News is on local and national media about a reported CC holder and a traffic stop gone bad.

Aftermath of fatal Falcon Heights officer-involved shooting on video - StarTribune.com

Falcon Heights shooting: Woman livestreams aftermath - CNN.com

When the officer says 'keep your hands where I can see them' after you stated 'I have a gun'....I can totally understand the officer's reaction.

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On the Oak Savannah

My only comment is that in the video I saw, the female occupant, who is presumably the "live streamer," seemed remarkably calm . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

"The girlfriend said on the video that the officer “asked him for license and registration. He told him that it was in his wallet, but he had a pistol on him because he’s licensed to carry. The officer said don’t move. As he was putting his hands back up, the officer shot him in the arm four or five times.”

The video shows a uniformed police officer holding a pistol on the couple from outside the car. The officer can be heard to say, “I told him not to reach for it. I told him to get his hand out."

Aftermath of fatal Falcon Heights officer-involved shooting on video - StarTribune.com

According to the video the officer instructed him to present his lic and registration which was what he was reaching for when he was shot. The officer seems to have given conflicting instructions. The officer at no time refutes that statement on the 9+ minutes of tape. Do you still believe that the officer was justified? Honestly IMHO there are no grounds to make that type of statement. We have video of what occurred after the shooting. Nothing prior to it. We don't know exactly what the CC holder said or even what the cop actually said so I think you are rushing to judgement.

Also if you look at the video the officer is pointing his gun at a dying man and an unarmed lady with his finger in the trigger guard and his finger on the trigger. He is showing poor trigger disciple which might be an indicator of a poor level of overall training.

As usual, it's too early to speculate.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Don't open a can of worms unless you've been there. I'm guessing you haven't.

His gun is still on target. Get over it.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Get over it? You are kidding right? Is it standard operating procedure to cover an dying man and an unarmed suspect with your finger in the trigger? I don't have to be there to recognize poor gun handling. He is under stress and you can see him shaking and hear it in his voice. Holding a gun "covering" these people in that manner could have easily resulted in a ND. Clearly YMMV.

I am not speculating I am repeating what is on the tape. I have stated that we do not know all the details of what happened before the facebook video but we do have that. Stating what is one the video does not equal speculation.

As usual people want to argue before all of the facts are known. It's a news report for petes sake. Only the people involved know exactly what happened. Think we can wait until after the official investigation is done to pass judgement?

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

That is why I carry my ID and DL in my shirt pocket. Don't want to be reaching down in the vicinity of my gun under those circumstances.

I would also tell the officer "My ID is my shirt pocket may I get it now?"

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Eccentric old coot

And here we go again.

Many people who are already sure what happened probably already knew before it even happened. Either another innocent black guy killed by a cop, or a hard-working cop responding reasonably to a threat. Pick your side.

The investigation will no doubt find out whatever can be found out. The result will make nobody happy. The video will be largely useless, since it shows nothing of the actually important events, and the two most important witnesses, the officer and the woman, are both heavily invested in their specific view of how things went down.

For those CHL carriers who habitually carry on the right hip IWB or out, and their wallet in the right back pocket like most guys, a sobering reminder how uncomfortably similar the motions of reaching for either look to others. I don't think this would be the first instance of such a misunderstanding leading to grief.

It is not to early to speculate that in fact a man lost his life because of mistakes, whether it be on his part or the officers part......no speculation here, a man is dead unnecessarily.

If a person tells a Cop "yes I have a gun" Then is told to give me (the cop) what ever paper work he wants.....and then is shot for his trouble....not right

About a few years ago...while I still lived in San Diego CO. CAL, my son and I were coming back from a shooting range and had to pass through a Border Patrol Check Point. A female Agent had passed us through , then saw our rifles in the back seat and yelled "STOP" she began to question us , where the guns legal? did we belong to the gun club shooting range we were leaving? on and on until a male agent with , apparently some experience and common since, came over to us and said we can go.

The female agent had her hand on her pistol and was visibly shaking.....What can go wrong???

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A Snider squibbed n the Jungle

Assuming you have a minute or so from the time you stop until the officer reaches your door, getting your wallet out and holding it in your hand on the top of the steering wheel would be a good idea.

Then your hands are in sight and you don't have to reach for anything to get your id out.

Not all the facts are known, that said, in my view it was just a matter of time. In Texas alone there are now over one million people with a carry permit and there are nervous LEO's out there, and rightfully so. They now have a target on their backs....I have a daughter, daughter-n-law and a cousin in active law enforcement and having met some of their co-workers and can tell you there are some that feel John Q. Public has no business carrying a firearm. This attitude and the apprehension on our LEO's and a momentary lapse in judgment of a carry holder could lead to this happening.

I have been pulled over twice by police and have not experienced any unreasonable request by the officer in question after identifying myself, but, I can see how it could go very wrong very quickly. I switched the back pocket where I carry my wallet to the opposite side I carry my weapon just for this reason. In both cases of being pulled over the officer and trooper asked the location of my firearm and I responded and then informed the LEO as to the location of my ID. I keep my strong side hand in view and inform the officer I am getting my ID as requested and move very slowly. Since those stops I now will have my ID ready when the LEO reaches my truck with both hands in plain sight.
This was a terrible tragedy and I pray God will help the ones directly involved as well as those close to them that must help them work through this.

