Civilians versus terrorists with armor?

Mister X · #**101** 12-02-2015, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmort666

Maybe, but it appears that you let other people's fear rule your life, as well as fear of their disapproval.

I have no children and I don't fly, mostly because I have no desire to be part of contemptible security theater.

And again, I've yet to call anyone a coward. On the other hand, all this talk of people being "cowards" for NOT wanting to be helpless, disarmed victims strikes me as being strongly rooted in projection...

I wasn't the one who started labeling people cowards.

I was just thinking if I didn't have a Wife and Children to protect and provide for, I would most likely feel very different. In fact, before I was married, I worked security at a retail store next to some housing projects. I chased down shoplifters on a daily basis far beyond what was required by my job description and duties. I've been shot at, had people try to stab me, attack me with metal pipes as well as being involved in countless H2H skirmishes during those years and loved every minute of it. I received a couple of commendations from the City Police, one from rescuing an Officer who was assaulted by a shoplifter I had caught and handed over. My reputation and business of teaching LEO's DT, ECQ FoF was largely built on the work I did at that job. There's no way I would do it now. I don't fear violence, but getting killed and leaving my family behind to fend for themselves is something I very much fear.

GatorFarmer · #**102** 12-02-2015, 05:05 PM

What a depressingly prescient topic.

cmort666 · #**103** 12-02-2015, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister X

I wasn't the one who started labeling people cowards.

Neither was I, so where did it come from?

Ozark Marine · #**104** 12-02-2015, 05:41 PM

Kinda pointless now Mister X. Your theory of it not happening just got blown away. Good Luck. Hope you stay safe.

Mister X · #**105** 12-02-2015, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmort666

Neither was I, so where did it come from?

It was back on post #91

Muss Muggins · #**106** 12-02-2015, 05:43 PM

Just for clarity, the first use of the word "coward" in this thread was by Ozark Marine (in post 91) . . .

Ozark Marine · #**107** 12-02-2015, 05:50 PM

Read post 91. I wrote it.

lrrifleman · #**108** 12-02-2015, 05:54 PM

Folks, I think that this thread is basically reiterating what the American population use to be. Sadly, too many people lack the spine to stand up for themselves, or are unwilling to do the work that is required to get the job done.

Sadly, I think that the respondents in this thread will be the less endangered because we are contemplating a plan to address a REAL threat.

cmort666 · #**109** 12-02-2015, 06:08 PM

The San Bernardino shootings were supposedly committed by three Middle Eastern men, in body armor, carrying Kalashnikovs, at a center for the developmentally disabled. The latter detail certainly bears all of the hallmarks of ISIS's infantile cruelty.

No doubt it will be chalked up to "workplace violence"...

lrrifleman · #**110** 12-02-2015, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmort666

The San Bernardino shootings were supposedly committed by three Middle Eastern men, in body armor, carrying Kalashnikovs, at a center for the developmentally disabled. The latter detail certainly bears all of the hallmarks of ISIS's infantile cruelty.

No doubt it will be chalked up to "workplace violence"...

I am not challenging you. Just being the teacher in me. May I ask what source shared the above information?

cmort666 · #**111** 12-02-2015, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrrifleman

I am not challenging you. Just being the teacher in me. May I ask what source shared the above information?

As I recall it was on either ace of spades or instapundit and had been broadcast by one of the local law enforcement agencies.

lrrifleman · #**112** 12-02-2015, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmort666

As I recall it was on either ace of spades or instapundit and had been broadcast by one of the local law enforcement agencies.

Thank you. Looks like the moderators are looking to quelch theorizing based on content of another thread. Documented discussion is hard to shut down.

Old TexMex · #**113** 12-03-2015, 12:47 AM

Elimination of "gun free zones" would be a good start at eliminating the threat.

Arik · #**114** 12-03-2015, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old TexMex

Elimination of "gun free zones" would be a good start at eliminating the threat.

