I was just wondering what to do if ever faced with this scenario: I'm in the local convenience store, buying a candy bar, and in walks a dude in a hoodie & points a gun at the cashier, demanding money. As a CCH holder, what do I do? Is this already considered a deadly situation, with the cashier at gun point? Do I draw my pistol and shout " drop the gun, I will shoot you". I know that there are probably different circumstances that could determine how I react. For example, if there are bystanders in the line of fire. That would certainly change things.

I know there's no way of knowing what's going on in the robbers head. What if he's bluffing, and just wants to take the money & run. What if he's going to shoot the cashier, regardless. What if draw my pistol, shout a warning, and the robber shoots the cashier anyway? I know there's LEOs on this forum. As a CCH holder, what should I, or shouldn't I do? I want to do whats right, not do something that would make a bad situation worse! Any advice is much appreciated.

Know the laws of your state

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In light of present day society; your thoughts certainly could happen to any of us.
I have no concrete answer; but in recent times it seems the GUILTY are the "put-upon" VICTIMS, and the attempted savior is the one that is to be hanged by the neck, and burned at the stake.

I hope you get some sensible replies. I am interested also.

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wanna do right-- not right now

Your CCH doesn't make you the Lone Ranger or Batman.

Are you in imminent danger in your scenario?

Best learn when you can use deadly force in your state.

I'm not a cop nor expected to act like one.(Been CCW since early 70s and gave this a lot of thought!) I would do my best to get out of the line of fire. Then I would get a good look at the perp to help the cops in the ensuing investigation to follow.

If by some chance the crook fired and hit someone at that point if I was in a reasonably safe position and others were out of the line of fire I would do what had to be done.

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

I'm surprised this scenario was not questioned in great detail during your CC class. It surely was in my SC class.

Be a good witness. My first responsibility is to go home to my family. Unless my life is in immediate danger, I would not draw my firearm and I certainly would not challenge the robber. As others have advised, you need to know the laws in your state regarding use of deadly force. What if the robber's gun is a toy and you shoot him? What if when you challenge him to "drop the gun or I'll shoot" he whirls around and shoots you? Could ruin your day.

Drummer Boy,

That is a good question and I do agree with Arik’s response to learn the laws in your jurisdiction. What is a felony in one state might be a misdemeanor in another.

You need to look at the totality of the circumstances and then be able to articulate minute details into why you took what action that you did.

You are not a peace officer so you do not have the legal obligation to take action or to attempt a detention. If the suspect is cool and calm and the clerk is compiling and giving up the money or merchandize and everybody is acting like this is just another business transaction, then be a good witness. But if any one of those things is different you might need to take action. Say that the suspect is excited and being overly aggressive, maybe under the influence or acting crazy, and maybe the clerk is arguing with them and things seem to be getting uglier instead of better, then you might need to take action aggressively and use deadly force.

There are many books or magazine articles that describe different scenarios. You can see some examples of excellent training scenarios on-line. There are schools you can go to where these situations are discussed. But one of the best rules to remember is that we do not apply deadly force to protect property, only to protect human life. You can hold that “rule” up and use it as a benchmark in about any scenario. Deadly force should only be used as a last resort to protect your own life or the life of others.

Our CCW instructor beat that horse to death. I can't remember how many times he said "remember.....you are not a cop". Great advise.

Step One -- Don't get caught flat-footed in the first place! Don't face the cashier directly at the register, quarter yourself so you have a view out the front window. If the front windows of a particular store are covered in advertisements, maybe consider shopping somewhere else, as that's simply begging to be robbed.

Step Two -- Get some local advice

As a former convenience store clerk, I would submit that if someone were pointing a gun at me, the last thing I would want--and this is key--is for someone to startle him!

---

Personally, this falls into the ventilate-without-warning category. Because there are two options. Option One is that I truly believe in my heart of hearts that the attacker is going to shoot the clerk, at which point he's probably going to shoot me. Since my belief is that lives are in immediate and unavoidable danger, then giving warning is inconsistent. I should use every available advantage and tactic to ensure survival.

