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Old 08-22-2016, 11:48 AM
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Default LEOSA: Qualifications and Covered Firearms

Here in NC, if one doesn't qualify with their old agency, (my former outfit doesn't get involved), we must qualify with a state certified range officer who is authorized to administer qualifications to law enforcement officers.

In my case, I qualify with the local sheriff's office and then send in a notarized form with my scores, (both day and night), as well as a copy of my retired creds and a money order to the NC DOJ which sends me back a card certifying my LEOSA qualification, the applicable dates and the firearms qualified with (but not their serial numbers).

In the following article by James M. Baranowski, Esq. of the NRA-ILA, he maintains that as long as the qualification for the firearms is the same, one can properly carry any handgun, whether pistol or revolver, even if it is not one of the firearms that the retired LEO qualified with:

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As the legislative history, statute, and case law make clear, if you qualify on one type of firearm, you can carry any firearm of that type under LEOSA. Accordingly, qualifying with a handgun enables you to carry any handgun under LEOSA, be it pistol or revolver. No separate qualification is necessary unless the state or agency has a different qualification standard for it.
Was curious whether other LEO's and instructors agree that this is the case...or, alternatively, believe that only the specific model of firearm qualified with is covered.

Thanks in advance for sharing your experience.
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Old 08-22-2016, 01:51 PM
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I could be wrong here but I seem to recall that you were required to qualify with the type of firearm you carried on duty or with a "substantially similar" firearm.
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Old 08-22-2016, 02:02 PM
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I could be wrong here but I seem to recall that you were required to qualify with the type of firearm you carried on duty or with a "substantially similar" firearm.
Don't know either, there seems to be so much misinformation out there...but in my own case I qualified with the exact firearms I carried back then.
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Old 08-22-2016, 02:04 PM
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Yes, that is correct. Here in KS we have constitutional carry, and were it not for certain portions of state law that reward LEOSA permit holders, I would most likely not qualify yearly. Under KS law a LEOSA permit holder can carry anywhere a full time officer can carry. You can carry whatever type of firearm you qualify with under LEOSA. If you wish to carry both a semi-auto & revolver, you must qualify with each yearly. That is how my Sheriff's Office interprets the law, and thus is their policy.

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Old 08-22-2016, 03:43 PM
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Default Not true.

This is NOT correct. Nowhere in LEOSA is there any language remotely relating to your statement.

Be safe.

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I could be wrong here but I seem to recall that you were required to qualify with the type of firearm you carried on duty or with a "substantially similar" firearm.
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Old 08-22-2016, 03:55 PM
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Default Many disagree.

For a fact, the Maryland Police and Corrections Training Commission (by whom many former LEO's are qualified in the great state of Maryland) does not agree with Baranowski's opinion.

When first I qualified we were given the option of qualifying with a semi-automatic, a revolver, or both. However, when the 'night fire' component was added to the qualification course there was not sufficient time to qualify with both types of handguns. Accordingly, shooters must select what specific type they want to carry per LEOSA. I choose a revolver...and can carry ANY make/model/caliber revolver.

My LEOSA creds state 'Weapon Type: Revolver.'

Be safe.

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Here in NC, if one doesn't qualify with their old agency, (my former outfit doesn't get involved), we must qualify with a state certified range officer who is authorized to administer qualifications to law enforcement officers.

In my case, I qualify with the local sheriff's office and then send in a notarized form with my scores, (both day and night), as well as a copy of my retired creds and a money order to the NC DOJ which sends me back a card certifying my LEOSA qualification, the applicable dates and the firearms qualified with (but not their serial numbers).

In the following article by James M. Baranowski, Esq. of the NRA-ILA, he maintains that as long as the qualification for the firearms is the same, one can properly carry any handgun, whether pistol or revolver, even if it is not one of the firearms that the retired LEO qualified with:



Was curious whether other LEO's and instructors agree that this is the case...or, alternatively, believe that only the specific model of firearm qualified with is covered.

Thanks in advance for sharing your experience.
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Old 08-22-2016, 04:01 PM
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Thanks, Big D. When I read Baranowski's article my antennae went up as it didn't seem to be in line with my understanding.

