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  #51  
Old 04-24-2017, 08:43 PM
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Improvements to LEOSA:

1) Allow Hi-capacity mags to those covered under LEOSA.
2) Clarify that only need to qual with either auto or revolver, not both.
3) Exempt those carrying under LEOSA from the Gun Free School Zone Act.

Last edited by JWM; 04-24-2017 at 08:54 PM.
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  #52  
Old 04-26-2017, 07:14 PM
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My county only requires retirees to qualify with one type of weapon, but issues a card that allows for both.

LEOSA is purposely vague to be as inclusive as possible, but what does "type," actually mean? Nowhere in 926c is it defined.

Last edited by Dr.Lou; 04-26-2017 at 09:40 PM.
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  #53  
Old 04-27-2017, 04:25 PM
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LEOSA relies on the definition of a "firearm" from 921;

(3) The term “firearm” means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

From the NRA's FAQ section on LEOSA;

1. Does the agency who qualifies me need to make a record of the make, model, caliber, or serial number of the firearm I qualify with?No. LEOSA does not require the agency to maintain this information. This is a frequent concern given the statute's use of the term "type of firearm." LEOSA authorizes the carrying of a "concealed firearm" of the same "type" the individual receives certification for. As there is no case law interpreting this wording, the word "type" should be read to conform with the dictionary definition; something distinguishable as a variety. Accordingly, "type" of firearm should be read to mean either long gun or hand gun, which would permit you to carry any type of legal long gun or hand gun based on your qualification and not one particular make, model, or caliber. As an action outside of LEOSA requirements, the creation and maintenance of a database may expose the agency to liability, as discussed below.
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Old 04-27-2017, 06:40 PM
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I retired from a PD in Alabama, but live in Virginia. I worked in an adjoining county for over 7 years and got to know the sheriff very well. I have done my LEOSA qualification with that agency for several years now.

The card issued by the sheriff's office reads that I have met annual firearms training and qualification standards established by the SO to carry a concealed handgun, valid one year from date of issuance.

I have a lifetime permit from Alabama, a permit from Virginia and my LEOSA. I've also been known to wear a belt and suspenders.

"If you have any firearms training, such as law enforcement or military, the AZ permit is super easy to obtain. Fingerprints, copy of your firearms training, 1 page CCW permit application filled out, and a $60 money order, and you're good for 5 years. Renewal is $45."

My five year VA permit costs $15. I'm actually exempt from the fee as a retired LEO, but the county needs the money.
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Old 06-08-2017, 08:59 PM
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Well, thought I'd jump in here, not with anything new, but I just had the pleasure of qualifying with my old Department today at their new (still under construction) range. They could not have treated me any better. I first qualified with our old service gun, the Glock 23, and then they asked me if I wanted to go through with any other guns. I just happened to have my Smith and Wesson 640-1 Pro Series in the Jeep, and said sure. I did better with the 640 than the Glock!! In fact I aced the course with it. I have to admit that I didn't have any .357 with me, but had a box of 158 gr standard .38 spl. I had not planned to shoot it, but I'm glad I did. They recorded both my guns, so I have qualified with both a revolver and a semi., although we do not interpret LEOSA to require that.

I'm pretty happy, because I have to admit that I was a little nervous about shooting...I've been retired 20 years now, and even though I still shoot frequently, it's a different kind of shooting, and don't have range commands, and buzzers going off, and timed fire, and different positions, distances etc. but when I got there, everything fell into place, and I shot pretty good.

I'm a belt and suspenders guy, and I have a current WV permit, a current FL permit, and my LEOSA credentials as well. Not to mention that here in WV we now have "constitutional carry", so I guess here at home I'm covered 4 different ways.

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Old 06-08-2017, 09:49 PM
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Nice going, Les. I'll be heading out with the sheriff's office for my yearly qualification in a few weeks.
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Old 06-12-2017, 08:00 PM
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California has a history of ignoring certain aspects of obscure federal laws and essentially, will threaten to sue an individual or entity that California determines is not complying California's arbitray spin on the law - regardless of what the actual federal laws says. As an example, the Fair Credit Reporting Act (FCRA), is one of the areas of law that CA will decide what federal provisions it will follow - if any.

