Recently I read a story about a couple returning home in their SUV with their two young children. When the husband got out he was confronted by a neighbors pit bull that had escaped the yard. As the pit bull charged, the husband got off a round from his ccw, striking the dog, which then ran around the man...and jumped into the open door of the vehicle! Fortunatelly, the wife was also carrying, and seeing her husband draw, she did as well. Good thing too, because as the pit jumped in she raised her J frame and fired, with the dogs mouth around the barrel. The dog fell in the drivers side floor well and lay there...breathing heavy. After a few seconds he then jumped back up, at which time the wife emptied her revolver, puting the dog down for good.

Locally we have had two cases (that I know of) over the last few months, where people have been attacked by four or more pit bulls. One, the brutal mauling death of a 4 yr old boy by four pits. You may have seen this story on the news. The other, a jogger who was attacked by 12 pit bulls, losing an eye, his left arm below the elbow, and both legs below the knee.
Studies show that there are approximatelly 250,000 pitbulls in the local area, and growing.

This got me to thinking about how I would fare against even ONE pit bull with either of my current edc's - a Model 60 and/or Bodyguard 380. And if there were MORE than one...well. Most likelly there would be no time for reloading before I was bitten or mauled. I'm giving serious thought to resuming carry of my glock 23 and a spare mag.

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Stay protected my friends.

Getting my popcorn ready.

On a serious note - I've started carrying mixed ammo in my autos and revolvers - DPX (for thugs) and Liberty Civil Defense (for thugs with body armor) every other round. I've been thinking about throwing in a few hard cast Buffalo Bore (for thugs with fur):

5-shot 357 mag revolvers:

DPX
Liberty
DPX
Liberty
Buffalo Bore

And in my autos something similar:

DPX
Liberty
DPX
Liberty
Buffalo Bore
Buffalo Bore
<REPEAT>

^This way if faced with an attacking Pit/Rot/T-Rex I'll just empty the mag into them.

250,000 Pitbulls and growing? Man that's unreal. I'd carry my 12 gauge Mossberg pump shotgun and Glock 21 as the sidearm with as many mags as I could put in my pockets. What area of Michigan are all these attacks happening?

My girlfriend's two (2) pitbulls attack me all the time. Last weekend I sat down on her couch and these two (2) monsters jumped up on my lap and tried to lick me to death. My face was sticky until I wiped it off with a wet paper towel. I saw my life flash before my eyes.

And here we go!

The child was killed in Detroit and the jogger was mauled in Sterling Heights ( I think).

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Stay protected my friends.

I've been chased by pit bulls more times than I can remember.

Situational awareness, quick thinking, and quick feet saved the day.

You could carry a hi cap 10mm and there would still be no guarantee that you would stop a dog.

We make concessions with whatever we choose to carry. Don't overthink things. Life is complicated enough.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

I walk three miles every day and besides my Shield 40 I carry a nightstick that puts out 800,000 volts...I have been attacked by several dogs over the years and not one of them has come close to me...as soon as I push the button and that loud crackling noise with the blue arc on the end goes off they stop dead in their tracks....when I push the button again they take off for home....one of the dogs was a pit bull and I got the same results...if they decide to come closer and I have to actually prod them chances are good it will kill them....best dog defense weapon I have ever bought....you can look it up on the web.....Street Wise Night Stick 800,000

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carpe diem
one day at a time

As someone who was attacked by a pit bull with nowhere to run in Woodville, Florida years ago and well before I carried a firearm, it was only because of someone's German Shepherd that leapt from the back of a station wagon and out an open front window that I didn't have a likely horrific experience. The stunning thing about that dog fight was the pit wouldn't stop fighting although it was losing badly. We called the Leon County Sheriff's Office. Shout out to my hero 'Yukon' the German Shepherd.

Anyway, Michigan cities that have banned pit bulls include Ecorse, Highland Park, Grosse Pointe Woods and Grosse Pointe Park in Wayne County and Waterford and Sylvan Lake in Oakland County, according to DogsBite.org, a nonprofit group that advocates nationally for pit bull bans. An additional 12 cities in Michigan have passed restrictions, ranging from banning pit bulls declared dangerous, to mandatory sterilization and tougher registration and monitoring of the dogs.

