I went to the range today, to put in some work with my Model 60 and Glock 23. There was a gentleman in the next lane, apparently an instructor, who was showing a husband and wife different models and calibers of handguns explaining the pro's and cons and having them shoot each.

He was wearing a 3 piece suit (minus the jacket), and a shoulder holster carrying a glock 19. Never seen that "teaching attire" before. Watching him cycle the various guns, shooting and reloading, you got the impression that he knew his stuff. THEN I heard him tell the wife - "remember to count how many rounds you fire. You need to know how many shots you have left". That, for me, is when he lost a lot of credibility.

Having never drawn or shot my firearm in an actual self-defense situation I can't say from experience that round count is something way down on my priorities...but I'm convinced that it would be. I've always heard that in a protracted gunbattle, use any break as an opportunity to reload and rack the slide, thus insuring that I have a loaded gun.

So who in the forum are counters, and who are belivers in the tactical reload?

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Stay protected my friends.

I've no experience either(for which I'm grateful), but I believe that anyone who could do that and come out on top would be made of different stuff than I am.

Regards,
Andy

That is a benefit of action competition; you learn to subconsciously keep track of the count, so the reload is not a "surprise, you're out!" event. Not a bad habit to develop (IMHO).

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

I have been told by a medical professional that under substantially stressful situations (a gunfight?) that most humans: have tunnel vision; don't remember hearing sounds (gunfire?); and do not count (as in number of rounds fired). So I tell my CHP students to reload whenever possible and scan the area for additional threats.

everything I have read on this topic suggests that shot count is not possible under stress Most do not have a recall on how many shots were taken during an encounter, and if so, the answer is typically in count error usually resulting in more shots taken than realized.

There are very few that can count rounds expended. That much has already been proven.

The instructor should be teaching cover/concealment while reloading.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

There are exceptional people in all walks of life. So, I have no doubt that there are guys out there who can count their rounds, even under stress. However, that guy is a rarity.

I know several who say they can keep track, but I'll bet most of them can't. Case in point: I was at a defensive training class. I got moved to coach a student I hadn't worked with before. After firing a controlled pair, he looked at the mag, but didn't replace it. I asked him why he didn't do a tac reload and he replied, "Nah, I've got another 12 rounds. I don't need a reload yet." OK, if you think so. (This is actually one of my beefs with a high capacity gun, but that's for another discussion) Two iterations later (far less than 12 rounds) found him staring at an empty gun. It was so unexpected that he actually froze and I had to break him out of it by telling him to move and reload before he got shot.

Now, this was just training and no one was actually shooting at him. Still, he not only lost count, he lost his ability to react. He got caught by his own arrogance.

Even if you can keep track of rounds, which I don't believe most can, there is no good reason not to do a tactical reload (insert a full mag) during a lull in the action. Not doing so is a mistake and could cost you your life.

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Freedom isn't free.

You should always have an idea of the number of rounds left in your firearm, but that kind of awareness is pretty advanced. Good for the instructor for bringing it up, but most people will never be able to get it, including most instructors . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Smarter people than me have said it is impossible, as a practical reality, to count under those circumstances, which is why reloading when you can, as opposed to when you have to, is taught as the preferred course of action.

I am sure that there are a few freaks out there who actually can count rounds fired in a fight for their life, but they are both rare and a darned poor model for most of us mere mortals. Considering that one may have to shoot a lot of rounds to stop a determined adversary, even with good hits, I'd shoot them to the ground and then reload. The actual fight is a far higher priority for whatever intellectual ability you can bring to the event at the time.

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NHI, 10-8.

True. But performing a reload whether empty or tactical could also cost you your life if you do so standing in the open.

But you knew that.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Uh uh. I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well to tell you the truth in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself. But being this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and would blow your head clean off, you've gotta ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?

I carry a 649. I can assure all that if I every need to use this gun in self defense, I will be reloading at the soonest possible opportunity and wishing that I had my 590A1. Some maybe able to count shots. I doubt I will be able to remember my own name.

