This came up while discussing another subject in a different forum, but Jack Flash thought it would be interesting to discuss here where this conversation really belongs.

I'm sure that a lot of folks here utilize shotguns for HD weapons. I use a Mossberg Model 500 12 gauge 3" magnum shotgun (pistol grip, 18" barrel... plug removed so it has 5 round capacity, 6 with one in the pipe).

When it comes to home defense, one thing that always concerns me is penetration. This is the reason why I keep my other HD weapon, a Colt Trooper Mark III .357 magnum, loaded with .38 Special hollow points.

And so the question is, if you use a shotgun for HD, what model is it and with what type of ammo?

It seems a lot of people seem to love 00 Buck for HD, but I would think that it's way overkill for the purpose and would cause some serious penetration issues through walls etc. (especially if 3" magnum shells were used). Some of my friends call me crazy, but I keep mine loaded with 5 rounds of 2-3/4" number 6 or 8 bird shot, somewhere in that range. While I certainly realize what Buckshot would do to someone at close range, my philosophy is that shooting someone in the face for example with up to 5 rounds of the shells I use would definitely screw up their whole weekend.

Opinions? Thanks in advance!

I live on a pretty sizable lot with many trees, so penetration is not an issue.

I have an 870 Police model loaded with 2 3/4" 00 Buck.

__________________
On the Oak Savannah

Any load that will penetrate a bad guy deeply enough to cause an incapacitating wound is capable of causing serious injuries after passing through wallboard. My philosophy therefore is you should use the best ammunition in order to end the situation in as few shots as possible. The fewer shots I fire, the fewer chances I have to miss. The sooner the bad guy goes down, the fewer shots he can fire, both hits on me and misses that can also over-penetrate.

#1 buck is supposed to be the ideal shot size:

I think you'll be well served with the lighter shot, your only shooting 20 to 30 feet max inside the house.

__________________
John

I have a Winchester Defender with an 18" barrel. If I get serious I use Double 00 Buck. When loaded in the house I use Reduced Recoil #4 buckshot. I can't remember where I got those #4's but they are 2 1/2" long.

I have a H&R Pardner 12 gauge, keep it loaded with 2 3/4 LE low recoil.

__________________
Semper Fi until I die

There is a reason that birdshot is called "bird" shot... it's for shooting birds. I use #8 on dove, and sometimes they are able to fly off after being hit... If it doesn't stop a dove, do you want to take a chance with an intruder?

I also disagree with using a pistol gripped only shotgun. One advantage of using a long gun is that they are easier to shoot, due to the stock adding an extra contact point on your body and providing more stability. That stability also allows you to get back on target faster with the heavier recoil of a shotgun. Pistol grip only shotgun looks great in movies, but not as useful for HD.

I have two shotguns. I keep neither loaded. I do keep ammunition carriers with them. One is a Mossberg 500 12 gauge. It came with the pistol grip kit, I really ought remember to take that to the pawn shop and sell it for $5. I have owned and fired 500s with the factory pistol grips and did not find them to my liking.

My ammunition is Federal Magnum 2 3/4" OO buck and a greater quantity of good old solid one ounce lead slugs.

I own the gun primarily for if a bear breaks in. Yes, they do that, albeit rarely. Either load will work on humans.

My other shotgun is an old Diamond Arms (Iver Johnson) 16 gauge single shot painted camo, shortened and with some sort of stainless compensated choke on it. I have Number 1 buck and also slugs for it. It actually shoots quite nicely, the more so for the $45 it cost me. It would work on humans in a pinch, but I bought it with the idea of it being a squirrel annihilation device. I hate squirrels.

I used to have a 7-shot Remington 870 loaded(full magazine, empty chamber) with 00 buck. It's use would have been reserved for situations where there was ample lead time to get the family into the designated safe room. In that context, which would be one of firing from a static position down the hall should intruders break down the door, I think the 00 buckshot was probably a good choice.

However, I quickly changed my opinions about the shotgun's (or any long gun) suitability as a home defense weapon after conducting some Force on Force scenario drills in my own home with some of my students who were Police Officers. It quickly became apparent that it was highly unlikely I could even get to and effectively deploy the shotgun in many situations, let alone have everyone gathered together and defend from a static position in the various probable scenarios we drilled. I was always of the opinion that the handgun was the better choice if having to move through the home, but now prefer it for pretty much every home defense scenario including defending from a static location based on what I learned from those FoF experiments.