Nationally, about 700 cities have banned or restricted pit bull ownership. So far, 19 states have enacted such prohibitions since the 1980s. Now, there is a tendency not to ban specific breeds, but to have laws regarding vicious dogs in general. Some disagree and see a need to ban the breed: “They want us to ignore the heritage of the pit bull breed,” Lynn said, noting decades of them being bred for fighting. “Pit bulls show up disproportionately in fatalities because of the style of their bites — hold and shake — and once they’ve started an attack, it’s usually impossible to stop. Often it takes intervention of a firearm to stop it.

“Normal dogs bite and release. Pit bulls don’t do that. They hold on and won’t let go.”

What was said in Dune about power is the same for pitbulls, power does not corrupt it attracts the corrupt, and pitbulls are not bad dogs, but they have a nasty tendency to attract bad owners. There are good men who can handle power, and there are many good men with pitbulls, but its the fact that people who want dangerous dogs and abusive them to those ends tend to pick that breed overwhelmingly. They are chosen by bad masters for a bad purpose for their physical abilities, and it ends up with terrible consequences.

Out in the country, dogs are always a concern, because people will simply drop them off, and there are no animal control officers, just you. One time someone dropped off a dog close to the property, and when I went out one morning, it growled at me, but after chasing it through the yard with the 12 gauge it turned friendly and we adopted it out. Our neighbor is a psychopath who has dogs so mean he can't safely handle them and has to keep them caged up permanently (I don't know how good a guard dog is if its caged up to protect YOU) that could get loose and wander the long way over, and there have been a roving pack of domestic dogs in the somewhat local area that have been chasing deer, and in a pack could be unpredictable, means its an ever present consideration.

I suppose I am in a much better situation, because open carry of long guns out in the country, on your own property, is fine, and I always carry a 12 or 10 bore shotgun, or a hunting or battle rifle with me on my jaunts through the country, so I'm the hunter. But I still carry a large frame handgun for every day carry for universality. My 1911, or my 6 inch barrel M27, are not only capable defensive weapons against men, but also serve as more than enough for any animal in my region that could attack. I'm never undergunned by caliber, and that's not an accident.

As stated previously, its hard to change up one's entire carry style, weapon, caliber, and load for one specific threat. Yet, depending on your neck of the woods and life, perhaps its not. Maybe you live somewhere where a dog attack is far more likely, bad neighbors, neighborhood, ect. Better to understand and prepare for the threat than not, and another consideration for what is adequate.

Hold on; a QUARTER OF A MILLION pit bulls? Just in your local area? Are you sure you didn't accidentally put one (or two) extra zeros in there somewhere?

A few minutes worth of research puts the estimated total number of pit bulls in the US at less than 6 million. So for there to be 250,000 in your area you would have 1 of every 24 put bulls in the whole country in your local area. That seems a little far fetched.

Nevertheless, if you have a lot of them in your area, that would definitely be something to be concerned about.

I believe the quarter million figure if the area includes Detroit. Tough town.

When I lived in the ghetto, my favorite primary carry was an alloy framed Commander sized Kimber 1911 in .45 ACP. I imagine it would suffice for most things.

However what I actually used on animals was pepper spray. I do not know if Michigan still has the 2 percent law and size limits on OC, but when I lived there "bear spray" was sold.

I live in a suburb of Detroit & there aren't dogs running loose here but Detroit does have a problem as well as the highest population of pitbulls & also no ban on them. Anyway the ban that certain cities have is most likely going to be "banned" itself or not enforceable by the Senate under discrimination against breed. I know there are good pitbull pets/owners out there its just every time on the news "another pitbull attack".

Last year in my neck of the woods they had a serious problem over about two weeks with a modest size pack of feral pit bulls. Animal control and then S O managed to hunt them down and mostly captured them. I have had to personally shoot two pits bulls, both were solo attacks, one on my own property. The day of my second shooting a woman was mauled to death by a pit bull in a nearby city.

In addition to the cities that have outright bans, many homeowners associations have bans on pit bull in their community. I have a co-worker who lives in South Lyon, and they are NOT allowed there.