On my card, in addition to all the certification mumbo jumbo it says:

Quote:
The person named on the face of this card has qualified with the handguns listed below in accordance with NC GS 17C-6(A) and 12 NCAD 09H:

Glock Model 26
Glock Model 19
Based upon that I'd only feel reasonably certain of being covered for any Glock 26 or 19. (But I'd like Baranowski to be correct if I had my druthers.)
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Old 08-22-2016, 04:25 PM
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We were told (VA) that if we qualify w/a semi auto we must carry a semi auto, and if we want to carry a revolver we must qualify w/a revolver. Last year a different range officer told us we could carry either a revolver OR a semi auto regardless of what we shot the course with. My own reading of LEOSA tells me we must carry a weapon of SIMILAR TYPE to what we shot the course with. Since I used my Glock 17 I'm required to carry a semi auto, so I stay with my M&P .380 or my LCP.

UPDATE: Qualified LEOSA, 98.7%, at my former agency on 7/6/17 and the new interpertation is I can carry a revolver even if I qualify w/a semi auto. The card we are issued, to go w/our retired creds, does not identify which weapon was used to qualify. Lucked into a brand new 340PD and have been carrying that instead of the LCP.
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Old 08-22-2016, 06:29 PM
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I qualify in New Mexico at my old department. I have the choice of qualifying with revolver or auto or both. However my credentials (they issue new one each time we qual) do not specify what I qualified with.

Bottom line, regardless of what the NRA or the feds say, LEOSA is managed by each state and they may or may not have different rules we have to abide by.
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Old 08-22-2016, 07:11 PM
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"In the following article by James M. Baranowski, Esq. of the NRA-ILA, he maintains that as long as the qualification for the firearms is the same, one can properly carry any handgun, whether pistol or revolver, even if it is not one of the firearms that the retired LEO qualified with"

This is the current stance taken by our range officers. In the past three years, they would put a small sticker on the back of our retiree credentials stating simply "Firearms qualified expires (month and year) and the range phone number. However this year they also issued a small card that reads...

"The person presenting this card is a retired Memphis Police Officer. According to federal law(Law Enforcement Safety Act 2005 18 USC 926C He/She is authorized to be armed and carry his/her service weapon at all times in all 50 states. This federal law supersedes all state/local laws to the contrary."

However I must note that since we are retirees and no longer employed, we can carry anything between .380 and .45 and have it entered on the books as our service weapon, we're not mandated to carry dept issue anymore. The range officers have all of my currently owned weapons listed as a service weapon so it's all good.
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Old 08-22-2016, 10:15 PM
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Here is a link to the Texas form A retired Federal or out of state officer submits for a Texas Retired Qualifications card.

https://tcole.texas.gov/sites/defaul...l_firearms.pdf

You will note there is no space anywhere that asks for the firearm type or other information.
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Old 08-22-2016, 11:32 PM
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Default Both Revolvers And Auto Pistols Are Rquired Here

Here in my neck of the woods in upstate New York, we are required to shoot both types of handguns to be covered fully. We have asked the same thing about one type (handgun) covers all, and the instructors say we have to shoot both or only the type qualified with will be listed on our HR-218 card. I don't mind doing both, but it is expensive. One good thing about this qualification is that it exempts us LEO'S from NYS permit laws, and if/when the law changes here in New York State on Jan 1st, 2018 and the state takes over the pistol permit system, and rumored limits of X amount of handguns that can be owned/possessed on one's permit becomes law, we as LEO'S can keep what we have, and not have to surrender any revolver or auto pistol over the limit as long as we maintain our certification.
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Old 08-23-2016, 02:37 AM
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Leosa can be a quirky critter. When I arrived here in the Keystone State you were pretty much on your own so to speak. The local Sheriff allowed me to shoot with his agency as I was a County employee but did not issue me any paperwork as there was none from the state at that time. He assured me he would vouch for me should the need arise and he was and is a good man and his voracity was not in question. I fired a semi auto and carried same.
Shortly thereafter, I was referred to a small local PD as the Sheriff's Office qualified at a State Prison's range and I would not be able to go as I wasn't a certified Leo. Liability you see. I shot with the small PD and used both a revolver and semi auto and wrote my own version of a permission slip and the range officer certified same and I carried that with me. My state had not as yet come up with a program.
Several years later, that PD's range officer wasn't doing it and I was unable to secure another to do the same so I shot in NY state when a sympathetic NYPD Sgt. retired took me so I was legal. I shot a revolver and a semi auto and was clear to use any or both no matter the caliber's. I saw a retired NYSP Trooper use a Ruger MkII to shoot his course. He advised it was cheaper so he used it. I didn't blame him.
MY state finally got it's stuff together and came up with state recognized firearms instructors who could qualify us old guys and when we did we had to shoot each and every weapon we intended to carry under LEOSA and all of this was forwarded to Harrisburg and a card was issued by the instructor to the retiree stating you qualified in essence and you had to go see the Sheriff and pay your 5 clams and you were set.
I just shot a month ago and was advised by the LEOSA qualified instructor that I only need shoot one semi auto or one revolver and that would cover me for any other weapon of similar type. Good by me.
I was advised in a class taught by an attorney who specialized in LEOSA that it was HIS recommendation that if you will be carrying under LEOSA that you use a weapon that is on your former agency's list of approved firearms and preferable loaded with your former agency's duty ammunition. He was very specific if you were an active officer to follow the aforementioned advice. LEOSA,....... to quote The Grateful Dead,. What a long strange trip it's been.

