^^^^^^

I could not have said it better if I'd tried Cmort!

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Dave Brown
SWCA #3279

you know, cmort, i can't prove my point, but only because the govt hides the data.
i know for a fact that there are tons of ADs by cops who carry with one in the chamber.
thing is, you can't find out how many, or even how many cops shoot themselves in a given year.
if you don't like the israeli carry, i'm convinced a double action revolver is the only safe way to go, but, like i said, i can't find the data.

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susie

Anyone who carries with the chamber empty, should not carry at all because of their lack of confidence.

I don't base anything I do with a firearm on what cops do or don't do.

I don't have:

• qualified immunity
• the presumption of truthfulness
• a union lawyer
• a bottomless pot of other people's money

I know that the only person responsible for what I do is me, and nobody's going to make excuses... or pay for my misfeasance or malfeasance with a gun.

Hence, I bother to know:

• applicable law
• my firearm(s)
• basic elements of firearms safety.

This is the issue.

I am 100% pro-police, but I believe cops should be held to the same standards as everybody else (private citizens) and we (the taxpayers) should not be subsidizing this (unionization).

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an actual conservative

When the Israeli Defense Force was originally formed back in the 40s, they were armed with whatever weapons they, as a nation, could quickly acquire. This meant that their pistols were a mish-mash of different designs. Some single action, some double action, some with safeties, and some without. Many were not drop safe. Many did not have holsters.

They needed one simple method to train a large number of people, many of them inexperienced in the use of arms, regardless of what weapon they had. The result was to carry with the chamber empty and rack on the draw. This method:

1) works regardless of the gun's design (SA, DA, safety, no safety)
2) prevents a non-drop-safe gun from going off if dropped (a real possibility when you just stick it in your waistband because you don't have a holster)
3) avoids the possibility of someone not accustomed to a safety sticking a loaded, cocked, and unlocked single action into their waistband

It is important to note that this method IS A COMPROMISE.

There is no tactical advantage to be gained from carrying this way. In fact there is a tactical disadvantage, because it requires both hands. With a modern firearm, there is no safety advantage to be gained from carrying chamber empty, either. (One possible exception to this is someone trying to shoot you with your own gun, but if you are planning your carry method based on someone stealing your concealed gun from you before you can react, perhaps you should reconsider carrying a gun.)

If you need to use a gun in self defense, you're already behind the curve because:
A) You didn't see the situation coming in time to avoid it.
B) You weren't able to find and take an escape from the situation once it started.
C) You weren't able to control or de-escalate the situation before a gun became your only option.
D) You need a gun RIGHT NOW.
E) Your gun is still in its holster (because you don't draw before you need it, right?)

Why put yourself at a further disadvantage by having that holstered gun unloaded as well?

You are not a member of the IDF. You are not mandated to carry your gun in a less-than-optimal manner. Why would you choose to handicap yourself this way? Why would you carry in a manner that may require more hands than you'll have available? That takes more time to deploy? That precludes the ability to fire from retention? That requires putting the gun out there in a place that's bad for retention?

The Israelis don't carry chamber empty because it's tacti-cool. It was a compromise that gained a bit of needed safety at the cost of tactical advantage. Today, now that they have standardized, modern pistols, many Israelis (like SWAT and Special Forces units) do carry with a loaded chamber.


Just carry with one in the pipe, already.

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Retired Career Security Guard

Sig P938 carried cocked and locked
Glock 43 carried with one in the chamber no safety
CZ 75 Compact carried decocked double action no safety

I will say this. When I first was introduced to guns and started carrying, I carried on an empty chamber for a few months. With more range time and knowledge I gained the confidence to carry the gun loaded.

I depends entirely on the action of the gun and if it may contribute to an 'unwanted discharge'.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Luckily the poll allowed multiple answers.

Semiauto always chambered, if its on my person. If equipped with safety, I prefer to use it.

DA revolvers always fully loaded.

