Stumbled on to this video and just wanted to share. It shows just how dangerous an attacker with a knife can be to someone within distance of less than 21ft.

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Ephesians 6 (Armor of God)

or not....

If at all possible, retreat while drawing to maintain distance in that situation. Maybe even practice firing while intentionally falling down backwards? This would almost certainly be a crazed maniac to charge like that so anything goes.

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Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

This is an excellent video showing the devastation 1 person can cause with 1 knife. Multiple police officers and people were stabbed and killed with rifles/pistols in hand!

The Tueller drill has been around for a while, but with all the people new to CC, it's worthy of a reminder.

Hopefully, CC Instructors cover this in their classes. (Mine did)

Lynn Thompson, of Cold Steel, wrote at length about this topic in one of the gun mags some years ago. A knife in a gunfight can in fact come out the winner. Knife in hand, you can close and disembowel someone before they can get their weapon out of the holster.Even Jeff Cooper, writing about the sad demise of Napoleon IV, opined that up close a sword or mace lost nothing on a pistol, and in fact had the advantage since it would never jam or need a reload.

i had an interesting conversation with a gent who conducted training for Sig Sauer. He traveled to police departments around the country conducting firearms training.He told me that the average concealed carry person would never get their firearm into play if set upon by someone seriously intent on doing them bodily harm. His point had more to do with training and awareness than anything else, meaning that the reflex actions would not be well enough conditioned to allow a timely response.

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

What about someone who can draw and fire 5 shots in less then 3/5 of a second with all five shots in the Ace of Spades at 7 yds?
It's been done several times.....

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

Please do a search in this forum for previous discussions of the so called "Tueller Rule". Dennis Tueller and I discussed this at length several times. Everyone of us with consideration of our ability, our method of carry and our handgun has their own Tueller distance and we need to determine and document what it is on our own. I won't re-write all that I have previously written, it is available by a search.

If you know to draw your gun and are aware of the threat before he gets anywhere near you, you'd probably be just fine.
I think the argument is 21ft is a long distance and the idea or attitude of "I'll shoot him dead before he can get within reach of me" is just not realistic.

A lot of timed shooting competitions are also done with specialty guns, specialty holsters that are easily accessible and designed for speed draws. Your average concealed IWB pistol in a leather holster covered up by a shirt and obstructed by your gut is going to be slower on the draw.

Shooting at the ace of spades is quite different than shooting at a charging maniac.

I was there and I know. That's about all I'll say.

Agreed. The concept is really to demonstrate that you're really not safe just because there appears to be a fairly large distance between you and someone armed with a knife(or club). And let us not forget that most assailants won't announce their intentions from across the room, street or anywhere near 21 feet. Most knife attacks are really assassination attempts where the attacker will try to ambush you at close-quarters while you are off-guard, so knowing proper movement integrated with unarmed skills are vital to access your firearm.

Yes, it is true, a man can be all over you, in a heartbeat.
I have practiced to shoot from the ground, in case I was ever rushed and floored.
But, that guy in the video would probably kill me before I could react.

As somebody punches that someone in the face without warning?

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Not that there is necessarily a good way, but getting cut up or hacked up with an edged weapon would be a lousy way to depart this world.

There is no good way to die violently, unless you mean so quickly you don't really feel it.

When I teach concealed carry courses I try to remember to remind people of situational awareness. There is no time in almost any armed confrontation, especially when the opponent has his weapon in hand, be it knife or gun, if your weapon is holstered.

The 21 foot rule has been discussed over and over so many times it surprises me that it is not as widely known as I'd like to think.

As a very secondary note, when I started reading this thread and saw there was a video I said to myself, "Self, SOMEONE is going to paost the Raylan Givens/Justified video with the idiot who falls into the hole."

Well done, Rogue Wizard!

Over the years of having been a LE firearms instructor, I've often cringed when someone expounded on the Tueller Drill as being the 21 Foot Rule.

Having listened to Dennis Tueller explain it to a roomful of armorers a couple of times ... for probably his umpty-umpth time ... I feel for him having to repeatedly and carefully explain and clarify what was involved in him originally considering the training question of "How close is too close?"

The whole thing seemed to have rapidly gone beyond his control back then, and now it's virtually taken on a life of its own.