But that's the only thing holding criminals at bay!

elm_creek_smith · #**115** 12-03-2015, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naphtali

In many terror attacks, in USA and abroad, terrorists wear body armor. I know close to zero about body armor, less about the type of armor available to "your average run-of-the-mill" terrorist. I anticipate that body armor will not be close to US infantry and/or government enforcement agencies - FBI, metropolitan SWAT teams, et al. These agencies are much more likely to violently engage terrorists than civilians - that is, us - so their weaponry and ammunition would be designed to penetrate terrorists' body armor. The agencies' would be less dependent upon being concerned about penetration. Schools are having staff participate in NRA classes to be emotionally and physically able to use handguns to thwart such situation.

What about CCW-ers, open handgun carriers, people - like us - who have handguns secreted in their cars and trucks? A large majority of these people will have quickly available some sort of handgun of 357 Magnum caliber and smaller, nearly all using some sort of controlled expansion bullet. How are we supposed to "deal" with terrorists with armor? Shooting them in the head sounds like what might be a typical response. In such an emergency it is nonsensical to expect clear, clever thinking. (Notice the bazillion shots that LEOs fire in many gunfights.) Likely, a hit anywhere in the torso would have a degree of luck attached.

I personally would be afraid to carry any 357 Magnum ammunition in my S&W 640 that would be effective penetrating body armor while remaining controlled expansion. I also would not carry armor-piercing Full metal jacket high velocity ammunition because it is a one-trick pony; it penetrates armor. Dealing with run-of-the-mill muggers, armed robbers, et al., these bullets would antagonize the bad guys before bleeding them out.

So what do we do?

In the event of an active shooter situation, as we saw yesterday in San Bernardino:

1. The "authorities" won't be there to respond in time, so you'll be on your own.

2. Take cover*, and, if possible, retreat with as many people as you can. The goal is to get out alive.

3. If forced/able** to engage the shooter(s), use cover*, shoot for center mass. Most people wearing typical soft body armor will go down when hit even if they have ballistic plates.

a. If the shooter(s) is(are) not wearing body armor, this is your best chance to stop them.

b. If the shooter(s) do not go down or retreat (They generally aren't expecting resistance.), re-engage targeting the pelvis first or the head if you can't. (Odds are the shooter(s) will not be wearing bomb squad armor.) Even if you can't penetrate their body armor, you may disable them with a peripheral hit.

*(Cover is whatever will STOP whatever the shooter(s) is(are) using. Overturned tables/desks are NEVER cover, but they may conceal your movement to cover.)

**("Run, Hide, Fight" is not always an option due to a number of reasons. "Run" might be ruled out by physical condition or lack of a place to go. "Hide" is a poor choice if it doesn't include cover* and the capability to block access to the hiding place.)

We have to tailor our EDC carry for the most likely threats we face. Body armor wearing active shooters are going to be like dinosaur-killing meteors. If this changes, we should probably all start carrying "modern sporting rifles with normal-capacity magazines" and/or start wearing body armor of our own. Again, the goal is to get out alive.

My duty weapon is a four inch S&W Model 686-6 loaded with premium 158 grain .357 Magnum ammunition. Our rangemaster won't let me shoot at his steel targets closer than 25 yards. I also wear soft body armor at work, the nature of which will require me to engage/contain an active shooter(s) until support arrives. (I'll be adding plates soon.)

Off duty, I carry a 3 inch Model 13-3 .357 Magnum. Additionally, I always carry a Model 642-2 and/or a Model 37. Reloads are a given. If a credible threat exists, wearing body armor off duty is an option.

GatorFarmer · #**116** 12-03-2015, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elm_creek_smith

3. If forced/able** to engage the shooter(s), use cover*, shoot for center mass. Most people wearing typical soft body armor will go down when hit even if they have ballistic plates.

a. If the shooter(s) is(are) not wearing body armor, this is your best chance to stop them.

