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Old 01-18-2016, 01:17 AM
Scott in NCal Scott in NCal is offline
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In my years as a EMT in the suburbs of San Francisco I had responded to many shootings, usually gang stuff. What I saw has caused me to believe that 9mm hardball is a fine manstopper, and I know that thinking is out of style right now. I pretend no expertise in wound balistics, energy, velocity, FBI standards, self defense ect. Only what I saw and heard. Am I the only one that thinks that way ?
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Old 01-18-2016, 05:21 AM
robertrwalsh robertrwalsh is offline
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Pretty much. 9mm hardball has a lot of over penetration problems and will also ricochet much more than a good hollow point. Criminal users don't care. Honest citizens would. When the NYPD went to 9mm they first used 9mm ball AGAINST the strong objections of their technical people. First year that had three shoot-through injuries that I know of, wounding two cops and killing one citizen. They changed. Wound ballistics from hard ball are much inferior to a good hollow point as well.
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Old 01-18-2016, 07:45 AM
MichiganScott MichiganScott is offline
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I'd just as soon my self defense ammo stayed inside the target. Shoot throughs can cause more legal problems that you need.
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Old 01-18-2016, 09:33 AM
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Over penetration is problematic but 9mm ball ammunition has been stopping people for over 100 yrs
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Old 01-18-2016, 09:39 AM
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Well, you could say that about 22s. Question is, how reliably?
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Old 01-18-2016, 09:41 AM
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Well, you could say that about 22s. Question is, how reliably?
Ask Bobby Kennedy.
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Old 01-18-2016, 09:50 AM
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It will do the job, any hard object flying at 600+ miles an hour will do the job but there are better ways of doing it.

Aside from less chance of over penetration a quality HP creates larger temporary and permanent wound cavity, causes more damage and desrupts the central nervous system better.
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Old 01-18-2016, 09:54 AM
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As a citizen, not only do I have to shoot only when it's sanctioned by the law, I have to not shoot anybody BESIDES my assailant(s).

Having neither qualified immunity nor a bottomless pot of other people's money to pay off civil judgments and settlements for wrongful injury/death suits, it's manifestly in my interest to use ammunition more likely to stay inside its intended target.
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Old 01-18-2016, 09:59 AM
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Over-penetration is not a myth, and I doubt you would care until there was an adverse event caused by it. I was trained in the mentality that everything over the line was the enemy, so two for the price of one was a good thing. Not so in a "stop the threat" environment, when the extra is an innocent civilian.
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Old 01-18-2016, 10:13 AM
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Ball sucks,really sucks-when I was younger and any ammo I had was bought for me I got handed a lot of FMJ by my grandparents as it was cheap.

I've shot a whole lot of possums,woodchuck,and coons with it and I can't count how many I've had get away after I mag dumped into them,some with a .45 auto! even had a woodchuck take a round of FMJ .303 and keep trucking.

9mm is the worst I think,enough you question the sanity of using it after awhile,then you try some JHP and just go "woh"

About the only round I know of that doesn't do that is .223/5.56 with 55gr FMJ I've see it both go through things and sometimes it blows them apart,never really know what it's gonna do.

And as others have said a FMJ round doesn't stop in soft targets it just keeps going and whatever is beyond is gonna get a hole-NOT good in an urban environment.
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Old 01-18-2016, 10:26 AM
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About the only round I know of that doesn't do that is .223/5.56 with 55gr FMJ I've see it both go through things and sometimes it blows them apart,never really know what it's gonna do.
It's a function of a variety of factors which hopefully cause it to tumble INSIDE the target. The combination of the lightness of the bullet and the original rifling twist made that more likely within a certain range spectrum.

The same is true of most high velocity rifle cartridges. Back in the '80s, SIPRI, a left-wing "peace" organization in Sweden got on its high horse about M193 5.56x45mm ball. They claimed that since it tumbled inside the target, then fragmented at the cannelure, it was "cruel" and violated the Hague conventions. Dr. Marvin Fackler utterly humiliated them by showing that the supposedly "kind" Swedish 7.62x51mm ball did EXACTLY the same thing.