When doing LE training, and the occasional private citizen/CCW classes, I've always tried to emphasize the importance of understanding awareness, reaction times, distances, equipment used, physical environmental conditions (lightning conditions, obstacles to movement of both attacker and defender, adverse weather affecting mobility, vision & hearing) and the influence of distracting, or other threatening, factors.

Lots of things can affect how distance can work against, or for, us ... and it's not quite as simple as using a yardstick as a frame of reference.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

In truth, the sword, knife, or spear is far more dangerous than any handgun in a close in fight. Far quicker, far more damaging, and far more accurate in a real fight. The ONLY advantage the handgun, or for the most part any firearm, has is distance. That's it. It is inferior in every way to the melee weapon save for the fact it can hit things at a distance.

The flintlock only became the standard weapon of the infantry when the bayonet was invented and implemented, turning a musket into a spear. Contrary to what most people think, the vast majority of musket fighting was done hand to hand, bayonet to bayonet, breaking skulls with musket butts. Officers still carried swords, and used them to great effect in combat. While some who believe certain myths about warfare at the time, and those who have been around the era of modern fast shooting firearms retroactively believe, that "colored uniforms and standing in lines iz stoopid", such lines and formations were more effective than individuals sniping off men by themselves, as the true battle was eventually violent close up combat, not trading shots with the enemy.

Only when rifling became common to average weapons instead of specialty rifles, and the advent of the cartridge over the muzzleloader, was the effect of firepower to end the era of hand to hand combat as the means of fighting war. Only when a very fast rate of high accuracy long range fire could be produced, was the era of the bayonet's supremacy on the battlefield ended. Even then, go ahead and ask some Korean War vets about their fighting, and they might tell you that hand to hand didn't quite come to an end in 1914.

A great deal of the gun's supremacy over the melee weapon is real, in the fact that I can shoot a man with a knife at 300 yards with a .30-06 without much trouble, hopefully, before he can get even nearly close to me. The other part is heavily myth, much of it based on the concept that it is the weapon, not the man, who fights, and who wins. The man makes the weapon; the weapon does not make the man. Also is the arrogance and swagger of the man who believes that his gun makes him supreme, as well as the man who wants to believe that carrying a gun makes him immune to the knife or the fist, gives him an insurmountable advantage.

Many people are unaware. But there are also those too, who, mouth breathing and slack jawed, will not accept the fact that a gun can possibly lose to any knife or fist. The pistol is not a magic guardian against evil, or some sort of talisman, it is a weapon. And you have to win the fight.

Drawing and firing and hitting your intended target when that target is a stationary object that is not trying to hurt you is one thing. But when you start out in second place because the target starts the action and has the ability and tools to seriously hurt you is quite another situation. It is almost impossible to start out in second place and get ahead of the action.

The grizzled old Sarge who taught me defensive tactics showed us three ways to defend against someone who has a knife in his hand and is advancing to hurt you with it. After several days of repetitive training in these methods, he stopped the class and explained that he was required to teach those methods to us. He then stated that the only possible safe way to maybe avoid being cut or stabbed if you have to draw when you see the knife is to take three steps backward while you are drawing and aiming at the guy and blow him away from the knife! And he further stated that doing so is no guarantee of avoiding getting cut. If your reaction time (recognizing the threat and taking action) is in any way delayed, you are likely gonna get cut. The guy may even be shot and die in the action, but you can also be stabbed and die.

Personally, I would rather face someone with a firearm than someone with a knife any time.

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So long ... Ken

Simply not true in my opinion. I've spent 30 studying the blade arts and only a fraction of that time extensively studying the finer points of using the handgun in close quarters, but give me the handgun anytime, at any distance, in any situation. The issue is one of underestimating and failing to understand the dynamics of the knife as a weapon. Now there could be specific contact/CQ scenarios where mobility is limited in which I would rather have to defend against a gun vs a blade if I were unarmed, but that's about it. For my own weapon, I'd always chose a handgun.

Is the knife wielder at 21 feet a skilled knife fighter? Or a drunk with a knife?

Michael Janich is the most dangerous man I've ever seen on television. I would rather face any man with a gun than him with a knife.

"Knife in hand, you can close and disembowel someone before they can get their weapon out of the holster."

A skilled knife fighter is not going to go for your guts. That's Hollywood stuff. He'll slice a bicep and then a quad. You'll be a helpless heap on the ground. Before you can blink.

Duckford is correct. With the caveat that the knife wielder is skilled.

On a similar note, an arrow is far more dangerous than a bullet from a handgun. Broadhead hunting arrows are diabolically deadly.