I was wondering about your source for that information. The guy behind Second Chance Armor used to stand on one leg and shoot himself at contact range with a .44 Magnum without going down, and that was mid 80s armor. I read numerous first person accounts of people wearing armor who said a hit felt at worst like a punch and others who claimed not to notice.

I knew active duty folks who claimed their rifle plates had taken AK rounds and these did not in any way incapacitate them.

As some of the "Hajis" started to show up with armor, there was apparently an issue of black tip AP 5.56, the specs of which are somewhat hard to come by. This supposedly penetrates as well, or better than, the old .30-06 black tip. It is not sold commercially and I am not even sure if it is available to LE.

Kifaru · #**117** 12-03-2015, 12:34 PM

Whether or not a threat wearing body armor is "incapacitated" by a good guy's return fire is not really the point. The threat will not just soak up rounds and methodically keep moving as if he/she were The Terminator. The threat will have to alter the plan and change from indiscriminate fire to focused fire, and possibly alter movements to seek cover or prevent flanking maneuvers. They generally will not be expecting civilian resistance (probably one reason the latest incident happened in San Bernardino and not Cheyenne) and will have to adjust tactics, perhaps radically. Intervening will likely save lives, even if not your own.

GatorFarmer · #**118** 12-03-2015, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kifaru

Whether or not a threat wearing body armor is "incapacitated" by a good guy's return fire is not really the point. The threat will not just soak up rounds and methodically keep moving as if he/she were The Terminator.

The armor clad robbers in the Bank of America robbery some years ago actually did strut around, soaking up rounds, and shooting back at the police. Video footage is readily found online and I remember watching the live coverage.

16thVACav · #**119** 12-03-2015, 02:13 PM

No body armor worn by the bad guys in SB yesterday, per the police chief.

elm_creek_smith · #**120** 12-03-2015, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorFarmer

I was wondering about your source for that information. The guy behind Second Chance Armor used to stand on one leg and shoot himself at contact range with a .44 Magnum without going down, and that was mid 80s armor. I read numerous first person accounts of people wearing armor who said a hit felt at worst like a punch and others who claimed not to notice.

I never saw Richard stand on one leg, but I've seen the demonstration. The important thing to remember is that he knew it was coming. As far as the other "accounts," I can't speak to them. I have seen plenty of dashcam videos of body armor wearing police officers getting shot during traffic stops, going down, but continuing the fight.

Quote:

I knew active duty folks who claimed their rifle plates had taken AK rounds and these did not in any way incapacitate them.

Combat is like that. You kind of expect that you can get hit and your adrenaline is so high that you sometimes do things that you don't remember. I had a platoon sergeant that had to be pulled back down into his tank by the loader after he realized Bob was standing on the turret in the middle of an ambush shooting his M1911A1 after his Ma Deuce ran out of ammo.

Quote:

As some of the "Hajis" started to show up with armor, there was apparently an issue of black tip AP 5.56, the specs of which are somewhat hard to come by. This supposedly penetrates as well, or better than, the old .30-06 black tip. It is not sold commercially and I am not even sure if it is available to LE.

Not my war. Don't know.

As for the LA Shootout, those guys were heavily armored (not just vests). They met in a gym and may have been steroid users. They had also taken phenobarbital before the action to calm their nerves.

Cal44 · #**121** 12-03-2015, 03:17 PM

At the news conference in San Bernardino today, the police chief said when they were taken down in the SUV the two "suspects" has two semi-auto 223 rifles and 9mm handguns. They also fired 76 shots at the police and had 1400 rounds of 223 ammo plus a couple hundred rounds of 9mm in the SUV.

I guess I need to add a second speed strip to carry with my 5 shot J frame revolver.

Seriously, it's not clear anything I can do can prepare for something like this.

I've relied on the fact that the mid-sized CA town I live in has no high profile targets, but now I wonder, if these people attack a health care facility -- everywhere has those.

elm_creek_smith · #**122** 12-03-2015, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cal44

I guess I need to add a second speed strip to carry with my 5 short J frame revolver.