Irregardless, I think the shotgun has fairly limited viability as a home defense weapon no matter the application.

Ballistic personal defense weapons work by penetration. Think about that then think about trying to limit penetration.

I keep a Remington 870 tactical 12 ga shotgun loaded with 2-3/4" 00 buckshot.
Also a Colt AR15 & a 1911 in 45acp.
Others prefer a 20 ga.

__________________
2B1ASK1

I've used an 870 for years with zero jams or misfires. Knock on wood. So my choice would be that equipped with an 18" barrel and an extender tube with 7 in the pipe and Winchester 2 3/4 00 buck.

My current home is inappropriate for any kind of non-NFA long gun, but when I did maintain a shotgun for home defense, I used #4 buck with slugs for backup.

Remington 870 Police Magnum and Federal Flight Control 00 buck in the magazine, chamber empty.

I used to keep #1 buck in it but after pattering the Federal Flight Control 00, I was sold on it. You had better aim inside 15 yards becouse it dosent spread much.

Beretta 1301 and #4 buck federal low recoil in the magazine. The sidesaddle has 00 Flight Control and 2 slugs.

I know we've been through this before on this forum, but I'll play in anyway:

I'm on several acres so I have less concern about neighbors. Plus I'll call 911 and let the Sheriff clear the house. I don't care about the stuff, I'm concerned about defense until the cavalry arrives: Older 870 Express 12ga with a 20" CYL deer barrel. Full stock with 2 3/4 00 buck or #4 buck in a carrier. I took off the 2 round extension so it is in deer gun configuration and not tacticool. It's also good for varmints and livestock protection.

Also have a M10 with +Ps handy- this is the S&W forum after all.

Mossy 500, Federal Flight Control.
Chambered shell and 1st follow-up shell are #4 Buck.
Remaining shells are #00 Buck.

Mindset for mixed loading is #4 should be enough to stop a threat without crazy over-penetration. If the threat remains after the second shot, then the threat must be serious enough to justify upping the shot.

Penetration is a major concern at home. Friendlys everywhere.

This topic recently came up in our family, consisting of me, one son who is professional military and one who is a LEO.

I keep a Mossberg Mariner modified with Knox System equipment, including box and drum magazines. Frankly, it's too heavy for me these days and I'm looking for something else.

Sooo, I advocated for a semi-auto. In my opinion both Beretta and Benelli semi-autos have proven themselves with competitors and the military.

I recently read a laudatory article about the EAA MKA 1919 Match semi-auto AR-like shotgun. I understand these have a checkered past, but the articles I find online now (ALWAYS trustworthy, of course!) seem to say those problems have been corrected. I really like the look of the gun and its operating features, not to mention its price, and think it might be my choice. ProMag makes 10-round magazines for it.

For ammo, there are now lighter self-defense loads that make sense to me. I live in a small city where the average lot is about 1/2 acre or so, so I think shot penetration is a low concern. Noise, on the other hand, IS a concern!

Old Springfield pump with 18 inch cylinder barrel, 2 3/4 inch ammo , #4 buck for across the room distance . 00 buck and a few slugs in a butt stock ammo carrier, just in case .
For the house a 20 gauge would do just as nicely, I had the old pump 12 , so it was pressed into service.

I live on about an acre lot myself, also with lots of trees.

My concern isn't so much about pellets leaving the house, but instead about penetrating walls into rooms inside my house where other people are. If you live alone it may not be a concern (unless maybe you have guests over), but I have other family members living here too.

18" Remington 870 for me. My friends scolded me for getting the 3 round tube instead of the 5. Since 1 should do the trick I don't spend too much time worrying about is. I had a Mossberg model 500 but I sold it to my brother in law. It was every bid a adequate as the Remington. There is a line of reasoning that advocates using light target loads for close range SD. I get the point but I'm not sure I agree. On the flip side, I hate the idea of 3" Magnums for SD. I use Remington "Managed Recoil" 00 Buck loads. 8 pellets instead of 9 and the velocity is throttled back to 1200 FPS. Those two factors tame the recoil pretty well.

Yes, but when bird hunting, your target is a heck of a lot further away than a burglar would be, and you're also more than likely using a longer barrel so you're probably not getting nearly as big a spread as an 18" barrel would give you at close range.

As far as the pistol grip goes, I've never had a problem in hitting anything at close range shooting from the hip with this weapon, especially since it's also equipped with a tactical flashlight. I also find that it makes the gun much more maneuverable in close quarters. And finally, with smaller sized shot the recoil is nowhere near what shooting buckshot out of it would be.