I wouldn't have a problem using ball in most military rifle calibers... of course I tend not to carry my AR15 or Commission '88 for self-defense. (Well, I actually DID once go for a Commission '91 Artillery Carbine in a self-defense situation, but that's another story...)
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Old 01-18-2016, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott in NCal View Post
In my years as a EMT in the suburbs of San Francisco I had responded to many shootings, usually gang stuff. What I saw has caused me to believe that 9mm hardball is a fine manstopper, and I know that thinking is out of style right now. I pretend no expertise in wound balistics, energy, velocity, FBI standards, self defense ect. Only what I saw and heard. Am I the only one that thinks that way ?
I'm on board with you. I would only suggest some meplat on your ball.

HP pistol ammo is marketing. It has efficacy for rifles because of much greater velocity.
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Old 01-18-2016, 11:53 AM
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I'd much rather have my bullet expand for more blood loss
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Old 01-18-2016, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott in NCal View Post
In my years as a EMT in the suburbs of San Francisco I had responded to many shootings, usually gang stuff. What I saw has caused me to believe that 9mm hardball is a fine manstopper, and I know that thinking is out of style right now. I pretend no expertise in wound balistics, energy, velocity, FBI standards, self defense ect. Only what I saw and heard. Am I the only one that thinks that way ?
How many folks didn't die quickly? How many went to hospital hours later? Etc etc so on and so forth
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Old 01-18-2016, 12:22 PM
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Great. Another caliber war.

I'll start the popcorn machine.
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Old 01-18-2016, 12:51 PM
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Beyond its increase in reliable feeding, the FMJ offers no advantage in self defense over hollow points, unless you are talking about gimmick rounds or HP's that radically over expand so much they could fail due to inability to get to vitals. Over penetration is a myth, but the sharp nosed 9mm FMJ's reputation for not damaging enough soft tissue sure isn't. If there is any bullet in common use in the common calibers with a poor profile for damage, it would be the FMJ 9mm.

Has it killed for 111 years? Yes. But so have falls. Criminals and police officers alike have fallen during chases, hit their heads, and died. Maybe I should carry around some banana peels, some Hot Wheels racing cars, or some marbles, too. Just run away and hope he trips on the mess I threw in front of him. By the logic that it can and has killed people, I'm good to go.

High quality modern hollow points don't always lead to immediate stoppages, so why degrade your abilities with a less effective choice? If you don't hit the central nervous system, or the super vitals like the heart and aorta, you'll end up with a very slow bleed that might take a long time to disable the attacker. More time than what you've got, perhaps. With more soft tissue damage, hits to the other vitals and lesser blood vessels will incapacitate much quicker. In a situation, I might add, when time is of the essence, and you don't have any of it.

As for rifle rounds and FMJ, it really is a tossup. 55 grain .223 has been known to do different things, tumble, fragment, and in some cases pass through, depending on initial velocity, target, ect. It has a penchant to "blow up" against hard and soft targets, and is one of the better FMJ rifle choices, if one has to make that choice. Certainly the best for urban situations, IF FMJ is required. Still no replacement for the soft point. The .30 NATO stuff is about the same, sometimes they tumble, sometimes they don't, it can stop men dead, yet it can fail in surprising ways. A good Corbon bonded soft point will beat its head in any day of the week. As for the concerns of over penetration, 7.62x51 can exceed the need easily, and missed shots can travel in a relatively straight line for a ways. A missed shot in a city could hit a man 800 yards away, and I doubt he'd be able to shake it off, if the terrain and angles are right.

In any case, Mr. Scott, I think the community will disagree with you. There is a difference between bullet that can kill, and bullet that reliably stops a man.
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Old 01-18-2016, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arik View Post
It will do the job, any hard object flying at 600+ miles an hour will do the job but there are better ways of doing it.

Aside from less chance of over penetration a quality HP creates larger temporary and permanent wound cavity, causes more damage and desrupts the central nervous system better.
I agree. With the choices available today there is just no good reason for carrying fmj ammo for self-defense.