Seriously, it's not clear anything I can do can prepare for something like this.

I've added an extra J-frame to my duty carry, and off-duty I'm not leaving the house without my 3 inch Model 13 and 2 speedloaders in addition to my Model 642-2 and two speedstrips.

Quote:

I've relied on the fact that the mid-sized CA town I live in has no high profile targets, but now I wonder, if these people attack a health care facility -- everywhere has those.

They attacked a "holiday party" that was renting space in the conference center. Any gathering where people are engaged in "unacceptable" activities may be targeted.

YogiBear · #**123** 12-03-2015, 07:40 PM

Aloha,

Here is video of Richard Davis of Second Chance wearing one of his vests shooting himself with a 44 magnum Winchester Black Talon.

Note that he puts a stack of magazines behind the vest to probably reduce getting blunt trauma damage.

Richard Davis Body Armor - Bing video

The newer armor is probably much better than what he's wearing.

But, as was mentioned earlier, getting hit by a 40 cal magnum will get the shooter's attention and maybe distract him from shooting others.

If the BG doesn't go down, then the citizen shooting has seconds(or less) to change point of aim to what he(or she) thinks is a softer target.

Let's not forget the Garland Texas traffic cop on special duty that engaged the 2 long gun armed jihadists with his issue sidearm. He took both down with a handgun.

Police: Men killed in Garland shooting had assault rifles, body armor | Dallas Morning News

And then there is the civilian in Tyler Texas that took on a nut case armed with an AK. The civilian lost his life in the shooting, but not before hitting the BG several times with his 45.

The thing to note is that the civilian did make a difference and probably saved other lives.

His getting involved changed the shooter's plans and gave police time to respond.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_courthouse_shooting

I think these discussions help because now those who have a CCW permit are aware that if center of mass shots don't work, then it's time to change point of aim.

cmort666 · #**124** 12-03-2015, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cal44

I've relied on the fact that the mid-sized CA town I live in has no high profile targets, but now I wonder, if these people attack a health care facility -- everywhere has those.

Going after random targets in SMALLER communities spreads a GREATER sense of insecurity.

I avoided New York City for most of my life. I don't HAVE to go there.

I HAVE to go to work and to the grocery store.

smith46wesson · #**125** 12-03-2015, 09:37 PM

It's been a M&P9c with a spare magazine and a M&P bodyguard 380 most days since Paris, not just one or the other.

Highhawk1948 · #**126** 12-03-2015, 09:43 PM

A retired CIA fellow showed me his target range several years ago. It was card board cut outs of humans. All the bullet holes were in the head.

YeshuaIsa53 · #**127** 12-03-2015, 10:39 PM

Ever noticed someone running TO the report of a gun? I have. Best response is the one telling you what to do.

amazingflapjack · #**128** 12-03-2015, 11:18 PM

cross bow with incendiary bolt.

OldeTSgt · #**129** 12-04-2015, 12:02 AM

Well, as a retired military member and veteran of Persian Gulf and OIF and former LEO and CO - I will resist if I have the means to do so - I may go down fighting but at least I am fighting - and that may mean someone gets away because I did choose to fight

cmort666 · #**130** 12-04-2015, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldeTSgt

Well, as a retired military member and veteran of Persian Gulf and OIF and former LEO and CO - I will resist if I have the means to do so - I may go down fighting but at least I am fighting - and that may mean someone gets away because I did choose to fight

Back in the FidoNet days a member of the anti-gun cult decried the idea of European Jews arming themselves and fighting genocide. In fact, he denigrated those Jews who perished because they had no place to which to flee. I asked him how long and how far he'd keep running, and what he'd do when there was no place left to run TO.

If we run from these animals instead of fighting back, we'll be run right out of our own country.

