Here in Montana and most of the surrounding states do not require you to inform. I have decided that when asked for my drivers license I will provide both it and my permit which I keep in my billfold right behind my DL. Got stopped once and did this. Got a warning and a thank you for giving my CWP. Most LEOs are polite and just doing their job. But, being an old guy seems to help.

I know that in many of my posts, I relate how 'casual' I am regarding contact with legally armed citizens. I have stated that once I am aware that a person has a valid CCW status, my alert level drops a notch. Notice I said a notch, I NEVER let it drop to an "I'm at home watching a Disney Movie level."

I have seen people do a complete 180 in milliseconds and I know people change after the passage of time and different life experiences and that a "normally' good person can turn "bad." Which is why I never stop reading the person/people around me or the situation.

And I'll apologize in advance, but if I come across a shooting situation, where someone is down and there is another person there who identifies themselves and states: "I'm a licensed CCW holder and <that person> was trying to (insert offense)." I am going to handcuff you and put you in the car until things are sorted out. Where I'm at, you'll probably be making a trip to Homicide to give an official statement. Unless you do or say something COMPLETELY off the wall, you ARE NOT under arrest and likely the cuffs will come off before heading to Homicide ... expect this to take several hours, especially if it is a fatal shooting. This is an EXCELLENT time to practice the adrenaline rush control I often speak of. My advise would be tell the truth, no matter how embarrassing it may be, if you were so scared you peed or fouled you pants, SAY SO. Odds are good they will help arrange for you to get clean clothes.

Just remain calm and tell the truth.

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Don

I keep my DL behind my badge, do you think that makes a difference?

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Don

You might want to talk to a prosecutor about that. If you compel them to "go down to homicide" against their will, they're under arrest, cuffed or not. Transporting someone from the scene to the homicide office goes well beyond an investigatory detention under Terry/reasonable suspicion.

If it were me, I'd tell you you were welcome to meet me at my attorney's office for a statement, but that I wasn't going down to homicide unless I was under arrest, and that if I was under arrest, I wouldn't be saying anything until after arraignment and after I'd talked to my attorney. At that point, if you didn't have probable cause to charge me, you'd have to let me go and I'd sue you and you'd have to buy me a new car to compensate me for the time I spent in your lockup. God forbid I got sent to the county and started a fight in the bull pen and got injured. Then you'd have to buy me a car AND a boat AND a truck with which to pull it! And new boobs for my wife for the lack of consortium. Maybe just a cup size though because they're pretty nice as-is.

Or, I could say: "I'm not goin'!" Then you'd have to fight me and hurt my already rotator-cuff-injured shoulder and when they showed the jury the video, your department would settle with me for the car, truck, boat, D-cups AND a new cabin up north! A BIG cabin!

Just because you say: "You're not under arrest" doesn't mean they're not under arrest.

Why must some people choose the hard way?

I apologize in advance to the other readers out there.

You have every right to have a (your) lawyer present when giving a statement, it's just going to make things go longer until he gets there. Do you think that cops give any statements regarding a shooting that they've been involved in WITHOUT their union lawyer present? NO. You forget the fact too that ANYTHING posted on the internet is fair game in legal actions and you have just made statements to the fact that A) You're not going to cooperate with LE officials after YOU have been involved in likely a 'good' shoot. B) You've said that you WILL fight with LE if they try to get you to go to Homicide, then claim injury from an incident you initiated. C) You have stated that YOU will start a fight in "the bull pen" and again claim injury from a second physical altercation that again, YOU have initiated and you think that you'll be entitled to all this money from incidents YOU started. As for when the tapes are shown, odds are that they will show you being the belligerent one instigating the issues. And ALL of this will make it to the Grand Jury when they are deciding whether or not to indict you for killing Joe Scumbag, Do you think it will shine any doubt on your word that "you had no choice but to shoot him?"

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Don

Yes, why DID they write those pesky 4th, 5th, 6th and 14th amendments?

Why are you apologizing? I have a feeling that anyone who is able, might learn something.

