I have a Crimson Trace grip laser on my M&P 40c. I find it a great substitute for the front & rear sights which I can no longer see clearly without glasses.

While at the range today a thought crossed my mind: why am I holding my pistol in a stance that is used by people who are using their sights to hit the target? I'm not using the sights so maybe there is a better way for me to hold the pistol. Yeah, HERESY, I know! How many times have I heard, read, and told others that you have to keep your focus on the front sight!?

So, I held my pistol with the same two handed grip I always use but I held my arms and elbows tightly against my sides with my wrists tucked into my belly button! The attached target was shot at 7 yards and shows the results. I would say I took 2 seconds or less between shots while shooting one round at the bottom left bull, then one at the center bull and finally one at the bottom right bull. Rinse and repeat!

My 72 year old eyeballs can see that red dot just fine without glasses and my hold on the pistol is much steadier with my arms and wrists locked against my body. Just thought I'd share in hopes someone may benefit.

Attached Images

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Hey, nice shooting!!

At 63, I have been thinking along those same lines, but shooting at my home range here in South Texas, I discovered that at mid-day when the sun comes out from behind the clouds, my little Crimson Trace Dot disappears... literally.

I would be hesitant to learn to shoot differently, only to find out that:

• My laser batteries died the night before
• The day was too bright for the laser to be visible
• I had forgotten to turn ON the laser switch
  
  Don't get me wrong, I have two revolvers with CT. I find the CT to be a great tool for practice with snap caps, because you can see when you may be jerking the trigger when firing. Much cheaper to watch the laser jump to the right, left, etc., rather than counting up all those $1.00 shots that missed the bulls eye... Just sayin'...

Remember, lasers, like tracers, are two way . You may be showing the bad guy right where you are located .

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

Mntwinds, you have learned a new shooting style that may come in handy in the future, so good for you. Convential wisdom is to practice shooting in different situations and positions and with both and either hand(s) so that in a defensive situation you can be more prepared than if you only practice one way. Horizontal Mike makes a good point to not count on the laser and to not solely rely on your new technique.

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Scoundrel & Ne'er-Do-Well

Sounds like Jim Cirillo's geometric point stance with a laser. Jim Cirillo

A laser has potentially great value for some circumstances; I swear by the CT405s on my 940. However, having only one system, which is as other have pointed out, not certain to work all the time for reasons you may not be able to control, has risks. Put the effort into getting more visible sights. I have found that to be vital. There are different options that can work. I have an XS big dot and an opened rear sight trough on the 940; my Glock 33 has the complete big dot set; one of my autopistols has an XS small dot (tritium of course) with its rear sight having a .156" opening, etc.

And shooting without your glasses might present a problem of a different type if you are like me - target ID. If I lose my glasses in a struggle, I am close enough to know who needs to be shot, but at any real distance, it's at best iffy.

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NHI, 10-8.

It boils down to what works for you. Eyes and sights are primary and best, but as you said, if you can't see them clearly, maybe not.
CT now sends new batteries free of charge annually for their lasers. Change them like your smoke detector batteries.
The suggestion to upgrade your sights to something like the XS or Big Dots is sound also.
I'm in favor of stacking the odds in my favor whether its bigger sights, lasers, lights and anything else that will help me get on target quickly.
I haven't used the green lasers but have heard that they are easier to see in bright light than the red ones.

At the ranges I'm thinking, no sights of any kind would be ok. Point, shoot, take great pictures.

When I was a kid I burned a lot of ammo but I got REALLY good at shooting a rifle from the hip. I'd like to try that again with a Winchester to see if I can still do it. Maybe I'll buy one.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I have the M&P Shield 40 with Crimson Trace laser (green), and I also have come to the conclusion that for a self-defense incident I plan to use the laser as my primary sight. The laser enables both the sight and the target to both be in focus at the same time since they are the same distance from my eyes. The green laser makes it clearly visible even in daylight for a considerable distance.

This also solves the issue with focusing up close on the iron sights using my bifocal (progressive) glasses. I have to actually tilt my head up to see through the lower part of my glasses in order to bring the front sight into focus.

However, I also train just using the gun sights in case they are needed. I do plan to replace the battery in my laser sight every 6 months even though they are rated for 12 months.

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Be safe. Live long & prosper.

mtnwinds,
I think it's great that you are doing what's necessary to get the gun to work best for you. I too have trouble seeing the sights. A laser is a good solution for that, but has some drawbacks.

Even though the sights are hard to see, they don't run on batteries. "Murphy" is alive and well and living in the US. Sure enough, you'll diligently maintain the batteries only to have a defective one when you really need it. Then, if you haven't kept up your practice with the sights, you'll be behind the power curve.