I have ALWAYS counted my shots - since the very beginning. Thankfully I have never been in a gun fight (and hope I never have to) so I don't really know of the automatic counting I do would automatically happen during a shooting.

When I coach new shooters I always teach them to count - one of the most difficult things to get new shooters to do. Even seasoned shooters at our Gun Club are forever dropping the hammer on fired cases.

If I were an instructor (which I am not) I would teach my students to reload when the opportunity is there - if they find themselves in a prolonged gunfight. I would not even MENTION counting rounds fired. My reasons are:
1) For those that count rounds, the purpose is to "know" when a reload is needed, right? Why not just reload when you can?
2) I don't want them developing a habit that may fail them when needed most....as with Rastoff's student.
3) Force on force classes revealed to me that under stress our mental focus changes. That is, those of us who are NOT special forces operators. I wouldn't want my students to unnecessarily add anything for their brain to have to process.

Perhaps one of my students might one day turn out to be a "truly remarkable" person who CAN count rounds fired under duress, but since my training would be geared toward saving their life I would rather NOT have them counting on it.

Though this thread was not set up will a "poll" the responses have pretty much confirmed what I suspected; most favor tactical reloading over counting rounds. At least, so far!

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Stay protected my friends.

a so called "expert" I know was explaining to some of his students the other day his ability, or lack there of to count rounds fired. he was a LEO in Baltimore some years back and was involved in a gun fight with 2 baddies and 3 fellow officers. when he sat down with IA to be interviewed about the shoot, the question of rounds fired came up. he told said investigators, "I know I reloaded once, so at least 20." to his surprise, and backed up by dash cam, and other evidence, the interviewer explained to him, "you fired your service Glock 17, 52 times... 52. any accounting for the 32 round difference?" he was not a police officer for long after that.

I have been a police officer for 13 years, and I don't count my rounds, or attempt to do so, during shoot trainings. I tried it early on, just to see if I can keep track, but it always turns out that I missed one or two, and that taught me that I shouldn't trust what in the end, turns out to be a guess. I prefer the tactical reload method, and if I need more than the mag in my gun and the two on my belt, well, there's always my M37 inside my shirt...

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Matthew 5:9

As an aside, for those who say they don't or can't count rounds during training, how exactly do you get through your qualification courses? Every course I've ever heard of consists of strings of fire announced by the instructor like this: "On the face, fire three rounds . . . On the face, fire four rounds, perform a reload, and fire two rounds . . . "

Just sayin' . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Very interesting thread! I never really thought of it but agree trying to keep count would be hard for most of us!

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9mm Shield

Counting rounds is a fine suggestion, as long as it doesn't distract you from the task in front of you, survival. With the adrenaline surge, focus on the threat to the exclusion of even hearing shots fired, etc. I doubt training to count rounds spent is helpful.

I recall reading in the day of the revolver that some LEOs would retrieve their spent brass in the middle of a gunfight, as that is how they trained...this would sometimes lead to bad results.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Did anyone say that? I lost count...

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Halfway and one more step

Three thoughts here:

1. Match practice.

If you're shooting a high capacity semi-auto, I doubt you'll be able to count rounds regardless of how much practice you have in a match.

The thing about practical pistol shooting is that it is still largely a known quantity. If you need to hits on the silhouettes and one round on the poppers then you know how many rounds you need, and you'll be acutely aware of any shots that missed.

In essence, you know where you'll need or want to reload, and you mentally adjust for any extra shots taken. That's not the same as counting rounds shot at an assailant.

2. Stress is relative.

The stress and time pressure in a match can be significant, if you're either competitive, or just worried about looking too bad. But that pales in comparison to the stress of receiving fire when someone is trying to kill you.

Some folks will panic or freeze, most folks will devolve to their lowest level of fully mastered training, which for many is pointing the pistol in the general direction of the threat and pulling the trigger. 3-4% of shooters will find themselves very calm, with thought processes running very fast creating the impression that they have lots of time to make decisions and take action. More exposure to life threatening situations increases the percentages, but no one will really know what group they'll fall in until he or she is truly in that situation.