Option Two is that I don't believe the guy is really about to shoot someone, at which point warning is consistent, but I've just escalated a situation to immediate-deadly when I didn't believe it was there yet.

My considerations:

(1) I have no sworn duty, and my primary ethical responsibility isn't to the clerk (sorry, pal).

(2) As with any gunfight, you can lose, no matter how advantaged you are.

(3) The attacker you see may not be the only one present. He may have an accomplice already in the store, and he may have an accomplice outside, potentially with even heavier artillery.

So I would intervene only if the danger was truly imminent. Ideally when the muzzle isn't covering anybody. And I would absolutely act if he told everyone to get in the back room or something, as that's a prelude to execution.

If he starts shooting-kill him
otherwise don't escalate a bad situation

I don't claim to be a super hero, thank you very much! I'm just not crazy about watching someone innocent get shot in the face! I don't have to be in imminent danger! I don't know about Colorado, but, here in NC you're allowed to use deadly force in defense of others, if the other person appears to be in imminent danger of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault, but, only to the extent the other person was entitled to use deadly force in self defense. Based on that, I'm thinking that the gun pointed at the cashier would be imminent danger of death, but I'm not sure. I was hoping for some useful advice.Thanks for your "help"

He's a lawyer-pay attention...

I think you recieved some useful advice. Maybe not as clear and concise as you wanted, but that is the way with scenario questions. As has been alluded to, there are inumerable things that can influence how you might react. I think the "eyeroll" was a bit much since you got sincere, well thought out advice.

I am not trying to upset or troll you, it is just very serious business and cannot be covered in a few posts.

I do commend your desire to do the right thing.

Our 8 hr course wound up going 10hrs, but our CCH instructor never covered a situation like that. He covered many scenarios, but nothing like that. However he did say " you are not the police". One scenario I remember was: A guy with a finger gun, inside his coat pocket, turning & acting aggressively toward you. He said you have the right to "stop the threat". The fact that he's using a finger gun is" his problem", because in your eyes he could possibly have an actual handgun in his jacket. His words were "too bad, too sad"!

Depends on state law, but almost universally you are not required to give a warning or announce your intentions. 99% of the time, it won't go bad, you don't have to do anything. That one percent is what you need to be prepared for. So nobody can give you a definite do/don't do for any scenario. You have to exercise your own judgement.


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C store clerks are told to surrender the money. It can be replaced. You have no dog in this fight. Back off to cover, escape if possible. Be a good witness from a distance. The store doesn't want your help. You could start the ball rolling and get people killed, including yourself. Some BGs can shoot quite well, and quickly.
If your life becomes threatened, then your weapon can be used.
I managed a c-store for a lot of years. Last thing I wanted was a gun fight over a corporations money.

If you are in fear of your immediate death or serious bodily injury and have no reasonably safe means of escape, no warning is necessary. I understand that others have stated that defense of others is allowed in various jurisdictions, but I know that I'm going home alive every night. Others, both innocent bystanders and perpetrators, I'm not so sure about . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

After a bad guy here robbed a local bakery got what he wanted a Patron recognized him and he killed ten people. Soon after I got my gun permit. Working pumping gas at night I told the owner to give them what they want. On the way out if the robbers shoot at us for him to kiss the cement and I'll fire back. I say to cover all the bases give the robber what he wants. Don't put your life on the line unless your life is in danger and shot at. I'm no hero, I'm not getting involved in a robbery. Once your life's in danger that's the game changer.

Sorry......I just didn't want to come across as a macho southern boy with a gun, that's just itchin' to shoot somebody! I'm normally a very mild mannered person, that avoids trouble at all cost! I've never been in trouble in my life.......(well, except for a few speeding tickets) I have big feet! I'll run off the road to avoid hitting a squirrel! (yeah, I'm THAT guy) I've never witnessed anyone being shot, and I hope that I never have to.