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  #58  
Old 06-12-2017, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by AimHigher View Post
California has a history of ignoring certain aspects of obscure federal laws and essentially, will threaten to sue an individual or entity that California determines is not complying California's arbitray spin on the law - regardless of what the actual federal laws says. As an example, the Fair Credit Reporting Act (FCRA), is one of the areas of law that CA will decide what federal provisions it will follow - if any.
Sounds a lot like NJ in that regard. (From things I've been hearing since, oh, the 80's.)
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Old 06-12-2017, 08:12 PM
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Sounds a lot like NJ in that regard. (From things I've been hearing since, oh, the 80's.)
Yes, and CA, NJ, NY and more will absolutely go ballistic with lawsuits if/when National CCW Reciprocity becomes federal law.
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  #60  
Old 06-13-2017, 08:35 PM
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Don't forget Massachusetts. We take a back seat to no one when it comes to creative interpretations. Last July our attorney general ruled that all the AR 15-pattern guns that were bought with the blessing of the state since 2004 were illegal to sell and own, and therefore a felony, but she wouldn't prosecute. For now.
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:52 AM
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Beginning July 1, 2017, Tennessee shall require an annual fingerprint submission for LEOSA recertification at an annual fee of $42 + $10 for "processing". What a joke.....not like your fingerprints change every year.
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Old 06-30-2017, 10:01 AM
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Beginning July 1, 2017, Tennessee shall require an annual fingerprint submission for LEOSA recertification at an annual fee of $42 + $10 for "processing". What a joke.....not like your fingerprints change every year.
Coyote56, do you know the reasoning behind the new law?
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  #63  
Old 06-30-2017, 11:40 AM
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Coyote56, do you know the reasoning behind the new law?
At a guess it would be to try to prevent someone fraudulently submitting an application posing as the authorized LEOSA candidate...

...and a way to raise additional revenue.

(I'm not so cynical to believe TN wants to discourage carry by (former) officers but anything's possible.)

I have to go Wednesday for mine. The lieutenant was kind enough to just now let me know that he had a conflict for our previously scheduled date so he's going to meet me for a one on one qual on the 5th.

I count myself very fortunate to have that kind of access and relationship with the local sheriff's department.
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  #64  
Old 07-05-2017, 02:46 PM
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Just had my LEOSA quals (day / simulated night) with the local sheriff's office and I'm good for another year.

95% / 100% (Day / Night) with my Glock 26

100% / 98.7% with my Glock 19

When I got home to clean my guns I noticed that the front sight on the G26 had come loose. (Trijicon HDs on all of my Glock 9's.)

I guess it didn't hurt me too much but won't carry until I get it squared away tomorrow or the next day.
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  #65  
Old 07-05-2017, 03:10 PM
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I just returned from my qualifications. Used a Glock Model 17 9mm and S&W Model 15 .38spl.
Make, Model, Caliber, and Serial Number was recorded by the range officer.
Because this is the least expensive factory ammo available at Wal-mart.
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Old 07-05-2017, 03:26 PM
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Here in NC they only record the make and model qualified with.

I used to carry a S&W model 15 back in NYC in the early to mid 80's.
We'd use the NYPD range at Rodman's Neck for our quals.

I don't take my G17 to the range for LEOSA since I generally only carry the 19 or 26 concealed at home or on the road.

Otherwise my state permit takes care of any other firearms I wish to carry like my 642 or 686+.
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Old 07-05-2017, 04:16 PM
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Had to stop by get my own LEOSA document renewed the other day, for an upcoming road trip out-of-state. Expired more than a month ago. Took a small .45 pistol and snub revolver.

No serial numbers recorded, but the qual document they provided lists both pistol and revolver, just to help cover any more needlessly stringent interpretations by any other agencies out-of-state.