3. Priorities matter, and differ based on what you're shooting.

The large number of rounds fired by a practical pistol shooter under some element of time pressure and mental pressure where the shooter also has to keep track of the rules of engagement (two rounds on this target, 1 round on that target, shoot the next set of targets weak hand only, etc)certainly helps elevate the lowest level of training, and thus frees up more executive brain function for some of the more important decision making.

But in general, if I've got a semi-auto, I'm not going to put any priority on round counts. I'm going to focus on the assailant, and keep putting rounds into the assailant until he goes down. If he does not go down and I'm confident I've hit him center of mass 3-4 times, I'm going to transition to head shots. I'm also going to be focused on moving to cover while shooting.

With all that shooting, moving and assessing going on, counting rounds is a waste of mental bandwidth. It's also a waste of time with a 13-15 round semi-auto as the vast majority of self defense shoots are over in 5 rounds or less in 5 seconds or less.

LEOs may have a need for more rounds on some situations, given that when you're an LEO it's your job to go into dark and scary places looking for trouble. LEOs also have the resources, attorneys and liability coverage of the department behind them. That helps offset the sad fact that a hit percentage of 30% is considered very good under good conditions and is at best half that at ranges over 10 yards, in low light conditions, or when receiving fire.

A civilian shooter on the other hand is fully liable for the round from the time it leaves the barrel until it finally comes to rest. The more round fired, and the more misses made, the greater the potential for civil and criminal liability. The smart move for an armed citizen is to develop solid SA skills that will keep them from ever getting into trouble, combined with extensive practice and practical match shooting to improve their lowest level of mastered training.

One of the artifacts of American LEOs moving from revolvers to high capacity semi autos was a significant increase in rounds fired in engagements by LEOs.

With a revolver and the 5-7 rounds you have available it might make a bit more sense to keep track of rounds, but on the other hand, an extra fraction of a second when you pull the trigger on an empty cylinder is only a minimal increase in the reload time that will follow if the need to shoot still exists.

In general, people shooting revolvers in self defense shoots expend far fewer rounds than people with semi-automatics. In part that is because they have fewer rounds available in the 5 seconds that matter - i.e. the less experienced or proficient shooter has fewer rounds to fire before a slower reload forces them to re-assess the situation. In part however, it's because a more experienced shooter is acutely aware of the limited number of rounds available before a comparatively slow reload is required, and they tend to make those rounds count - regardless of whether they are actually counting them or not.

That same effect is noted in engagements with the .32 ACP and .380 ACP. Those rounds perform better in real world shoots than the terminal ballistics data would suggest, and once you control for purely psychological stops the difference seems to be better bullet placement. If you're carrying a pistol with 6-8 rounds of .380 ACP or .32 ACP, you know you've got a small number of rounds with very limited terminal ballistic potential, and I suspect those shooters who are effective with it are either very lucky or much more deliberate in their shooting.

Hello, I am going to toss in my 2 cents, which will probably seem like I am tossing oranges into a crate of apples.

Fortunately, I have not yet found myself in a fire fight, and honestly hope I never do, for many reasons. About the closest stress situation that I have encountered with a firearm at hand is a rapid fire string in NRA high power rifle competitions. I know that the general rule is to shoot the rifle dry (either 2+8 or 5+5) then reload. I can safely say that while I track the exact number of rounds fired, I could generally state how many rounds I didn't get off due to a jam, misfire, short stroking, or an unexpected cease fire. Generally, my focus was on my rapid fire cadence and my college era coach admonishing me not to shoot and compute!

Honestly, I am torn between shooting a defensive handgun dry and doing tactical reloads for similar reasons. First, running dry will probably occur at the most inopportune time (usually when you can't afford to do a reload). But on the flip side, I hate the idea of wasting ammo when you have a finite supply.

I guess that I am plagued by my greatest fear, being disabled (which I am) and getting caught in the middle of a Wolfpack with mob mentality, such has been seen in Ferguson and Baltimore.

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Judge control not gun control!