I wonder what year(s) the OP was working that job. Wish he had said.
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Old 01-18-2016, 01:49 PM
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Over penetration is a myth, but the sharp nosed 9mm FMJ's reputation for not damaging enough soft tissue sure isn't.
It wasn't a "myth" to the people hit by FMJ through and throughs from the NYPD.
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Old 01-18-2016, 02:04 PM
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It wasn't a "myth" to the people hit by FMJ through and throughs from the NYPD.
6 out of 4,000 shots, two of which may have missed the perp and hit the bystander directly. 17% of NYPD shots hit the perp. 3,320 missed the perp entirely.

Over penetration, as experienced by NYPD, is a joke.
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Old 01-18-2016, 02:13 PM
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@cmort666

The first .223 I had was a Ruger M77 with 1/12 twist,would not shoot 62gr for **** but the fifty fives down it did real well with that one would occasionally do some weird stuff with the 55gr FMJ

The next one was a AR15 with 1/9 and it would blow possums up regularly with 55gr FMJ,it was pretty brutal on anything I pointed it at honestly.

Taught me as far as that cal goes if it runs with the FMJ right it is a nasty weapon to get tagged with.

Don't ask about HP...or even SP I've done things with the .223 that'd make one be very about.
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Old 01-18-2016, 02:47 PM
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Over penetration, as experienced by NYPD, is a joke.
Certainly a barrel of laughs for the victims...
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Old 01-18-2016, 03:54 PM
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Certainly a barrel of laughs for the victims...
Mr. Mort, do you not understand maths? Thousands of bullets don't even hit the suspect - miss entirely - yet the concern is over the few that hit and go through? It is nonsense.
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Old 01-18-2016, 04:01 PM
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Mr. Mort, do you not understand maths? Thousands of bullets don't even hit the suspect - miss entirely - yet the concern is over the few that hit and go through? It is nonsense.
  1. I don't get to miss and hit the wrong person either.
  2. Whether I miss entirely and hit somebody or get a through and through, unlike the NYPD, I have neither qualified immunity nor infinite amounts of other people's money with which to buy off the victims.
FMJs offer me NO advantage that merits the risk to an innocent person.
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Old 01-18-2016, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott in NCal View Post
In my years as a EMT in the suburbs of San Francisco I had responded to many shootings, usually gang stuff. What I saw has caused me to believe that 9mm hardball is a fine manstopper, and I know that thinking is out of style right now. I pretend no expertise in wound balistics, energy, velocity, FBI standards, self defense ect. Only what I saw and heard. Am I the only one that thinks that way ?
No you are not the only one that thinks that way but the arm
chair theorists, the what ifers and those who believe in magic
bullets are so loud that they drown out the more logical
thinkers. Those who seem to be near phobic about the "over
penetration" danger and resultant prosecution and
bankruptcy seem to think that behind every gangbanger there
is some little old lady clinging to his shirtails just waiting to
be hit by your overpenetrating bullets and sue you into
prison and financial ruin.
The 9mm is the most commonly used handgun and sub-
machine gun round in the world. 9mm FMJ acts like FMJ rifle
ammo in soft tissue and will almost always tumble. Combine
that with complete penetration and good bullet placement
and you will understand why the 9mm is a world standard.
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Old 01-18-2016, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmort666 View Post
  1. I don't get to miss and hit the wrong person either.
  2. Whether I miss entirely and hit somebody or get a through and through, unlike the NYPD, I have neither qualified immunity nor infinite amounts of other people's money with which to buy off the victims.
FMJs offer me NO advantage that merits the risk to an innocent person.
Mr. Mort, see post #18:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmort666 View Post
It wasn't a "myth" to the people hit by FMJ through and throughs from the NYPD.
OH, that was YOU who brought up NYPD. Now you don't want to talk about them, and change the subject.
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Old 01-18-2016, 08:44 PM
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Minimizing the real potential dangers of over penetration is your right, but even if removed from the conversation, hollow points are STILL the better option for self-defense ammunition because of the damage it produces vs fmj.

Now if you want to argue that there is no difference in the wound track produced by the two then I'll let you do that with someone else because I won't waste my time.
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