I've read many times that a shrouded hammer is a good idea because there is no hammer to snag on clothing.

Well, I have one shrouded gun (LCR) and two J frames with hammers (31-1 and 60) that I pocket carry.

With the M60 and M31 I have never had a snag when removing the gun from the holster. Not once in over a year of carrying.

Now admittedly, I only draw the gun to put it away in the evening -- and then I'm not under stress.

But is this snagging thing a real problem, or one of those things people worry about that never happens in real life?

The pants I wear (Duluth Trading) have stiff, almost canvas like, fabric in the pockets -- and it never seems to snag even if I try to make it happen.

Seems like an overblown issue to me.

Anyone ever had problems with snagging?

Sometimes people like to create a solution for which there was not a problem . . .

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I think it has a lot to do with the material the pocket is made of, how tight the fit, and your draw technique. That said, I have carried enough pocket pistols / revolvers over the years in pants and jacket pockets to know the slicker the handgun (less sharp edges or protuberances) the less chance of a snag, and the smoother the draw.

Larry

I've owned a model 60 and a exposed hammer Ruger SP101 and they definitely would snag when drawn from a jacket pocket, particularly when not using a holster.

You can place your thumb on the hammer to mitigate it, but I like to be able to retain the ability to put my hand in a jacket pocket, take a firing grip on the gun and be able to use it from there. I picked up the tactic years ago from Mas Ayoob and David Kenik. Despite what some might say, firing from the pocket is indeed a viable technique against sudden ambush style assaults and ECQ scenarios such as when your standing in line at a convenient store or walking down the street and the exposed hammer definitely causes problems.

Then there is the issue of possibly getting entangled in clothing during a close-quarter struggle or the hammer getting hooked/snagged or blocked in a weapon disarm attempt or general ECQ situation.

Don't mind Muss, he must be having a bad day.

They made a whole series of guns to defeat this very problem.....so, yes, it can and DOES happen.

See the Centennial and humpback models for some great examples.....also, folks have been 'bobbing' hammers since the advent of double action firearms......So, It must have happened to enough people to warrant all this fuss

__________________
On the Oak Savannah

Solutions include:
This:

And this:

__________________
-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

It's real. I've had the hammer on a Colt Cobra get snagged once. I was practicing, and that's why you practice. I changed some things around and it mitigated the risk. Alot of it has to do with the way you are dressed.

Remember the era that the hammer shrouds/shrouded hammer guns came out, people dressed quite a bit differently. I think that has more to do with the origins of the type. Marketing forces take over from there.

Shooting through the pocket is a option. I remember the local IDPA shoot had a stage where you had to wear a coat and shoot a few round through the pocket. Needless to say, shrouded hammer revolvers where the choice. To took a little practice, but people got the hang of it enough that it would be pretty dangerous to be on the opposite end at very close range.

So my opinion is that hammer snag is real, but you can mitigate the risk nearly completely with the right clothing/carry method and technique.

Just saying I carried a 66-2 2 1/2" concealed for several years without an issue. I recently put a 60-14 2" in the rotation, haven't had an issue, and don't anticipate an issue. For the record, I have a Ruger LCR and a 640 which I also occasionally carry. I've got nothing against that style, but it's my opinion that a new $500 pistol is an expensive fix to a minor potential problem which can be easily avoided . . .

PS: Bobbing a perfectly good hammer reminds of those people who drop their truck frames to within 3" of the street and cut the roofs off . . .

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I have a Colt Cobra, purchased new in '68, that I had the hammer bobbed b/c I was working an old clothes assignment. From there I purchased a Model 38 flat latch and a satin nickel 442 from a member here about four years ago. For me I prefer to have as many tactical advantages as I can get, especially now that I'm a senior citizen and look like one. An external hammer may or may not get snagged, but why risk it if you have the choice when buying a new/new-to-you gun?

__________________
Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

If you carry genuinely concealed, yep, hammer snag can be a problem.

I respectfully disagree . . .

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

No. Pocket carry a Model 36 from time to time, no issues. Like you, I leave it be when I'm carrying it. So far, so good.

If the question you're asking is:
IS snagging a problem, then I think the answer is "not necessarily"

If the question you're asking is:
CAN snagging be a problem, then I think the answer is "yes"

BUT it can be overcome by clothing and draw technique...