Bwwaaaa haaa haaaa! Yeah, it's going to "make things go longer" while I'm in the comfortable and familiar environment of my HOME as opposed to the homicide office! Then at the appointed time, either my lawyer and I will show up to talk to the detective (and I'm guessing you're not one...) or the detective will show up at my attorney's office and we'll talk. Or not.

The statement for the last one I was involved in was taken the next day. And, yes, cops generally DO give a basic statement to the arriving officers and bosses about what happened, BEFORE they talk to their lawyer. Kind of hard to manage the scene of a police shooting otherwise, don't you think? Before anything beyond the VERY general gets said, a lawyer is involved if the officer is smart.

As far as their "union lawyer", sure, if that's who they're satisfied with and it was a good shooting. Otherwise, I think I might get a better lawyer. Especially if I'm arraigned on charges.

I don't give a rat's ***. I'm retired. YOU, on the other hand, have admitted you make bad arrests not based on probable cause. Can you say "Giglio"?

As far as the other BS as to what I "admitted".... I only said I'd do that after you wrongfully arrested me, without probable cause, in order to take me down to homicide without a lawyer, as a way to impress upon you what could happen if you ever try that **** with someone who knows what they're talking about.

Just thinking about your career, pal. I've already had mine. (That is if you ARE an actual sworn policeman with more than a week on the job).

Dude, now, when you go to court, if an attorney asks you: "Officer Don, have you ever made an arrest that you knew, or should have known, to be unlawful?" You're going to answer: "Have I EVER! Any time I have a homicide scene, I unlawfully arrest the survivor, cuff him, put him in my car and take him to homicide! Hell YES I make me some unlawful arrests! Wooooohooooo! Probable Cause, Schmabable Cause!" And after THAT, every time you go to Federal Court, when the AUSA's secretary calls the detectives on a case you're involved in and asks: "Are there any Giglio issues with anyone involved in this case?" The detective is going to say: "Aw, ****.....Yeah....'Ole officer Don locks up all kinds of people without probable cause when he has a shooting. Doesn't matter. Probable Cause or not. Slaps the cuffs on and right down to homicide so they can hire an attorney and cool their jets for a couple of days....Why? Is his testimony crucial?"

"Well, yeah!"

"Well, you may as well toss THAT case. He's going to have to testify that he made three years worth of bad arrests and that he didn't know the difference between probable cause and reasonable suspicion...."

Ohhhhh boy. Pretty soon your nickname around the locker room is going to be "FCD", or "Federal Consent Decree".

Giglio has to do with informing the defense that a witness may have entered into a deal with the prosecution for his or her testimony. It has nothing to do with probable cause issues.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/fed.../150/case.html

Yep, same here...sometimes a rifle and shotgun during dove and deer season. Doors unlocked with full magazines. During nighttime football games I'd bring them in the locker room and sit them in the coaches office because the humidity was lower. Also need to mention my dad was the city chief of police and I was in California. The good ole days...

99% of how a cop reacts to this scenario is based on the local gun culture.

In the context of an officer who is testifying in a federal case, Giglio has to do with integrity issues on the part of the officer. The AUSA will contact the detective bureau (usually) to see if any officers involved in the case who are expected to testify have had any issues in the past with truthfulness, integrity, etc. Those officers will generally not be called by the prosecution to testify, AND any issues may or may not be disclosed prior to trial. Also, once burned as a liar, an officer who has a "history" will never be assigned (if his department decides to keep him) to a place where he may be called to testify in likely federal cases; narcotics, for example. If you made a bunch of arrests you knew, or should have known were bad, for example, and then you lie about it somewhere along the line in court, and someday you get involved in a federal case and the AUSA's office calls up and says: "Does officer X have any Giglio issues?" His supervisor will go through his file and say "yes" or "no". If yes, an explanation is given and they go from there.

And the criminal defense attorney community knows who is who.

