Empty chamber is a fail ...

[Doug M.]

One of many here Fatal Wyoming bear attack: No round in the chamber on handgun - Guns.com.

There is no excuse for carrying that manner under any conditions, with the possible exception of carrying a cheap substandard firearm because that is all that one can afford. Other than that, this will only happen with people whose training (if they have any) is unacceptable. There are other examples of complacency and bad training here. (He took it off? WTH?) Note that among the entities investigating this were Wyoming's OSHA. If there is a decent regulatory structure there, the company will be hammered brutally for allowing such conduct. It will also likely have real liability to the survivors of the decedent.

If you are someone who carries in that manner, or advocates for it, lose your clownshoes, improve your mindset, and get some real training, or get away from firearms. If you are an employer who has armed employees going into harm's way, and are not mandating valid training and sound conduct with serious consequences for violations, it's time to reconsider that stupidity and change your practices.

[Rastoff]

I couldn't agree more. Why anyone would carry a gun without a round in the chamber is beyond me. I see no good excuse to have an unloaded gun for self-defense.

[gman51]

Sort of like Barney carrying his one bullet in his pocket.

[Fishinfool]

There have been a couple rare times I have carried an empty gun, on purpose.

Back in the day, there used to be an event called the New Milford Beer Festival. Two Troopers, and maybe two Constables roaming around providing law enforcement duties, packed in a small area with two or three thousand mostly drunk participants. The year before, a trooper had his gun snatched, but was able to get it back before things got really bad.

The year I worked it, I carried my issue model 66, empty, in my thumb break duty holster. My 586 was fully loaded, under my wind breaker, in a shoulder holster. Just seemed the prudent thing to do, with so many rowdy drunks pressed in all around me.

Larry

[S&W Rover]

This was something like the fourth death from Grizzly (or Brown) Bear attacks this year.

The guide should have had a back-up weapon -- a rifle would be better than a pistol, but a pistol could be okay. He had a 10mm semi-auto -- not a bad choice for a backup -- a loaded revolver in a caliber above .44 Magnum would be better -- but choosing to not have a round in the chamber was bad. Taking the holster off and grounding it was really bad. He paid the price for the mistake, sadly. (Part of his back up plan might have been to have the client, standing by, have a rifle at the ready while the guide cleaned the elk).

Maybe some strong rules will come of this for the guide businesses in Wyoming... but for everyone else, it is a good lesson for us to re-learn -- have the right degree of readiness for the situation. Everyone should know that gun shots (e.g., hunters shooting elk and deer) are a dinner bell for large bears in those places where they range.

[The Big D]

I once worked a full shift with an unloaded gun. Was running late, switched guns at the office, and forgot to load my duty gun. Entirely MY fault and felt really stupid for my negligence.

That said, I cannot imagine working with an empty gun on purpose. Glad it worked out for you but cannot comprehend why you did it intentionally. FTR, I regularly worked among large groups of people; people who were routinely rowdy, boisterous, and sometimes violent.

Be safe.

[steelslaver]

When this was reported earlier some people were very critical of the client for not shooting the bear with the handgun. Now we find the pistol belonged to the guide, he had taken it off to gut the elk, and it had no round in the chamber. So, in all likely hood the client gets to the gun, that he has no training or experience with, tries to fire it (under extreme stress), won't fire. Then, as the magazine was found out of the gun when the scene was investigated, the client tried to do something, possibly thought the mag release was a safety or something and dumped the magazine.

My thoughts, Poor plan to have an emergency handgun with an empty chamber that has to have something besides a safety be manipulated to fire.

Hardly the clients fault. Even if it was a 1911 with a round in chamber and safety on, with no training or familiarity he might have messed it up.

Almost everyone in the world can make a double action revolver go bang even if the hammer is setting on an empty chamber.

Both of them dropping their guard was bad. Guide could have had client stand by with pistol after cluing him in. After a great big game kill your attention is usually on the trophy at least for a while. Normal. Bears are extremely fast. Even if the guide ad had a round in the chamber and was wearing the gun it might have ended up the same away.

Wonder who emptied the bear spray can. Sounds like guide was dead before it was used. Maybe the bear bit it.

[GeoJelly]

I wish SWF had an unlike button - I would use it for at least one of the comments made above. Poor guy lost his life in Wyoming and the armchair quarterbacks are coming out in force - especially using denigrating terms like "clownshoes". OP wasn't there - and no one else on SWF was there either. We don't know, and probably never will know, all of the circumstances. The guy was trying to make an honest living, and lost his life as the result of making a serious mistake. But, getting up on one's high horse and making disparaging remarks after the fact is in very poor taste IMHO.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by S&W Rover

Taking the holster off and grounding it was really bad.

The adjective "bad" doesn't grasp the enormity of this failure.

In the Army, they teach you never to put your rifle down. I wasn't in the Army, but my friend was and told me this story:
"We were on [insert training exercise name] and had stopped for lunch. We were in the middle of the woods and had to eat on the ground. I found a log to sit on and leaned my rifle on the log next to me. My sergeant lit me up. He said that I was never to set the rifle down and should always have it slung."

When I asked why, he said, "Because if we get attacked at that moment, your first instinct is to dive for cover. Imagine how stupid you'd feel if you dove for cover only to realize that you left your one defensive tool back where you were sitting."

That's exactly what happened here. He put the gun down, but off his body. It may even have been in reach, but that was far enough when the bear attacked.


