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Old 03-29-2016, 09:41 PM
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Default Question about CCW Safe self defense "insurance"

I am on the verge of purchasing CCW insurance, and I am trying to research what is out there. I had been focused on Second Call Defense, because of it's affiliation with the NRA, and the fact that that insurance not only covered financial judgments against you, if you are found liable, but they would cover psychological counseling for my children (most likely if a self defense shooting were to occur, there's a good chance that my children would be present since I am a custodial dad).

However, I have found that any incurred expenses would be reimbursed, not provided up front, according to information I have read here. In looking at coverage from a comparison chart on this forum, it appears as though CCW Safe provides the criminal defense without out of pocket expenses incurred by the client.

My questions are directed towards people who have made their choices.
1. Does Second Call Defense require their client to pay for their criminal and civil defenses up front, then reimburse those expenses?
2. Does CCW Safe actually provide criminal defense without the client paying for their defense up front?
3. Does CCW Safe provide legal support in civil liability cases, after the criminal case is resolved?
4. With CCW Safe, in the event a client is found inoccent of criminal charges, but found liable in civil litigation because of a defensive shooting, do they cover any civil judgment?

Being a single, disabled, custodial parent, I have to make the poignant decisions for not only my children's and my physical safety, but also for our financial future. At this point, I am anxious to hear about first hand experience as opposed to business advertising.

Thank you in advance for your constructive assistance!
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Old 03-31-2016, 05:08 AM
alwslate alwslate is offline
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Ok you asked for opinions and I will give mine and if you don't like it
please don't take offense, just ignore it. I can relate to some extent
as I am 70 with some real health issues. Being in this phase of my
life is new territory for me, as with everybody, and in general I have
learned that seniors are basically looked at as an easily tapped source
of income for many providers of various "needs". To be brief here I
think that "self defense insurance" belongs near the top of the list of
legal scams that have been thought up by those hungry to tap into
a financial resource.
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Old 03-31-2016, 08:06 AM
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OP, there are other companies out there as well (USCCA is an example), so unless you've already done so perhaps some comparisons on what each covers / does not cover (and how they handle the financial end) may help in your decision.
I don't have coverage thru one of those organizations, not saying it isn't something to consider I'm just not at that point yet.
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Old 03-31-2016, 08:10 AM
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Real insurance is not a scam. I can tell you from dealing with USCCA personally that they are not an ethical company. If you decide to sign on with them you will be getting "upsell" notices for new super premium or lifetime memberships all the time. I went with Second Call Defense. In this day and age it doesn't matter if you are right or wrong you are going to get sued. There are just too many lawyers trying to drum up business.
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Old 03-31-2016, 09:03 AM
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Default self defense insurance

Glad someone has asked this question, because I too am considering insurance. Would like more info from Badge130 on why USCCA is not reputable before I do any more research
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Old 03-31-2016, 09:18 AM
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I found the attached chart in one of the threads either here or on the 1911 Forum. I was leaning towards the Second Call Defense, until looking at the chart. It then sparked my curiosity, since it looked too neat.
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Old 03-31-2016, 10:06 AM
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If I were to buy this type of insurance, I would go here simply because of the reputation of the people involved. All are recognized as experts. Home
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Old 03-31-2016, 10:44 AM
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In my research, I found that there is insurance and there is legal coverage.
Not the same. The insurance I found was the reimburse type. Some of the legal representation ones were also.
CCWSafe is up front representation with no out of pocket expense. If you were legal to carry and they deem it a legit self defense, you're covered.
There is that caveat of determination by their board of lawyers as to being legitimate. Supposedly everything is covered/ supplied and comes to where you are at. I have their plan but no experience with the execution of it yet.
Others are pay out of your pocket and if you prevail in court, its reimbursed to you. They weren't for me.
I'm sure there's some scams running out there and you have to research them.
It could be a waste of money but the alternative of being bankrupted and trying to get represented from a jail cell is not attractive to me.
As always ....Buyer Beware!
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Old 03-31-2016, 11:14 AM
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I have Armed Citizens Legal Defense Fund. It provides up front money for attorney and money for your defense. It was I think 120.00 to join and costs 80 a year to keep, they never try to sell me anything else! I get regular emails from them telling me how the organization is doing as far as money they have and number of new members. It is supported by several gun writers and names you have heard. What is the best I don't know since I have never used any of these company's. But in this day and age when suers are every where I think it is common sense to have something.
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Old 03-31-2016, 12:55 PM
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Read all the fine print , seek interpretations for all statements not perfectly clear. Insurance companies always leave themselves a way out , they like your money and are loath to part with it.
I paid home owners insurance for 35 years , never made any claims, my house was damaged by hurricane Issac . Not flood damage but a falling tree. It did $4000.00 worth of damage . My claim was denied because the fine print had a special deductible clause for "Named Hurricanes ". $5000.00 deductible ! They slipped that one by me !
I never missed a payment in 35 years and yet they weaseled out and paid me nothing...the good hands people take care of themselves.
So read and understand that fine print and legal speak.