The OODA loop is more important than the generalization of the "21ft rule".
For me, personally I'm more inclined towards the rule "If you don't spot the trap, you gotta go through the ****".

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Halfway and one more step

That's a very strong statement and somewhat absurd. What factual information are you basing your opinions on? Show me real world incidents where mechanical/disabling cuts have actually been applied and were effective.

What he says is true. Simple research will provide proof that it is.

An inexperienced person with a knife will try to get in close and stab/slash wildly.

A person that knows what he's doing will disable you with his knife first. Then finish you off if he so chooses.

Hence, most people that carry knifes don't count on them for self defense.

Go to YouTube and watch Mike Janich's videos.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

I understand his point and know Mike's MBC material well. I've have trained in FMA's and other knife systems for 3 decades. Show me proof, not theory is my point. There are no professional or experienced knife fighters outside of prison.

Good video. As stated by others the 21 foot rule is often misquoted. The 21 foot rule is more of a reference point than anything else. Tueller could just as well said 22 feet.

Unfortunately many people can't or don't practice moving while drawing and empty handed skills.

This video illustrates my point.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

So let me get this straight.
I have no chance with a BG with a knife who is drunk/high on drugs if I only have a handgun of major caliber......

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

What? No experienced or professional knife fighter outside of prison? Then who is Mike Janich?

And if you've been studying knife craft for 30 years, how much more proof do you need? Because of your experience, WE should be asking YOU for proof.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

I've fenced on and off for the last 40 years. There are fencers I know who would have no problem against someone with a handgun. The principal problem for the handgunner is hitting a moving target. How many times have you read about LEOs who empty their Glocks and only 2-3 bullets hit the assailant? Someone trained in blade use is moving and fast. Most handgun users aren't as fast because they are concerned with keeping a two handed grip and aiming.

I'm old and slow now comparatively, but I still have the eye/hand coordination so that I don't have to aim my blade, it goes where I want it to.

Nope. Not a chance. His bad breath will have you down and out at 21 feet.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Way too much generalizing on this thread. Context is everything. Is the fight in a phone booth, then I might give the blade the edge, but that too depends on the individuals involved. A big, strong athletic guy drilled in extensive counter-blade via FoF training with a concealed pistol vs a smaller, slower middle age guy with a blade with 10 years of FMA or MBC, then I would probably give the advantage first guy irregardless of the setting or distance, but much depends on how the initial contact is initiated.

Exactly, you just proved it. There are no hard and fast answers. There is no proof.

As with many other discussions about self defense, the statement "it depends" is usually the best answer because there are too many variables.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

All the first video shows is a bunch of idiots walking into a trap. That's the lesson. Are we pretending the Honduran guy is a " trained knife fighter"?
He's deranged, and the uniforms are fools.
Self defense? Remove yourself from the vacinity. Duty to arrest? Shoot him across the fence.

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Halfway and one more step

Until you've been unlucky enough to have experienced someone seriously and earnestly trying their best to stab/gut you with a blade, this is often a subject of conjecture and theory. If you've been able to attend some applicable, relevant and properly done training, it's another 'what if' scenario that's hopefully addressed with the attention and seriousness it deserves.

Even realistic training can't really prepare you for experiencing the effects of the huge adrenaline dump, while trying function while experiencing the very real effects of a hormonal fear response. Someone's really trying to kill you.

In my case I had the slight advantage of having been training in various martial arts for approx 10 years, including practicing against non-gun weapons.

When it happened, if happened fast. Even with a verbalized threat of what the attacker in my case said he intended to do to me, the act itself seemed to take on a surreal and frightening speed. Fortunately, I was able to get away from the point of the blade and avoid the attacker's lunging sweep with his blade. The attacker was thrown off balance.

Looking at the video footage afterward, I shuddered to realize that if I'd been only a fraction of a second slower in creating distance, I'd not have avoided the blade. If I'd hesitated in the least, trying to consciously decide what to do, I have no doubt I'd have ended up with a 5-6" wooden-handled kitchen boning knife deep in my gut. (Yes, I still have a very clear visual of the attack, more than 30 years later, while typing this.)

In future situations (after I became a working cop), where I encountered someone brandishing and threatening with a blade, I never forgot that earlier lesson about creating distance and looking for a way to use not only distance, but any situational element (like furniture, parked car, etc), to my advantage.