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Old 08-23-2016, 06:39 AM
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As I understand it, LEOSA is basically a federal law that exempts qualified individuals from state and local laws pertaining to carrying a firearm. There are still places we can't carry, such as aircraft, properly marked public buildings, schools, etc. As far as qualification and firearms permitted, this is determined by the department conducting the qualification. LEOSA requires that we shoot an authorized qualification course. My agency only requires that I shoot the off-duty/back-up weapon course with both revolver and semi-auto, if I want to carry either. I shoot 45 cal for both and I can carry any revolver or semi-auto up to and including 45 cal.
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Old 08-23-2016, 09:15 AM
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Great discussion, gents, I truly appreciate all the contributions.

I just received an email back from the gentleman who administers the LEOSA certifications here in NC. Here is the text of his reply:

Quote:
LEOSA law indicates that the retiree must firearm qualify under the State’s in service law enforcement officers in service firearm qualification rules. NC in service law enforcement officer firearm qualification states that each officer must firearm qualify with every firearm they will carry off duty, thus so does the retiree. If you would like, you may contact the AG’s legal liaison for an official explanation, 919.716.6725
Grammar and structure aside, the portion I put in bold above makes it clear that active NC LEOs must qualify with any firearm they intend to carry off duty and therefore so must any retiree qualifying for concealed carry under LEOSA.

Fortunately for me I qualified with the two guns I planned on carrying.

That said, whether or not one would be in violation of LEOSA for carrying a firearm outside of NC in a state which has less stringent LEOSA requirements (but which was not qualified with in NC) is a test case I don't think I want to be the guinea pig for.

Bottom line is that if I purchase another firearm here in NC for concealed carry...I'll have to bring it to the range and qualify with it specifically to add it to the two I already have on my current LEOSA card.

Please feel free to keep the discussion going. Knowledge is power and hopefully, in this case, a shield.

(But I'm still glad I purchased the FEDS LEOSA PLI policy just in case.)
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Old 08-23-2016, 09:51 AM
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I qualify in New Mexico at my old department. I have the choice of qualifying with revolver or auto or both. However my credentials (they issue new one each time we qual) do not specify what I qualified with.

Bottom line, regardless of what the NRA or the feds say, LEOSA is managed by each state and they may or may not have different rules we have to abide by
.
That sounds right. A good friend of mine now living in Northern NY was a retired LEO from another state.

Some of his qualifying criteria kinda made me say WOW!

He was allowed to qualify with a model 28 6'' shooting target wad cutters. Time limits were Rip Van Winkle approved.

I'm not a LEO or a LEO knocker but I would think you should be shooting a REALISTIC concealable gun with real save your butt ammo to be LEOSA certified!

I have a unrestricted permit (since early 70s) and the new county judge here in this people republic type state is now ALLOWING many people to upgrade to get a unrestricted permit. The shooting that must be done to get this "privilege" are a heck of a lot more stringent that what my X cop buddy had to do.