My opinion....insurance is a suckers bet and the deck is stacked hard in the insurance companies favor .
Gary

Last edited by gwpercle; 03-31-2016 at 04:37 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 03-31-2016, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
...the good hands people take care of themselves.
So read and understand that fine print and legal speak.

My opinion....insurance is a suckers bet and the deck is stacked hard in the insurance companies favor .
Gary
Sadly, I have been the victim of the good hands people. One of their insured crossed the line, hit me head on, nearly killed me. I died twice on the medivac. Because their policy holder had a stroke at some time after the accident, they tried to deny my claim by stating that the accident was the result of an act of God.
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Old 03-31-2016, 02:32 PM
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Can anyone provide even one case where one of these insurance companies has paid a claim?
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Old 03-31-2016, 04:45 PM
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Sadly, I have been the victim of the good hands people. One of their insured crossed the line, hit me head on, nearly killed me. I died twice on the medivac. Because their policy holder had a stroke at some time after the accident, they tried to deny my claim by stating that the accident was the result of an act of God.
I sincerely hope you nailed them good. The government requires you to carry insurance, it doesn't require them to pay a claim , that isn't right.
That type called no fault car insurance sounds good , (it's not available here ) but I guess they find ways to weasel out of that too .
Gary

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Old 03-31-2016, 04:49 PM
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Can anyone provide even one case where one of these insurance companies has paid a claim?
First hand , not I heard, from some one on the net type of thing but a first hand factual account.
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Old 03-31-2016, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k22fan View Post
Can anyone provide even one case where one of these insurance companies has paid a claim?
I'd be more interested to hear from someone who has made a claim . . .
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Old 04-01-2016, 12:03 AM
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Every time that these kinds of discussions come up they seem like the
"what ifs" carried to absurdity. Given the fact that the vast majority of
law abiding gun owners will never be involved in a SD shooting in their
life time and if they are and it's justified SD no charges will be filed.
If you shoot someone and it's not SD how is your insurance going to
protect you from the criminal charges from that? The odds against
being in a justified SD scenario and being charged somehow and your
insurance actually having to exonerate you would seem to add up to
somewhat greater than winning the Powerball jackpot. Money spent
on lottery tickets would seem to be a better investment than SD
insurance to me.
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Old 04-01-2016, 12:10 AM
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What I have is not insurance and I did not buy it from an insurance company. It is simply a fund that pays your legal fees up to a given amount for a self defense shooting.
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Old 04-01-2016, 12:41 AM
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I joined CCW Safe about 6 months ago. Just glanced at my file and it claims that if I have an incident they will have an attorney on the phone to me in minimum time, and if necessary, on the next plane to my location. Coverage extends to use of force incidents of civil, criminal, or administrative nature anywhere my possession of a firearm is legal. I also have bail bond coverage through them.

They have a website that purports to answer all your questions. Prior to signing up I had a long discussion with one of their people and concluded that it was worth the $140 per year.

I used to teach the NRA personal protection course. We had three different DAs in to talk to the class, and the upshot from all of them was that if you have an incident you WILL be incurring legal jeopardy and expenses, even you are a Good Guy. One in particular impressed me with his account of a crippled defendant who was involved in a transparently righteous defensive incident in a rural area--and, in his words, "hometowned"--convicted in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. Scary stuff.

I was involved in a number of lawsuits in my career; in each case the US Attorney's office (grudgingly, I thought) determined that I was acting within the scope of my duties and represented me. None of those cases ever went anywhere--but it is not a pleasant experience.

I got to looking at the CCW Safe outfit after scouting out my local options and being unimpressed. (I doubt I could afford Gerry Spence.)

I hope I never need to find out how good the coverage is in practice the way things are going.

Never say never.

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Old 04-01-2016, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrrifleman View Post
I am on the verge of purchasing CCW insurance, and I am trying to research what is out there. I had been focused on Second Call Defense, because of it's affiliation with the NRA, and the fact that that insurance not only covered financial judgments against you, if you are found liable, but they would cover psychological counseling for my children (most likely if a self defense shooting were to occur, there's a good chance that my children would be present since I am a custodial dad).

However, I have found that any incurred expenses would be reimbursed, not provided up front, according to information I have read here. In looking at coverage from a comparison chart on this forum, it appears as though CCW Safe provides the criminal defense without out of pocket expenses incurred by the client.

My questions are directed towards people who have made their choices.
1. Does Second Call Defense require their client to pay for their criminal and civil defenses up front, then reimburse those expenses?
2. Does CCW Safe actually provide criminal defense without the client paying for their defense up front?
3. Does CCW Safe provide legal support in civil liability cases, after the criminal case is resolved?
4. With CCW Safe, in the event a client is found inoccent of criminal charges, but found liable in civil litigation because of a defensive shooting, do they cover any civil judgment?