The study was done in Detroit, and yes, the figure is acurate - 250,000 (or 1 pit bull for every 3 residents!). The owner of the 12 pits that attacked the jogger was a 61 year old man...living with his mother for support! Common sense SHOULD tell someone that if they are living with mom they can't afford 12 dogs. While there are some responsible owners I believe the majority are not so, and that is the problem.

My point in posting this thread was not to help popcorn sales, but rather to express my thought that while I feel comfortable with my Chiefs Special or Bodyguard for defense against two-legged predators, I may not have enough capacity for the growing number of dog packs if attacked.

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Stay protected my friends.

This could not possibly be a bigger lie. I've seen all sorts of dogs bite and hold. How else could they play tug of war.

Enough with the breed-bashing.

Jimmy's experience with pit bulls (old story told before)
On duty outside my patrol unit was attacked by three (3) pit bulls.
Protection: Sig-Sauer P-229 .40 loaded with Speer 180 grain JHP.
Double taps to chest area with no effect except sound of gunfire turned the pit bulls.
Lesson learn: 12 gauge with slugs.

The lady who was quoted saying that was herself mauled by a pit bull in California, and she is the founder of dogsbite.org.

To compare a game of tug-of-war to breed specific attack behavior is a bit of a leap. So I would suggest looking at the readily available numbers instead.

Just this May, dogs.petbreeds.com posted a well-known recent study, notable for it's methodology and it's scale covering 32 years. Petbreeds re-published this report as they, "concluded that this report gave a sufficiently thoughtful and unbiased summary of dog attacks in the United States." And they included the reports specific methodology.

"Dog attack deaths and maimings, U.S. & Canada (1982-2014),” compiled by ANIMALS 24-7 is a 32 year study from readily available records that focused on the number of attacks doing bodily harm in the past 32 years, which includes fatalities, maimings (loss of limb or disfigurement) and other severe injuries that required hospital treatment. The study is easily Googled.

No.1 In Attacks doing bodily harm: 3,397, and deaths: 295 is the pit bull. The astounding thing about that compilation study is that not only did pit bulls account for the majority of deaths and injuries over all other breeds by a wide margin, the margin is so shockingly wide that pit bulls accounted for deaths and injuries over the next nine breeds in the top-ten list COMBINED, and even then by a great margin.

For example, even though considered vastly outnumbered by German Shepherds who are the second most popular dog breed in America, for deaths and attacks causing bodily injury, the Pit Bull has been involved in 2,000% more deaths and 3,000% more attacks causing bodily injury than the GS.

If those public records and their compilation are accurate, it's hard to see how it is breed bashing.

The only problem with that article is they don't actually know what a "Pit bull" is. The study goes off of what people say and lots of people assume it was a Pitt bull. Most people know the general look but that's like saying you saw a black semi auto handgun there for its a Glock.

I've posted pictures of it before but look up Dogo Argentino. Despite having a completely different (stereotypical) personality from a Pitt bull and being related to a Great Dane it still LOOKS like a Pitt bull.

OP, if I was worried about large animal attacks I'd carry enough gun and enough ammo. That's really the only specific answer I can give. I'm not a big fan of 380 and 38spl to begin with but if something like a 100 lbs angry dog is a concern I would carry something in 357 for revolver or 40/45/357sig. ....maybe 10mm.

I will not be bit.

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Isaiah 41:10

I could be biased because of my close call with an attack, but here's the thing. If the numbers were even somewhat close I would be willing to look at the well-worn breed misidentification factor prosecuted by defenders of the pit bull breed notably for decades, that was their big argument in the early 80's CDC study pointing it's statistical finger squarely at pit bulls for dog-caused human deaths.

But at some point when your attack and human death numbers are so astronomically high that they are when compared to other large more popular breeds in the multiplied thousandths of percentile higher, you've gotta stop the rhetoric and say, this breed is uniquely wired and needs and deserves unique management and control. Aggressive PR against the conclusions of municipality after municipality, State after State, and study after study does nothing to prevent the next attack.

Strayed a bit off topic, so that's my last post here. Peace.

Wasn't an original requirement for first the .45 Colt and then the .45 ACP that it be able to kill horses? A horse is bigger than a dog...

I personally knew two guys in the 90s who were set upon by dog packs, but in the woods. I have no opinion on pit bulls. I did not observe it as a problem where I was. However if you leave pit bull debates aside, the danger of feral dogs is real in many places.