So, by all means, use the laser. Just be sure to keep practicing with the sights.

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Freedom isn't free.

Uh.....what?

If you're getting mugged, the bad guy knows where you are.

I'm just guessing mind you, but I thought one could use a laser equipped pistol for other than bad breath distances.
I would also think at mugging distance I'd not need a laser or sights. Point shooting needs to be practiced though.

However, your needs may vary.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

I admire your ingenuity, mtnwinds. Each year or two, I buy more and more expensive lenses for my glasses, and they seem to help less and less as time goes on. I have CT Laser Grips for both of my defensive revolvers (LG 105, LG 306), and the lasers do help. However, I have found that the iron sights don't have to be perfectly aligned to get combat accurate hits out to 5 yards or so. Trigger technique is far more important for me to get solid hits.

Lately, I've been using a "cylinder index" with good results. That is, rather than trying to pick up the iron sights on my revolvers, I hold the revolver where I can see the round shape of the cylinder in my line of sight and superimpose it on the target. As long as the cylinder shape is fairly round and centered in my peripheral vision, decent hits can be made without a laser.

I also sometimes carry a Sig P250sc, but so far I haven't had any luck finding a holster that will accommodate the rail frame with a laser. Until then, I have 3M red reflective tape that I picked up at Autozone cut to fit the generous front sight, turning the hard to see 3-dot sights into a big, bright red-ramp sight. It has worked pretty well so far. And it doesn't take too much ambient light reflected to make that tape shine like Rudolph's nose.

I see these two objections to using laser sights:

1. Battery may fail
2. You may expose your location

In response to #1, the answer is simple: Replace your laser batteries often (3-6 months). The batteries are very cheap.

In response to #2:

1. Have you ever used laser sights in a real incident?
2. Is there any evidence to support this assertion?
3. Some lasers are only on when you want them to be. So if you sight the BG without the laser, then use the laser to pinpoint the shot just before you fire, seems like it it too late for the BG to respond.
4. Maybe in some cases, the laser will blind the BG, and/or cause him to flee
5. Why would the Special Forces and SEAL teams ever use laser sights?

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Be safe. Live long & prosper.

If you are going to use a laser, this ^^ is the correct way.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

No drama, it's just one of my personal peeves- using military or police examples when it comes to regular citizen self-defense. Your "lasers, like tracers, are two way..." kinda reminds me of "My handgun is to fight my way to my rifle" or all those other silly statements.

I'm not tactical- if I need to draw a firearm then the bad guy(s) know right where I am and it isn't reasonable for me to exercise any other option but shoot. If they don't know I'm there, how would I know I'm a victim?

To each his own, as I said, your needs may vary.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

Great shooting remind me not to tick you off lol
I am thinking of a Laser and is there a difference in the sun with the Green Laser over the Red?

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9mm Shield

Definitely. You can see the green laser.
Just google it and/or search youtube.
You'll see lots of examples.

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Be safe. Live long & prosper.

At 69 the only thing I do is paint the front sight a contrasting color and still shoot using the same sight picture. We used to use White-Out correction fluid on the front of our revolvers and it worked pretty well, but had to be reapplied regularly. I've tried the laser and just can't get used to it.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

of testing done with laser sights. At 10 yards or more they worked pretty good. At close range the shooter spent a lot of time finding that point of light on the target when the target was dressed in street clothes. Ideally having a finer point at longer ranges works well but is to small up close. Having said that, if your eyes have reached the point where you can't see the gun sights then a laser might be your only good option.

The laser works very well for me as close as 3 yrd.
I have practiced with both bullseye and silhouette targets. As soon as the laser dot is in the bullseye circle/oval I fire, or as soon as the dot is reasonably close to the center of the head, I fire. I don't waste any time trying to find the exact center or point I want to hit. I practice a lot of rapid fire using the laser.

I also practice dry firing a lot at home. As soon as I rack the slide I quickly bring the laser dot on a small target and pull the trigger. I practice shooting from sitting in my recliner, jumping up and firing down the hall towards the front door, and jumping up and running around through my kitchen to fire from cover.

This may just be me. But I think that if I train consistently to pull the trigger as soon as the dot is reasonably close, then in real life I'll do well. (but who knows?)

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Be safe. Live long & prosper.

Yes, it sounds simple and batteries are relatively inexpensive. However, just because you put a battery in yesterday doesn't mean it's going to work today.

Case in point:
My friend and I were in a rifle class. He has an Aimpoint Comp M2. The battery should last about 3 years in that optic. He put a new battery in just before the class started and it died halfway through. Hmmm, Murphy lives again.