In a recent bar robbery 3am a WM with a hoodie came in displaying a weapon (it was real) and had the bar tender fork over the contents of the till...there were three customers seated on bar stools the bad guy then started going through the pockets of the patrons taking money, when he got to the third patron up close he reached to pat him down and the (73 Yr old retired cop) grabbed his gun hand and immediately shot him in the face with his rusty trusty Mod 36 Smith - he was dead before he hit the ground......Boo Hoo he was a poor local boy Heroin druggie (DOA) He probably could have walked out with the contents of the till but he got greedy, Point is let whatever happens happen but if you're carrying and they make like they're gonna go through your pockets or tell you they want to lock you in the ladies room - its time to go to war, better to die fighting than let (them) take U over.

Thanks to all the replies. What I've learned so far is: don't assume that the robber is going to take a shot at the cashier. Don't draw the weapon unless the situation escalates into a deadly situation toward myself or someone else.

PS - I probably could have saved myself, and everyone else, some time and just asked my wife the same question, in which she would probably say " don't get involved"!

I have, and there are a couple of possible things you haven't considered.
1. Real life, "robber" is pulling a fraternity prank and gets shot by a third party.
2. Bystander pulls gun to stop robber, and is shot in the back by the robbers lookout.
3. Bystander rescues damsel in distress in store parking lot, damsel hops in car and leaves, bystander is arrested for armed assault on plain clothes police officer.
4. Bystander misses robber and kills another bystander

It is highly unlikely any real situation will unfold the way you picture it in advance in your mind, so a thorough knowledge of the law and realistic situational awareness are vital.

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Science plus Art

IM Not sure you will like my answer. IF you asked me this question in a Classrom setting I would 1. Consider the question and determine If I had covered the question in class before you asked it.

2. IF I had not covered it, I would then ask you to hold the question until I covered same.

Once I covered the question/s I would say this to you, " Now that I have covered the subject I will ask you to answer the question which is, Tell ,e what the threat of deadly force is and tell me. How the threat of deadly force differs from the use of deadly force?

Give me the wrong answer and I will suggest you have no business carrying a firearm concealed or otherwise. In other words if you don't know the answer you should be unarmed until you learn the answer.

If you see one robber, expect a second. If you see two robbers, expect a third.

Don't take action when there are people behind you that you cannot identify or control.

If you issue a verbal challenge, try to do so from a position of cover.

Make sure you're not holding a weapon when police arrive.

If you shoot a robber, seek immediate medical attention for him.

Remember that the recording of your 911 call is available to lawyers of the guy you shot. Don't say anything you don't want repeated in the courtroom.

Don't chase after a robber. You move from self defense to an attempted citizens' arrest, a very shaky area of law.

Don't make citizens' arrest.

You are responsible for innocent bystanders you may accidentally injure.

I could go on and on.

Read and heed.

I think it depends on the State your in. If i have a clear shot
i would take the shot to take him out because he might kill the clerk then turn around and kill any witnesses. I would rather
act while I have the advantage, rather than to outdraw him once he dispatched the clerk and turned on witnesses.
Armed robbery in Texas is a serious crime and justifies the
use of deadly force to stop the felony in process.

I slept at a Holiday Inn last night and believe you are allowed to retaliate with the same force that the "victim" would be permitted, under the law. So, know what those laws are, properly interpret the situation (like, it's not the cashier's friend playing a prank), and act accordingly. Fact is, even if he's playing a prank, and you react within the boundaries of the law, you'd still be ok. Now, let's define ok.

Geography will play a huge part in how this plays out, but here goes:

In our justice system, you are presumed innocent until proven guilty.

When someone is shot to death, it's presumed murder, until proven otherwise (perhaps not officially, but that's how most LEOs operate. And I'm not knocking them for it).

The fact is, there's a dead body and someone will have to answer for that. In this scenario, it's you. You murdered this man and the police and the DA will want to know why, as will his family, but we'll get to that later.

