have home and car cleaned out. No, I have no moral concern about what happens to things that they steal from me. They are the criminals, and should bear all the responsibility.
They should bear the full responsibility, but will they?
In a civil suit? Brought by a deep pocket anti like Bloomburg?
Roll the dice.
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Old 07-09-2015, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by federali View Post
As the firearms custodian for a federal law enforcement agency, I can attest that, nationwide, we've lost many guns stolen from vehicles, including at least a half dozen Remington 870s to be used at the range on the day they were stolen. And, we were a small law enforcement agency.


The circumstances under which a gun may be safely left in vehicles should be limited to when you are in direct sight of your vehicle, such as through a diner window or perhaps while you attend a little league ball game.
Mr. Firearms Custodian,
I ONLY leave my gun in my car when I arrive at a place that is posted to not allow them.
So now would you like to rethink who's responsible and maybe look to gun laws that require that upstanding citizens who are licensed to carry should be able to sue those businesses and government locations that do not allow us to carry on their premises?

I am always uncomfortable leaving my gun in the car and do not do so lightly, so what say that you, in your capacity of Firearms Custodian, actively work to change the laws that require me to be irresponsible?
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Old 07-09-2015, 10:33 AM
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All I know is that if it had been my gun that was stolen and used, my name would be all over the news and media would be camped at my door.

It must be good to have the protection of fellow LEO's.
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Old 07-09-2015, 10:39 AM
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I don't leave a gun in the PU unless I have to go somewhere it's illegal to carry. (Post office, etc..) And when I do they are locked in a nano vault attached to the floor. That way I'm "covered" legally so to speak. Someone could break in and steel it but that would take awhile and if you all could see my little truck there's very little chance it will be boosted. (Read run down and used with a dinky 4cylinder that's still running.)

Last edited by Shorty 45 MK2; 07-09-2015 at 07:37 PM. Reason: Typo.
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Old 07-09-2015, 10:39 AM
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I was indeed specifically referring to firearms left in vehicles. If you can accept the premise that all legitimate firearms begin life as a legally manufactured and legally owned instruments, eventually, some of those firearms end up in criminal hands and it's the criminal misuse of firearms that now has a number of well-funded groups trying to disarm all of us. It's just a matter of each of us doing our part to minimize the number of guns at risk of theft.

The country is averaging 700,000 auto thefts annually and I was born, raised and lived and worked in a city averaging more than 200 auto thefts daily. So, my thoughts are a bit more jaundiced than those of you lucky enough to live in areas with little crime.

And here's a no-brainer: don't leave your handgun in the nightstand if you're not at home.

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Old 07-09-2015, 10:53 AM
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Federali, thanks for dealing in reality, rather than an imagined world where only the criminal is blamed.
I might not feel bad about what a car thief does with my firearm, but I'd sure feel bad when I lost my home to pay for a civil case defense.

Agee that the nonsense of gun free zones is why we're forced to leave our firearms in our vehicle, but it is what it is until we get the changes made.
Until that day comes....I'm not setting myself up to be used by anti gunners who use the "stolen gun scenario" as a reason to disarm me.
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Old 07-09-2015, 11:01 AM
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A lot of folks I know have guns in their vehicles.

In Tennessee it's legal to have a loaded gun in the car without a carry permit. Obviously all those guns must remain in the vehicle when parked somewhere other than at home. There may have been, but I haven't heard of anyone being prosecuted in Tennessee because of a gun stolen out of their vehicle. Why blame the victim?
Prosecutor: Why did you leave the gun in the vehicle at Walmart?
Defendant: Because it would have been illegal to carry it out of the vehicle.

Not that long ago a Hendersonville, TN LEO had a gun stolen out of his patrol car parked at home in the driveway overnight. He wasn't charged with anything. And he wasn't in violation of any department policy.

As far as a moral issue... that's something only a man can answer for himself. For me, I feel no moral responsibility for the actions of criminals. Self-flagellation over the actions of others is highly overrated IMO.

ps. The gun someone has in their car might just save their life one day.