The latter is just a matter of taste and what you're able to accomplish with your weapon, I guess.

I keep a 20ga Remington 870 and use #3 buckshot.

I don't have a link, but years ago there was an in depth article in one of the gun rags where they tested various shotgun loads for penetration vs sheetrock. They came to the conclusion that #3 buck in 20ga and #4 buck in 12ga was the best compromise of lethality vs over-penetration.

Not that it won't penetrate two layers of sheetrock, but after four layers it was sufficiently degraded ballistically to be less than lethal. Even 6 or 8 shot is likely to penetrate sheetrock.

At very close range, like 10 feet, birdshot will work. At 50 feet it will be worthless.

I may just do some experimentation with those rounds, thanks for the suggestion!

Exactly my current line of thought, thank you.

Very interesting video Mister X, thanks for posting it. This guy makes a lot of good points.

The only two people in my house are my wife and I, in the same bed of course, and with that in mind my tactic would be to let the intruder come to me. After all, he's likely not familiar with the layout of my house, and that's to my advantage once he steps into my bedroom if I remain in a static position.

from box of truth
The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - The Box O' Truth

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want… to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing.

"Friendlys everywhere" is obviously an important point in my first post.

Several people have mentioned mixing rounds, with the heavy duty stuff further down the tube just in case. I like this idea, never thought of it before. Thanks to those with that suggestion! Again, some experimentation is in order on my end.

As an example scenario, consider a .357 magnum versus a .44 magnum. There's penetration, and then there's penetration!

I think finding a happy medium is the key. Eventually the line of overkill is bound to be crossed, and it's my opinion that can lead to a very bad situations... Like having a round zip through a bad guy, then through a wall, and wind up exactly where you don't want it to be.

Would you please let me know what these lighter SD loads might be? Thanks!

How many times? ;^)

Without reading everyone's comments I will ask this question:

Have you ever seen what 12 gauge 71/2 bird shot can do from 12 or 15 feet to sheet metal?

I tried that once whilst dove hunting on a collapsed barn with on wall standing. I blew a hole in the sheet metal between 6 and 10 inches we with scattered smaller holes creating a larger pattern.

That satisfied me that bird shot will suffice for home defense and I don't have to worry about buckshot reaching to my neighbor's homes.

End of the story for me. I just report these facts every time this issue comes up wherever I might be. Buckshot is overkill in your home IMHO.

That is correct; I have no argument with that statement. Why I am in a gunfight at 50 feet inside my home is problematic. I don't have any line of sight therein except MAYBE one and if I'm in the hallway and the perp is at the far end of the house one shot from the shotgun will tell him what's coming and the second shot will be from much closer range.

If I am in a gunfight outside of my house it's a whole other subject for a different thread.

I've killed a lot of land mammals with 1 1/8 oz #4 and #2 lead birdshot, #1 and BB steel, at close range. I've seen what kills outright and what wounds on animals to about 60 lbs. frequently, some years being busier than others. Will birdshot kill a man at 7 yards? To be perfectly honest, yes, it probably will do the trick. The problem is, it only takes a few factors before it goes from killing to pretty worthless, pretty quickly I might add. Every foot closer makes it far deadlier, and every inch further puts that whole affair in question. When life and death are on the line, would you want to trust your life to such a fickle load?

IF, and I don't recommend birdshot, IF you are going to shoot birdshot, run a 22inch barrel at least, and FULL choke only. The only other choice is extra full or turkey choke You are trying to make the birdshot hit as if it were a slug; spread is what you want to avoid at all costs. The cop shotgun, 18 inch barrel and mod to, absolutely the worst choice in the world for birdshot, cylinder bore, is the worst combination you could possibly choose. When you talk about the birdshot having extremely short terminal range for effectiveness, that extremely short range is made much worse by short barrels and open chokes. IF, and I don't support the choice, IF you choose birdshot, a 26 inch turkey choked shotgun is the choice you should stick too, rather than an off the rack 18 inch cylinder bore. Open up that pattern, and you could cut the effectiveness of that load from a short 10 yards to perhaps even a 5 yard, or even shorter.