Yes. Some years ago I was in, (for the first time) what we're calling a "stressful situation" and found myself trying desperately to remember what color my fathers car was when I was six years old.
Keeping the mind from "hiding while leaving the body exposed" is something that is very difficult to train for. Maybe counting rounds would help. I believe knowing that you can freeze helps to keep from freezing, and that's my experience.

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Halfway and one more step

I grew up hunting with a revolver and for hog hunting keeping track of rounds fired is not a bad thing . If out of ammo your next move it to shimmy up a tree and not quick reload is happing there !! Not bad to train for what probably will never be needed . You don't want to hear a click when a bang was expected but likely only to happen with a very low cap pistol like a cm45 kahr . Shoot some matchs and you will learn to change mags on the run , or hobble depending on age ! You also learn when mags are empty , unexpectedly some times . Last learn to do tap rap bang drills .

Know that not all certified instructor are not equal in skills .

Isn't there an app for that yet?

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- The Federalist #46 -

I think the instructor needs to study how CIVILIAN gunfights actually occur. That would apply to many instructors whose material is more applicable to a relatively improbable dynamic more commonly found in military engagements or even cinema than in any realistic civilian scenario.

Not to get into all the phisiolgical changes that take place, e.g., auditory exclusion, tunnel vision, etc., counting one's rounds ain't going to happen. Chances of being involved in a shooting is very rare, chances of getting into a shooting where you're reloading is even further remote. Realizing the threat, making the decision to shoot, putting rounds on target, and if it last that long, cover and concealment are top priority. Let CSI worry about counting your rounds, that's what they get paid to do.

...by some of the comments herein.

In my LEO career, just about all firearms training was conducted WITHOUT reload commands. We were expected to reload when necessary; and surely knowing when you were empty, in advance, was most useful info.

Moreover, in many training courses 'tactical' reloads were an absolute requirement. One might confront multiple targets without cover and a magazine without sufficient rounds to successfully engage if you did not manage your reloads. We were fully expected to know what we had in the gun and in extra magazines. (And if you discarded a magazine that was not empty you were penalized.)

No, no one was shooting back (save on the paintball courses) and it is much easier to count in such situations, but the object of training is to prepare and improve one's skills.

Be safe.

When confronted with a deadly force situation, counting your rounds is not anywhere near as important as making the one(s) your being forced to fire in self defense count and stop the threat.

I once asked a SF friend if he ever shot with the Delta guys,he told me they were from another universe....told me they could also tell you how many rounds they had left at any time. He was the second guy that told me the D guys were the best he had ever seen....& that included SEALS!
Jim

I xount when I go to the range. Doesnt mean ill be able to do it under stress. Atleast if I do Im sure I wouldnt register that 15 = reload. Doesnt mean its not good practice to try. Also since I dont carry reloads, it doesnt matter to me to reload at a certain count.y

Should round counting be part of a basic handgun course? IMHO, no, and NRA basic pistol does not include it. I don't know what kind of instructor was observed in the initial post, but I do know that some highly qualified people are not automatically good instructors, particularly if they teach "off the cuff" without a plan.

But should round counting be part of an advanced tactical handgun course? IMHO, yes, and I have taken such courses. Frankly, I was already doing it as part of action pistol competition.

The argument that one might not do it perfectly under fire could be applied to any of the handgun fighting skills, so the illogical conclusion of that is there is no point to learn and practice, since there is no guarantee of doing anything perfectly.

My opinion is highly influenced by teaching state-mandated CCL classes, in which some are well-trained and shoot some competition, and some are incompetent and have to be told every step over and over until they manage to pass the shooting portion. When a person is too nervous to load his pistol and hit a target at 5 yards "because the instructor with a timer is there," I suspect they will freeze under fire.

I am opposed to state-mandated training, but I am equally fervent that each individual should train for a gunfight and participate in some kind of action pistol competition for some (simulated) stress practice.