That's now thrice evident in this thread.

Clearly it isn't an issue for you, which is great, but S&W didn't develop -- much less maintain -- many varied solutions to the snag problem absent a cause and a demand.

In pockets or deep concealment holsters under a couple layers of clothes, and needing to draw under the duress of serious threat, Murphy comes calling and the hammers become hooks.

I rarely pocket carry when I'm out and about. I do, however, prefer it for when I'm at home. My 442 spends alot of time in my "lounge pants," (which I believe are actually pajamas, just donned before 7pm!).

In that case, snagging is a concern. I've tried it with a Colt Cobra, with much less success. The material is flimsy and you're not always standing up when you want to draw. IMO, a shrouded hammer is superior in that situation.

__________________
Because of the metric system?

If anything can go wrong it can, at the worst possible time, and Murphy is an optimist. I believe in doing anything and everything I can to help things go right. My cc guns hammers are either concealed or bobbed.

OK, but the other side of thinking is that if you worried about everything you are warned about on the Internet, you wouldn't dare leave the house in the morning.

And it wouldn't matter because everything you could eat causes cancer or some other problem so you would starve to death.

I generally like to question "conventional wisdom".

Thanks for the response.

...........for a hammer to snag at the wrong time, and it could become the worst mistake of your life.

__________________
LEX ET ORDO

Just to note that the hammer snag issue came up decades before the internet existed, and to add my $0.02 cents of fuel to the fire, I feel that it can be a valid concern, not only in coming back during the DA trigger stroke, but in snapping forward during the firing cycle.

__________________
Don

If you question it, then test it.

I've trained LEO's DT and ECQ skills for nearly three decades. We test and evaluate everything using Force on Force scenario drills to see what actually works under pressure and what doesn't. Run some ECQ FoF simulations and see what conclusions you reach.

Cal.44,
Agree , I have pocket carried since 2004, that's 11 years now, two different revolvers , a 38 special and 5 shot 45 acp, both have hammers.
Have never had a snagging problem. Advice from a buddy who is retired police officer " the exposed hammer is not a problem, if it bothers you just trim it but leave enough to cock it with ...".
He was right, It's only a problem if you want it to be a problem or if you have heard and believe it will be a problem
Over ten years of carry has proven to me ...it's not a problem for me !
Gary

Bought my 442 for $350 new last month

In my experience. ....I never had to draw a gun in defense. I carried a 36 when walking my dog. In the winter I'd just throw it in a jacket pocket. It's a canvas material work jacket with a hood. The pocket go sideways instead of vertical. When I'd come home I'd take the gun out. Occasionally the hammer would snag on the edge of the pocket. This is just a casual removal of the gun. It didn't happen all the time but once in a while so I got a 442 to avoid that incase I did have to draw in self defense. Not really a big life changing event. Same little gun just without the hammer

Yeah, but was that solely to fix a snagging issue or also because you didn't have one?

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

It was both. I don't carry revolvers often....very rare so I didn't want to invest in a holster. I carry them for two main reasons. 1) dog walking 2) when due to clothing restrictions I can't carry a FS semi auto. Like a funeral / wedding / an event at a restaurant. ..stuff like that where clothing is specific and deep concealment is needed. I liked the 36 but it was too heavy to put in my sweat pants to walk the dog. Pants would fall down! In a suit it was still a bit on the heavy side. In the jacket it SOMETIMES snagged. When I saw the airweight for $350 / $375 OTD it solved 2 problems. Maybe not exactly "problems" but more like inconveniences.

Like I said it'd not a big deal. Same gun, same ammo, same manual of arms just one is essentially a DAO

The genesis of my question is I have a couple a J frames with hammers that I can shoot well.

One is a 31-1 (32 S&W Long) and the other is a 36-0. Both are 2" snubs and pocket carry nicely.

I also have an LCR 357 which I can't shoot quite as well, but I do carry it sometimes. It's shrouded so no issue with snagging.

Finally I have a M642 which is a couple years old, has no lock, and is a nice gun.

But the 642's trigger is so heavy I can't hit the broad side of a barn from inside the barn with it. I don't feel comfortable carrying it.

I tried the 642 with a laser grip and the dot was jumping around in a 10" radius circle at 30' as I pulled the trigger. I don't have this problem with my other 2" J's or with a couple 3" J's either.