FWIW I have not had to certify for unrestricted YET as my permit is real old and more or less grandfathered in. I can pass a realistic hard course of fire with a concealable gun with real ammo if the powers to be demanded it. Best bet I would use my 1911.45 and/or my 15 2'' with right ammo carried in a IWBH
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Old 08-23-2016, 12:46 PM
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That sounds right. A good friend of mine now living in Northern NY was a retired LEO from another state.

Some of his qualifying criteria kinda made me say WOW!

He was allowed to qualify with a model 28 6'' shooting target wad cutters. Time limits were Rip Van Winkle approved.

I'm not a LEO or a LEO knocker but I would think you should be shooting a REALISTIC concealable gun with real save your butt ammo to be LEOSA certified!

I have a unrestricted permit (since early 70s) and the new county judge here in this people republic type state is now ALLOWING many people to upgrade to get a unrestricted permit. The shooting that must be done to get this "privilege" are a heck of a lot more stringent that what my X cop buddy had to do.

FWIW I have not had to certify for unrestricted YET as my permit is real old and more or less grandfathered in. I can pass a realistic hard course of fire with a concealable gun with real ammo if the powers to be demanded it. Best bet I would use my 1911.45 and/or my 15 2'' with right ammo carried in a IWBH
**Words of Concern** The NYS Police are taking over the state pistol permit system on Jan 01, 2018. Every permit holder will have to recertify their permits. There will be no more individual counties making decisions regarding who can have what type of permit, it will all be done at the state level.
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Old 08-24-2016, 10:30 AM
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In Illinois we qualify at state certified ranges with state certified range masters. If you want to carry both a revolver and a semi-auto, you must qualify with both. On the state-issued ROCC card (Retired Officer Concealed Carry) it states "Revolver" "Semiautomatic" if you qualified with both, and one or the other if you qualified with one. No other restrictions. Revolver qualification means you can carry a revolver and semiauto qualification means you can carry a semiauto and both means you can carry either or both. Over the years I have qualified with everything from a Kel-Tec .32 auto to a S&W Model 29. (Usually, I use my Mod 60 or 66 and a Star PD, but sometimes I like to be different!)
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Old 08-24-2016, 10:37 AM
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Pretty wide divergence on how individual states handle the LEOSA program.

While I wish that NC's regs would allow the same latitude that Retired Chief receives in IL, I guess I can't kick much. NC's policy is pretty much the same policy we had to follow for off duty carry when I was still on the job. You have to qualify with what you intend to carry.

I have an open invitation to shoot with the Sheriff's Dept so that's not a problem. The biggest issue would be having to send a new affidavit to the state and (probably) pay a new fee to get an amended card listing the added firearm(s).
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Old 08-24-2016, 12:14 PM
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My department sets up a qualification day (usually a couple, for those who can't make one or the other) annually. All of us old, decrepit retirees go and have a bit of a reunion. It's surprising how many of us from a department of 80 sworn that there are now. Anyway, I digress. We are issued our department retired ID, which is printed "CCW APPROVED" or not. There aren't many who are not approved, unless they retired medically for stress or other psychological conditions. The ID card is good for 5 years. However, the ID card is also printed with a statement that says that the holder is qualified to carry the guns listed on our annual qualification card. It contains the inclusive dates and slots for four handguns per card. We can get as many cards as we need, meaning that we have to qualify with every handgun we intend to carry.

For me, that's been a mix of revolvers and semis (usually a total of 8 to 10). This year, I plan to cut back to four, having figured out what I really carry after two years of being retired. I'll have the following: 340 M&P, 640-2, Glock 26 and a Shield .45, once I get one.
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Old 08-24-2016, 12:17 PM
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Here in Arizona, you can qualify with either a pistol or a revolver or both. Pistol, revolver or both will be on your LEOSA card. You can only carry the type you qualified in, it doesn't have to be the actual gun , but the type. If seems here in Arizona a certified NRA instructor can give the AZPost test as long as he puts you through the proper qualification course of fire and signs that he gave you the AZPOST course. I've never had to qualify with a NRA instructor yet as the local PD s are really good with LEOSA.
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Old 08-24-2016, 12:27 PM
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**Words of Concern** The NYS Police are taking over the state pistol permit system on Jan 01, 2018. Every permit holder will have to recertify their permits. There will be no more individual counties making decisions regarding who can have what type of permit, it will all be done at the state level.

Thanks friend!

Knowing how certain people in this state operate things at that point can and will get real interesting I'm sure.