What I can't figure out is why he would take the gun off anyway. I mean, I do all kinds of stuff while wearing my gun. I've never cleaned an elk, but I don't see how my gun would prevent me from doing that.

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

The adjective "bad" doesn't grasp the enormity of this failure.

In the Army, they teach you never to put your rifle down. I wasn't in the Army, but my friend was and told me this story:
"We were on [insert training exercise name] and had stopped for lunch. We were in the middle of the woods and had to eat on the ground. I found a log to sit on and leaned my rifle on the log next to me. My sergeant lit me up. He said that I was never to set the rifle down and should always have it slung."

When I asked why, he said, "Because if we get attacked at that moment, your first instinct is to dive for cover. Imagine how stupid you'd feel if you dove for cover only to realize that you left your one defensive tool back where you were sitting."

That's exactly what happened here. He put the gun down, but off his body. It may even have been in reach, but that was far enough when the bear attacked.


What I can't figure out is why he would take the gun off anyway. I mean, I do all kinds of stuff while wearing my gun. I've never cleaned an elk, but I don't see how my gun would prevent me from doing that.

Good sergeant, good post.

[Alk8944]

Here is a link to an earlier story about this situation.



Missing outfitter Mark Uptain found deceased | This Just In | jhnewsandguide.com



It appears there may have been two guns present, the one "Thrown to the guide" belonging to the client. Possibly the magazine separated from the gun when it struck the ground. It doesn't even mention the guide being armed! We seem to place too much emphasis on what was not said/reported rather than what actually can be confirmed as having happened!


My only criticism, if any, is my understanding that the guide, in any hunting scenario/context, is to protect the client. If he allowed himself to be distracted from this duty by assisting in cleaning the animal instead of remaining vigilant, this is the biggest failure I can see in this episode. Unfortunately he paid for whatever lapse with his life, a pretty severe penalty for what seems to be a lapse in judgement. Maybe this should be codified in Wyoming Game Law.

[steelslaver]

I do agree that the whole thing is tragic. I have had some great experiences near there. I have seldom been completely focused on what if a bear comes. Few are.

[shouldazagged]

I've carried only revolvers (fully loaded, of course) for years; but when I carried automatics it never occurred me to carry with an empty chamber.

Packing that way in big bear country is foolhardy in the extreme, but it is in a city like mine as well. A big griz or an armed human assailant won't wait while a slide is racked.

Unless this was oversight, I can't fathom how it happened. I also can't understand it if it was oversight. I would have a healthy respect for huge bears.

I'm sorry he died, but I don't think it had to happen.

[imcrazy]

Really a sad situation... I can't imagine why you'd need to set your sidearm aside for any reason but, I wasn't there... With that said I always have my handgun full loaded with a round in the chamber... You never know what situation you'll be in when the chips are down, I'm not going to count on having both hands available to rack the slide let alone count on myself to rack the slide completely and correctly to not induce an malfunction when I am probably having the worst day of my life..

[gunnails]

As I understood the story no one knows except the guy who survived knows what exactly took place. He was bow hunting so who knows what his experience with guns is, I speculate he had never fired a Glock handgun.
The customer was no doubt rattled with plenty of adrenaline when he went for the gun, maybe he thought the mag release was the safety, maybe he didn't notice the magazine fall, maybe he had in his mind he needed to rack the slide and did so and ejected the round in the chamber?
Maybe the gun was fully loaded?
Sad story and the only thing I know for sure is the guide should of kept the gun on him.

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by GeoJelly

I wish SWF had an unlike button - I would use it for at least one of the comments made above. Poor guy lost his life in Wyoming and the armchair quarterbacks are coming out in force - especially using denigrating terms like "clownshoes". OP wasn't there - and no one else on SWF was there either. We don't know, and probably never will know, all of the circumstances. The guy was trying to make an honest living, and lost his life as the result of making a serious mistake. But, getting up on one's high horse and making disparaging remarks after the fact is in very poor taste IMHO.

So you say that we weren’t there. That we don’t exactly know what happened. Yet you say he made a mistake. Are you sure? Is anyone sure?

If he did indeed make a mistake, he paid the price. IMO a mistake is unforgivable in that environment. You simply do not field dress an animal without being armed.

[LoboGunLeather]

Originally Posted by GeoJelly

I wish SWF had an unlike button - I would use it for at least one of the comments made above. Poor guy lost his life in Wyoming and the armchair quarterbacks are coming out in force - especially using denigrating terms like "clownshoes". OP wasn't there - and no one else on SWF was there either. We don't know, and probably never will know, all of the circumstances. The guy was trying to make an honest living, and lost his life as the result of making a serious mistake. But, getting up on one's high horse and making disparaging remarks after the fact is in very poor taste IMHO.

Very well said.

[jimbo728]

A sad lesson learned, at a terribly high cost.
Jim

[Mrnurse]

I DO NOT carry a 1911 loaded due to design flaw...I rarely carry one as Im convinced the revolver is the best platform for civ usage followed by the Glock... and its many design Cousins.

[imcrazy]

Originally Posted by Mrnurse

I DO NOT carry a 1911 loaded due to design flaw...I rarely carry one as Im convinced the revolver is the best platform for civ usage followed by the Glock... and its many design Cousins.

What design flaw is that? Also whats the point of carrying an unloaded 1911? I carried a 1911 for many years cocked and locked but, I gave up on them a few years ago because I didn't care for the light trigger pull, manual safety, limited capacity & less than great reliability.. I just carry M&P's now...