Now I could get a trigger job for the 642 or buy a 640, but I've already spent too much money on guns the last few years and am trying to get by with what I already have.

Are you shooting the 31-1 and 36 single action?

No I'm talking about double action shooting.

I think there are two factors -- the 31 and 36 are both all steel and heavier, and second the triggers are better than the trigger on the 642.

Keep in mind these are close-quarter defense weapons, not target guns. I definitely shoot a 640 better than a 642 in terms of pure accuracy as well as faster follow ups, but I'm good enough with the airweight that the differences are not substantial enough in the context of practical defensive shooting to make me choose the 640 for a carry gun. Being able to hit 5 rapid fire combat accurate shots on target while getting off the X from contact distances out to 21 feet or so with the 642 is more than adequate IMO for the vast majority of scenarios a civilian would likely encounter.

FWIW...

.

I carried on the job in plain clothes a lot of years. Ask anyone who has actually carried a hammer gun everyday/all day what the liner on the inside of their suit coats look like after a few months. Hammers are constantly hanging up on the liner particularly after the liner starts getting a bit worn.

__________________
183rd FBINA

I like the Double Action Only guns best but. I have and carry a 4" 357 with a hammer AIWB. My DAO guns are good for my pocket.

__________________
Two Handguns every day

ispcapt that is why Wally Wolfram invented the hammer protector almost 75 years ago. Or "dog ear" as the Texas Rangers call it. Before that old time FBI Agents stuck a rubber eraser over their hammer spur to save the wear on their jacket lining.

Yup, did the rubber erasure thing.
Here's a picture of the old Hank Sloan holster with hammer protector. The BU agents from the 70s will recognize it. One for K frame and one for J frame

__________________
183rd FBINA

About all Ican add to this thread is to say how much I like the ease in which my Md 649-3 goes into and comes out of a pocket, either pants or jacket. It works for me.

__________________
I'm gonna grow fins.

The holster pictured in post #32 looks like an old style FBI holster all their agents were issued.

__________________
Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

The "conventional wisdom" that made me buy a 640 was gleaned before I ever went on the internet. It came from talking to active and retired police officers and reading the opinions of gun writers, etc. Then I made my own decision. I wanted to switch from an automatic to a snubby for pocket carry, because of how I dress, how I'm built and the kind of work I was doing.

Conventional wisdom convinced me.

The conventional wisdom of the marketplace is that the Centennial revolvers, notably the 642 and 442, are huge sellers and chosen by many LEO's as backup guns. I don't think that's just a triumph of marketing.

Like Old Cop only more so, I'm elderly and look it, and want to eliminate any risks of problems with my gun, no matter how slight they may appear.

__________________
Oh well, what the hell.

It happens and then the revolver goes clattering across the floor. Possibly your Duluth super pants have stiff enough pockets that it's not an issue. Throw a dangling coat or shirt into the mix ...

Depends so much on your definition of 'overblown', I guess.
The issue is not an issue until it happens. It may never, then again, it may. And we all know these things that never happen do happen at the least opportune moment. IMHO it is an issue that could be very costly / catastrophic. It is also a hazard easily eliminated. Just my opinion in response to a legitimate question asked.
One solution:

Another feature of the shroud is that it helps eliminate any interference with the hammer such as clothing or the web of an opponents hand. Usually little consideration given to that, but it is something to add to the list. Remember, the web of the hand is a defensive technique.....

That was a "solution" to prevent officers from using their pistol in single action mode in order to avoid having officers accidently shoot suspects under stress due to the lighter trigger pull. Unfortunately, it's a solution that leads to some officers attempting to stage a DA trigger, a procedure that is even more difficult to do under stress.

I can't imagine anyone pocket carrying one of those.

Several thoughts...

1. There is no such thing as a free lunch, and there are pros and cons to both approaches.

2. The potential issues with carrying a revolver with an exposed hammer are:

a) that the hammer may snag on something while being drawn out of the pocket, and

b) the hammer may be blocked by something in the pocket when be fired from inside the pocket (or purse).

3. The potential issues with carrying a revolver with a completely enclosed hammer are:

a) the inability to feel the hammer coming back and/or physically blocking the hammer from coming back when or pocketing the revolver, increasing the potential of a negligent discharge; and

b) eliminating the ability to fire single action if needed at longer ranges.