Keep combat shotgun barrels to what they were intended for, which is slugs. They are open choked and short to maximize slug accuracy, to make them capable of 100 yard fighting if need be. They aren't great for patterning buckshot, and shorten the range of that as well, much less birdshot, which relies SOLELY on pattern to have any effect at all. IF you are going to use birdshot out of a short open choke barrel, choose one of the new fancy super close patterning wad loads, Flight Control, ect., that can actually give good tight patterns out of an open choke. Otherwise, you really are setting yourself up for a dangerous situation where you could spray someone with a load of little lead pellets and fail to slow them down or stop them.

It ends up with your situation, as has been stated numerous times. Some people live in crowded apartment complexes and worry about hitting their own loved ones or neighbors, and in such extreme cramped quarters, feel that birdshot would do anyway, and have considerations of collateral damage. Some are out in the country, and some inbetween. Birdshot should be considered a specialty round, for those who know themselves, the situations, the surroundings, and have made a very well informed decision. Otherwise, for most people's range and house, surroudnings, ect., buckshot is always preferred. Buckshot can easily be lethal up to and even past 100 yards, can punch deep through the torso of an attacker, and can get through limbs to the heart of the matter. It easily exceeds the ranges most self defense situations will incur, and has adequate penetration. Its effectiveness in real life scenarios proceeds it, for good reason. Also consider its over penetration and punch through of hard objects to be, sometimes, highly exaggerated.

The concept of #1 buck for close range defense certainly has many merits compared to 00. 00 is the usual choice of law enforcement and more universal because it extends the range of the load quite a bit, ensuring ability to punch through harder objects in law enforcement situations, as well as better penetration at longer ranges. But for Average Joe, in his house, #1 offers more than enough punch, and more pellets for shot weight, making it equal to perhaps superior. #4-2 buck will probably work well at these shorter ranges, but the increase in pellet count is probably not worth it.

Personally, I own several shotguns, and consider all of them to be useful. They have always been the go to on the farm to get rid of pests, so when I'm at home one is always handy. From a cheap Russian double barrel that has done a lot of the work, to a couple of 12 gauge pumps, I use full chokes, 26 inch barrels, and 2 3/4 cheap Rio magnum 00 buckshot. Not combat style shotguns, and not super ammo, but then again they are hunting shotguns I know inside and out, have used on clay and in the field enough to shoot it well in a real life scenario, and cheap practice ammo that will be no different than the rounds I've ran out of them for fun. Familiarity beats speciality. If you've shot hundreds of clay pidgeons, ducks, grouse, ect., you are already adept at quickly swinging that big ol long barrel gun in real life, so doing so in a real life defense situation will be more natural than a short barrel gun you may not practice the same way with.

I've been switching over to 10 bore now, and have a BPS 10 loaded with handload 15 pellet 00 buckshot that will pattern all 15 pellets into a center mass at 35 yards. Good for point blank, and still good enough for most situations.

That means nothing... My pellet gun can shoot through a sheet metal barn too, but that doesn't mean it is a good HD round.

Barn sheet metal isn't even 1/4" thick for the good stuff... Hardly compares to the penetration needed to reach internal organs to insure a stop.

Birdshot might work at across the room distance, but it might not. I don't have that same question when using buckshot.

My HD shotgun is a 686 Beretta with 28 in. barrels and 00 buck. I haven't ever lived in a house that the rooms are so small that I didn't have enough space to swing 28 in. barrels. Ejectors makes it quicker to reload. I can also hunt with it. Larry

If you are planning to be stationary with it, then that is fine... but try walking down the hallway and entering a room while moving the barrel to get on target at someone in the far corner on the same wall that the door is on...

If I wanted to defend my home from assailants, assuming I lived on a ranch or other large land parcel I'd definitely have a M1A, M-1 Garand or a S&W MP10...all of which have high cap mags and are chambered in 308.
For inside the home I like hand guns over shotguns...they're easier to maneuver in tight quarters, such as closets small rooms and stairwells.

I don't think you should look at buckshot, outside of point blank, as a totality of the payload as far as penetration goes.

It varies by load of course, but a typical load: #3 and #4 are pretty close in size, roughly .25 caliber, about 25gr. Muzzle velocity is 1200 fps. Looking at it as individual pellets, those are going to shed velocity quickly.

A .32 caliber black powder squirrel rifle throws a larger diameter, and heavier 45 gr round ball, at roughly the same velocity. I don't believe that has the reputation for excessive penetration.

Remington Model 870 12 Gauge 18" barrel loaded with #4 Buckshot.
At home defense range bird shot is as effective as buckshot

CraigG58:
One I have seen tested, and which I have here, is Federal Premium Personal Defense Ammunition, 12 Gauge 2-3/4", Reduced Recoil 00 Buckshot, 9 Pellets.
It doesn't feel a light softer until fired alternately with full-power shells. The BLAST, however, seems about the same to me.