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Science plus Art

IMO, which is based on shooting handguns since I was 7 and 25 years of LE experience, by the time you run your first mag (or cylinder) dry, you should be either already behind or moving for cover. In my dept, while we do recognize round-counting as being a good idea, we also practice mid course of fire reloads. Where you load your 1st mag with 5 (plus 1 in the chamber), then your 2nd mag with 6. That way you get in the habit of learning a fast reload in case you run your gun dry while in the middle of a firefight ... fire the course, and then assess while reloading (and seeking cover) to determine if additional fire is needed. Sometimes our range officer will throw a curve at you when your course is "done" by yelling: "He's getting back up." So you'd best be knowing if there are more rounds available in your gun or if you need to do a reload. In most cases there are only 1 - 3 rounds left in the gun, so a tactical reload is in order if the target has been hit bad enough to go down, but is suddenly getting up again (vest, drug influence etc.) I usually "cheat" and load my 3rd mag full in anticipation of the "suddenly re-active" bad guy.

The range officer will only throw this scenario at you during practice because our qualification course is extremely strict on how many rounds you fire ... 25, no more, no less or points are deducted. So my "cheating" really isn't since with my 9c, 25 rounds is a full gun + one extra mag (12+1 + 12) and if I'm ever in a situation where I've fired 25 rounds and still need more, I'm in WAY over my head.

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Don

I would recommend engaging in some reality-based Force on Force training simulating the reactive close-quarter scenarios armed civilians are most likely be involved in to see the necessity, possibility of or relevance of counting rounds. What occurs during Law Enforcement and especially Military gunfights are usually not indicative of what happens in most civilian encounters.

I don't even keep track during the qualification portion when I go to the range. I'm most certainly not going to worry about it in a fight

Neither.

I practice tacticool reloads because my trainer insists it's a critical skill but I am unaware of any instance in which the fight was won or lost because of a tactical reload.

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Retired Career Security Guard

Not quite the same thing but in his book Baa,Baa, Black Sheep Gregory Boyington recounted that during one engagement one of his pilots decided to time the event with a stop watch.
Thirty seconds start to finish

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Retired Career Security Guard

*
This is shameful behavior by the department, and hopefully happened at least 35 years ago. We now know among other memory gaps will be rounds fired. It is also largely irrelevant in terms of the propriety of the shooting (Plumhoff v. Rickard, although recent, does not reflect new knowledge). He was probably interviewed far too soon after the shooting, among other bad practices.

The IA and command personnel are the ones who should have been disciplined, and brutally.

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NHI, 10-8.

I learned to count my fired rounds back when I first stared in LE when we all carried revolvers. I continued doing it when I transitioned to semi-auto's. Could I do it in a real shooting situation...I have no clue and I pray to god I never have to find out.

This is a brilliant phrase. I'm gonna use that one.

As I read through this, this statement was what was going through my mind.

Like it or not, we have limited capabilities. There are only so many things you can do in sequence, let alone at the same time. In the Air Force "mental overload" is a huge problem as the planes become more complicated. Several accidents have been attributed to this alone.

So, while you're counting rounds, what are you not doing? Situational awareness is far more important.

If there are enough bad guys, shoot to slide lock. It's more important to put a round on the bad guy than to reload. If you are able to deal with the bad guy in just two shots, and there is a pause in the action, reload. It's a mistake to think, "Meh, I still have 15 rounds in the mag, I don't need to reload yet." Better to have 17 in the gun and a 15 round back up than the other way around. Chances are you won't need all those rounds. If you do need them, they'll serve you better in the gun.

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Freedom isn't free.

I have first hand experience using deadly force during my 30 year LEO career more than once. First I never heard a thing so that part is true, at least for me. Next, I was armed w/our issued .38 and I was able to count and know when I was dry. In one instance I had to reload during a protracted gunfight in a parking lot when I emptied my issued Colt DS twice. In another situation I fired three shots w/my issued 4" Model 15 and knew it, but did not have to reload since those three took care of the problem. I don't know how or why I was able to do this but I was. Contrast that experience with qualifying w/my issued Gen II Glock 23 (never had to use that on the street) and I cannot keep track of how many to save my butt. I tried on the range during retiree LEOSA certification and found it was a mistake, so I shot to slide lock and went from there.