Being a single, disabled, custodial parent, I have to make the poignant decisions for not only my children's and my physical safety, but also for our financial future. At this point, I am anxious to hear about first hand experience as opposed to business advertising.

Thank you in advance for your constructive assistance!
I have CCW and they will represent you and provide bail up front and represent you in a civil proceeding. The judgement is your in the civil action.
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Old 04-01-2016, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
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Real insurance is not a scam. I can tell you from dealing with USCCA personally that they are not an ethical company. If you decide to sign on with them you will be getting "upsell" notices for new super premium or lifetime memberships all the time. I went with Second Call Defense. In this day and age it doesn't matter if you are right or wrong you are going to get sued. There are just too many lawyers trying to drum up business.
I agree USCCA is not the one I'd pick.. You pay everything up front... Not my choice.
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Old 04-01-2016, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrrifleman View Post
Sadly, I have been the victim of the good hands people. One of their insured crossed the line, hit me head on, nearly killed me. I died twice on the medivac. Because their policy holder had a stroke at some time after the accident, they tried to deny my claim by stating that the accident was the result of an act of God.
Good hands people....I agree I had them years ago. Their hands are in your pockets and they are a horrible company..
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Old 04-01-2016, 12:44 PM
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Waste of money. If you ever really NEED it, you're not going to want the kind of attorney they provide with your "coverage".
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Old 04-01-2016, 01:41 PM
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After doing more research I will not use CCWSafe. I have corresponded by email with them more than once and they won't simply tell me if they have a lawyer in my city, which would allow for a quick response if the situation should arise.
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Old 04-03-2016, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collects View Post
In every state of the USA, it is against public policy (meaning, illegal) for insurance companies to pay for most* intentional acts that cause damages (ie, crimes), because we, the people, do not want criminals to do their dirty work, then make an insurance company pay for the damages the criminals cause.

*Most. Many homeowners policies cover defamation (libel and slander), which are intentional torts (civil wrongs).

Thus, before an insurer may legally pay a claim on a self-defense policy, it must be determined that the insurer acted in legitimate self defense, and did not commit a crime.

Ohio has statute to the effect that, if one shoots an assailant in justified self defense, and it is so determined by the authorities at any of the times when it could be so determined, then the legitimate defender is statutorily immune from having to pay any damages to the attacker whom the defender was forced to shoot in self defense.
Since when??? Ohio the attackers family can sue out the wazoo
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Old 04-03-2016, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrrifleman View Post
Sadly, I have been the victim of the good hands people. One of their insured crossed the line, hit me head on, nearly killed me. I died twice on the medivac. Because their policy holder had a stroke at some time after the accident, they tried to deny my claim by stating that the accident was the result of an act of God.
Been down the same road with the same people, only not as painful as yours. In the 70's, they paid off the guy who did the same thing to me. He sued me, hoping to scare me off and attach some liability on my part. Rather than go to court, they gave him money and then refused to replace my car, offering a cash settlement of less than half the replacement cost. While that fight was ongoing, they dropped me for "non-payment of premium". I told them I was going out of the country, kept just the comprehensive, put my new car on jack stands in a garage while I was out of the country, and they mailed the premium notice to someone with my name but a different address. When I came home, no insurance. They refused to reinstate and had dinged my credit report. Welcome home from the good hands people.
I'm so sorry for what happened to you; it's a really bad deal.

BTW, thanks for bring up the issue of the insurance. It's been on and off the stove for me for a while now. The recent shooting of that poor Virginia State Trooper brought it back to the front burner. I've been in that bus terminal, in the coffee shop many times to pick up someone.
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Old 04-03-2016, 01:50 AM
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I checked into a few legal defense options and USCCA from what I read was IMO a poor choice. I went with Texas Law Shield which now is in many other states.
I pay around $140 a year and I pay nothing more for legal defense should I have a problem arise concerning my use of a gun. This legal team of lawyers specializes in gun law defense. This is not merely a legal retainer it is full legal representation should I need it.
Read what a plan covers and what it doesn't cover. People don't realize the minimum for legal defense could easily start at $25,000. If a person ends up in jail for arraignment they don't want to be wondering what law firm to call and how to come up with thousands of dollars they often don't have laying around. I make a phone call and an attorney specialized in gun law is by my side. I don't pay a dime more for him representing me.
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Old 04-03-2016, 09:06 AM
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home owners insurance, renters insurance, car, no fault, uninsured motorist, motorcycle passenger insurance ( not needed in ME but still sold), health, donut hole, catastrophic health, perscription, death, burial,veterinary (im not making that one up)........

insurance co. and their pals in the gov. will take every $.01 it can steal and then refuse to cover you any way they can, or in case of a disaster area have the tax payers pay so the insurance co. dont get hurt. just get prescribed a med thats not on the "covered" list. they have worked for years making us believe that we need to be insured in case of...LIFE.

you shoot someone and your done. stick a fork in ya. thankfully most of us will never have to find out.
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Old 04-03-2016, 04:43 PM
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The major differences between Insurance Companies and "Legal Defense Funds" is that insurance companies are regulated and reviewed by the State, must maintain sufficient financial reserves to pay their claims, and have their policies and premiums approved.