Training may help prevent some folks from into 'brain lock' at the realization of an unexpected and immediate life threatening attack. Hopefully stop some folks from defaulting to the FREEZE part of the apparently 'hard-wired', FREEZE, FLIGHT or FIGHT response.

First, by helping provide an ingrained trained response appropriate to the situation, without having to stop and consciously think about what to do and how to do it, and then try to do it.

Secondly, by hopefully preparing someone to be able to effectively physically function even while experiencing the adrenaline dump, stress and fear response involved. It's been described as having applicable, realistic training help "inoculate" someone against some of the very real effects of sudden and severe stress.

Just my thoughts.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I would suggest killing a pig with a knife. Though a goat would work, a pig will be better owing to the squealing and the blood. Do that and you know more about a knife than most do.

It also may be beneficial to learn something simple, like the San Quentin prison rush. Last I knew, the Marines had adopted a version of it.

The folks I knew who had used knives did not focus on disabling extremities. They seemed to operate on the theory that violence of the initial attack would overcome potential resistance. Same as you don't shoot someone's arms first.

Many times Lynn Thompson was best taken with a grain of salt, but he was entirely correct in his assertion that decapitation and disembowelment tend to end altercations.

Most people assume they will be the one with the gun. Give some thought to being the one with the knife. Try a simple force on force drill with an airsoft gun versus a rolled up magazine.

Different weapon, different tactics.

THERE IS NO 21-FOOT RULE!

21 feet is an average maximum distance in a set-piece demonstration where the defender is guaranteed to be stabbed at least once.

But that is for a uniformed police officer, yes? For carry conceal you have to add for clearing the concealing garment.

I've thought about this for a while now. I wonder how useful this information is.

If the guy is 21 feet away and displaying a knife, then you'd think you'd have your hand on the butt of your gun at least. That would allow you to get off your first shot a bit quicker.

Or if he has the knife out and seems menacing you might have your weapon drawn--shaving more time off.

Or if he is really agitated you might have your target acquired shaving more time off. At some point you might have you trigger finger on the trigger instead of outside the trigger guard.

Of course if you don't know he has a knife, then the 21 foot rule is moot. You don't know he has a knife and you don't worry about a threat and you pay no attention to the 21 foot rule.

I wonder how many feet the rule would be if your weapon was out and aimed and your finger was on the trigger? 5 feet? 8 feet? 9 feet? 10? Certainly not 21 feet.

So if you don't know that they bad guy is carrying a knife (or a tire iron) you don't implement the 21 foot rule, and if you do know you have taken one or several of the preliminary steps making the rule much, much shorter (but how much we don't know because everyone is satisfied because we have the "21 foot rule").

I think that the 21 foot rule is useless information. We need all the footages based on what steps we have taken.

1. Carry concealed distance
2. Open carry distance (21 foot rule)
3. Hand on the butt of your gun distance.
4. Weapon drawn but pointed to the ground distance.
5. Weapon drawn and on aim distance (finger outside trigger guard).
6. Weapon drawn, on aim, finger on trigger distance.

Distances 1 and 2 seem fairly useless to me. It really suggests that you don't recognize that the bad guy is a threat.

Distances 3, 4, 5 and 6 seem to be useful to know. But I've never seen anything written on those scenarios.

That I've got to see.

React .,, draw ,, and fire 5 shots ,, let alone hit a playing card at 7 yards,,, In 3/5 (.6) of a second..

I saw a live demo with Miculek, where he shot 6 shots in one second.. Gun in hand,, timed from the first shot to the last shot.. Ed McGivern shot 5 shots in 2/5 of a second in 1930's ,, but that was timed with gun in hand from first shot to last shot also..
I personally know one of the top 20 grand masters for open class in USPSA.. Race Holster ,, Race gun ,, one of the fastest kids I've ever seen ,, and I'll bet big bucks he can't do it..


Jerry Miculek ,, Ed McGivern ,, Bobby Leaham,, Bob Munden,, Jerry Barnhart ,, move over there's a new top gun in town..

Even if it can be done, it really does not relate to me.

Because I cannot do it (and I suspect that very few members of this forum can either).

We had a training class on that. Every deputy, including myself, was "stabbed" with a rubber knife before we could react and get our firearm out.