A .45 auto may be the largest caliber that many people can shoot accurately and quickly.

Weren't the most deadly and dangerous breeds of the 70s and 80s Dobermans? Back then they were just pure evil. They instantly kill any person they see. What happened?

I agree more with the concept of violent or vicious dog, rather than naming a specific breed. I have good friends that own pit bulls that are friendly and loving dogs. It is not the fault of the breed, rather it is the fault of the owner and how they train dogs. Most criminals have dogs that they have trained to be vicious, doesn't matter what the breed is. I had one turned loose on me once after serving the owner with a court paper. He was angry that I had ignored his no trespassing and bad dog signs, gotten to his door and served him. As I was leaving he turned the dog out and said "get him". I drew down on the dog with my standard issue .45, told the owner I would kill the dog and arrest him for aggravated battery on an LEO. He called the dog back. Any breed can and is trained to be vicious.

Okay I said last post but I'll answer that.

The CDC did have a 19 year study involving both of those decades, but only involving one seventies year ('79) and they concluded that pit bulls were far and away the breed most responsible for dog attacks resulting in human deaths. There are are entire websites by pit bull 'enthusiasts' dedicated to debunking that study or debunking the pit bull's reputation like badrap.org.

Dogs or specific breeds are irrelevant. Most of us carry a sidearm for defense against anything that we (reasonably) believe could cause death or great bodily harm to ourselves or another.

I prefer to prioritize a gun's ability to be concealed much lower in the list than say, its effectivity or capacity. To conceal means only to obscure from view, it does not mean it must be completely invisible from any angle and with any bodily contortion. For me, I’ll carry what works and let others worry about what may be noticeable. I don’t have to answer questions from other citizens or the police for any lawful activity, and poorly concealing a handgun is a lawful activity, at least here in WA.

Carry more; worry less.

?????????????????

There for is spelled therefore and "Pitt bull" has only 1 t in it.

Auto correct doesn't always work they way you intend to write

I can't state with any authority on whether pit bulls are the most dangerous of the domesticated canines. Any dog can suddenly turn vicious, for numerous reasons. That said, here's a very recent article from my local paper:

Spirited Logan girl inspires others after tragic pit bull attack | Logan Hj | news.hjnews.com

As a camp host, during the Summer, I find it's just easiest to carry my Bodyguard .380. I have a hollow point (Hornady XTP or Golden Sabre) as my first round. I follow it up with Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defense and Xtreme Penetrator rounds. I constantly have to rebuke some guests to leash their dogs. So far, I haven't had any dire incidents but it's only a matter of time...

My two pit bulls do the exact same thing!!!!

It's not the breed, it's the owners. Let me explain. I rescued a bait dog, dog that was used for training other fighters. Within 6 months I could trust him 100%. Dogs take on the attitude and life of its owner. Just like it's not the guns fault, it's the person behind the trigger.

As with anything else in the world, a person can find articles, studies and statistics to support whatever view they wish to hold.

I would think that in a group dedicated to firearms, which are demonized for the actions of their owners, there'd be less breed-bias.

I suggest you seek out "American Pitbull Terrier" or "American Staffordshire Terrier" dogs and learn for yourself that these dogs are no different than any other dog on the face of the planet. "Pitbull" is a meaningless generic term applied to dogs that look a certain way by people who don't know any better.

I used to worry about pits, but then my Springer Spaniel tipped one over at the dog park and held it down. Pit waved his feet in the air wanting to play.
Be afraid of the feral dog pack. In a group frenzy, the best pet in the world can start chewing flesh.
Pits are strong, and were bred to fight-other dogs, not people. Think about it. You have a dog you fight and you have to handle it, be nice to not get chewed up, so breed for not attacking people.

My personal breed to fear is the St Bernard. 110 lb girl holding the collar of an angry 150 lb dog, telling me he doesn't bite and I am looking at the open jaws trying to get me.

Would these be the same people looking to take your guns, based on report after report?

With 250,000 attack Pitbulls, you should also rethink the family SUV.

That's the scary thought: What if the sound of gunfire doesn't deter them? The rounds were obviously not IMMEDIATE threat stoppers. A lot of damage could be done (to me) before they could be put down by rounds of fire.