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Old 07-09-2015, 11:19 AM
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I always though that your "protection permit" was good for giving you the right to conceal your firearm on your body. you need to be in control of your fire arm at all times when you carry it.
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Old 07-09-2015, 11:31 AM
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So, not to be really sarcastic, maybe just a little, how does one move across the country if they have guns? Obviously not many can drive the many hours straight without stopping for sleep or to eat or to use the facilities. So that being said, you have your gun collection of, say, 50 guns in your vehicle while moving, do you put them all in a big bag and take them with you when you go to use the restroom or get a drink? This type of post it great fuel for anti gunners as it follows their way of thinking, that gun owners should be held criminally or at the very least, in a civil manner, as to who uses one of their guns that was acquired illegally.
So, to agree with another poster, if your car is stolen and it is used in any crime, then you are responsible. If you have medication stolen, and it is sold on the street still in the prescription bottle you had it in, then you are guilty of trafficking, if someone steals your credit card and then uses it for some huge purchase, then you should pay since you didn't keep it locked up and safe. Ridiculous? Yes! But that is the same premise you are posing, that someone takes something of yours and uses it wrongly, then you should be held responsible. Sad, really, that the word responsibility is slowly becoming obsolete. Blame it on someone else....
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Old 07-09-2015, 11:40 AM
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Unless your state law states otherwise, a locked vehicle is secured as it takes forcible entry to break in. There is no liability with forced entry.

It may not be the best manner of secured, but neither is any safe less than Fort Knox, KY.
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Old 07-09-2015, 12:02 PM
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No one said you "should" be held criminally responsible for the criminal misuse of your stolen property, I said that you "could" be held civilly responsible. There's a big difference. We live in a wonderful nation where anyone can sue anyone else for anything.

I'm now retired but during my tenure, I had a high security clearance, protected two American presidents, several foreign dignitaries and a key witness with a seven-figure price tag on his head. Since retiring, I'm now covered by "common Sense" gun laws and I can no longer be trusted carrying a handgun in schools, public buildings, houses of worship in some states, and private businesses in states where those businesses may limit firearms possession. While I'm a total 2nd Amendment advocate, I must abide by the silly laws imposed on us. If I can't legally carry a gun where I'm going, I don't carry it. For me, leaving a gun in a car is not an option.

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Old 07-09-2015, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by federali View Post
The subject of guns in vehicles comes up all the time. You may even buy holsters or gun holders intended for "car carry." I always advise people not to leave guns in vehicles for any reason. As the firearms custodian for a federal law enforcement agency, I can attest that, nationwide, we've lost many guns stolen from vehicles, including at least a half dozen Remington 870s to be used at the range on the day they were stolen. And, we were a small law enforcement agency.

This brings us to the July 1st. fatal shooting of Kate Steinle on the San Francisco Pier by an illegal alien. The gun used was stolen from the parked vehicle of a federal agent assigned to the Bureau of Land Management.

First, if that was your gun, you now have to live with the fact you have unwittingly initiated a chain of events leading to the loss of life. Then, there's a question of potential civil liability. If I'm injured or killed with a lawfully owned firearm that was stored in a negligent manner, do I, or my next-of-kin have a cause of action? I would think so.

The circumstances under which a gun may be safely left in vehicles should be limited to when you are in direct sight of your vehicle, such as through a diner window or perhaps while you attend a little league ball game. In the case in question, the vehicle was broken into. More often, the vehicle itself is stolen. So, think twice about guns in vehicles. I don't know the extent of civil responsibility but I do know that I'm morally responsible if I allow a gun to get into the wrong hands.
I respectfully disagree with you.

NC
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Old 07-09-2015, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by federali View Post
If I can't legally carry a gun where I'm going, I don't carry it. For me, leaving a gun in a car is not an option.
If you don't want to be in a position of having to leave a gun in the car for any reason thus leave your gun at home, fine for you. But the notion of "I always advise people not to leave guns in vehicles for any reason" could very well leave the gun owner defenseless and dead after taking your advice.