It matters not if anyone has ever been in a real fight. The evidence you're looking for is right in front of you. Just look at the laser. If you can see it, so can others.


Absolutely! This is why I would recommend only a Crimson Trace or equivalent. These can be easily controlled and manipulated on and off. They require a normal firing grip and no extra movement. If you use a laser, this is the only way to go.


Maybe, but the laser is so small, blinding the bad guy is not something you should count on.

Do they? Even if they do, they operate in a completely different environment than we do.

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Freedom isn't free.

That's a cheap shot (pun intended), and one that I'll have to refute.

As you well know, anecdotes are highly unreliable, and almost never provide a sound basis for good decision making, especially when no supporting details are provided (like battery brand, type, how old, is the battery cavity clean, etc, etc, etc.)

I have been an avid amatuer photographer for over 30 years, and I have to say that I don't remember a new battery failing immediately on any device I have used. I also use a lot a batteries in my many electronic gadgets with no immediate failures.

Of course, anything is possible, but the probability of a new battery failing immediately is highly unlikely.

I'm much more likely to get a gun malfunction than I am a new battery failure.

IAC, I do take precautions that any reasonable person would do:

1. I buy only top quality batteries
2. I replace the batteries on critical devices (like laser sights) at half the interval recommended by the device manufacturer.
3. Before inserting a new battery, inspect and clean the battery compartment
4. Test the laser after battery installation
5. Test the laser on almost a daily basis when dry firing
6. As I said earlier, using the laser is my primary, but not my only method for sighting
7. I routinely practice using laser sighting and the iron sights

I totally get it that some don't like laser sights. I think it is one of a number of things concerning guns that comes down to personal preference, and then doing proper practice based on you decision. For me, using laser sights works better than iron sights.

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Be safe. Live long & prosper.

I agree with you JMichaelTX. In the modern world, batteries are very reliable. Even so, stuff happens. The story I related is not made up, it happened.

I told that story not to say that batteries are unreliable, but rather that things tend to fail at the worst possible moment. Therefore, it's a good plan to have some kind of back up plan.

Also, you may be diligent about replacing batteries, but most of us aren't. I have so many devices with batteries that I've taken to this method:


Without the date marked, I'd never remember when I installed that battery.

In fact, this is an interesting addendum to what we're talking about. The pictured is a Primary Arms Microdot. I bought it because they advertised a battery life of 50,000 hours on the medium setting. So, I turned it on when I got it and didn't turn it off. I got it in February 2015. In August I looked at it and the dot was off. That means that the battery died in less than 5,000 hours. I don't know exactly when it died, but it lasted less than 1/10th as long as it should have. Hmmm, not good. Even at maximum brightness, it should have lasted at least a year.

I called Primary Arms and asked if they had run across this before. They had not. To their credit they offered to replace the unit. I declined and opted to install a new battery and see how it goes. It has been on since 3 Aug 2015 and is still working. I will continue to monitor it and see how it goes. If it lasts a year, that's good enough for me.

So, here's yet another story of a battery failure.


JMichaelTX you are the exception not the rule. You practice with your iron sights, but most don't. Please understand, I'm not saying that lasers are the devil. I'm just saying that there are risks associated with them that every owner should be aware of. If a person is willing to take that risk, I'm good with that. If they are fooling themselves into thinking that their tool is fool proof then...

Yes, it is more likely that your gun will malfunction than the laser. However, a malfunction can be cleared in a second or two. A dead battery cannot be replaced in that time.

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Freedom isn't free.

I too have eye issues. Rather than go the laser route, I'm trying this:


No batteries and solid as a rock. So far, I don't really like it. Still, it is one solution.

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Freedom isn't free.

I ran a Delta Point on my 45c for about 1 1/2 years. I initially liked it but grew to think less and less of it as time went on. I was never able to locate the dot quickly enough to suit me. I sold it and went with laser sights. I'm practising at least once a week firing 50 to 150 rounds per session. It still feels strange to not bring my weapon up to eye level but I can't argue with the results. I can shoot much faster and more accurately.



When I use irons, either I can see the front sight clearly and the target is a blur or it's the other way 'round. Using the laser, everything is clear because my sight is very good for distance.

Radco asked a question about the green laser visibility in bright sunlight. I run the same TLR2 G on my Glock 23 and FS40. I switch it as needed. When I first got it, I took it outside on a sunny Texas day and pointed it at various objects, all of which were in very bright sunlight.

It was clearly visible on tree bark, auto tires, auto wheels, and concrete. It was also clearly visible on various auto body surfaces unless the surface was reflecting bright sunlight. The distances involved were from 7 to 20 yards.