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by Alk8944

It appears there may have been two guns present, the one "Thrown to the guide" belonging to the client. Possibly the magazine separated from the gun when it struck the ground. It doesn't even mention the guide being armed! We seem to place too much emphasis on what was not said/reported rather than what actually can be confirmed as having happened!

Yes, we rarely get the whole truth in situations like this. I read the story in your link three times. I don't see any indication of a second gun, but maybe I missed something. I do see an indication of a second bear.

Here's the thing, in any news story, it's common that the first report is usually flawed and cleared up in later news. That may be the case here. The info in the later story certainly seems more likely. Since Chubon was from Florida, it's less likely that the handgun was his. That's why I think the later story is more accurate.

Originally Posted by Mrnurse

I DO NOT carry a 1911 loaded due to design flaw...I rarely carry one as Im convinced the revolver is the best platform for civ usage followed by the Glock... and its many design Cousins.

What is the design flaw in the 1911? Since you carry one it can't be that bad.

[TomkinsSP]

I also keep the gas tanks in my vehicles dry. (The gas is in a Jerry can in the trunk.)

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by GeoJelly

The guy was trying to make an honest living, and lost his life as the result of making a serious mistake. But, getting up on one's high horse and making disparaging remarks after the fact is in very poor taste IMHO.

I agree that disparaging remarks are unnecessary. However, I do see the value in discussing the potential cause. The way I see it, this is not so much an attempt to bring the deceased down as it is a discussion on how the rest of us can stay alive.

[stansdds]

This is a real tragedy and, based on what I have read, might not have been fatal had a little better planning and thought processes been used.

The only handgun that I would ever carry with an empty chamber would be any revolver that used the original Colt SAA design. So long as the firing pin is not resting on the primer, I'm carrying with the chamber loaded.

By the way, there is no design flaw in the 1911 that requires carrying with an empty chamber. The 1911 has three safeties, the thumb safety, the grip safety, and the user keeping finger off of the trigger until ready to fire.

[BB57]

Let's look at some facts.

1) The client and guide went out that day to locate an elk the client had shot the day before.

2) A dead elk out over night is likely to attract bear.

3) The guide carried a Glock 20 in a chest holster, but took it off, along with his shirt to avoid getting them dirty.

4) The client was able to retrieve the gun but was unable to get it to fire. He then threw it to the guide, who was being mauled at the time. Somewhere in the process the magazine fell from the pistol. The client then retreated on horseback to an area with cell coverage where he called for help.

5) There is no magazine safety on a Glock, and an ejected magazine would not have prevented a round in the chamber from being fired, but the dropped magazine would have prevented a or another round from being loaded.

6) The guide also carried and deployed bear spray.

7) The guide was found 50 yards uphill about from the initial attack and did not appear to have been drug there. Consequently it's believed by the authorities involved that he survived an initial attack and then was attacked a second time, before or during which he deployed the bear spray.

8) The fatal wound was a puncture to the brain by an incisor after which the coroner believes the victim would not have been able to move, so it likely occurred during the second attack.


Now let's look at some opinions or conclusions based on the facts as they appear:


A) Despite going out to retrieve an elk shot the day before, the client and guide had only a single 10mm Glock 20 handgun between them. That was a major mistake. The client may not have owned a suitable handgun, but his rifle, or a borrowed rifle suitable to the task of defending against a bear attack would have been a really good idea.

B) The guide taking off his Glock 20 to keep it from getting dirty was a serious mistake in priorities. However, it's also par for the course. A bear attack in WY a decade or so ago had a similar scenario, where the guide was mauled but the client was able to retrieve the guide's pistol and kill the bear.

It comes down to weighing risks in the decision making process. It's a near certainty that your holster and pistol in chest holster will get dirty when gutting, caping and quartering an Elk. The risk of a bear attack where you need your pistol on your person is much more remote, even if much more serious in consequence. That type of certainty versus consequence when comparing and assessing relative risks can lead to bad decision making.

C) Much is made of the empty chamber. If the guide was not comfortable holstering, carrying or drawing a Glock in a chest holster, then carrying it in condition 3 makes sense.

Again there was a perceived low but every day risk of an AD and possible injury that was apparently more compelling in the decision making process than the high but very low probability risk of a bear attack and being unable to fire a pistol carried in condition 3 during a bear attack.

However, if that was the case, he probably should have sold it and bought something he was comfortable carrying with a loaded chamber.

D) The biggest impact of the empty chamber was that while the client was able to retrieve the gun, he was unfamiliar with it, and unable to get it to fire. After he was unable to get it to fire, he threw it to the victim. The victim was in the process of getting mauled and probably could not have gotten it into operation anyway, even if the magazine were still in the pistol at that point.

E) The client may have been able to get the pistol in operation had he been briefed how to shoot the Glock and/or on it's condition 3 carry status and the need to rack the slide to make it ready to fire.

A better choice may have been to ensure the client was also armed. Alternatively a revolver would have been a better choice in this particular situation, simply because it's even easier for an untrained person to fire.

F) That said, there's no guarantee the client would have been able to shoot the bear. He noted he had difficulty getting an opening for a clear shot, on top of being unable to get the pistol to fire. It also may have just switched the focus of the attack to the client, resulting in two dead or badly injured victims.

G) It is pretty clear the bear spray, even though it was deployed, was next to useless in this attack.

[keith44spl]

For those of you that have never been in the tall and un-cut, where bears large and small rule the domain.

There's lots of reason to not have a round chambered.