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Stay protected my friends.

German Sheapards were the most popular breed when I was a child, followed by dobermans. People don't have dobermans anymore. Though we had neighbors with both I can't remember a single incident of someones dog escaping the yard or being allowed to "run free" in the streets, as is common today. People were more responsible back then.

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Stay protected my friends.

Lately, I've become more concerned about two legged animals.

That caused me to supplement (and eventually replace) my Smith 36-"no dash" with a Citadel 3.5 CS 3.5" M1911.

These days, eight rounds of 200gr. .45acp Speer Gold Dot or Hornady XTP seems like a better idea than five rounds of 158gr. .38 Special +P

As the owner of a Pit Bull mix, I'd have to say that any Pit Bull attack is more the fault of the owner rather than the dog. Raised with love and affection, a Pit Bull will return it with all his heart. There is no more loyal and affectionate breed extant. They were originally bred to protect children, and served in that capacity very well.

Left to be street dogs, or trained for fighting, they can be formidable.

Here in Phoenix, we have a leash law - dogs that run free will get their owners a heavy fine.

This is a picture of our dog Joe, who could not be any sweeter to us, family and friends. If you are introduced to him by us, he will be your friend for life, as he does not forget. By the same token, he's an excellent alarm dog, and I'm certain if we were threatened by a human, he'd go to bat for us.

The secret to a well-behaved Pit Bull is how the owner treats him. Just because a dog is a "pitty" doesn't make him bad. There are bad humans, too - and THAT's why I carry.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

When Pit Bulls are outlawed....only outlaws will have Pit Bulls....

Lad

Simple solution - K frame .32-20. Plenty of power, more accurate and less muzzle flip than a .38, and it's actually a RIFLE shell. Find a later one with the heat treated cylinder, and roll up some warm handloads with the Speer (?) Jacketed bullet.

Spirited Logan girl inspires others after tragic pit bull attack | Logan Hj | news.hjnews.com

Granted, we don't know all of the story - Just what the article portrays.

I also know that it's not just pitbulls but any canine can turn. My dog is as lovable as they come but I'm always cognizant that a random factor could make him snap.

1. Problem is, in this case, the studies tend to speak with one voice pointing their statistical finger at one breed. Interestingly, the resulting articles defending pit bulls have not as much disputed the numbers so much as they have tried to attribute the numbers to the actions of their owners. In other words, pit bull advocates have pushed back with a nature nurture argument - it's not in the dog's nature, it is rather, how they have been nurtured (see numerous examples of this argument on this thread). Others have argued back that the numbers are just too overwhelming not to have nature as part of the problem. The other way pit bull advocates have tried to push back is breed misidentification or generalization - too much is being lumped together as pit bulls. Again, others have written taking that in to scientific consideration, it is arguable that the numbers are just too overwhelming to change outcomes in any meaningful way.

2. The meaning of "bias" is broad including one, that bias is prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another; and, two, that the bias held is in some way unfair, to the group who is experiencing the prejudice and is being treated unfairly in some way(s). I would submit what's being discussed here is exactly the latter part of the definition. Is the breed a victim of unfair intolerance or does the breed deserve the unique concerns for safety some people want to apply to it?

3. In a study spanning 32 years, pit bulls are number 1 in attacks doing bodily harm at 3,397, and deaths at 295. The astounding thing about that compilation study is that not only did pit bulls account for the majority of deaths and injuries over all other breeds by a wide margin, the margin is so shockingly wide that pit bulls accounted for more deaths and injuries over the next nine breeds in the top-ten list COMBINED, and even then by a great margin. If those records and their compilation are accurate, it's hard to see how it is breed bashing. For additional detail on the study see post #19.

Yeah, I know, I was supposed to be done.

I've been around animals all my life. Dogs, cats, chickens, goats, horses, cows, a little bit of everything. I've learned to read them and usually have a good idea of their demeanor within a few seconds. The one exception is a bull which can go from completely docile to mowing you down and pounding you in the ground without warning.