So, a young officer shows up, anxious to get his first collar, and he asks you what happened? You say, this guy came in with a gun, threatened the cashier and I shot him. "click" the cuffs are on and the odyssey begins. Hopefully, the DA and the police (video tape) agree with your version. And they both must agree. Of course, by this time, you might/should already have contacted your lawyer. In fact, the best answer to the officer's question is: this guy came in with a gun, threatened the cashier and now he's dead. Officer: "Well, who shot him?" You: "I'd like to call my lawyer."

Assuming you make it through the legal gauntlet, that's when the fun really begins. See, the guy you justifiably shot, had a family and their primary form of support is laying in the morgue, someone will have to answer for that. In civil court, the rules are much different and you could find yourself on the wrong end of that. Heck, the "victim" could have been the guy's wife and they planned the robbery together, but you messed it up by killing him.

No, I don't write crime novels, but the fact is that once you discharge a firearm, right or wrong, you could spend $75,000 or more digging your way out of that mess. I don't care if you shot the guy in your bedroom. With the wrong DA, and our civil court system, you could be in a world of hurt.

For me:

Plan A - evade and escape whenever possible.

Only fire when there is absolutely no other alternative to protect myself or others. YMMV

So lets take this thought process a step further.
What kind of gun does he point at the cashier? An old 25 Raven or a 12 ga pump shotgun?

Then, what are you carrying? A .22 mag derrenger or a FS M&P 45 w 11 hollow points?

Legalities aside, you need to assess your ( and that of others you've now committed) chance of survival if things go south.

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Dave

If you're carrying a gun its a good practice to make a habit of pondering " what if " gun scenarios that could possibly occur, Do not expect people to follow your commands....street wise scum bags know when you can shoot them, I have seen them try to surround a uniform cop and say "What'sha gonna do man Shoot me ?

Step 1. seek cover
Step 2. Become invisible behind cover
3. Do not move or make any heroic moves.
4. If BG takes money and exits building =let him/her go.
5. If BG starts to hurt people-do what you have to do to protect yourself.
6. If necessary- change diaper.

Some good answers above, some not so great. Some really bad. I like joseywales reply for the most part, although it's a little overly dramatic.

Knowing the rules of your jurisdiction is always important but in most cases in these 50 states the rules of self defense and defense of another are very much the same.

Naturally, where you are is very important because defending someone during an armed robbery in Tulsa, Oklahoma will generate a different reaction from the police than defending someone in a similar situation in Brooklyn, NY. This assumes your gun is legally carried in both such places, etc; let's not get into that issue.

The use of deadly force is only justified if you believe that you are in danger of being killed or seriously injured or that the same is true of someone else. The problem jurisdictionally is that such behavior is looked down upon, say, in Chicago, and is deemed praiseworthy in, say, Abilene. Even if the rules are the same, more or less, the police and the prosecutors have a very different mindset in these disparate jurisdictions.

Having said that, remembering that you do not have a duty to do anything is equally important.

Having said that, let me note that if you are ever so unfortunate to be in such a situation pulling your gun is very risky business because, as you describe it, you are in the perpetrator's line of fire. So avoiding his attention is very important. So, if you perceive the threat as deadly you are either going to step out of the line of fire, obtaining concealment, hopefully, and prepare to defend yourself if necessary or you're shooting. What you're not doing is having a discussion, meaning you don't shout freeze or anything like that. It's not required and only causes the gunman to focus on you. That is exactly what you do not want to happen.

Or, to paraphrase one of my favorite movie lines, if you're going to shoot, shoot; don't talk.

Except in very unusual circumstances, more fictional than real, the perp is not going to be in cahoots with the clerk. Nonetheless, you are going to be in a firestorm of questions from the authorities and you will have to justify your behavior. When I teach a license to carry handgun class I make it perfectly clear that the only thing you tell police is "I thought he was going to kill me (or him/her)" and then ask for an attorney.