I guess retirement is skipping by, as I keep having to renew for LEOSA.
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Old 07-05-2017, 05:30 PM
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I'm headed to LEOSA qualification tomorrow morning. As the president of our retirees association (no big deal, no one else will do it) I have a good relationship w/our chief. I'm taking my 17 y/o grandson w/me and looking forward to seeing all the old timers. Maybe a bet on who pays for lunch w/the lowest score (hope to get a free meal).
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Old 07-07-2017, 08:17 AM
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Shot a 97.6% which tied for the highest score in our group. Maybe next year . . .
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Old 07-07-2017, 08:52 AM
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Here in NH the rules put out by LE Standards and Training are very specific. Regardless of what you want to carry you HAVE to qualify with the gun of choice and the serial number is on your paperwork. There is no "one revolver and one semi" covers everything...

The only time I carry on my LE credentials is when I am in a state that is not covered by my NH or Ct. CC licenses. Maine, Vt. and NH are now all Constitutional Carry states so I can carry anything I want. But in Mass. RI, NY and NJ I only carry my "official" firearms with a max of 10 round mags and non-HP ammo just so there are no questions.

What I feel sorry for are officers from departments who refuse to issue a retirement ID. Mine was like that until one of the retirees threatened a lawsuit and all of a sudden the policy was changed....

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Old 07-07-2017, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AimHigher View Post
California has a history of ignoring certain aspects of obscure federal laws and essentially, will threaten to sue an individual or entity that California determines is not complying California's arbitray spin on the law - regardless of what the actual federal laws says. As an example, the Fair Credit Reporting Act (FCRA), is one of the areas of law that CA will decide what federal provisions it will follow - if any.
Last year I read where a retired out of state officer was arrested by some agency in California who refused to recognize his retired credentials...he was awarded $2,000,000 for false arrest....
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Old 07-07-2017, 09:20 AM
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Congratulations to all the guys who just requalified!!! It does seem like a counter, though, marking the passage of time. One of the positive aspects for me, though, is getting to see some of the other retirees who I only see at this annual event. Also, since ours is held at the same time as one of the active duty quals, I get to meet some of the newer guys.

Best Regards, Les
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Old 07-07-2017, 09:52 AM
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Requal'ed in May, the agency that conducts the LEOSA qual records the make, caliber and SN on the LEOSA cred's. So that takes the guess work out of it for me out of state. In state I have a life time permit, can carry what I want.
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Old 07-07-2017, 11:20 AM
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I want to thank all of my fellow (retired) LEOs for helping to keep this thread alive and relevant. Knowledge is power.
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Old 07-07-2017, 12:59 PM
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I'm glad Virginia is very gun friendly. However, it is difficult to get qualified here. I travel about 3 1/2 hours to the NRA HQ for qualifications. The personnel there are very friendly, competent, and helpful. It is worth the drive plus there is a very good restaurant at the NRA Museum.
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Old 07-07-2017, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
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Last year I read where a retired out of state officer was arrested by some agency in California who refused to recognize his retired credentials...he was awarded $2,000,000 for false arrest....
The internet is full of those stories. But when pressed for details no one ever comes up with names, depts. involved, case cites, etc. It's always "I heard" or "Someone told me" type stories. Just once I'd like someone to provide details and facts and not just "I heard". As cops on the job we never took anyone's word as fact. We required details and evidence. Yet, seems there a lot of cops who are quick to believe "I heard" stories and never ask for proof.
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Old 07-07-2017, 01:48 PM
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This is from 2011. Helping to train those who protect and serve | Sheepdog Academy: Off-duty Officer Wins LEOSA Settlement for False Arrest

The latest iteration of the LEOSA broadened and clarified several areas. Ammunition allowed and separated officers who are covered by the Federal law were expanded.