4. A revolver should be carried as part of an overall system, with the revolver being well matched to the method of carry.

5. In general, the risk of 3a far outweighs the risks of 2a and 2b, in large part because you'll be holstering or pocketing the revolver every day, while the odds are you will never be involved in an actual self defense shoot, and if you are the odds of the hammer snagging are very low. The rest is just statistics - accepting a low probability but frequent risk in order to avoid a very low probability event occurring during the course of an extremely low probability event doesn't make sense.

6. It's made worse by the fact that people who pocket carry without a holster (to gain the ability to fire from the pocket) usually choose an enclosed hammer revolver - which prevents them from feeling the hammer coming back if an obstruction to the trigger is encountered. In short, they are magnifying the risks imposed by 3a to minimize the risks of 2a and 2b, maximizing the overall risk in order to avoid a tactical issue that almost never happens in the real world.

7. If you are going to pocket carry a revolver with an enclosed hammer, carry it in a pocket holster that allows you to holster the revolver outside the pocket so that the trigger is fully protected before placing it in the pocket. Similarly, if you are going to conceal carry a revolver with an enclosed hammer in an IWB holster, carry it in a holster that similarly, allows you to holster the weapon before placing it in the waistband.

8. If you're really worried about the downsides in 2, and you insist on pocket carrying without a holster, then use a revolver with a shrouded hammer or a bobbed hammer, rather than an enclosed hammer. The shrouded hammer will still allow you to feel the hammer coming back if the trigger is obstructed and the bobbed hammer will allow you to both feel it coming back and physically prevent it from coming back.

Correct. It is.

__________________
183rd FBINA

I like your reasoning in 5. However, there needn't be any risk as described in 3a. I always holster or pocket my Centennial with my index finger behind the trigger. I'm not even sure that failing to do so is worse than pocketing or holstering a Chief without holding the hammer down. IMO, either revolver should be pocketed with the appropriate safety measure. I do feel that a bobbed Chief is slightly easier to handle safely than a Centennial.

Some folks can handle long shots as well DA as SA.

That works great until the day you are under stress and/or time pressure, or perhaps are just highly distracted and put your finger in front of the trigger rather than behind it.

A major training problem is getting officers to constantly drill to have the trigger finger outside the trigger guard when holstering a pistol or revolver. When they don't completely master that, under stress after a real word incident where they've drawn their service weapon, they run the risk of leaving their finger inside the trigger guard when they re-holster the weapon and the finger obstructs the trigger and causes an ND.

You're adding an extra degree of complexity in terms of where the finger has to be inside the trigger guard.

I agree completely that an exposed hammer, shrouded hammer or bobbed hammer revolver (or DA pistol with a hammer for that matter) should be holstered with the thumb behind the hammer.

I also agree regardless of the design they should be holstered or pocketed with the appropriate safety measures - and for an enclosed hammer revolver (or a striker fired pistol with no manual or grip safety) the proper safety measure is to use a holster. It's arguable more important with the shorter, lighter trigger pull of a striker fired pistol, but it is still prudent with a revolver.

I'm not sure that's always a good thing, and even when it is a good thing it just means that SA/DA is not the limiting factor in the system.

I know a lot of shooters who are equally bad SA or DA - that isn't the same as saying the DA shooting is "good".

I'm a pretty fair snubby pistol shot, and off hand, weak hand only I can turn in fairly consistent 6" 5 shot groups at 25 yards shooting DA. However if I switch to SA that group size decreases to around 5", weak hand only.

If we're talking two hand, offhand shooting at 25 yards, then I'm capable of shooting 3" groups at 25 yards DA, and 3" groups SA at 25 yards, but that's bumping up against the accuracy limits of the snubby revolver and a self defense load. Give me a 6" Model 19 and a target load capable of 1"groups at 25 yards and you'll once again see smaller groups with SA than DA when using both hands.

So, DA only isn't a deal breaker, but SA is still a nice option to have in some circumstances.

practically speaking though, unless a shooter is shooting a lot, and shooting DA a lot, they won't be a great shot with a DA only revolver.