To the best of my knowledge Legal Defense Funds have no such requirements and I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of the $ they receive winds up in the pockets of the "owners".
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Old 04-03-2016, 07:24 PM
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Yeah, but a persistent offender gets to have a lot of hearings, at your expense, to determine that the statute described below applies, before somebody enters a summary judgment . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Collects View Post
Since 2008, when the statute, quoted below, was last amended.

In Ohio, justified self-defense shooters are statutorily immune from paying civil damages to the attacker.

Yes, a shooter shooting in justified self defense can be sued. But as soon as the shooter calls to the Court's attention that it was a justified self defense shooting (in a filing called a Motion For Summary Judgment), the Court should dismiss the attacker's claims, with prejudice (meaning, once and for all). The defender should win the civil litigation early on, due to this great statute.

"Ohio Statutes Title 23. COURTS - COMMON PLEAS Chapter 2307. CIVIL ACTIONS Current with legislation signed by the Governor and effective as of 2/14/2016 2307.60. Civil action for damages for criminal act

(A) (1) Anyone injured in person or property by a criminal act has, and may recover full damages in, a civil action unless specifically excepted by law, may recover the costs of maintaining the civil action and attorney's fees if authorized by any provision of the Rules of Civil Procedure or another section of the Revised Code or under the common law of this state, and may recover punitive or exemplary damages if authorized by section 2315.21 or another section of the Revised Code.

(2) A final judgment of a trial court that has not been reversed on appeal or otherwise set aside, nullified, or vacated, entered after a trial or upon a plea of guilty, but not upon a plea of no contest or the equivalent plea from another jurisdiction, that adjudges an offender guilty of an offense of violence punishable by death or imprisonment in excess of one year, when entered as evidence in any subsequent civil proceeding based on the criminal act, shall preclude the offender from denying in the subsequent civil proceeding any fact essential to sustaining that judgment, unless the offender can demonstrate that extraordinary circumstances prevented the offender from having a full and fair opportunity to litigate the issue in the criminal proceeding or other extraordinary circumstances justify affording the offender an opportunity to relitigate the issue. The offender may introduce evidence of the offender's pending appeal of the final judgment of the trial court, if applicable, and the court may consider that evidence in determining the liability of the offender.

(B) (1) As used in division (B) of this section: (a) "Tort action" means a civil action for damages for injury, death, or loss to person or property other than a civil action for damages for a breach of contract or another agreement between persons. "Tort action" includes, but is not limited to, a product liability claim, as defined in section 2307.71 of the Revised Code, and an asbestos claim, as defined in section 2307.91 of the Revised Code, an action for wrongful death under Chapter 2125. of the Revised Code, and an action based on derivative claims for relief. (b) "Residence" has the same meaning as in section 2901.05 of the Revised Code.

(2) Recovery on a claim for relief in a tort action is barred to any person or the person's legal representative if any of the following apply: (a) The person has been convicted of or has pleaded guilty to a felony, or to a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence, arising out of criminal conduct that was a proximate cause of the injury or loss for which relief is claimed in the tort action. (b) The person engaged in conduct that, if prosecuted, would constitute a felony, a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence, an attempt to commit a felony, or an attempt to commit a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence and that conduct was a proximate cause of the injury or loss for which relief is claimed in the tort action, regardless of whether the person has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to or has been charged with committing the felony, the misdemeanor, or the attempt to commit the felony or misdemeanor. (c) The person suffered the injury or loss for which relief is claimed in the tort action as a proximate result of the victim of conduct that, if prosecuted, would constitute a felony, a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence, an attempt to commit a felony, or an attempt to commit a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence acting against the person in self-defense, defense of another, or defense of the victim's residence, regardless of whether the person has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to or has been charged with committing the felony, the misdemeanor, or the attempt to commit the felony or misdemeanor. Division (B)(2)(c) of this section does not apply if the person who suffered the injury or loss, at the time of the victim's act of self-defense, defense of another, or defense of residence, was an innocent bystander who had no connection with the underlying conduct that prompted the victim's exercise of self-defense, defense of another, or defense of residence.

(3) Recovery against a victim of conduct that, if prosecuted, would constitute a felony, a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence, an attempt to commit a felony, or an attempt to commit a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence, on a claim for relief in a tort action is barred to any person or the person's legal representative if conduct the person engaged in against that victim was a proximate cause of the injury or loss for which relief is claimed in the tort action and that conduct, if prosecuted, would constitute a felony, a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence, an attempt to commit a felony, or an attempt to commit a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence, regardless of whether the person has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to or has been charged with committing the felony, the misdemeanor, or the attempt to commit the felony or misdemeanor.