As V0OBWxZS16 said, THERE IS NO 21-FOOT RULE! There is no Tueller rule, either; there is a Tueller DRILL. It is an experiment that you and friends can perform for yourselves, or even instruct a jury how to perform for themselves. It consists of getting a stopwatch and a bunch of adolescent or adult males (the most likely assailants) and timing each one of them to see how long it takes for them to cover some medium distance and stab you with a rolled-up newspaper. You look at this list of times, ranging, from one example, from 1.3 to 1.8 seconds for 21 feet, and see how it compares to your own measured time for drawing and firing a weapon. If you aren't James Clark's son-in-law, it is probably going to turn your 21-foot drill into a 35-foot rule.

The six above-listed scenarios are a good start for making these comparisons, but it quickly becomes obvious that unless the assailant shouts his intentions from across the street, by the time you know what's going on, you're already behind - way behind. You need other ways to avoid or counter an assailant with a knife, if you're fortunate enough even to see the attack coming.

21-foot rule? NO. E-mail rule. If he communicates a threat by e-mail, you don't need to draw. If he does it in person from any place other than across the freeway, you need to get furniture, cars or trees between you and him while you're drawing your gun.

Just because you have the gun out finger on the trigger and POA center mass doesn't mean a double tap to the chest is going to stop him from sticking that knife in you.

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USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

Well I think I am changing my EDC to a long blade knife and HD to a machete. At least I will have a equal chance and if the guy has a gun I will just use the 21 foot rule to my advantage. The neighbors will be safer along with my walls and house hold goods.

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USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

If you are old enough to pull this off, a walking/fighting stick (walking cane/fighting cane) can be very effective.

If you are too young you will either look like you must be crippled or you will look like a foppish dandy.

I carry the Blackswift Raven fighting stick. I don't use it to bear any weight, I just use it for the cadence while walking. No need to draw it out, it is already in hand. With a 36" reach it keeps a knife wielding thug at bay. Drop it on the floor and grab your gun at any time. I practice on a heavy bag. You really don't want to get hit with this thing. I have no doubt that my practiced strikes would break a radius or ulna bone if it struck the forearm. Or simply crush a wrist.

And sometimes you just don't want to shoot someone, even if they represent a threat.

Here is the Blackswift Raven. I believe it is made from a solid core fiberglass golf shaft. It appears to be indestructible. Not so the graphite version that is hollow. I broke that the first day (they replaced it for free).

BlackSwift Sticks - walking stick self defense

The Raven features a mace head that won't roll off a flat surface (an advantage when you want to rest it against the wall).

There are many videos on line showing it in use. But once you get used to walking with a walking stick you won't want to give it up. They claim it is OK for airline travel. I have not tried that yet. But that would be an advantage too.

But if you use it as a weapon the bad guy better have one too, or you will have some legal difficulties.

It all comes down to "SA", situational awareness.

Be aware of your surroundings.

So what I'm reading here is that if the bear attacking you is armed with a knife you're pretty well screwed.

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Forum consigliere

Could not have been said better. Unless you have been there you cannot begin to understand what you will experience. "Happens FAST" is an understatement. Even if you are prepared and ready with gun in hand the attacker will be upon you almost before your brain can register what is happening.

"Situational awareness" is one of those phrases that make sense on the surface but are impossible to implement.

It fits in the same catagory as advise to the widower, "Cheer up." when there is no mechanism for him to do so.

Or, "Get over it." to the parent of a recently deceased child.

It is not only a waste of words it is offensive.

You are aware of what you are aware of. Nothing more, nothing less.

So the sweet looking old lady with the white hair and shopping cart gets ignored, but maybe she has a saber in her shopping cart.

Or the well-dressed man in an expensive suit, rep necktie and white shirt, and highly polished shoes is considered a non-threat when in fact he is a highly paid assassin.

And the poorly dressed Latino or black is assessed as a potential threat but is merely low on funds.

Your ability be aware of situations is fixed individual by individual. There are training methods for improving situational awareness but I think they are less effective in protecting you than spending time on handgun practice and martial arts practice.

And what if you are very good at situational awareness but are engrossed in a task or talking to a very interesting person. In those cases your awareness plummets.

In any case I think the expression is bandied about with little purpose served.

Cheer up. Get over it.

Card no fight back.

Anyone who hunts deer knows that an angry or scared deer can run a long way after taking multiple hits, even through the heart. So can an angry or drugged up threat. TV had an evil gun story about a cop hitting the BG with every shot in the revolver, BG got his own gun and killed the cop.