Assuming they will allow mere citizens to still carry I should be able to pass most any firing test they mandate. Of course the big question is what new roadblocks will they put in our path!
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Old 08-24-2016, 10:27 PM
Steve_in_PA Steve_in_PA is offline
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In PA, the require me to have the shooter qualify with different firearms if the "controls" are different. So, if the shooter wants to carry a Glock, he can shoot the COF with a Glock, then carry any Glock. But it he may also want to carry, say a Sig 226, because the controls are different, he has to shoot another COF with the Sig.

And if he want to carry a revolver, he has to shoot a COF with the revolver.

I agree with the NRA's explanation, but try telling that to the powers that be.
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Old 08-24-2016, 10:35 PM
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Thanks friend!

Knowing how certain people in this state operate things at that point can and will get real interesting I'm sure.

Assuming they will allow mere citizens to still carry I should be able to pass most any firing test they mandate. Of course the big question is what new roadblocks will they put in our path!
Lakesider and Model 39,

Where is this coming from?

The (un)SAFE Act calls for recertification every 5 years; we hear that the county sheriffs are actively resisting this as another unfunded mandate from the state.

The NYSP has been unable to initiate the ammunition purchase database, either by design or intransigence, in the years since this abomination of law was passed. To expect them to take over a massive number of permits, many maintained in paper files in every county in the state, borders on unbelievable.

If there is some support for this notion hidden in the language of the act, please point it out.
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Old 08-25-2016, 02:06 AM
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I qualify with both revolver and semi-auto and my understanding is I'm covered for any handgun in either platform.
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Old 08-25-2016, 12:14 PM
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I was never a sworn officer, but as an instructor, assisted the county sheriff's training and was authorized as an auxiliary deputy to carry "when activated". We could carry whatever actual firearm we qualified with. They were listed by S/N with our sheriff's dept. I think I qualified with 4 or 5 handguns because of this.
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Old 08-27-2016, 11:54 AM
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Here in Maine they follow the text of LEOSA the way it's written - same [I]type[I] of firearm - either revolver or semiauto, you list one or the other or both on the application and qualify accordingly. Qual with an auto and you can carry any auto, same for revolvers. However, they don't list the type of firearm on the LEOSA certification card, go figure.

I live in a rural area and the Sheriff's Office is the only dept in the area that's large enough to have their own range officers/instructors so everybody that works for a small local agency or is retired shoots with them. The RO signs off on the application and you send it in to the state with $10 and they send you the card.

Maine is a constitutional carry state, but I still keep a CC permit for good measure. I only qual'd with an auto for my LEOSA card but often carry a J frame snubby. If I go out of state I always carry an auto.
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Old 08-27-2016, 12:19 PM
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Lakesider and Model 39,

Where is this coming from?

The (un)SAFE Act calls for recertification every 5 years; we hear that the county sheriffs are actively resisting this as another unfunded mandate from the state.


The NYSP has been unable to initiate the ammunition purchase database, either by design or intransigence, in the years since this abomination of law was passed. To expect them to take over a massive number of permits, many maintained in paper files in every county in the state, borders on unbelievable.

If there is some support for this notion hidden in the language of the act, please point it out.
I have checked with a few knowledgeable people I know and based on that I totally agree with what you have posted.

I was only answering Model 39s post as to what he posted
I never heard it before. I well knew about the 5 year plan/scheme but up till now things have been quite. I wonder where and who from he got his "info. Perhaps he will give us more detail in a future post! (hint hint)

The only thing is rest assured what ever they do/whenever they do it they will put in plenty of new steps for the permit dance.

Hopefully this explains my post!
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Old 08-27-2016, 02:04 PM
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As xray97 posted, we can carry whichever type of handgun we qualify with.

The annual certification card I am given has a checkbox for Semi-Auto, and a checkbox for Revolver. If both boxes are checked then I can carry one and/or both at the same time if I choose. No serial numbers or scores are shown on the card.

In addition to our certification card, our certification date is entered into our local database so if an out of state officer has contact with me they can call 24/7 the phone number on our certification card and verify as well.