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Old 07-09-2015, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Photog View Post
So, not to be really sarcastic, maybe just a little, how does one move across the country if they have guns? Obviously not many can drive the many hours straight without stopping for sleep or to eat or to use the facilities. So that being said, you have your gun collection of, say, 50 guns in your vehicle while moving, do you put them all in a big bag and take them with you when you go to use the restroom or get a drink? This type of post it great fuel for anti gunners as it follows their way of thinking, that gun owners should be held criminally or at the very least, in a civil manner, as to who uses one of their guns that was acquired illegally.
So, to agree with another poster, if your car is stolen and it is used in any crime, then you are responsible. If you have medication stolen, and it is sold on the street still in the prescription bottle you had it in, then you are guilty of trafficking, if someone steals your credit card and then uses it for some huge purchase, then you should pay since you didn't keep it locked up and safe. Ridiculous? Yes! But that is the same premise you are posing, that someone takes something of yours and uses it wrongly, then you should be held responsible. Sad, really, that the word responsibility is slowly becoming obsolete. Blame it on someone else....
Rediculous? Yes. Absolutely. Like a lot of other things that happen in our litigious society. Recognizing it's rediculous may make me feel all warm and fuzzy, but it won't stop that anti 2A judge from finding for the family of the person a gangbanger kills in a robbery with the gun he stole. It ain't right and it ain't fair, but I'm not going to get cranky with someone who makes a suggestion.
And it won't stop the defamation of the media hypocrites from their crusade against the 2A.
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Old 07-09-2015, 12:40 PM
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This Thread may have a few good thoughts, but personally I am tired of people or the government telling me how to run my life. I am fully capable of running my own life and making sound decisions without input from others. Just my $0.02...........
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Old 07-09-2015, 12:40 PM
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I see your point and it is valid in todays sue happy society, however there are instances where it, in my way of thinking is much better to err on the side of caution. For instance, if I go to Dallas to the VA hospital for an appointment I know I can't carry into the hospital, but I am not about to drive through car jacking Dallas, Texas without some form of handgun in the vehicle next to me. I know I will have to leave it in the vehicle while inside but I sure want it next to me coming and going. Yes, I would still be concerned about it in the truck while I was away but that's a choice I would make.
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Old 07-09-2015, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mike campbell View Post
MY house can be broken into. A butcher knife can be stolen and used to kill someone. My car can be stolen and used to run someone over. An armed mugger could get the drop on me and disarm me.

I'm not morally responsible for the actions of criminals that I don't willingly abet.
Nobody said you were morally responsible....just that it's not a good idea to leave guns in cars.
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Old 07-09-2015, 01:14 PM
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Nobody said you were morally responsible....just that it's not a good idea to leave guns in cars.
Oh yes he did. From the OP:
I don't know the extent of civil responsibility but I do know that I'm morally responsible if I allow a gun to get into the wrong hands.
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Old 07-09-2015, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by federali View Post
I don't know the extent of civil responsibility but I do know that I'm morally responsible if I allow a gun to get into the wrong hands.
This may be your line of reasoning, your philosophy, but it doesn't work for me.

The problem for me is your use of the word "allow". "...if I allow a gun to get into the wrong hands." Your use of the word suggests complicity or acquiescence...and acquiesence implies tacit approval.

I've never allowed anyone to break into my home, but it's happened. Someone could break into my car, but it wouldn't be because I allowed them to do it.

I refuse to accept responsibility, nor will I feel guilty or remorseful for events over which I have no control. I can't save the whole world.

Last edited by Watchdog; 07-09-2015 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 07-09-2015, 02:06 PM
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No one said you "should" be held criminally responsible for the criminal misuse of your stolen property, I said that you "could" be held civilly responsible. There's a big difference. We live in a wonderful nation where anyone can sue anyone else for anything.
Can you provide a link to an example where someone has actually been held liable for the criminal use by a third party of a stolen, but otherwise legally owned and kept firearm?