Not to judge the story in the news, but for over a half century, my husband has realized that reaching into his back pocket while seated in a car is potentially problematic. He always politely asks permission to exit the car to retrieve his wallet, and rotates his body to keep his hands and pocket in view of the LEO.

and the police KNOW which side you carry your gun on??

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A Snider squibbed n the Jungle

From what little I have read/watched

The driver had a carry permit and was employed for over 10 years at the same place, which if true would indicate he's not just a street criminal druggie thug. A woman and her child were also in the car. The woman sounded sober. The stop was for a tail light out. Is ll that true? Duknow...

IF what we have here is a good guy with a gun shooting another good guy with a gun then that's very bad news.

That would be extraordinary dedication to the cause...

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Because of the metric system?

I posted this response on another thread about the same incident.

A sad situation indeed. We'll probably never get to the bottom of what really happened and how it went down. I find it interesting, though, how fast the girlfriend whipped out her cell phone and started recording. Had this been me, I believe I'd have been a little more stunned at the outcome, before thinking to get it all on tape. Could we have here a scenario that was planned (in order to accuse the cop of police brutality), but not expected to end like it did? Just sayin', but hoping I'm wrong.

Agreed, it would be, but if you weren't expecting it to end in a fatal shooting, then maybe you might try it.

BTW, sorry, I edited the original post you replied to just a bit.

We just don't know what happened. For all we know, the guy who was killed was belligerent towards the officer and created an unnecessarily tense situation.

I hope one or the other officers was wearing a body cam. That would make it easier to determine what happened before the shooting.

I'm probably hoping against hope that this won't go ballistic.
The LEO shooting of the CCW. I don't know the facts, and that is IMPORTANT, but going by the girlfriend's account and video, this one is not good.
If things went down as she said they did, I don't see this as a justified shooting.
As I said, I wasn't there, I do not know the true facts, but what is going out on the airwaves does not look good.
I do take that into account and am wondering about the detached filming of the whole thing. It may mean nothing, but it is a little strange.
I hope that it wasn't an unnecessary reaction on the part of LEO.
I'm not an automan that thinks whatever LEO does is Ok, but I do give them the benefit of the doubt.
In the end, they are civilians, like us.
Prayers for all involved and hope for a justified resolution.

Not trying to go to far off subject but.If I have you stopped and you are reaching for your waist,seat or fumbling around with your hands out of sight.I might think you are getting a weapon or hiding drugs.It will raise my alert level.

The Facts as we know them.
1) Car pulled over for broken taillight.
2) Driver tell officer he has a legal gun in car.
3) Police shoots driver 4 times.
5) Police officer rightfuly appears to be very upset and states I told him not to move.
4) Girlfriend with child in back seat films aftermath of shooting and post video to web.
6) Girlfriend remains strangely calm and is cuffed and placed in back of police car,where she continues to film.
She did show some emotion as she is removed from car.
7) No body cam on police officer, maybe one in patrol car?
8) Police Officer was White, driver was Black.

Did I miss any of the KNOWN facts.

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Thank you
Penmon AKA Jim

I stopped reading after the first 2 words...

Would it have made a difference if the man was a different race?

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Jorge

Jessie, I agree. Since my accident, I despise Monday morning Quarterbacking. Bottom line, this one isn't looking very good.

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Judge control not gun control!

As I was not there to witness either event, I’ll not offer any comments other to say it’s a terrible tragedy for everyone involved, and I’m sending my prayers for everyone.

However, what initially struck me as strange is the girlfriends behavior. Didn't she seem awfully calm as her boyfriend was sitting there dying? Brought up live stream, talking calmly to the officer. Maybe shock? I don't know, but strange.

stories like this are best left to the news media...........they do an outstanding job of extreme dramatization on a topic....until the next tragedy occurs.....

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There's nowt so queer as folk

From what I've seen the video starts after the fact, so is just as reliable as listening to someone's account afterward. It's just her word.

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- The Federalist #46 -

I carry my ID Credential, with badge and all identification in the badge case on the top, left outside pocket of my shirt, jacket or vest. I do not reach for it until the officer is aware and gives his permission. My pistol is IWB, cross-draw position on my left side waist on my belt. I use my left hand to display the credentials, not my right hand.

We will have to wait for the facts, if we ever do get them. But I thought the driver said he had a firearm as he reached for his wallet. The police told him not move and the driver continued bringing his hand up. He probably thought everything was going to be fine when he gave his I.D. and CCW permit to the officer. Unfortunately, the officer told the driver not to move and could not see what the driver had in is hand. This is how you get shot. When I have been pulled over, I put my windows down and if after dark turn all of the interior lights on and keep my hands on the steering wheel until told to do otherwise. I feel for everyone involved. ALL lives matter.