NO, I REFUSE.

inspcalahan · #**131** 12-05-2015, 05:18 PM

Just having something along for the ride, while better than nothing at all, won't necessarily be the answer. Whatever you carry, you must be proficient with it. Society is changing and I believe we are going to see a change in mindset from "self defense" to "self offense". A one on one attack puts the victim in defensive mode. Attacks similar to what we are now experiencing on a more frequent basis (San Bernardino, school shootings, active shooters in malls, etc..) are changing that to an offensive mode. Those prepared to fight are being thrust into positions where they must counter the assault, fight back and switch seats with who is on the run. A reliable, accurate firearm with plenty of ammunition must also be partnered with plenty of practice and mindset preparation.

Back on topic - currently, I'm normally found out and about with a Sig in .357sig, an extra mag or three and always a BUG as well - currently a small Sig P290 in 9mm - is carrying, wearing and adjusting the wardrobe for all this fun? Nope, but it's necessary I believe. There's also a long gun and a serious trauma/first aid kit along in the vehicle on most outings. It's a mindset and a commitment.

Whitwabit · #**132** 12-26-2015, 12:21 AM

Either head shots or a round to the big budge around their middle ..

Have added head shot practicing at 30-50 feet to my routine the last couple of range visits and have notice others doing the same ..

No it would not be the normal point of aim in a normal self defense scenario but then a terrorist attack is not at all normal.

Its unlikely that I will ever be in a situation like that or even a self defense situation but we prepare for that .. but if you don't train for it, it will be harder to revert to head shots if they are needed ..

therewolf · #**133** 12-26-2015, 12:31 AM

In the exceptionally rare event that I was involved in an event like this,(meaning terrorists had the unbelievable BALLS to
show up in my neck of the woods, where everybody pretty
much carries, ALL the time) I would far rather go down
swinging hard, than cringing, defenseless...

zzclancy · #**134** 12-26-2015, 12:40 AM

Headshot! Practice, Practice and Practice.

I'm thinking the cop who took out the two in Texas with his Glock practiced, a lot. Advanced into the gunfire. Good shot and absolutely courageous.

zzclancy · #**135** 12-26-2015, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shotgun693

If you are a civilian, retired Cop or retired military and there is a terrorist attack, do your very best to get out of the area taking your family members and friends with you. You will be out gunned. You will not have any communications with the Police/First Responders and no one will know you are a good guy, you'll just be an unknown with a gun. You will not have your AR, Garand, Grenade Launcher or other neat stuff with you. You will not have Air Support nor Artillery. You will have an easy to carry handgun. There is the high likely hood that, at the least, you will tie up Police in trying to figure out who you are or, they might even kill you. If, if, by wild chance you get the opportunity to shoot a for sure bad guy, then do it. Then do your best to leave the area and consider yourself very lucky. After everything is over you can go to the local agency and report what you did.

Warriors Ethos - can't accept defeat, can't surrender and I could never leave a fallen comrade.

I was also trained to advance in the gun fire. If I can save any lives my sacrifice will be worth it.

zzclancy · #**136** 12-26-2015, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gen3guy

I carry in order to protect my personal safety and that of my loved ones. I am not obligated to engage any and all threats to the general public. That's the job of law enforcement. If retreating without firing a shot gives me the best chance of waking up tomorrow, that is exactly what I will do.

The idea that any one civilian with a handgun can contribute to the neutralization of a major terrorist threat is delusional.

It sounds so cowardly.

zzclancy · #**137** 12-26-2015, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister X

So, what would have been your plan?

Remembering that you wouldn't have been armed, the attack was perpetuated by three terrorist firing down on the crowd from the Mezzazine. There were approximately 1,500 people at the Bataclan Theatre when the attack started. 89 people were killed, 1,411 survived. So, even despite what would seem like a horrific worst case scenario of "shooting fish in a barrel", the vast majority survived.

They reloaded repeatedly. You charge. You use anything you can as a weapon. Ever heard of courage and self sacrifice?