(4) Divisions (B)(1) to (3) of this section do not apply to civil claims based upon alleged intentionally tortious conduct, alleged violations of the United States Constitution, or alleged violations of statutes of the United States pertaining to civil rights. For purposes of division (B)(4) of this section, a person's act of self-defense, defense of another, or defense of the person's residence does not constitute intentionally tortious conduct.

Cite as R.C. 2307.60 History. Effective Date: 06-28-2002; 04-07-2005; 2006 SB117 10-31-2007; 2008 SB184 09-09-2008"
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Old 04-03-2016, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collects View Post
Since 2008, when the statute, quoted below, was last amended.

In Ohio, justified self-defense shooters are statutorily immune from paying civil damages to the attacker.

Yes, a shooter shooting in justified self defense can be sued. But as soon as the shooter calls to the Court's attention that it was a justified self defense shooting (in a filing called a Motion For Summary Judgment), the Court should dismiss the attacker's claims, with prejudice (meaning, once and for all). The defender should win the civil litigation early on, due to this great statute.

"Ohio Statutes Title 23. COURTS - COMMON PLEAS Chapter 2307. CIVIL ACTIONS Current with legislation signed by the Governor and effective as of 2/14/2016 2307.60. Civil action for damages for criminal act

(A) (1) Anyone injured in person or property by a criminal act has, and may recover full damages in, a civil action unless specifically excepted by law, may recover the costs of maintaining the civil action and attorney's fees if authorized by any provision of the Rules of Civil Procedure or another section of the Revised Code or under the common law of this state, and may recover punitive or exemplary damages if authorized by section 2315.21 or another section of the Revised Code.

(2) A final judgment of a trial court that has not been reversed on appeal or otherwise set aside, nullified, or vacated, entered after a trial or upon a plea of guilty, but not upon a plea of no contest or the equivalent plea from another jurisdiction, that adjudges an offender guilty of an offense of violence punishable by death or imprisonment in excess of one year, when entered as evidence in any subsequent civil proceeding based on the criminal act, shall preclude the offender from denying in the subsequent civil proceeding any fact essential to sustaining that judgment, unless the offender can demonstrate that extraordinary circumstances prevented the offender from having a full and fair opportunity to litigate the issue in the criminal proceeding or other extraordinary circumstances justify affording the offender an opportunity to relitigate the issue. The offender may introduce evidence of the offender's pending appeal of the final judgment of the trial court, if applicable, and the court may consider that evidence in determining the liability of the offender.

(B) (1) As used in division (B) of this section: (a) "Tort action" means a civil action for damages for injury, death, or loss to person or property other than a civil action for damages for a breach of contract or another agreement between persons. "Tort action" includes, but is not limited to, a product liability claim, as defined in section 2307.71 of the Revised Code, and an asbestos claim, as defined in section 2307.91 of the Revised Code, an action for wrongful death under Chapter 2125. of the Revised Code, and an action based on derivative claims for relief. (b) "Residence" has the same meaning as in section 2901.05 of the Revised Code.

(2) Recovery on a claim for relief in a tort action is barred to any person or the person's legal representative if any of the following apply: (a) The person has been convicted of or has pleaded guilty to a felony, or to a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence, arising out of criminal conduct that was a proximate cause of the injury or loss for which relief is claimed in the tort action. (b) The person engaged in conduct that, if prosecuted, would constitute a felony, a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence, an attempt to commit a felony, or an attempt to commit a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence and that conduct was a proximate cause of the injury or loss for which relief is claimed in the tort action, regardless of whether the person has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to or has been charged with committing the felony, the misdemeanor, or the attempt to commit the felony or misdemeanor. (c) The person suffered the injury or loss for which relief is claimed in the tort action as a proximate result of the victim of conduct that, if prosecuted, would constitute a felony, a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence, an attempt to commit a felony, or an attempt to commit a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence acting against the person in self-defense, defense of another, or defense of the victim's residence, regardless of whether the person has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to or has been charged with committing the felony, the misdemeanor, or the attempt to commit the felony or misdemeanor. Division (B)(2)(c) of this section does not apply if the person who suffered the injury or loss, at the time of the victim's act of self-defense, defense of another, or defense of residence, was an innocent bystander who had no connection with the underlying conduct that prompted the victim's exercise of self-defense, defense of another, or defense of residence.

(3) Recovery against a victim of conduct that, if prosecuted, would constitute a felony, a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence, an attempt to commit a felony, or an attempt to commit a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence, on a claim for relief in a tort action is barred to any person or the person's legal representative if conduct the person engaged in against that victim was a proximate cause of the injury or loss for which relief is claimed in the tort action and that conduct, if prosecuted, would constitute a felony, a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence, an attempt to commit a felony, or an attempt to commit a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence, regardless of whether the person has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to or has been charged with committing the felony, the misdemeanor, or the attempt to commit the felony or misdemeanor.