Who said he told the cop he had a gun? The girlfriend? Why doesn't she have it on camera? She probably started rolling as they were stopped. I've said it before: Shall notify laws are not for the cop's safety, they're for YOUR safety so when you forget you have a gun next to your wallet, you don't get shot going for license when the cops sees the gun you forgot to mention....

I'm figuring if I keep watching what the media wants me to see and hear over and over and over how these cops 'gun down' innocent law abiding citizens, I'm sure I'll be able to eventually come to a unbiased conclusion as to what happened and a full official investigation won't even be necessary.

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- Change it back -

Dumb move. Hold still and wait for the officer's directions. Then, follow them exactly.

Don't be fumbling around in your car before the officer gets there.

This exactly !!
I would also tell the officer i have a gun in the car/truck,
Would you like to control it until we conclude business?

Some folks would not announce and that's fine as well.

But if i got a nervous Police officer drawn down on me
i do NOT remove either of my hands from his view until
he has calmed down.

I don't know what happened in this case but hopefully
it is investigated properly and settled correctly.


Chuck

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They hold no Quarter

I was pulled over couple months ago. I handed the trooper my driver's license along with my carry permit AND at the same time I told him I have a carry permit and I'm carrying right now. He asked where my gun was, I told him, and he said please don't reach for it. It couldn't have gone any smoother. He didn't seem too worried.

As for this incident, let's wait and see what develops. We only know for sure what happened AFTER the woman started her video.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

Undoubtedly.

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Not in jail.

It's really quite simple. Really it is. Use some common sense. But above all, respect authority.

Now....If you don't respect authority at least be smart enough to know your talking to someone that can usually bring their gun into play quicker than you can. One way or the other you will lose.

Parents are to blame when their children make bad decisions. Parents that tell their children that those in authority are the enemy. Parents that allow their children to be disrespectful. Parents that teach their children to take what they want when they can. To be selfish.

Meanwhile, as that parent stands in front of the TV camera and proclaims "my boy never hurt nobody!". They only have themselves to blame.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

All I can remember in the concealed carry class I took was the number of times they showed the film how to announce to the police that your carrying a firearm or arms. Keeping hands on the wheel, letting him know your carrying and have a permit, and then asking how would you like to proceed.
I kind of wonder if he had his pistol drawn when he approached the car?
I guess it's a matter of time before we find out some of the answers.
I finished my class and have my license, I have yet to carry outside of the home. I don't plan to do so unless I feel the need, and only then.
It seems very risky, regardless of color. I don't think any policeman feels comfortable once he hears those words come out of someone's mouth.

Also while at a party of the 4th a friend told me he knew of a guy that was doing the classes, and only charging $150.00 and just signing off on the people. All I can say is these are some of the situations that will only go to make things worse, People getting the license without the schooling, a recipe for more heartache.

Perfect!

Do what you'd want someone to do, if you were in the officer's position.

I was out fishing a couple of years ago, and a couple of state game wardens pulled their boat up to me and asked for my license. I said, "It's in my drybox, inside the console, and I have a pistol on top of it. I have a carry permit. What do you want me to do?".

He told me to go ahead and bring it out. I laid the box open on the seat next to me, in their full view, and picked up the pistol with two fingers and laid it on the seat. Gave them my license and stood still, with hands in view, till the game warden handed everything back. They thanked me for my cooperation. I waited till they were headed off, to put everything back.

These situations are definitely "ounce of prevention beats a pound of cure (and a ride to ER)", and as carry permit holders, the prevention is by and large in OUR hands.

My home state, NC has a Must notify requirement for CCW. It’s strongly suggested, if stopped (in your car) you do the following. Roll window down half way, keep both hands on steering wheel, and notify officer as soon as he approaches your car. I’ve not had any experience with this, thank goodness, but have been told it works well for everyone.

Not required to notify in PA, but I did anyway when pulled over a few years back. I didn't see the harm in it. Ms. Trooper asked where it was, and it was never brought up again. Hands stayed on the wheel unless she told me to do otherwise.

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Because of the metric system?

We were not there so we do not know the whole story. Speculation is unfair to all parties involved.

From what I saw, it's a bad shoot. Not gonna turn out well.


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Just so everyone knows, I believe the driver was probably a good man. I have seen nothing to make me think otherwise. As to race making a difference. I don't think so. I could be wrong.

But that won't stop anybody. Including the media.

I have stopped over a thousand individuals in 33 years. My advice follows. Your mileage my vary.
1. Turn off car, roll window down, dome light on, keys and hands flat on dash.
2. Officer will into duce self and state reason for stop.
3. Your response " I'm soory to have placed you in this position. I am a cch holder and
Am armed. How would you like me to proceed? I will cooperate fully sir or maam.

Follow instructions.
We watch hands. Your displaying yours in open, keys too indicate your not going any where.

We figure everybody is armed.
The above shows you are deescelating the contact.

If you feel citation in error, seduce a court hearing.

I would have not cited an individual acting as above unless violation was dangerous





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Just completed everything here in Tennessee for carry permit. I have been following this story and have one question:
If the officer was fearful of the situation why didn't he immediately retreat back to the cover of his car?