Hopefully this information is being disseminated to most Patrol level officers. Maybe those on this board who have a vested interest could make sure their retired/seperatee departments are up to date on the info. I got my ID and approval to attend the State Agency who does our retiree quals after showing my old department that the newest LEOSA had redefined the Federal definition of a retired officer.
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Old 07-07-2017, 04:34 PM
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Cases involving Coast Guard members are a bit unusual and not the usual "I heard" stories. Not all Coasties are covered by LEOSA. Only Boarding Party members. At the time of his arrest he could not prove that he was assigned to Boarding Party. In fact, he never mentioned such only that he was a Coastie. From the cite you'll also note that no one from the Coasties testified for the Coastie or nothing to prove that he was actually assigned as a Boarding Party unit.
You have to dig in to the details on these cases. They're not always as they appear or as a for profit entity would like to make them appear, ie, spend your dollars with us and we'll tell you the facts as we see them.
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Old 07-07-2017, 05:05 PM
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Thanks, Big D. When I read Baranowski's article my antennae went up as it didn't seem to be in line with my understanding.

On my card, in addition to all the certification mumbo jumbo it says:



Based upon that I'd only feel reasonably certain of being covered for any Glock 26 or 19. (But I'd like Baranowski to be correct if I had my druthers.)
You can carry ANY semi auto if you qualified with one. The card should state Semi Auto, Revolver or Both.

Agency's putting make and model are not complying with the LEOSA standard.

I teach it in NYS. It makes my blood boil when people make up their own rules, like NJ, who mandates you re-qualify 2x a year instead of once a year.
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Old 07-07-2017, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ultra45 View Post
You can carry ANY semi auto if you qualified with one. The card should state Semi Auto, Revolver or Both.

Agency's putting make and model are not complying with the LEOSA standard.

I teach it in NYS. It makes my blood boil when people make up their own rules, like NJ, who mandates you re-qualify 2x a year instead of once a year.
Hopefully, I'll never end up a test case dummy for LEOSA (though I do have PLI insurance via FEDS and incident coverage with FLEOA).

Apparently NJ has dragged its feet on hollow point ammo though it is authorized via LEOSA. (Retired LE in NJ cannot carry HP rounds unless carrying under color of LEOSA, however, last I've read.)

I'll be heading up that way (NY/NJ) later this summer so if I'm not around, hopefully a bunch of you guys can bust me out.

Oh, and getting back on topic...it seems that Baranowski's interpretation is that qualification with either a semi or revolver would qualify you to carry any handgun. Be nice if that were the case but I think I'll be leaving my 642 at home since it's not on my LEOSA card and not every state I'll travel through has reciprocity with my NC license.
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Old 07-07-2017, 11:03 PM
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The general interpretation here in WA is "type" is semi-auto or revolver, although I know of one agency that adds 1911. I do qualify with my Glock 17 and my S&W M66 to cover all the likely carry; my 1911 format guns are not likely to travel with me. Making it a specific firearm and S/N and claiming that to be a valid view is not possible to justify; I'd bet that came from someone is not a lawyer and/or has not read the law. As an LE legal advisor and in my writing/teaching/consulting, I deal with that regularly.
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Old 07-08-2017, 01:25 AM
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LEOSA needs to be amended once again to address the various defects cited above. Too much individual state interpretation on "type" of handgun. Also, this ten round magazine restriction has got to go.
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Old 07-08-2017, 03:06 AM
GerSan69 GerSan69 is offline
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Greetings all!
With all the "stuff" the active guys have to put up with these days, it's good to be retired, isn't it?
I've also experienced LEOSA in two states, CO and AZ. My former employer, Denver, has a retiree shoot one day each quarter to accommodate the old guys. Once a year is sufficient, but they don't mind if retirees want to show up at the other dates during the year for practice. Either revolver or semi is OK and successful qualification covers any firearm. The city concealed weapons coordinator handles the paperwork end and a concealed weapons permit card is issued. It's a different color than the standard permit (which is good for 5 years) and has LEOSA information on it. At the time I retired three years ago, there wasn't much info given to officers nearing retirement about LEOSA. I actually heard about the separate quals from another guy that was leaving around the same time I was.