(4) Divisions (B)(1) to (3) of this section do not apply to civil claims based upon alleged intentionally tortious conduct, alleged violations of the United States Constitution, or alleged violations of statutes of the United States pertaining to civil rights. For purposes of division (B)(4) of this section, a person's act of self-defense, defense of another, or defense of the person's residence does not constitute intentionally tortious conduct.

Cite as R.C. 2307.60 History. Effective Date: 06-28-2002; 04-07-2005; 2006 SB117 10-31-2007; 2008 SB184 09-09-2008"
What about the situation where the DA decides to not file charges? Isn't this a kind of limbo where there is no actual statement the shooting was justified?

Doesn't this leave the vicitim open for a civil suit then?
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Old 04-03-2016, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
Yeah, but a persistent offender gets to have a lot of hearings, at your expense, to determine that the statute described below applies, before somebody enters a summary judgment . . .
Untrue. Don't know where you got that idea/information.
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Old 04-03-2016, 07:56 PM
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Untrue. Don't know where you got that idea/information.
From watching a lot of court hearings . . . .
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Old 04-03-2016, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alwslate View Post
Ok you asked for opinions and I will give mine and if you don't like it
please don't take offense, just ignore it. I can relate to some extent
as I am 70 with some real health issues. Being in this phase of my
life is new territory for me, as with everybody, and in general I have
learned that seniors are basically looked at as an easily tapped source
of income for many providers of various "needs". To be brief here I
think that "self defense insurance" belongs near the top of the list of
legal scams that have been thought up by those hungry to tap into
a financial resource.
I have to say that I agree with this member in most ways. First, insurance companies are profit making enterprises and they reap tons of money. Their aim is to collect your money for premiums and limit the amount they pay out by denying claims. One company a lot of us have dealt with is CUNA. Anyone who has a credit union account and has any insurance on it has been insured by CUNA - Credit Union National Alliance. I have had to fight with them for my disability insurance that was on my house and my loan when I was forced to take a disability retirement. They are the worst company I've ever had to deal with outside of the worlds biggest insurance scammer which is "workman's comp". However they are pretty much like most other insurance companies.

We all have some kind of insurance. Automobile insurance is required in virtually all states and now proof of same is required to be carried and presented when contacted by police or renewing plates etc. Most of us have some sort of life insurance and now under the Federal Government, we all are required to have health insurance to meet certain minimums and it must be declared on your annual tax filing or a penalty paid.

I dislike insurance as it always seems to me to be beting against yourself. I am also 70. As a retired professional LEO and firearms instructor, armorer and shooter, I have never considered CCW or shooting insurance. I know enough about the judicial system that by the time the criminal case is resolved in my favor, assuming there is one, and the family of John Q. Criminal gets an attorney and begins to file a lawsuit, it will be years down the road to resolution. When all the appeals and court work are over, I'll be in my 80's. Then they will eventually find out that I own nothing. My spouse and my children own everything. They can't get blood out of a stone. With the prevailing attitude concerning CCW's and self defense changing in this country, it is highly likely the civil action wouldn't succeed anyway. I am not going to spend any money on another insurance policy.
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Old 04-03-2016, 07:58 PM
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Waste of money. If you ever really NEED it, you're not going to want the kind of attorney they provide with your "coverage".
Untrue. YOU select your attorney, preferably BEFORE anything happens so in your time of need it's just a phone call. I have already done this.
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Old 04-03-2016, 08:13 PM
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I read the fine print on one of the CCW insurance policies, and from what I could gather from all the legalese, the only thing they were going to do if you shot someone, was provide legal assistance to get your CCW back.

Their advertising talked it up that they would cover your legal expenses, but there was no mention in the actual contract terms of criminal or civil legal assistance beyond getting your CCW, CCP, or CPL back.

I wouldn't sign on to any of those plans without first having a real lawyer review the contract.
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Old 04-03-2016, 08:37 PM
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And now, it's anecdote time. (Sorry, as a mil retiree I get to bore you with war stories)

#1 Way back in the mid 80s VCRs were new and cool. A storefront opened up in Fairfield down the road from Travis AFB, and they would rent beta or VHS tapes of movies and such. Back then there wasn't free memberships, but you had to pay to become a 'member' first, and then you could rent videos. Several people I knew in the barracks paid $125 each for the coveted lifetime member status (as did hundreds of others) and then pay to rent their videos. BTW, there was only a lifetime membership. The only problem was everyone forgot to ask; "for whose lifetime" the membership was going to last. After six months or so the video store packed up their stuff in the middle of the night and moved out of the storefront. In all likelihood they opened back up in another town with another name and started the process all over again.

