Open vs. concealed carry is one of the perennial threads that refuses to go away, here and in other forums. While I take no position here, I thought I'd share an interesting quote I stumbled across in the book, "The Year Of Fear," by Joe Urschel.

During a police search of an automobile in the early 1930s, an unmailed letter written by ganster, Pretty Boy Floyd, to fellow gangster, Harvey Bailey, was found and read. Here's a portion of that letter:
" I don't carry guns around with me to impress anyone. I carry them as a dire necessity. When the time comes, I'm always positive of my capability to use them. I am not boasting I am too tough to die. I know someday I am going to lose but when that time comes, I will not throw up my hands and rely on brains to get me out."

I might add that the book is a great read dealing with gangsters of the Southwest and the kidnapping epidemic starting with baby Lindbergh. At the time, what was to become the FBI was still in its infancy and federal agents were not authorized to carry guns, nor did they get along with local police.

Yeah, them criminals types did like their concealed carry for sure. And still do.





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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

It's my belief that they do protection, not investigation. Such as the witness protection program, guard the president and Capital Hill Security.

Good grief . . . The Secret Service guards the President and investigates counterfeiting and other monetary fraud, the Capitol Police guard the Capitol, and Marshals do investigations. Marshals are primarily responsible for the protection of the federal court system, including judges, and they provide detention and transportation for federal prisoners before they arrive at federal prison, and during transfers. The Marshals actually do run a "ConAir," although the aircraft looks nothing like the movie. More often than not, it's a bus or big van. They investigate threats to the Court and court officers, escaped prisoners, and they do supervise the witness protection program, although that is often a multi-agency endeavor. They are responsible for managing and disposing of property seized by other federal agencies during investigations, and they have several times been in the position to run strip clubs and other similar endeavors until they were sold or otherwise disposed of. They don't give a snot about what commercial truck owner didn't pay his loan . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

In a nutshell, used to be that law enforcement agencies under the Department of Justice investigated crimes against the person while agencies under the U.S. Treasury Department investigated crimes against the revenue.

Of course, all this is now changed. There are many more federal enforcement agencies and they were realigned to afford better interagency communication. You'll call, one of the things coming out of the 9-11 investigations was that several agencies each possessed a "dot" but nobody could connect them because they didn't know of the other dots.

US Marshals have been around since 1789. Their primary role is serving the federal courts, but the US Attorney General can assign them other tasks.

The Bureau of Investigation was created in 1908, which eventually became the FBI in 1935, I believe.

I can't remember exactly when, but I believe before the latter half of the 20th century most federal investigators didn't have the ability to carry guns or make arrests. For example, revenuers would go after bootleggers, but they had Deputy US Marshals accompanying them to make the actual arrests. I believe that other times they could be deputized by the US Marshal and become "Special Deputy US Marshals" to get arrest authority. IIRC, this actually happened at the US Winter Olympics in 2002 when some of the federal LE personnel were sworn in as Special Deputy US Marshals so they could help with security.

18 USC 3052, in 1948, authorized the FBI to carry firearms and make arrests . . . A very common misconception is that only federal officers can make arrests for federal crimes. Actually the opposite is true. Federal officers can ONLY make arrests for federal crimes. Local PD officers can arrest for local, county, state, and federal offenses . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

It was widely believed that Floyd took part in the Kansas City Massacre in June of 1933 in which a federal agent (along with other LEOs) were killed, but Floyd denied being there. It's said he sent a postcard to the KC police, denying his part in the killings. The massacre is historically regarded as the impetus used by J. Edgar Hoover to get approval to arm his agents.

His denials really didn't help him much, because he was killed by federal agents a year later. Melvin Purvis took part in the raid, but as far as I know, it isn't known who actually killed Floyd. Some accounts give Chester Smith the credit. It's also been rumored that Floyd was basically murdered by agents after being gravely wounded and laying on the ground in that cornfield.

Charles Floyd, by the way, really was "pretty", possessed of matinee idol good looks as shown in the photo with his wife, Ruth. He did not look quite as good, though, in July of 1934, while laying on the slab at the Sturgis Funeral Home in East Liverpool, Ohio.

We look at Depression era gangsters in a somewhat different light today, giving them sort of a glow, and even back then, a lot of ordinary people saw them as good guys forced into a life of crime by the economic times. Especially the folks in eastern Oklahoma. Sort of like Jesse James and his cohorts. The truth is, though, they were just common hoodlums and thugs, petty criminals who graduated to a higher level of crime. Seriously, if you walk into a store or a bank armed with Thompsons and BARs, there wasn't a police department in the midwestern states that could've stood against you.