I'm sure the viability of such a suit would depend on the jurisdiction. Here in rural Georgia, such a suit wouldn't get very far.
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Old 07-09-2015, 02:19 PM
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The papers said it wasn't his duty gun, so it was privately owned. Also said the illegal scum woke up, found the gun wrapped in a cloth at his feet, he unwrapped it and it "went off 3 times". A jury won't buy that but what difference does it make?

And if anybody IS morally responsible, it is the mayor of San Francisco, for its sanctuary city policies regarding illegals. And every other mayor of every other sanctuary city should be personally sued for allowing these criminals to live in their cities with impunity. And I'm not only talking about felons. The drunk illegal with no arrest record who mows down a person is just as bad.
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Old 07-09-2015, 03:18 PM
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I don't go along with "The Truck Gun" I never leave a Gun in My Vehicle Ever, Gun is on My Person when I leave the vehicle.
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Old 07-09-2015, 03:27 PM
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I did have a gun stolen from my car once and trust me it will leave you with a very hollow feeling and a worry of what it might be used for. Mine was used in a drive bye shooting on a house and fortunately no one was hit and the bad guy caught. I got the gun back about a year later after the trial was over and I have never left a gun in my car or truck since.
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Old 07-09-2015, 03:36 PM
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I share the "travel to the hospital/doc" scenario raised.

I have to travel weekly - miles through areas where getting out of your car could easily be fatal. But I can't carry in the hospital property, so it stays in the locked box in the car.

No real choice.
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Old 07-09-2015, 03:49 PM
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I have 3 carry's in this State. When my carry can't go in, it get's locked in a safe in my car not visible, unless you get on your head. Without a key, one would have to have tools to get it out. The smash and grabbers aren't spending that kind of time.

Sure, thieves are looking for guns and valuables. Mine aren't easy to get at whatsoever, except by me.

I live near S.F. like many of our big cities, it's been a politically corrupt and lawless since the "gold rush."
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Old 07-09-2015, 03:50 PM
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Let's place the blame, both morally and legally, where it really belongs. [/QUOTE]

That's right! On the City of San Fransisco
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Old 07-09-2015, 03:56 PM
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I tend to live by the rule that "the end doesn't always justify the means".

What if the outcome were different? Somebody grabbed a gun from a car and saved some lives, especially one or more LEO lives?

Where do you draw the line with these types of "ultimatum" statements?

+1 to what sturtyboy said. I consider what he's stated as to be wise and prudent. If someone goes to that much effort, then, oh well.

One more thing: it's a fine line of discussion, especially with ultimatum statements and such a narrow definition, between carefully thought out plans, discretion, prudence and one's own level of conscientious comfort. What if it weren't "guns" being discussed? What else can be taken from a car (as stated previously) that could be used in a harmful way?
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Old 07-09-2015, 03:59 PM
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Everyone on this web site are not gun people and I hope that if I ever have any kind of gun problem that they are not on the jury. Larry
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Old 07-09-2015, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by gmiller0737 View Post
I don't go along with "The Truck Gun" I never leave a Gun in My Vehicle Ever, Gun is on My Person when I leave the vehicle.
Hmmmm. Either you never go to the Post Office, or you are guilty of a Federal felony on occasion.
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Old 07-09-2015, 04:04 PM
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The last time I carried my guns across country, I built a big coffin looking box.
I loaded it with all my long guns and most of my handguns into the shell on my pickup.
I nailed the top onto the box.
I carried my loaded shooters on me and in a briefcase size hard case.
I stayed in a motel in West Texas. I backed my truck up to a post in front of my ground level motel room.
Slept like a baby! A baby grizzly bear ready to defend its territory.
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  #41  
Old 07-09-2015, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by redlevel View Post
Hmmmm. Either you never go to the Post Office, or you are guilty of a Federal felony on occasion.
Let's don't start that again.
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Old 07-09-2015, 04:20 PM
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I have been reading this thread since the beginning. Have read all posts several times and will continue to read them. What a can of worms!
I have to say that if any person has the time to sit around and think about his or her moral responsibility of the actions of a criminal, maybe it is time to get a hobby.
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Old 07-09-2015, 04:25 PM
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Of course, there are people in the gun prohibition movement who would be gleeful to see passage of legislation that holds armed citizens responsible for crimes committed with stolen firearms, especially if they were not secured.
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Old 07-09-2015, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
I'm not morally responsible for the actions of criminals that I don't willingly abet.
I don't willingly stop carrying a firearm in my car because someone else lost his. I've had guns stolen before; it never stopped me from my usual routine except that at night I bring the car gun into the house. Otherwise it is in the car for a reason.