#2 We all know about those extended warranties they offer you whenever you buy an electronics product or appliance. The BX on base was no different; some company contracted with AAFES to sell their extended warranty in the BXs, and I bought one for a Sony CD player I had bought. The extended warranty for which I paid extended the factory warranty by two years, and the Sony ES series (high end) had a three year warranty. Four years into ownership it needed service. I tried calling the company but there was no working number. I went to the BX and the cards with the warranty details were still hanging in the electronics department near the stereos and TVs, but upon closer examination I realized the company name was different. The advertising card looked pretty much the same; same styling, font, and coloring, but the company was different. Great scam right? Sell a bunch of warranties over a few years, fold, reap the benefits of free money, and reopen under a new name and start all over again.

I don't mean to sound cynical, but after you've paid your money for one of these plans, how do you know they will still be there when you need them? Is it a household name company, like Allstate or The Hartford, or is it some no-name company that will collect the cash for a year or two, maybe pay out here and there even, but suddenly POOF they're gone, taking your cash with them?

Last edited by Mainsail; 04-03-2016 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 08-15-2016, 07:09 PM
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I belong to the citizens legal defense fund. It was I think 125.00 to join and 80 a year it renew. All they do is provide money up to I think 125000. You get your attorney andKilary they pay the bills including expert witnesses and private investigators . I have never used it and hope I never will but for that kind of money I will take a chance with it! It is recommended by some well known gun writers who admittedly could be doing it just for the money but the do have a reputation to keep. The BRA also recommends this plan.


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Old 08-15-2016, 07:10 PM
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That is NRA


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Old 08-16-2016, 08:36 AM
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So, the arguments against are you will probably never need it so why buy it.

Isn't that the same argument against carrying a concealed firearm? In all likelihood you won't need it so why carry at all?

If you have made the choice to carry which costs considerably more than any of these policies, perhaps the extra money is a good investment.

Just my two cents. I likely wouldn't have an opinion at all except the leading FL self defense attorney specializing in gun law recommends you have one of these policies if not a couple of them to cover the gaps.

I hope to never need this type of insurance but if I am going to carry a gun, and I am, I am going to have it.
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Old 08-16-2016, 11:40 AM
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Anybody on the federal side of the house have any knowledge or experience with FEDS?

The price doesn't seem unreasonable for what they offer in terms of indemnity and criminal representation but the wording stops short of your defending anyone who isn't yourself, a spouse or legal dependent. (So if you were to decide to intervene in defense of someone else you're on your own. At least that's how I read it.)

Quote:
Coverage

The FEDS LEOSA/CCW Personal Liability Insurance policy pays for legal defense and indemnification for civil suits resulting from a lawful act under LEOSA. The policy also provides criminal defense costs resulting from a criminal action involving a self-defense related incident and criminal defense against state charges of unlawful carriage of a firearm or federally legal ammunition when lawfully carrying under LEOSA or CCW.

FEDS offers:

Options of $100,000 and $250,000 limits of civil liability coverage for bodily injury or property damage caused by a lawful act under the LEOSA or CCW laws or an act of self-defense, including the defense of spouse and legal dependents.

$50,000 for criminal defense costs resulting from an alleged criminal action involving a self-defense (or spouse/legal dependent defense) related incident.

$25,000 for criminal defense against state charges of unlawful carriage of a firearm or federally legal ammunition when lawfully carrying under LEOSA or a CCW.

Limits of Liability & Annual Premium

$250,000/$50,000/$25,000 for $400 + SL tax
$100,000/$50,000/$25,000 for $300 + SL tax
They appear to have a relationship and endorsement from FLEOA, a federal law enforcement association which I belonged to throughout my career until I retired.
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Old 08-16-2016, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
Read all the fine print , seek interpretations for all statements not perfectly clear. Insurance companies always leave themselves a way out , they like your money and are loath to part with it.
I paid home owners insurance for 35 years , never made any claims, my house was damaged by hurricane Issac . Not flood damage but a falling tree. It did $4000.00 worth of damage . My claim was denied because the fine print had a special deductible clause for "Named Hurricanes ". $5000.00 deductible ! They slipped that one by me !
I never missed a payment in 35 years and yet they weaseled out and paid me nothing...the good hands people take care of themselves.
So read and understand that fine print and legal speak.

My opinion....insurance is a suckers bet and the deck is stacked hard in the insurance companies favor .
Gary
Not only did you get bent, if you get decide to ditch your current company and get quotes, this "claim" will show on your record and all prospective companies can see it. It doesn't matter whether you received any money for the claim or not, it goes into a database. Insurance and sign installation is what I'm going into in my next life. Nothing against sign installers, they just seem to have an endless supply of work!

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Old 08-16-2016, 12:25 PM
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I just called FEDS and found out that protecting innocents or assisting law enforcement is covered under the LEOSA statutes so they are covered.

Further, they use the law firm of Schertler & Onorato, a top rated D.C. law firm, to represent their clients rather than farming the cases out.