Most back-country travel is done a horseback, carrying a rifle with an empty chamber is common practice.
As accidents can happen to the most safety mined of us.
If ya accidentally shoot yur horse, it is a bad thing indeed.

Sidearms with the hammer resting on an empty chamber is also a long standing practice.

Just because a man doesn't carry lock & loaded in the back country,
like someone might well do back in town, is of little or no concern....

Bears can be and are sneaky SOBs and fast too boot.

This is a sad happenings told of here. It could happen to anyone that ventures into the wilderness.

So be careful and guarded of your comments from the safety of your armchair.
And extra careful while in bear country.

.

I've tangled with a few bears at spitin' distance...And have friends that have as well...

.

[Rastoff]

BB57,
Did you see an article I didn't? I don't remember reading anything about horses or the mag being dropped in either article. I also didn't see anything about being dragged or a coroner's report. Can you link to this info?

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by keith44spl

There's lots of reason to not have a round chambered.

Most back-country travel is done a horseback, carrying a rifle with an empty chamber is common practice.
As accidents can happen to the most safety mined of us.
If ya accidentally shoot yur horse, it is a bad thing indeed.

Yes, shooting your horse accidentally would be bad. Follow the 4 basic rules of gun safety and that won't ever happen.

Originally Posted by keith44spl

Sidearms with the hammer resting on an empty chamber is also a long standing practice.

For an old SAA where the firing pin might be resting on a primer, this is only the right thing to do. Because, when cocked, it rotates a round under the hammer. With every other kind of gun, this is not the case.

Originally Posted by keith44spl

Bears can be and are sneaky SOBs and fast too boot.

This is a sad happenings told of here. It could happen to anyone that ventures into the wilderness.

So, you agree that giving yourself every advantage is a good idea.


I wasn't there, but you can bet your bottom dollar that if I was, and I was carrying, I would have a loaded chamber and I wouldn't set my gun aside.




On another note:
I'm not a hunter. Is is common when bow hunting to kill an animal one day and go back to collect it two days later? That seems strange to me, but, again, I'm not a hunter. Can anyone explain this?

[Rastoff]

Of course you don't need a gun to defend against a bear. However, I don't recommend this method: How one man fought off a Kodiak bear | Shoulders of Giants

[keith44spl]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Yes, shooting your horse accidentally would be bad. Follow the 4 basic rules of gun safety and that won't ever happen.

For an old SAA where the firing pin might be resting on a primer, this is only the right thing to do. Because, when cocked, it rotates a round under the hammer. With every other kind of gun, this is not the case.

So, you agree that giving yourself every advantage is a good idea.


I wasn't there, but you can bet your bottom dollar that if I was, and I was carrying, I would have a loaded chamber and I wouldn't set my gun aside.




On another note:
I'm not a hunter. Is is common when bow hunting to kill an animal one day and go back to collect it two days later? That seems strange to me, but, again, I'm not a hunter. Can anyone explain this?

.
It was the next day.

Jackson Elk Hunting Guide And Client Attacked By Bears, Guide Found Deceased - Buckrail - Jackson Hole, news


"Two hunters were involved in a bear attack Friday, September 14, in the Teton Wilderness while field dressing an elk near Terrace Mountain, approximately 5.8 miles northeast of the Turpin Meadow Trailhead.

Florida resident Corey Chubon shot an elk during a guided bow hunt late Thursday afternoon. He and his guide, Mark Uptain of Martin Outfitters, were unable to locate the wounded animal before nightfall. The pair returned Friday morning to locate and remove the elk. They found the undisturbed carcass in the early afternoon and were preparing to pack out the elk when they were aggressively charged by two large bears."
.

It sounds like or read likes you never been in the back-country of Wyoming and packed out any game...

I would be very surprised if an outfitter would be packing an elk out almost 6 mile on a pack frame....
It generally would take two mules, or that's what I use when packing elk out.

.

That first mule is packin the kitchen...the next two a bull elk quarter'd up, half on each mule.




.

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Yes, shooting your horse accidentally would be bad. Follow the 4 basic rules of gun safety and that won't ever happen.

For an old SAA where the firing pin might be resting on a primer, this is only the right thing to do. Because, when cocked, it rotates a round under the hammer. With every other kind of gun, this is not the case.

So, you agree that giving yourself every advantage is a good idea.


I wasn't there, but you can bet your bottom dollar that if I was, and I was carrying, I would have a loaded chamber and I wouldn't set my gun aside.




On another note:
I'm not a hunter. Is is common when bow hunting to kill an animal one day and go back to collect it two days later? That seems strange to me, but, again, I'm not a hunter. Can anyone explain this?

I can’t explain two days. Doesn’t make sense to me. IMO that makes things more dangerous to go back later on. We dressed our animal, put in a game back and then hung it high up in a tree.

I agree with keith44spl to carry a single action on an empty chamber. However, the man was carrying a Glock in a shoulder holster.

[keith44spl]

According to the Jackson Buckrail news,

Corey Chubon arrowed the elk on Thursday evening late.

Chubon and Uptain returned on Friday to recover the elk...The next day.

I am terribly sorry to hear of this young man losing his life.

As far as the shoulder holster goes, when yur bent over guttin or skinning on the ground,
a pistol dangling in the way makes it kinda hard to work.

I'll just say this and quit. When my crew is dressing game in the field, especially in bear country,
someone stands watch with my 45-70, always.

.
.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by keith44spl

.
It was the next day.

OK, the next day. Is that a common practice? All the hunters I know around here dress the animal the same day and pack it out then. I agree with Kanewpadle, going back the next day makes it just that much more dangerous.