Arizona is different. The individual can shoot with any department that allows outside retirees or choose from a list of approved instructors. They have separate quals for revolver and semi, so you have to shoot 50 rounds twice to have both on the card. It's also an annual requirement state. The state handles the paperwork and requires a letter from non-AZ agencies verifying status. They don't issue a permit (AZ has those, but doesn't require one for anybody) but instead give you a "firearms qualification card" to keep with your retired ID. All the info is on the Dept of Public Safety web site, including the form that the range officer or instructor signs for you.
Hope this helps someone!
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Old 07-11-2017, 09:18 AM
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KS requires any orphan retirees (Out of state, Feds) to qualify at the state LE training facility located more or less in the central part of the state. MO, from what I've been told, allows the retiree to qualify with a state certified instructor. KS mandates one qualification course for every state/local LEO and LEOSA. Don't know about MO's. KS is pretty specific and holds the retiree to two handguns. My employer's legal eagles recently published a LEOSA guide, and suggested that anyone carrying under LEOSA also obtain a state permit to cover potential gaps, i.e. state parks, etc. As I will join the retirement rolls sometime soon, I've been giving thought to what I'm going to carry. As I live in a Constitutional Carry state, I will obtain a permit along with LEOSA quals. I will likely officially qualify with a couple of pistols (43 or Shield) that don't cause problems in those states that starve magazine capacity. If I fall into another LE job, it may be a moot point. I certainly agree that LEOSA needs to be amended a third time and to pretty much remove the rest of the common sense-lacking restrictions that plague it.


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Old 07-14-2017, 06:12 PM
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Here in NH the rules put out by LE Standards and Training are very specific. Regardless of what you want to carry you HAVE to qualify with the gun of choice and the serial number is on your paperwork. There is no "one revolver and one semi" covers everything...

The only time I carry on my LE credentials is when I am in a state that is not covered by my NH or Ct. CC licenses. Maine, Vt. and NH are now all Constitutional Carry states so I can carry anything I want. But in Mass. RI, NY and NJ I only carry my "official" firearms with a max of 10 round mags and non-HP ammo just so there are no questions.

What I feel sorry for are officers from departments who refuse to issue a retirement ID. Mine was like that until one of the retirees threatened a lawsuit and all of a sudden the policy was changed....

Bob


Ugh, this is what I have to look forward to?? I tend to carry one of 4 guns, depending on weather and what I'm wearing. By comparison MA (which officially violates LEOSA on who can qualify, requires active LTC, etc.) does not log the gun you use on the cert (the "card" is 8.5x11") so you only have to go thru once. Finally convinced my Wife to start looking for what towns we might want to move to in NH too!
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ultra45 View Post
You can carry ANY semi auto if you qualified with one. The card should state Semi Auto, Revolver or Both.

Agency's putting make and model are not complying with the LEOSA standard.

I teach it in NYS. It makes my blood boil when people make up their own rules, like NJ, who mandates you re-qualify 2x a year instead of once a year.
Give 'em a call. Oughta clear it up right away . . .
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Old 07-18-2017, 02:33 PM
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I've been retired for 11 years now and all but the last two I qualified under Arizona LEOSA, the last 2 years I qualified at my old department in New Mexico. Both were easy paperwork and just qualify with the type you want to carry. Never bothered with a state permit. LEOSA was great to have when traveling back east to see relatives in NY & NJ.
I moved to Michigan after my last NM Leosa qual. and since I didn't have the time to travel back to NM when it was due to expire at the end of May, I looked into LEOSA here in Michigan and ended up just getting a MIchigan CCW, good in 40 states. LEOSA in Michigan seemed like a pain for out of state retiree.
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Old 07-18-2017, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
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I teach it in NYS. It makes my blood boil when people make up their own rules, like NJ, who mandates you re-qualify 2x a year instead of once a year.
Ultra,

The NJ standard for ACTIVE officers is twice in a one year period, the requirement they post for RETIRED officers is from their own legislation for a state RPO carry permit. Furthermore, that qualification may not be accepted in other states as it differs somewhat from the active officer requirement.

Most retirees I know view it as applying to those who are still captives in NJ.
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