I recently was stopped by a police officer for a minor traffic violation in a town near where I live that shall remain nameless. When I presented my CHL, as required by law, he didn't want to see it. All he said was, "This is Nameless; every car in Nameless has a gun in it".

Nuf sed.
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Old 07-09-2015, 04:29 PM
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And, DW is correct:

Quote:
Of course, there are people in the gun prohibition movement who would be gleeful to see passage of legislation that holds armed citizens responsible for crimes committed with stolen firearms, especially if they were not secured.
The law, however, is clear on the subject. A crime is considered an unforeseeable act which breaks the causal connection between the owner of a chattel used in a crime by a thief and the actual owner of the chattel.

Now, that can change if the chattel owner does something stupid/negligent, like leave a pistol on the front seat of an open top convertible or other idiocy of a similar nature.
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Old 07-09-2015, 04:33 PM
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Let me jump in on this a bit.,...

IF...a person has to remove their gun from their body to go into a place that does not allow weapons..open carry or concealed. and they Lock their gun in their vehicle, then precautions were taken to prevent to prevent such a theft....

No more than I can be responsible for locking my home before I leave, and my home is broken into, and my guns were stolen...I took normal precautions to prevent theft of my belongings..

None of us would leave the keys in our car or truck when we go out to eat or to shop, or anywhere we are out of sight of our vehicle for any length of time....And given this day and age, most of us take the keys out and lock our cars before we leave it.

So what are we to do, call 911 and have a LEO come and guard our vehicle when we are not in it?

Federali, you do bring up some good points for our discussion here though. Thank you for your post and concerns.



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Old 07-09-2015, 04:35 PM
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UNLESS you're going to violate black letter law and carry into statutorily prohibited places, you're either going to:
  1. leave your gun in your car for at least short periods.
  2. go unarmed.
Pick ONE.
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Old 07-09-2015, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmiller0737 View Post
I don't go along with "The Truck Gun" I never leave a Gun in My Vehicle Ever, Gun is on My Person when I leave the vehicle.
I can't imagine not having a gun in my truck or car in addition to the one I'm carrying.

Do I leave it in the vehicle when I get out to do things? Yep, sure do. In order to steal it, the thug's gotta find it first, and I guarantee you no smash-and-grab punk's gonna find it. And even if he did find it, I doubt he'd be able to access it.

No system is foolproof, of course. But I'm confident no thief's gonna spend twenty or thirty minutes looking for my truck gun, and even more time trying to get at it and steal it.

Here's a hint, too. I'm an NRA member. But you won't see an NRA decal on either of my vehicles. No other gun-associated decals, either. Seriously, why draw attention to yourself with product stickers all over your back bumper or back window? Or some of that NRA "Cold Dead Hands" stuff.
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Old 07-09-2015, 04:48 PM
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No judge around here would even let a case like that get started. Nor would a jury ever go for it. I see guns in cars and trucks all the time. Some of them are unlocked. I wouldn't want to get caught stealing a gun around here. If you got shot doing it nobody would arrest who ever shot you. To bad most of the country has completely lost its mind.

Last edited by ChattanoogaPhil; 07-09-2015 at 06:37 PM. Reason: politics
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Old 07-09-2015, 04:52 PM
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How about laying the blame on the likely circumstance that he needed to go somewhere where there was a no carry ordinance. Coupled with the madness of that whacky SF policy of not notifying ICE that they had released a 5 time deported illegal. I think there's quite a bit of blame for those who instituted that policy.
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