I haven't spent any time hunting in that area or using mules to pack a kill out. However, every hunter I know, usually dresses out the animal right there.

So, I ask again, is this a common practice?

[amazingflapjack]

In stressful/immediate circumstances (sudden attack) I prefer a revolver. If you preparing to "repel boarders" in Marine parlance, then everything else is acceptable for me. Too many possible factors with a pistol in my view.

[keith44spl]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

OK, the next day. Is that a common practice? All the hunters I know around here dress the animal the same day and pack it out then. I agree with Kanewpadle, going back the next day makes it just that much more dangerous.

I haven't spent any time hunting in that area or using mules to pack a kill out. However, every hunter I know, usually dresses out the animal right there.

So, I ask again, is this a common practice?

The news report said they, Chubon and Uptain did not or could not locate the elk on Thursday evening as darkness fell.

It's very common to recover game the next day in the back country....

The guide takes the client out, they leave before daylite and travel miles from camp.
If lucky, kill what ever they are hunting for. If in the afternoon or late evening,
you will have to return to camp to retrieve pack frames to pack the game out on foot or pack mules or horses, etc....

So, yes sometimes it is going to be the next day or so.


A personal friend of mine that outfitted/guided out of Cody, had one of his guide jumped by a bear while readying an elk to be packed out. He survived.

It's just a hard way to die, I'd say.

.

[sigp220.45]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

OK, the next day. Is that a common practice? All the hunters I know around here dress the animal the same day and pack it out then. I agree with Kanewpadle, going back the next day makes it just that much more dangerous.

I haven't spent any time hunting in that area or using mules to pack a kill out. However, every hunter I know, usually dresses out the animal right there.

So, I ask again, is this a common practice?

The guy shot it in the late afternoon, and they didn't find it.

"He and his guide, Mark Uptain of Martin Outfitters, were unable to locate the wounded animal before nightfall. The pair returned Friday morning to locate and remove the elk. "

They went back the next day and found it.

It doesn't make much sense to look for an elk after dark. No streetlights out there.

[CB3]

Wyoming allows an an elk archery hunter to carry a firearm during the archery season. An out of state big game hunter must have a licensed guide.

There is some inference in the article that the guide service needs to update is guidelines for guides for bear protection.

Going on to find a big game kill more than 12 hours after it might have died in bear country is an absolute recipe for a bear encounter. If this Florida bow hunter was unfamiliar with guns, he should have been provided with a point and shoot solution with a little training.

The guide should have flat out known better how to prevent this.

BTW, one of the things you pay a guide to do is field dress your kill. That would mean the bow hunter should have been the primary watcher/armed guard. Again, as a guide, this would elevate my preparation and awareness.

With bears, some times shxt happens, but it appears these two were not sufficiently prepared. That is primarily the guide’s responsibility. He’s the professional getting paid to do things right. Protecting life is job #1.

Pepper spray is recommended by WY F&G and required in some areas. It’s use requires a relatively close distance to the attack. Not everyone has the stones to rush within 15 feet of two bears attacking a human and spray them, although it looks like this hunter may have (successfully?) done so. Unfortunately, the fatal bite had already been delivered by the time the bears left, perhaps with eyes and lungs burning.

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by keith44spl

According to the Jackson Buckrail news,

Corey Chubon arrowed the elk on Thursday evening late.

Chubon and Uptain returned on Friday to recover the elk...The next day.

I am terribly sorry to hear of this young man losing his life.

As far as the shoulder holster goes, when yur bent over guttin or skinning on the ground,
a pistol dangling in the way makes it kinda hard to work.

I'll just say this and quit. When my crew is dressing game in the field, especially in bear country,
someone stands watch with my 45-70, always.

.
.

I’m not claiming that what we did or how we did it was the way everyone should. My ole man was very insistent that we do things a certain way.

We also always had someone standing guard. We were lucky I guess that we never lost track of our kill. We planned ahead and scouted the area days before. The advantage we had is that we hunted by boat. Once the kill was dressed, all we had to do was take it back to the boat which was never more than a mile or two away.

I agree the shoulder holster can be a pain. I carried a Smith M57 for a few years and never had a problem. But I know others that did. A few years later someone developed the chest holster which was much better in all regards.

[SC_Mike]

" did not have a round in the chamber and the guide had taken the pistol off "

Two errors, IMHO, that proved to be fatal.


Thoughts and prayers to the family and friends.

[Old cop]

Originally Posted by Doug M.

One of many here Fatal Wyoming bear attack: No round in the chamber on handgun - Guns.com.

There is no excuse for carrying that manner under any conditions, with the possible exception of carrying a cheap substandard firearm because that is all that one can afford. Other than that, this will only happen with people whose training (if they have any) is unacceptable. There are other examples of complacency and bad training here. (He took it off? WTH?) Note that among the entities investigating this were Wyoming's OSHA. If there is a decent regulatory structure there, the company will be hammered brutally for allowing such conduct. It will also likely have real liability to the survivors of the decedent.

If you are someone who carries in that manner, or advocates for it, lose your clownshoes, improve your mindset, and get some real training, or get away from firearms. If you are an employer who has armed employees going into harm's way, and are not mandating valid training and sound conduct with serious consequences for violations, it's time to reconsider that stupidity and change your practices.

I advise people who are not comfortable carrying w/a loaded chamber to get a revolver and forget a semi auto. There’s a reason the police do not carry w/an empty chamber.