But DO REMEMBER to re-holster your own weapon, or put it down, before the police arrive. Don't be mistaken for the bad guy.

I hope this clarifies some things for you.

On my way to work one morning in Sunnyvale, CA, about 4:30 a.m., I turned the corner to stop by the local 7-11 for my usual coffee and doughnut...my car stalled on me while I turned (bad carburetor). Got it started and continued on. When I parked and walked up to the front door, a guy ran out past me. Didn't give him a second look...walked in to find customers on the floor, the cash register open and empty. Stayed for the police to point out the direction of the robbery suspect. Couldn't provide more info than that...except I am glad that lousy Dodge Dart carburetor failed on me that morning...if I had walked in during the actual robbery, I might have been a casualty...and that happened over 25 years ago...will never forget it. If I had been armed? Would never have taken a shot...I ain't that good an aim, and in CA, I would have been arrested...even back then. Better to stay out of situations that can turn against you in a court of law.

I gotta have some fun!



Not true. Jerry, Elaine, George, and Kramer were all prosecuted under the Good Samaritan Law...

Yes and you must be willing: "I found most men aren't willing, they bat an eye, or draw a breath before they shoot. I won't." You all know that one


The Lt teaching our class many years ago took it a step further. He said to empty and clear the weapon, then place it on a table. He'd seen too many officers who didn't know how to clear a 1911, or whatever, and rounds end up in the ceiling. Just repeating what he said. He was a club member and knew his stuff. He was in a shootout in a grocery store. The guy had an AK. Police fired hundreds of rounds. 3 rounds hit their target and all from his gun. Funny guy to boot.

joseywales, yer killin' me......

Please do not think I'm a total dunce but.........to quote Paul Newman in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.....

Who are those guys?

And how do you get prosecuted under a Good Samaritan law that is designed to protect people who come to the aid of others, not prosecute them if they don't.

HELP ME OUT HERE JOSEYWALES!!!!

I live in the country and my neighbor, JR, has a barber shop that stays open till around 11 PM from Thursday through Saturday. He has a group of men that hang out and chat in the evenings and he is always CC. One evening a guy rushes in the shop with a large revolver and orders everyone to the floor. He is aggressive and makes several threats with strong language. JR is retired from the prison and knows how to read people. He told me that he never once even considered going for his pistol and was praying no one else would go for their's. I know there are times a person needs to act in self defense but this was not one of them. The robber had the drop on everyone. The situation ended with the robber exiting and no one hurt. He was never caught.

This is the very spectacular difference between most good guys and the bad guys; hesitation.

So I try to remember what my drill sergeant told me in bayonet basic training many moons ago:

1. There are only two kinds of bayonet fighters. The quick and the dead.
2. Never mind item two.....it's not something I want to say in a public forum - it's not that it's not clean, it's definitely normative English that the moderators will allow, it's just a special mindset teaching tool and I'm never sure if it's something the average good guy can handle. So, if you're a veteran of US Army basic training, you know what it is......let's just say that hesitation can get you killed.....

Seinfeld! The final episodes. The group watched, as a very overweight fellow got robbed and they did nothing. The last episode, just about every character that was every on the show testified against them and they all went to jail!

This is a continuation of a comment that may have been intended to be humorous. If not, it should be noted that they did NOT go to jail. It was a TV show. There was no particular concern for realistic legal detail. In my limited experience, it didn't have much concern for humor, either.

To expand my initial comment:

Are you willing to shoot this purported bad guy in the head? If you genuinely believe he's going to shoot the cashier, that's your option to prevent it.

Do you have the skill to do that?

Warning the bad guy (shouting something first) just alerts the bad guy, and is a really bad idea.

If you shout your warning, the bad guy should shoot the clerk before turning to you. (That's the right move for him).

Is that OK? Hope you have a good lawyer and lots of money for the lawyer. I'm happy to take your money, but wouldn't anticipate a good result for you in criminal or civil court. Welcome to years of litigation and giving every dime you have, or ever will have , to your lawyer. They'll earn every dime.