SA revolvers always empty under hammer. I have both old style and transfer bar SA's , so I standardize my manual of arms with empty under the hammer.

And unfortunately for police officers the most dangerous calls involve so-called family disturbances. Walking up to the home leaves them extremely vulnerable. Would you carry one in the chamber?

Huh ??? Are there any (non-Military) Police in the US that carry chamber empty with primary duty pistol ?

You can't find the data, because it's not there. If your supposition were correct, OSHA and workman's compensation insurance carriers would force police departments to carry with an empty chamber. Officers themselves would sue their employer for being forced to carry a firearm in an inherently dangerous condition. But it's not happening . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Not to mention, officers do get disciplined for such misconduct (either the empty chamber, or the ND). Seen it.

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NHI, 10-8.

S&W m40

For those who elect to carry an empty gun, here is what can and did happen recently in my town. From our local paper:

KINGMAN – Frank Dazzo must’ve had someone watching over him the day he was almost fatally stabbed by a Texas man on Mother’s Day.
The 44-year-old Frank and his father, Richard Dazzo, 65, are slowly recuperating after they were attacked by David Jay Juarez, 41, at their family business, Dazzo’s Chicago Style Eatery in Wikieup.
Richard has been back at work since the incident and took a few minutes of his day for an interview. Frank is at home recuperating from major lifesaving surgery.

Mother’s Day business took a violent turn when Juarez went haywire, grabbed a large kitchen knife, stabbed Frank in the neck and Richard in the arm.

Juarez then fled the restaurant, stole a maintenance truck from a nearby business and led Arizona Department of Public Safety troopers, Mohave County Sheriff’s deputies and Kingman Police on a high speed pursuit that ended on Andy Devine Avenue with the fatal shooting of Juarez.

Richard said the restaurant had been busy throughout the day when Juarez started acting strange.
“David was breaking out in a sweat and I told him to take a break and come back later,” Richard said. “(I think) he got mad at me because I told him to cool off.”
To Richard’s surprise, Juarez came back to the restaurant earlier than expected because he said his trailer was too hot. Richard brushed it off and continued working when Juarez grabbed a large kitchen knife and stabbed Frank – who had just returned from church – in the neck, hitting the jugular vein and immediately causing massive bleeding.


Richard was armed at the time with a pistol, but he didn’t have a round in the chamber.
“We carry guns out here,” he said. “After Frank was stabbed he said ‘Shoot the son of a *****, he stabbed me.’
“Then (Juarez) came running at me and stabbed me in the arm. I tried to cock the gun, but I had blood running everywhere. I pulled the trigger but the gun didn’t go off.”

After the stabbings, Juarez fled.

Wikieup stabbing victim says it’s a miracle son is alive | Kingman Daily Miner | Kingman, AZ

How about grip safety on a S&W Model 40?

A trigger safety on an Iver johnson hammerless from 1896? (brain freeze on Gaston's fanboys)

Webley Mark IV s specified by the Singapore police?

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	Model 40.jpg (122.0 KB, 8 views)
	Iver Johnson.jpg (61.1 KB, 10 views)
	WebleyMkIV4.jpg (28.0 KB, 9 views)

How about giving that clever old Norwegian, Iver Johnson, credit for coming up with the transfer bar system a century before Bill Ruger?

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	155273_e144ab902440ddfd4cd87bde5e0c1bee.JPG (188.9 KB, 12 views)
	ARG1_070.jpg (172.4 KB, 11 views)

Some of your really old single action revolvers would have a slot on the cylinder between each chamber. One could gently pull the hammer back and rotate the cylinder dropping the hammer with its intergal firing pin into said slot. Voila, a drop safe, fully loaded (pre tranfer bar) revolver.

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Certified Curmudgeon

I'm just sayin, someone who WAS in the Shin Bet or Mossad would likley say he was NOT in the Shin Bet or Mossad;-).

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Certified Curmudgeon