[Duckford]

I think its more proof that the whole "auto loaders are universally superior to revolvers, let's dump all revolvers into the sea because they are 100% obsolete" is nonsense. Modern double action revolvers are carried with full chambers, even a single action revolves to a full chamber when carried with an empty chamber. Most of all the Glock lost its magazine, I have yet to hear a revolver lose its cylinder and have it fly out into the snow. Its not merely Monday morning quarterbacking, its probably a situation of facts where a revolver would have had a much greater chance of survival outcomes than an auto loader. A high grade revolver would have managed to prevent both problems that occurred 1. empty chamber 2. lost magazine.

The idea that an auto loader is better than a revolver is not a fact, its an idea. For bear defense or survival, its beyond me why anyone in their right mind would choose an auto loader anything handgun over a trustworthy revolver. Some would say "Well, a 10mm has been used to stop moose and bear before" well, here's a situation where it very well may have lead to failure to stop that ended in death.

[GeoJelly]

I was thinking about this story twice today while out walking. Up front, I have no qualifications, per se, to back up my comments. I grew up many, many years ago next to a big mountain range in Wyoming, but have only seen grizzlies twice. I have decided I would have also carried a Glock if I were in his situation, but with some caveats. I would carry a Glock 32 in .357 Sig - with a round in the chamber. But I would use, or would have used, my favorite Glock accessory, a Safe-t-blok. It takes less than a second to flick the block out of the trigger guard while making the pistol safer to carry, IMO. He prolly could not afford more training. This guy had, IIRC, five kids and he was 29 years old. He simply did not have the money to pay reserve captain Massad Ayoob (sp?) $50 an hour, or more, to spin him up on the latest tactics, techniques and procedures. I can only speculate that he carried his Glock chamber-empty to avoid an AD. I think he prolly had some valid reasons for that concern - one of which is the fact that there is very limited, if any, cell coverage up in the mountains. So, if he did have an AD, and he or someone else were bleeding profusely, or worse, there is no such thing as calling in a life flight. Someone would have to hike out closer to the highway where they might might get cell coverage. This might be one of the reasons he carried chamber-empty. One other comment on chamber-empty carry, he had young kids at home so that may have been one of his other considerations.

As far as the Glock 32 and .357 Sig, there was a well-publicized grizzly stop, and kill, in Alaska in the last year or so. In that case, the shooter was carrying a Smith 3953 and it stopped the bear. .357 Sig would have even more penetration ability than 9mm hardball (which I believe that shooter was carrying). Another theoretical benefit of .357 Sig is reduced chances for a feedway stoppage given the shape of the bottleneck round. Last, but not least, a Glock 32 is a little bit smaller and lighter than a Glock 20, which would help a lot when you’re walking, who knows, 20+ miles per day.

[Doug M.]

Ok, so I sound harsh. I'm not talking about the kind of mistake that can be overcome - if I screw up cooking, or typing something at work, no one will die or be seriously injured. Referring to this kind of poor performance in a situation with a significant risk of death or great bodily harm in a harsh manner is simply acknowledging the seriousness. Anyone who has seen an LE or military AAR of things that went really wrong knows they can be unpleasant ... but if we fail to learn from the preventable errors of others that have already resulted in very bad things, we are compounding the tragedy.

I don't care a lot what people carry for personal defense, whether against "humans" or big dangerous critters. However, they do not have the options of having less than adequate skill, which has to start with mindset. In this case, the state OSHA folks made some findings as it is reported in the article I cite. That's a big fat hairy deal, and what we call a "clue" in police work. While in many ways training is a personal obligation, in this case, the employer had an obligation, apparently both moral and legal, to ensure that the employee was prepared. The information available indicates he was not. This should be a high 5 to 6 figure penalty against the employer for the safety violation, and there is a real possibility of a staggering civil judgment in favor of the guide's survivors.

If he was not comfortable with carrying the striker fired pistol with a round chambered (which is not based in objectivity; Glock NDs are a shooter problem not a platform problem), he either needed better training, or to carry something else with which he was proficient and comfortable.

The statement that Dave Keith made about someone standing guard during such work with his .45-70 is also a clue. I don't have his experience, not even close, so I will defer to his knowledge and suggest everyone else does. A man died. Another man more or less watched helplessly - and has to live with that. 5 kids don't have a Dad. Other friends and family will never see him again. It did not have to happen, and happened as a result of a collection of circumstances that should not have existed. There is no gentle way to address the kind of error that ended up with this result.

I have seen needless death of other sorts from various forms of complacency. It angers me. I use them as examples in some of my teaching. If people have to be offended a bit to overcome their unsound thinking, so be it. I hope I never become so weak and unethical that the feelings of anyone are so important that I can't justify doing whatever is necessary to teach them not to do whatever unsound thing they are doing.

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by GeoJelly

I was thinking about this story twice today while out walking. Up front, I have no qualifications, per se, to back up my comments. I grew up many, many years ago next to a big mountain range in Wyoming, but have only seen grizzlies twice. I have decided I would have also carried a Glock if I were in his situation, but with some caveats. I would carry a Glock 32 in .357 Sig - with a round in the chamber. But I would use, or would have used, my favorite Glock accessory, a Safe-t-blok. It takes less than a second to flick the block out of the trigger guard while making the pistol safer to carry, IMO. Oh, and please spare us from the “needs more training” comments. This guy had, IIRC, five kids and he was 29 years old. He simply did not have the money to pay reserve captain Massad Ayoob (sp?) $50 an hour, or more, to spin him up on the latest tactics, techniques and procedures. I can only speculate that he carried his Glock chamber-empty to avoid an AD. I think he prolly had some valid reasons for that concern - one of which is the fact that there is very limited, if any, cell coverage up in the mountains. So, if he did have an AD, and he or someone else were bleeding profusely, or worse, there is no such thing as calling in a life flight. Someone would have to hike out closer to the highway where they might might get cell coverage. This might be one of the reasons he carried chamber-empty. One other comment on chamber-empty carry, he had young kids at home so that may have been one of his other considerations.