Charles Floyd was an Oklahoma boy who went down the wrong path and died at the age of thirty, a young man just one year out of his twenties.

Accounts of his funeral say over 20,000 people attended his funeral.

Floyd had a son, Charles Dempsey Floyd, born in 1924. He passed away in 1999.

I've been fascinated by the Depression era gangsters ever since I was a teenager, and wrote several papers on them in high school and college (if we'd only had the Internet in '63!)...but I reckon that's enough of my history lesson for today.

Charles "Pretty Boy" Floyd and his wife, Ruth.


Charles Floyd in his coffin


Floyd being fingerprinted, post mortem at Sturgis Funeral Home


Floyd's funeral - October 28, 1934 - Akins, Oklahoma
Thought to be the largest funeral ever held in
Oklahoma.

IIRC the US Marshall's were the primary law enforcement arm of the Fed. Courts in the US Territories.... in the 1800s.....

And today . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

US Marshals also do a lot or joint task forces with local law enforcement.Mainly fugitive task force .I have four them easier to work with and more willing to share info with local law enforcement than FBI.

18 USC 3052 is the authority for Special Agents of the FBI to carry firearms and make arrests, however FBI agents received statutory authority carry authority first on 1934 via the Weyburn Bill, which was part of the Crime Control Acts of 1934. These series of acts also greatly expanded the number of federal crimes most notably bank robbery and assault on federal officers. However, agents routinely carried firearms, to include Bureau owned firearms, almost from inception.

State and Local officers can arrest for most criminal federal offenses, if their empowering authority (state law, state constitution, etc.) allows them to do so. Not all states are interpreted as having the authority to arrest for federal offenses. As a practical matter, state or local officers are rarely able to exercise this authority since the mere act of filing of complaint requires the approval of an "attorney for the government", i.e. an AUSA, a SAUSA or DoJ trial attorney.

While it is true that the federal government can only grant federal officers the authority to enforce federal law (outside of special, territorial and maritime jurisdictions), most states by statue grant at least some federal officers state authority under state law. It widely varies by jurisdiction, as does its practical use by federal officers.

.........his Mom and Dad is another headstone. That one is engraved with a Sherriff's badge. It is the headstone of E. W. Floyd Charlie's brother. He served as Sheriff of Sequoyah County, Oklahoma from 1950-53 and again from 1955-70.

Interesting history there in that dusty little cemetery in Akins, Oklahoma.


http://sequoyahcountysheriff.org/ima...ffs/floyd1.jpg

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LEX ET ORDO

A stunning historical revelation...

The US Marshal Service is the oldest federal law enforcement agency. This may have been mentioned before. We have a deputy marshal on the local fugitive task force, which also has a local police officer, deputy sheriff, and corrections officer. They hunt down wanted persons. They do a very good job of catching them, too.

Wait, what does that letter have to do with open or concealed carry?

Yea Boy!!!

Anyone that would pack something like this....ought to ashamed and hide it under his coat.




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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Another fascinating book on the crime wave of 1933-34 and the rise of the FBI is Public Enemies, by Bryan Burrough. Burrough used countless thousands of pages of interviews and FBI agents' field notes (recently released at the time) to produce an astonishingly detailed account of the doings of Floyd, the Karpis-Barker gang, Bonnie and Clyde, Dillinger, and others. Really engrossing reading.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Well, if you really want to nitpick, the original post really doesn't have much, if anything, to do with open/concealed carry...but in spite of that, this has turned into a pretty interesting thread anyway.

Well, we all remember the 1934 Act that prohibited the ownership of certain firearms and
their overall lengths and barrel configurations to the general public,
without a tax stamp from the Treasury Department.

If a shotgun or rifle was cut to a length that might be easily concealed by a criminal,
it needs that special tax stamp to be righteous.

Criminals don't conceal their armament to be polite to the public, they concealing their arms to
gained the element of surprise before their hapless victims.

Hence, the part in the above letter about not to impress....(Also I believe the quoted passage from
the supposed letter to be somewhat more articulate than that penned by a common criminal.)
This may need to be taken with a grain of salt,


On the other hand, the law abiding can wear what ever arms suit his fancy.

Without fear of ridicule or being shunned by his fellow man.
(except on this forum by the CC's the only way to go crowd)

So, I don't feel the overwhelming desire to CC all the time or OC also being another lawful act.

I think I'll carry this one today...Happy Fourth of July.




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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Just curious...who made that buckle and keepers? And I guess there's a tip to match? Is that Vogt?

Geez, that's really to sad, isn't it. To many folks forget the old rule, "ya live by the sword, you die by the sword."