I can only guess that the stress of a life threatening gunfight allowed me to "count". The other thing is I was carrying a .38 and it was drilled into us to keep track during training, and it only held six rounds. The Glock holds so many rounds that keeping track is almost impossible, and I never had to use the Glock in a gunfight.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

You're right. Atleast for me during range time I am more accurate in my round count with revolvers than semis.

You know, one does not eliminate the other. The tactical reload is necessary if yoiu don't want to run dry. But if your focus is on an adversary you may just have to shoot the gun dry. Seeking cover, getting off the X, i.e., not getting shot, are equally or more important as the goal of stopping the attack.

Just speaking for myself, (and bear in mind my ONLY experience in these matters is a few years of IPSC a couple decades ago) the "counting" I do is never a "1, 2, 3,..." calculation. It is a subconscious thing, and I cannot claim that I never shot my gun dry or reloaded too soon.

But knowing that you are near expending your ammo is certainly possible, and it does not have to be what your mind is concentrating on. That's why I said that (for me) it is on a subconcious level, and I can only attribute it to the competition shooting that I did. Perhaps being a carpenter and contractor has given me a better facility for carrying numbers around in my head without having to really think about them, but I believe that with the type of practice that action shooting provides, participants will gain a better ability to judge when a reload is coming, and be able to plan accordingly.

YMMV, and I am sure mine will as well if ever someone is shooting at me.

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

2hawk is correct. Counting and Tac reloads are two entirely different things. Also, it is only the right thing to do to continue to engage the threat until it's over. If that requires going to slide lock, so be it. It's faster to do an emergency reload than a tac reload.

However, if you're ever in a situation where you have to shoot to slide lock, and still have adversaries to deal with, may God help you.

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Freedom isn't free.

Like I said above, I have done this (round counting) since I have been shooting - BUT it's NOT something I work hard to do nor did anyone tell me to do it. It just came naturally and I do it automatically. For better or worse, that's just the way I have always shot. When I teach a new shooter I count the rounds they fire and 99.9% of the time they don't - and they pull the trigger on an empty chamber/locked back slide or fired case. I try to get them to count and sometimes it actually does work and they get into it - but not in the majority of the time. I even do this when I Pheasant Hunt.

I am very comfortable (an have always been) around guns and shooting and maybe that is why I am able to always do this - and maybe why Newbies find it more difficult. I also have seen many many experienced shooters pull the trigger on an empty chamber or case, but I do not really know or have any way of knowing their true comfort level. They are probably concentrating on hitting the target more than counting the number of shots they fired.

I actually like it when the students don't count. I see it a lot where they attempt to press the trigger on a locked back slide because they didn't realize they were out.

This is good because it tells me two things. First, I can see if they are jerking the trigger. Second, it lets me know that they are concentrating on the sights.

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Freedom isn't free.

Our instructor taught us to count rounds back in the revolver days. Only had to five are six. Depending on how many he had us load.

I've never been a round counter.....
But, I will recharged my sidearm if given the chance.

I'm in the camp of, "Keep shootin' and maybe count the **** that's falling!"

Oh, a good bug in a like caliber is comforting in such goin's on.


.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

I was a Cop for 35 years. I was in several gunfights. I learned that the yearly qualification was pretty much BS. The instructor's big focus is usually making sure the course uses exactly 50 rounds so that he can keep track of ammo used. From being in gunfights I learned that anytime there's a lull in the shooting you ought to reload. During a fight I never knew how many rounds I'd fired except with my shotgun, for some reason I could do that(?) The rest of the time I was moving and shooting so had to much to do to count. Even now in retirement I qualify each year. When they call a cease fire I'm switching magazines and loading up the one I just removed from the gun. I doubt that will ever have any application in a real fight but it might keep me switching out magazines. I did do some instructing and taught that you always reload during a lull, I did not learn that sitting in a class.

Third, you know that they have no idea of the condition of their firearm before they try to continue to use it . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Never was real good at math. The last two rounds in my primary magazine are Vector tracer rounds