As far as the Glock 32 and .357 Sig, there was a well-publicized grizzly stop, and kill, in Alaska in the last year or so. In that case, the shooter was carrying a Smith 3953 and it stopped the bear. .357 Sig would have even more penetration ability than 9mm hardball (which I believe that shooter was carrying). Another theoretical benefit of .357 Sig is reduced chances for a feedway stoppage given the shape of the bottleneck round. Last, but not least, a Glock 32 is a little bit smaller and lighter than a Glock 20, which would help a lot when you’re walking, who knows, 20+ miles per day.

I won’t disparage your choice of caliber however, with big game, heavy, hard, and fast works better. There are never any guarantees.

I carried a 41 magnum and a 44 mag. I considered the 41 a little light for the job but it’s all I had. We always had a 12 ga with slugs or a 45-70. An old timer that sometime accompanied us carried a 10ga with slugs.

The point isn’t the hardware used but what went on between the ears. Hunting isn’t supposed to be easy or convenient. You do what you have to, to survive.

I’m sorry the man died through an unfortunate series of events but I believe they should have been better prepared.

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by Doug M.

Ok, so I sound harsh. I'm not talking about the kind of mistake that can be overcome - if I screw up cooking, or typing something at work, no one will die or be seriously injured. Referring to this kind of poor performance in a situation with a significant risk of death or great bodily harm in a harsh manner is simply acknowledging the seriousness. Anyone who has seen an LE or military AAR of things that went really wrong knows they can be unpleasant ... but if we fail to learn from the preventable errors of others that have already resulted in very bad things, we are compounding the tragedy.

I don't care a lot what people carry for personal defense, whether against "humans" or big dangerous critters. However, they do not have the options of having less than adequate skill, which has to start with mindset. In this case, the state OSHA folks made some findings as it is reported in the article I cite. That's a big fat hairy deal, and what we call a "clue" in police work. While in many ways training is a personal obligation, in this case, the employer had an obligation, apparently both moral and legal, to ensure that the employee was prepared. The information available indicates he was not. This should be a high 5 to 6 figure penalty against the employer for the safety violation, and there is a real possibility of a staggering civil judgment in favor of the guide's survivors.

If he was not comfortable with carrying the striker fired pistol with a round chambered (which is not based in objectivity; Glock NDs are a shooter problem not a platform problem), he either needed better training, or to carry something else with which he was proficient and comfortable.

The statement that Dave Keith made about someone standing guard during such work with his .45-70 is also a clue. I don't have his experience, not even close, so I will defer to his knowledge and suggest everyone else does. A man died. Another man more or less watched helplessly - and has to live with that. 5 kids don't have a Dad. Other friends and family will never see him again. It did not have to happen, and happened as a result of a collection of circumstances that should not have existed. There is no gentle way to address the kind of error that ended up with this result.

I have seen needless death of other sorts from various forms of complacency. It angers me. I use them as examples in some of my teaching. If people have to be offended a bit to overcome their unsound thinking, so be it. I hope I never become so weak and unethical that the feelings of anyone are so important that I can't justify doing whatever is necessary to teach them not to do whatever unsound thing they are doing.

This has been my point all along. You said it better however.

I wasn’t there. I’m no expert. I grew up hunting Alaska and have been back many times.

Every year there are stories of people that get attacked or killed because they were unprepared. This angers me also because they should have been. And usually the bear pays the price for mans stupidity. We invade their territory unprepared and they pay for it.

People do all sorts of things they shouldn’t do when out in the wild. They either don’t care or get complacent.

[keith44spl]

What I know is from first hand experience....This is one of several.

The big bears....

We....My son, another feller and myself were camped 'bout 3 hours by bush plane north west of Anchorage.

First day, watch sow with cubs digging ground squirrels, she was fast and a coulpe thousand yards away.
Second day, glass a lone bear a mile or so way....Kill a couple of caribou.
Bone out meat, sack it up in pillow cases to keep flies off. Cashe meat on hill a couple hundred yards from camp.

Late evening of the third day, just about sun down. One of the boys sez, that ol sow and them cubs are right here in camp.
It was our good luck, that that she bear collected her share of the meat from the hill and went on about her rat-killin'.

Evening of the forth day, the boys kill another couple of caribou, it was late so we gutted em and would wait till morning to work em up and pack them the half mile back to camp.

The next morning as we approached the kill site, we could see where a bear had cleaned up the gut piles and drug a whole carcass off into the willows.
That 300 Weatherby felt like a skint sapling in my hands...That lesson, caused me to carry a 45-70 along on my future jaunts.

Later that afternoon we glassed that boar covering up our kill just like it was his own...I guess, he made it his own.

Carrying a heavy handgun is comforting for the mind...

For me, if'n a grab up a roll of TP and take a stroll into the willows to have a lit'l talk with the Governor...

I take the '86 along for good measure.

But that's jest me talking here.


.