Are you quick enough to draw and hit your target (bad guy's head) before he shoots you?


Are you willing and able to draw and hit the bad guy in the head before he (maybe) shoots the clerk? I suspect OP's skill wouldn't meet this requirement since he doesn't seem to have much training.

What about the BG's buddies? Have you determined there are none or do you think you are able to hit them all?

What, in this scenario, creates an imminent danger to you or anyone you have a legal right to protect?

Welcome to court.

OP has more to consider than he or she thinks.

Being a 'hero' has lots of costs.

OP isn't the Lone Ranger who rides off into the sunset after straightening out the situation .

He's stuck with the consequences.

Judge Learned Hand once said that the only things worse than being a litigant was 'serious illness or death'

He was right.

This scenario's a well traveled road. Say you decide to intervene, and get the drop on Mr. Bad Guy. Instead of complying, Mr. BG decides he likes his chances, opens up on you. Now everyone in the store and passing by on the street is in play. Mr. BG doesn't care, he's been inside before most likely, but you, every round in your mag/cylinder has a lawyer attached. No matter how good your intentions, you hit a kid coming in to buy a Slurpee, it's your keister. Add to that, the responding police won't know which of you is the bad guy. Do yourself a favor, unless he starts shooting, be a good witness. If all Mr. Bg wants is the money, let him go. The store's insured.

Thanks for the input. You have given me a lot of things to consider that I didn't think about. Sorry for sounding cocky in earlier post, that wasn't my initial intention.(had a bad day) I do appreciate a lawyers point of view. You're absolutely right about me not having enough skill for a head shot, and I'm not foolish enough to think so. I'd be lucky to get a center of mass shot, if the situation escalated to require deadly force. Based on your information (and the majority of others) it would be best to not get involved. Being a hero is definitely not something I'm shooting for! (pun intended) A lot of hero's wind up dead!

Stay out of convenience stores! And quit eating those stinking candy bars.

Read this and decide for yourself. Commentary by Evan Marshall

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

your not a LEO and are not expected to act as one .. if you are not in fear for your life or the life of another and the BG is not violent be a good witness and have good eyes to give the investigating LEO's reliable info on the suspect's description !!

If BG is violent in any way or makes everyone move to another area or room it's time to act ..

I would never give a BG a warning to drop his weapon .. it could well get you killed or someone else if they were to open fire at your command to drop the weapon .. especially if there are more then one BG's .. there is nothing fair in a gun fight .. It is your objective to survive at all cost and at that point to stop the BG !!

"When you have to shoot, shoot...don't talk". Tuco

Hmmmm, sums it up for me.

If he comes in with a gun pointed at a clerk he is violent.
If i were not willing to take the shot, i would not carry a gun at
that point. I don't like trying to outdraw someone who already
has a gun pointed at me. Once he draws the gun and points
it at a human, he is in the act of committing a felony. While
i am not the law, i don't intend to give him a chance to take
a shot at me if i can help it.

Outstanding,..... be a great witness. UNLESS, your life or anothers is in imminent danger.

Your default solution should be to be invisable during, and witness afterwards. Unless and until the situation turns specifically deadly.

I will present the SOPs that were used at a liquor store back in the old neighborhood that had frequent robberies.

All the employees were encouraged to be armed, not just the specific register guy. As long as the robber was mostly coherent, hand over the money in the register, and let him go. They practiced good cash control, made frequent drops into drop safe, and would only have a few hundred in the register at any time.

But IF :
1. The robber was noticeably high and unpredictable.
2. Robber(s) would endevor to herd people into back room.
3. Robber initiated an attack.

Then everyone would go into OK Corral mode.

One occasion my friend wasn't carrying his usual 2.5in Python when a robber came over the counter at him. He used his Gerber Mk I knife to cut threw the gun arm down to the bone.