So for example, if Officer Don ever gets on the stand and is asked "How many arrests have you made that were unlawful or that a reasonable police officer should have known were unlawful?" If he says "none that I know of..." and gets caught in the lie when someone sees his post here about how he locks up everybody at a homicide scene except the dead guy: Bingo. Giglio issue. If he's not fired, he'll be stuck in an administrative position where there is little to no likelyhood of him having to ever testify in court.

But I was just using his own example of how you can get burned posting on the internet. Instead of just googling Giglio (haa haa, that sounds funny, like the Bo Diddly song.......) Google "Giglio" "Police Officer" "Liars squad" and see what you get.

**Sorry, I meant to say in my other post, if he makes a bunch of unlawful arrests and then lies about it.......From now on, if anyone asks that question, he'll either have to say "yes I made a bunch of unlawful arrests" or "no...." Or I guess he can nervously hedge and look like a liar.....

I apologize retroactively to the other readers.......

Thanks to CelticSire and Dr.Lou for trying to keep this thread civil ... BUT I will not allow someone to try and intimidate me with false accusations and imagined basis for lawsuits


RSanch111

My, my, aren't we touchy. You want to talk about the 4th, 5th 6th and 14th Amendments and start spreading garbage about how I'm a 'Giglio' cop when I give an idea of what is likely going to happen if you are involved in a shooting. I will repeat: I or the first arriving officer will disarm you, handcuff you and put you in the back of the car while we begin sorting things out. Doing anything else would be considered dereliction of duty ... not securing a felonious assault or homicide suspect. Yes, I said it, felony SUSPECT. I never said *I* would be the one arresting you, that's not my call, I'm just a beat cop and it's up to the bosses what will happen to you.

Even on the first day of the academy, a cadet knows that the killing of a person, by another person regardless of the reason, is a homicide. It's up to the Coroner and the Grand Jury to decide if it was justified or not. And at the moment in time when the first uniformed officers arrive on the scene, there is more than enough probable cause to arrest you for homicide and let you sit in jail for a few days before anyone decides to talk to you. Please, enlighten me on how that is a bad arrest? Is it because you have a concealed carry license or are an ex-cop. I know of a few ex-cops that shouldn't be allowed to have a water pistol. Some quit, some retired, some were retired and some were fired. You say you are retired, but who's idea was it for you to retire, yours ... or the department's? Was it a "retire or be fired" kind of thing. Between your obsession with Giglio and obvious "dislike" for the police, I am forced to believe it was the latter assuming you were a cop at all.

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Don

No sense in going on with this. You clearly indicated you arrest people involved in self-defense shootings with no probable cause. Implied it's no big deal because "it just makes it go longer" waiting for a lawyer at homicide after a bad arrest than it does to go home and come in the next day, and you implied that people who exercise their 4th amendment right to being free from unreasonable seizure are "doing it the hard way".

Then, when I try to impress upon you the consequences of making bad arrests as a matter of policy, you try to tell me it could be "used against me". The guy who admits making bad arrests as a matter of course is going to tell me what can be used against me.

You said that "you are not under arrest" while headed down to homicide after being cuffed and put into the back of a police car. Clearly, you have no idea what constitutes an arrest for 4th amendment purposes.

You also implied there was something wrong with waiting until the next day to make a statement in the absence of probable cause and that this is somehow "anti-cop". Really? What do you have against people exercising their 4th, 5th and 6th amendment rights?

Good luck with your career. I hope you make chief while you still know everything. I don't hate cops at all. I kept a lot of them out of trouble over 30 years by letting them know when they were clueless. the smart ones paid attention. IF YOU COMPEL SOMEONE TO GO DOWNTOWN EVEN THOUGH YOU TELL THEM "YOU ARE NOT UNDER ARREST", YOU'VE ARRESTED THEM. That's what you should take away from this instead of trying to backpedal with: "Uh, uh, I didn't say it was ME who was going to take them downtown, I'm just a lowly beat cop! No, it will be the more experienced detective who unlawfully arrests them! I know what a lawful arrest is! The detective doesn't know!" Right......

I promised HANDEJECTOR I would play nice, so enjoy your retirement, I'm sure it's well deserved.

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Don