I haven't tried this: Fiocchi: Our 12LE00BK offers 9 pellets of #00 nickel- plated buckshot. Fiocchi offers a choice of reduced recoil full bore slugs, a 1 ounce at 1150 fps (12LRSLUG) or a 7/8 ounce slug at 1300 fps. Our 7/8 ounce slug is often preferred by Tree Gun Competition shooters for its accuracy and fast trajectory.

USCCA likes Winchester’s AA Trap and Skeet. They say that loaded with approximately an ounce of #7 ½, #8 or #9 shot, patterns are tight. I haven't tried it.

Also rated is Remington’s Managed Recoil™ 8 pellet 00 load, another I haven't tried.

They also rated Remington’s HD Ultimate Home Defense, and I haven't tried it.

Another more general comment is to use 20 gage shells. I think that may be the way to go. One of our sons is professional military and his "truck gun" is a single barrel 16 gage. I don't remember what ammo he uses in it, but he has convinced me that at car-to-car distances it'll do very well.

Hope this helps.

But the bad guy did stop what he was doing when he was shot, so in my book it did the job.

__________________
John

After shooting deer with a 3" 00 buckshot load and finding the pellets on the opposite side underneath the skin, I'm comfortable with using 2 3/4 00 loads inside.
A person can wind up dead worrying about liabilities after the shot. The point is, is to survive the encounter.

I keep an 870 20 ga loaded with buckshot. 00, #1, #4, I don't care which. Either will do the job.

No birdshot here. And I disagree with a handgun over the shotgun. A shotgun is not a search and destroy tool. You let the bad guy come to you.

It doesn't hurt to have a plan also. Know where your shoot/no shoot zones are if any. Outside and down the hall from our bedroom is a rock fireplace. No lead going through there.

__________________
Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Trunk gun - HR Pardner Pump 12 gauge (6 + 1 capacity). Loaded with #7 shot bird shot.

HD gun - Maverick 88 Pump 12 gauge (7 +1 capacity). Loaded with #7 shot bird shot.

5 shell side saddles on both.

If you go to about the 5:30 mark in the vid below, they shoot birdshot into ballistics gel. The #8 penetrates 4" to 5", and the number 4 goes about 7"... both well short of the 13" recommended by the FBI.

If you watch the whole vid, you will see them shoot through some ribs into a piece of pork shoulder. While they seem to be impressed by the carnage, it truly shows that birdshot runs out of oomph at exactly the point that it needs to be able to penetrate internal organs. Otherwise it is just a nasty, shallow wound that may not stop an attack.

Think of it this way... if birdshot was a magical projectile that could incapacitate a bad guy reliably, yet not penetrate walls, wouldn't police departments use it?

I would not loop a short piece of rope around my neck and jump from a high place. I will not try to clear a building. Neither one is conducive to a long life. If someone is in my house I can get out or wait and let them find me. Larry

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, the part beginning at around 02:30 looks like a pretty nasty wound to me for a single shot, let alone if he used 5 rounds, which I doubt would be necessary to shut the target completely down. Plus, that's exactly what I'm after, as the shot does not penetrate the drywall behind it at all even though the meat extremely close to it is hammered.

As for the latter part of the video, I guess I must be missing something there as well. What are they getting at, shooting bad guys through walls? That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid.

You are totally misunderstanding. Where they shoot the meat, the shot is stopped in the meat... where it would fall short of being able to hit an internal organ.

When they shot the gelatin, the video shows that the bird shot penetrated 7" max... and that was using the #4 shot. FBI ballistics gel testing recommends a minimum of 13" penetration in the gel to reliably hit internal organs.

Basically, bird shot makes a shallow wound. While it looks nasty, it does not incapacitate an attacker reliably.

I'm not sure why birdshot v. buckshot for home defense is being debated. Birdshot is for birds and bird-sized animals. Buckshot is for bucks and buck-sized animals. There's a reason why they have those names.

If you're looking for a shotgun load that will reliably stop a human intruder but not penetrate an interior wall, well ... you may have to invent it, based on what I've seen in testing of frangible and other specialty loads. I don't think physics is on your side.

Regardless, you make your choices and you live with the results.

The tests have been done and documented.

Read on: shotgun shot size - The Box O' Truth