This appears to be my best option. Of course, everyone's mileage may vary.

ETA:

I enrolled. Now I've got a little more peace of mind. Glad that's done.
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Old 08-16-2016, 01:15 PM
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In defense of others is interesting right. I would think if another is in danger, might I not be next? So if I'm proactive in taking out the subject, while he/she is victimizing someone else, and perhaps me next, am I not still covered??? I don't expect an answer, here of course. It's just for one to ponder.

I'm not against insurance and will be giving it some thought. When I took a home defense class a police LT explained that for a righteous shoot, with the wrong DA, you could spend $75,000 without blinking an eye. I have found a great insurance company for my guns, now I guess I should insure my rights as well. Ugh...
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Old 08-18-2016, 12:15 AM
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Waste of money.
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Old 08-18-2016, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by RSanch111 View Post
Waste of money.
Peace of mind.

(You hope you never need it and are happy to have it if you do.)
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Old 08-18-2016, 08:19 AM
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I'd like to hear from somebody who has made a claim . . .
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  #47  
Old 08-18-2016, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
I'd like to hear from somebody who has made a claim . . .
I hear ya, MM.

Not the same thing but let me provide a quasi-related anecdote.

Years ago, FLEOA, the same professional organization for federal law enforcement that now endorses the FEDS PLI insurance, brought a law suit against the government for failing to pay its special agents and LEOs what they were due under its own Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA). I and many others were victims of this behavior.

To join the lawsuit one had to provide some info with a payment of $25. I figured it was less than I spent in the local watering hole on a Friday night with the boys so I sent it in. My partner didn't.

Many years later, I had even forgot about the darn thing, I got a letter stating I was going to begin receiving compensation. What I got back for my $25 fee was several thousand dollars.

My partner got nothing as he wasn't enrolled as a party to the suit.

I look at this LEOSA PLI the same way. If I never use it it's water under the bridge. In my case $400.

If I do need it, that $400 provides me with the legal services of a well respected firm, up to $50,000 in criminal defense costs and $250,000 in court costs and civil liability judgments.

If I ever have to avail myself of those services that'll be the best $400 I ever spent.

I've done my due diligence as far as my own limited researching ability has allowed and this particular PLI policy seems reasonable in its scope and fair at its price. I hope I never find out if I was right or wrong.

YMMV, of course.
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Last edited by blues7; 08-18-2016 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 08-18-2016, 09:54 AM
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I'm going to suggest a different approach and what is I think a better and more cost effective option.

Ask around and find a good criminal defense attorney in your area who is well versed with self defense law and the use of deadly force by armed citizens. Then meet with that attorney and pay a retainer up front to ensure his services in the event you ever need them.

Unless you look or act shady, he or she is going to view it as a very low probability that you'll ever have need for those services, so the retainer should be pretty small - on the order of $100-$150. On top of the $100-$150 or so you'll pay for the legal consult, you're only going to be out $250-$300 in up front costs.

How does this save you money? Three ways:

1) During this initial meeting your prospective attorney will tell you exactly what to do if you are ever involved in a shoot, and he or she may review the use of deadly force with you. Having that legal advice in advance makes your attorney's job a lot easier and it will often prevent your prosecution.

2) After a shoot, since you followed that advice, didn't talk your head off at the scene and waited for your attorney to arrive, your case will be much less complicated and much easier to defend, which will save you a lot of money you would have otherwise paid in legal fees.

3) instead of paying $150 a year for insurance you'll probably never need, and if needed you may not even benefit from, just bank the money in a savings account. In ten years you'll have $1,500 plus interest that is on tap for legal fees, etc if needed. In 20 years it'll be $3,000 plus interest, and if you never need it, it's still money in the bank.
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  #49  
Old 08-18-2016, 10:13 AM
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An umbrella policy might cover a self-defense shooting.

If, God forbid, one is in a self-defense shooting, an axiom is if you win the (any) criminal case, you'll win the civil case.

I'd rather save money for the best criminal and civil attorneys. And I'd avoid prepaid legal insurance. You won't get the best because the best do not participate in such policies.
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Old 08-18-2016, 10:21 AM
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BB57, considering that most LEOSA cases cost in the area of $10,000, (from a legal source I read online), you'll only have to hope you don't have a problem for 66.66 years.

Yes, I know I'm being facetious but realistically $10,000 is going to be on the lower end of the spectrum and while saving money is always good, if you need coverage "now" you're going to regret not having the PLI for not much more of an out of pocket cost than the $150 you were earmarking. (There are policies out there that are in that price range.)

BTW, someone in a post above asked about the financial health of the companies underwriting some of these policies and wondered if they'd be around when you need them...

...I checked before enrolling and the insurance company behind the policy I elected has the highest rating. (I'm still not a big fan of insurance companies by any means but I'm not about to drop my homeowner's policy either.)
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Last edited by blues7; 08-18-2016 at 10:29 AM.
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