As far as dogs go, I can quickly tell the difference between a biter and a BS'er. Most are just scared of you and bark, growl, and show teeth hoping you'll simply leave them alone. In a way they're saying "I'm scared and don't want a confrontation. Some are truly aggressive no matter the breed and will attack for no reason however a lot of dog attacks are brought on by the actions of the person that got attacked. Contrary to popular belief dogs simply do not see things the same way humans do. They don't think or act the same as people. When two strangers pass each other walking down the street they make eye contact and exchange a simple "Hey, how are you". Perfectly normal, at least where I'm from here in the south. Dogs see eye contact in a different way with a stranger and in most cases to them it is a sign of aggression or a challenge. Add that to the fact they can sense your state of emotion it can turn ugly real fast.

I've got 3 dogs, two of which were rescues. One of them had been abused with a really bad attitude and labeled aggressive. He would growl, bark and bite at most anyone but it wasn't aggression, it was a fear of people due to the abuse. Took about a 6 months to gain his trust and about a year to overcome his fear of people but now he is one of the most docile dogs I've ever seen. Dogs are really a product of their environment and most depends on the owners.

The biggest problem I have ever had with any dog is the dog's owner. This is where the real problem lies. Just like guns, there are a lot of irresponsible dog owners out there.

My little Boston Bull (on a leash) and I were walking in an El Paso neighborhood over 20 years ago, when a Saint Bernard attacked us. My little dog pulled out of his collar and ran off at a zillion miles per hour. The Saint Bernard backed off when I yelled some harsh words at him, and the thought of my poor little dog running in traffic really got to me. I raced home, and found him on our front porch, completely out of breath. He had run full tilt for a quarter of a mile. I think he knew he was no match for that giant dog, and I thanked God he knew the way back home.

Any breed on the loose is cause for extreme caution, but the tendency of some to "shoot on sight" when the dog is pitty strikes me as unwarranted unless the gun owner or another human is actually in danger. Dogs can be usually be cowed and neutralized by other means than shooting them to death.

By actual count, I've had 12 dogs in my life over the years, and each was raised to be gentle. That included one German Shepherd that I took the trouble to take to obedience school. Although I'm certain he would have given his life to protect me, he was raised to behave himself and respond to commands. Not one of my dogs was a whit of trouble or was aggressive with no provocation. Dogs raised to love and respect their masters and who are treated well generally turn out darn nice and trustworthy. I'm sure there are exceptions - same as with humans, who have the poorer track record by comparison. I've often said that I like most dogs more than most people!

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Unfortunately, none of us has any control whatsoever over how a total stranger does or does not control his dogs.

Neither do any of us have any duty to know "dog pyschology". We just have a duty not to abuse animals, either our own or someone else's.

If somebody allows his dogs to run loose uncontrolled, either on public thoroughfares or on the private property of others without permission, that doesn't impose on innocent third parties a duty to be bitten, or indeed to RISK being bitten.

It doesn't really matter whether it's a pit bull or a presa canario. I'm the one who's going to end up as a burden on society if I let somebody's large, aggressive dog destroy an arm or a leg rather than defend myself.

"Studies" are meaningless because ALL dog attacks are not reported and of those that are, they are not reported consistently and uniformly. Most of it is just regurgitated media reports.

I've conducted a life long study of dogs of all kinds, been bitten by a few and understand that there are an extremely few unsalvagable dogs. I am not suggesting that anybody has an obligation to suffer an actual savage dog attack. I am suggesting that my American Staffordshire Terrier is in more jeopardy from some uneducated, hysterical citizen overreacting to his exuberant personality than anything else.

Once again - go get some real world experience with these dogs before you decide the entire breed is some kind of menace to society.

Full Disclosure: About 20 years ago I hated all those "bully breeds". Now I can't get enough of them. I understand where you're coming from.

I HAVEN'T conducted a life long study of dogs of all kinds, and have no desire to.

What I DO desire to do is to be able to walk public streets and spaces without being bitten by someone's large, aggressive, unrestrained dog. At that point the breed is utterly irrelevant.

Keep your dog confined on your property, or on a leash, and it should be fine.

Why you feel some need to personalize this is beyond me.

In my neck of the woods, dogs are only required to be under voice command and anyone needlessly attacking such a dog is guilty of a crime.

In effect, a person has the same burden to show they were in fear for their life or great bodily harm whether drawing on a person or a dog.