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by keith44spl

What I know is from first hand experience....This is one of several.

The big bears....

We....My son, another feller and myself were camped 'bout 3 hours by bush plane north west of Anchorage.

First day, watch sow with cubs digging ground squirrels, she was fast and a coulpe thousand yards away.
Second day, glass a lone bear a mile or so way....Kill a couple of caribou.
Bone out meat, sack it up in pillow cases to keep flies off. Cashe meat on hill a couple hundred yards from camp.

Late evening of the third day, just about sun down. One of the boys sez, that ol sow and them cubs are right here in camp.
It was our good luck, that that she bear collected her share of the meat from the hill and went on about her rat-killin'.

Evening of the forth day, the boys kill another couple of caribou, it was late so we gutted em and would wait till morning to work em up and pack them the half mile back to camp.

The next morning as we approached the kill site, we could see where a bear had cleaned up the gut piles and drug a whole carcass off into the willows.
That 300 Weatherby felt like a skint sapling in my hands...That lesson, caused me to carry a 45-70 along on my future jaunts.

Later that afternoon we glassed that boar covering up our kill just like it was his own...I guess, he made it his own.

Carrying a heavy handgun is comforting for the mind...

For me, if'n a grab up a roll of TP and take a stroll into the willows to have a lit'l talk with the Governor...

I take the '86 along for good measure.

But that's jest me talking here.


.

Back in the 70’s the state of Alaska gave away a bunch of land. All we has to do was stake it and file a claim. We built a cabin on a tributary off a major river. Best king salmon fishing there was.

Little did we know that we built our cabin right next to a game trail. A 12ga with slugs was always carried. Moose and bear always present. Until hunting season that is.

Never had to shoot one thankfully but we were close several times. The bear just wanted to do some fishing.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by Doug M.

I hope I never become so weak and unethical that the feelings of anyone are so important that I can't justify doing whatever is necessary to teach them not to do whatever unsound thing they are doing.

I'm highlighting this from Doug M. because it needs to be said again and not buried in a post.

This is a large problem with people today. They're so busy having their feelings hurt, they aren't learning simple life lessons. The off shoot of that is that other people, who should know better, are couching what they say/teach in order to not hurt feelings. This needs to stop.

Yes, it's a horrible thing that this guide died. Yes, it's horrible that his children don't have a father now and his wife is a widow. So, let's get past that and learn how not to be the next victim.

[Protected One]

Originally Posted by keith44spl

For those of you that have never been in the tall and un-cut, where bears large and small rule the domain.

There's lots of reason to not have a round chambered.

Most back-country travel is done a horseback, carrying a rifle with an empty chamber is common practice.
As accidents can happen to the most safety mined of us.
If ya accidentally shoot yur horse, it is a bad thing indeed.

Sidearms with the hammer resting on an empty chamber is also a long standing practice.

Just because a man doesn't carry lock & loaded in the back country,
like someone might well do back in town, is of little or no concern....

Bears can be and are sneaky SOBs and fast too boot.

This is a sad happenings told of here. It could happen to anyone that ventures into the wilderness.

So be careful and guarded of your comments from the safety of your armchair.
And extra careful while in bear country.

.

I've tangled with a few bears at spitin' distance...And have friends that have as well...

.

I am admittedly one of those who has never been "in the tall and un-cut, where bears large and small rule the domain" - other than driving through. Yet still, none of your reasons for carrying on an empty chamber are applicable to this story. There was no rifle involved, nor side arm with a hammer, and the fact that bears can be sneaky and fast seems more like a reason TO have a round already in the chamber.

From reading the story it seems the guide made a worse mistake than the swiss hang-gliding instructor who forgot to attach his customers harness to the glider and almost cost him his life.

[keith44spl]

Originally Posted by Protected One

I am admittedly one of those who has never been "in the tall and un-cut, where bears large and small rule the domain" - other than driving through. Yet still, none of your reasons for carrying on an empty chamber are applicable to this story. There was no rifle involved, nor side arm with a hammer, and the fact that bears can be sneaky and fast seems more like a reason TO have a round already in the chamber.

From reading the story it seems the guide made a worse mistake than the swiss hang-gliding instructor who forgot to attach his customers harness to the glider and almost cost him his life.

I have a somewhat minut grasp of your reasoning as to this catastrophe.

I've work and hunted with long time guides in the Bob Marshall Wilderness area of Montana
where grizzly bears are plentiful, that didn't carry a sidearm nor a long gun when guiding.

There could be a number of reasons Uptain didn't have a cartridge chambered in his pistol,
I don't know why folks do some of the things they do.

But, I know the reasons that I may carry with an empty chamber, (of course I wouldn't carry an
automatic pistol in to the back country in the first place), but that's just me.
Hunting the Greater Yellowstone Region isn't handgun territory in my opinion.

I sometimes suspect that the complacency of never having a close encounter of the life and or
death kind causes one to let their guard down in the bush, as well as in the city.

So, as to Mr. Uptain's reasons for the way he chose to carry his pistol, we may never know.

I have found in this life, that not everyone that carries a handgun is a handgun man.
Not everyone trusts their own abilities.
So, some may chose to err on the greater side of safety, than be half cocked and ready ready.

No matter the state of readiness, sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you.

It is certainly a mystery to me why a lot of folks do the things they do....and say, even on this forum.

And with that being said, there's several here abouts on this forum, that I would not

venture into the hills with them carrying a firearm of any kind with a loaded chamber.

And there is others here, that I would trust with the lives of my grandchildren.


.