I have a 36 and 37 that both have bobbed hammers. I had a 49 before too. I shoot J frames DA only so I don't miss much not having a hammer to cock. I use a Galco pocket holster most of the time that covers the trigger well.
I did have a Colt Detective Special that had a hammer. I found the hammer would hang up pulling it from the inner chest pocket of my Carhart jacket but maybe not a good place to carry it either. I also had same gun hang up on a camo hunt suit trying to draw it from a belt holster to shoot a feral cat. Never could get a shot on the cat which then proceeded to run off and scare a nice buck out of the woods a short distance away. It was quite the chain reaction.
I have just decided no hammer is one less thing I have to deal with on the little guns but my K, L and N frame guns have them but are in holsters with a thumb break which I prefer too.

On the Mod. 49 (and like types) you do have a hammer that you can use if you wish to do so. SA/DA is your choice as the hammer is shrouded, not completely enclosed. That is one of the things that I appreciate about the Mod. 49 style - your options remain.

cal44 I don't worry about everything, but it is logical to make some kind of risk assessment for a credible warning. We are talking here about concealed carry for self defense. 1. The hammer spur can impede your draw time if (or when) it snags. 2. The hammer spur can shred your cover garment. 3. If your cc gun has a hammer spur, under stress you might cock the hammer, which makes it about 3 times more likely for you to unintentionally shoot. With concealed or bobbed hammer, not of these risks happen. One year is not long enough to know. Why take the risks when you don't need to?

Takes him 2 minutes to show the gun is clear. Geeze!

The Centennial models have better double action triggers...

From Massad Ayoob/Grant Cunningham.... Massad Ayoob: Hammer or

Or you can get bodyguard and render it DAO per snub master Michael De Bethencourts recommendations so you can check for high primers or holster/pocket with your thumb hammer. I'm not sure why someone would feel unsafe with a DAO revolver with a 12 lb trigger, but apparently there are a few that feel that way.... snubtraining.com | Snub Training

And single action capability is not necessary or even advisable on a personal defense revolver, especially a snub. Even Clint Smith converts his full size carry revolvers to DAO. It's just never a good idea to cock a revolver in a high stress defense scenario. The idea that you'll ever need to make a single long-range precision shot in a civilian self-defense scenario with your j-frame like some kind of snub sniper is a bit absurd and even if you actually did have to, you can pretty much be just as accurate double action with proper technique and training.

http://www.grantcunningham.com/2013/...-a-bad-review/

....

Agreed. It is amazing how thin the difference between tactical success and abject failure can be...

You can leave the hammer spur alone and still convert the gun to DAO if you use a thumb break holster for security. I believe Mas Ayoob recounted the story of a plaintiff's attorney accusing a police officer of "recklessly cocking" his duty revolver, thus causing the dreaded "hair trigger effect," and accidentally shooting the dirtbag. Can't remember if the dirtbag or his surviving family was suing the officer, but the attorney was waving the officer's gun around in the courtroom, pointing at the hammer. The police officer asked the attorney to demonstrate what he was accusing the cop of doing. Said attorney pulled back the hammer which promptly fell back to the uncocked position since the gun was DAO. I'm told the look on his face was priceless. The judge threw the case out with prejudice IIRC.

__________________
CPT, Armor (Ret)
Luke 22:36

As Mr. X already pointed out, Michael de Bethencourt believes a model 38/49-type shrouded hammer that has been rendered DAO may be the best solution. I tend to agree. Personally, I think of an SA hammer on a defensive revolver as an appendix. It really serves no purpose, but when it goes wrong it can cause pain, suffering, and even death. Fortunately, while we have no choice in being born with an appendix, we can choose to eschew the spur if need be.

Choice of dress and carry method does make a big difference. The pockets on the Duluth Trading Co. jeans are made out of fire hose material. The material is a tough, flexible canvas-like fabric, and the pockets are made extra deep and wide--perfect for pocket carry. The pocket itself is as tough as some of the holsters available. It's little wonder that the OP has not experienced any problems while wearing these. However, I'm guessing dress slacks may be an entirely different animal.

Finally, there's another option no one has mentioned yet: the semi-bobbed hammer as in the model 547 or 317. Without the recurved portion of the hammer, it would seem slightly less snag prone, but there is indeed less for the thumb to grab. Is this solution the best of both worlds or the worst?