You may be ashamed of yours but if Sarge Grips could make me a fore grip to match the other grips I think it would make a one of a kind Bar-B-Q gun. A good leather bender should be able to cobble up a holster. Larry

Larry,

Don't be fooled. The gun that Dave posted is VERY special indeed. You can google Lebman Auto pistol and find loads of info. They were built for the army trials (not adopted) and some sold into private hands over the years.

And to think, they were built right here in San Antonio,TX in a little saddle shop right downtown.

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On the Oak Savannah

M1911s used to be converted to fully automatic all the time. People still do it accidentally with great frequency. The cyclic rate is very high, and the weapon is nigh-uncontrollable. I think I read somewhere that it's in the neighborhood of 1000-1200 rpm. So just a little bit south of an MG42.

Boy, this thread has gone in dizzying circles. So, yesterday, my friend handed me his ugly Glock 19 affixed to a 50 round drum. Another toy; we all have them! Heck, I picked up another Walther P-22 over the weekend just because the price was right and I could.

Concealed carry? I'm always concealed, except the other day, in the heat, when I tossed my vest into the car and drove open carry. Nobody was going to see that, anyway!

"I don't carry guns around with me to impress anyone. I carry them as a dire necessity."

Absolutely well put and should be the mindset of anyone who carries a gun.

"When the time comes, I'm always positive of my capability to use them. "

That's true, too - we all should be capable.

Just because PBF was a thug doesn't mean he didn't have any brains whatsoever!

I agree, whether one is carrying openly or concealed. I asked and the OP has declined to answer why the letter was associated with open carry, as though we carry openly because we desire to impress anyone. I suppose one could also make the statement that those who prefer concealed carry have a secret wish that someone would try to rob them so they could shoot them with surprise.

The beliefs of the OP, possibly without knowing, is part of the reason we have the gun control we have now, and why there will be even more restrictions in the future. It's known as 'the slippery slope' and is how the Brits lost all their gun rights.

Charles Floyd, may have been a robin hood to some folks in Oklahoma, but
he was just a common criminal and killer to the rest of the world, I do believe.

No matter how one lays it out, his (Floyd's) advise on such matters would be tainted at best and deadly at worst.

I don't think his tactics played out so well for him in the long run.



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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

I'd open carry more if I had your rigs...

Although I know this thread has drifted here is an interesting sight about the early FBI. Faded Glory: Dusty Roads Of An FBI Era

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John. SWCA #1586

Both of you are correct, of course. In 2016, we see the Depression era criminals for what they were, even as we romanticize them in films and books.

Regarding the "Robin Hood" comparison, I'll venture to say that most Depression era people in the midwest and southwest didn't even know who Robin Hood is. I'll also venture to say that the thousands of displaced Okies and other hardscrabble farmers and tradesmen who lost everything in the Great Depression saw people like Floyd, Dillinger, Clyde Barrow, Bonnie Parker, et al as extensions of themselves. The bad guys were doing what ordinary people wanted to do. A lot of times, they'd publicly condemn people like Floyd, while in private they were approving their actions. People did not view them in the same light as they did the really hardcore criminals like Capone, Nitti, Lansky, and others of that ilk.

Hoodlums, punks, petty criminals, killers, thieves...sure they were. But whether we like it or not, they've become part of American historical folklore, just like Jesse, Butch, Sundance, Wyatt, Doc, and all those guys.


Television's full of programs detailing their lives and exploits. We can't get enough of 'em.

I'm sorry, I confess I didn't read all of the posts. But the title, "On Being Armed" prompted me to offer my personal credo that I have adopted:

On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman

May God bless.

Dave Grossman . . . A psychologist. The self-proclaimed authority on killing who has neither killed anyone nor been in combat . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

You left out "phony".

"Snake Oil Salesman" might be applicable as well.

I've seen him speak in person a couple times. I was trying to be nice . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

US Marshals do prisoner transports, fugitive apprehension, witness protection. Secret Service does protection for the President and other officials, and used to do investigations of counterfeit money and the like when they were with Treasury.

FBI is an investigatory branch of the Justice Department.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

They still investigate counterfeit money, as well as other financial crimes.

I've related this before.........

When I was a young man, one of my boyhood friends, his father was a WWII Veteran, like my father was.

Except my friend's Dad had been a POW in a Nazis prison camp in the later days of the war.

One time Mr. Gene was showing me a well finish worn pocket pistol he had brought back with him and
he told me this story.

"I'll always remember the day we were liberated, those of us that were able help the others
get cleaned up and dressed.

When I put on the pants they had given me, this pistol was in the pocket.

I'll never forget how good this lit'l handgun felt in my pocket that day."

He told me he had carried it everyday since.


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"IN GOD WE TRUST"