Last edited by NCW Ray; 04-25-2017 at 07:11 PM. Reason: incorrect info had 27/7 instead of 24/7
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Old 08-29-2016, 12:22 AM
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Every place is different. When I retired in Colorado, I was given a special concealed weapon permit that has the LEOSA language on it. I also only needed to shoot the course once and carry whatever I wanted... no indication about a firearm style on the card.
Down here in AZ, they qualify according to POST and as apollo99 said, semi and/or revolver. They also don't issue a "permit" - it's a qualification card to be kept with your retired ID.
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Old 08-29-2016, 07:46 AM
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I don't carry under LEOSA, as I'm not a retired LEO...but with all the different interpretations by state, agency, lawyer, etc...why not just get a regular CCW permit to cover yourself? It may not give quite as many rights to carry as LEOSA does, but in most states it's very clear what you can and can't do. I would not want to be a test case for LEOSA if I got into a shooting.

I have a NC and AZ CCW permit. I really only got my NC permit because of the silly permits needed to buy pistols in this state...and with a CCW permit we are exempt from the pistol purchase permit.

If you have any firearms training, such as law enforcement or military, the AZ permit is super easy to obtain. Fingerprints, copy of your firearms training, 1 page CCW permit application filled out, and a $60 money order, and you're good for 5 years. Renewal is $45. Seems much easier than trying to decipher what you can and can't do under LEOSA.

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Old 08-29-2016, 08:45 AM
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When I am in my home state, which is where I live, I can carry anything I want. When I am out of state on vacation. I just want "a gun", so this is not a big deal to me. I just get the LEOSA with my vacation gun. The rest is irrelevant.
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Old 08-29-2016, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Fox4506 View Post
I don't carry under LEOSA, as I'm not a retired LEO...but with all the different interpretations by state, agency, lawyer, etc...why not just get a regular CCW permit to cover yourself? It may not give quite as many rights to carry as LEOSA does, but in most states it's very clear what you can and can't do. I would not want to be a test case for LEOSA if I got into a shooting.

I have a NC and AZ CCW permit. I really only got my NC permit because of the silly permits needed to buy pistols in this state...and with a CCW permit we are exempt from the pistol purchase permit.

If you have any firearms training, such as law enforcement or military, the AZ permit is super easy to obtain. Fingerprints, copy of your firearms training, 1 page CCW permit application filled out, and a $60 money order, and you're good for 5 years. Renewal is $45. Seems much easier than trying to decipher what you can and can't do under LEOSA.

Fox
Actually, despite the different ways that individual states interpret LEOSA (for issuing their own citizens documentation regarding qualifications and / or mandatory training), the rest is contingent on what LEOSA, (the federal law), grants under its authority.

For example, here in NC, if you were to qualify annually with your old agency or department the state would not get involved whatsoever. You'd receive your proof of qualification from that agency to keep with your retired creds and be good to go.

However, in NC, if you don't qualify with your old agency your alternative is to qualify through an instructor who is certified by the NC Dept. of Justice. In my case, a lieutenant with the local Sheriff's Dept.

The link I posted above from the NC DOJ provides a good explanation of the program and how it works...including a chart of where a retired LEO may carry vs. someone with a CCH.

Finally, I've considered getting a state license as well, and may in the future, but it would only be worthwhile if I wanted to conceal carry something I didn't qualify with for LEOSA or wanted to purchase additional firearms. Neither of which is the case at the present time. (The other firearm I carry occasionally but not under LEOSA, a 3" 686+, is open carried on our rural roads or local woods during periods of high bear or coyote activity while I'm out with the dog.)
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Old 09-02-2016, 02:40 AM
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IMO, LEOSA needs to be refined and re-affirmed by Congress. There needs to be no ambiguity as to the unquestionable overriding federal jurisdiction and national (50 state and all US territories) applicability of the law and no question as to the scope and intent of the Act. No state can claim to opt out. Furthermore, there needs to be specific duties and obligations required of (former) employing law enforcement agencies who should be required to either grant LEOSA credentials to former qualified employees or provide a factual, valid reason why the employee is not eligible. There should also be well defined civil remedies written into the law. The last agency to have employed the qualified separated / retired officer should be the agency obligated / required under the act to issue the credential to qualified persons.



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Old 09-02-2016, 04:14 AM
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FWIW, don't travel to Hawaii. They opted themselves out of the federal act. If you want to carry in Hawaii, they require that you pay a fee and apply for a permit. You must register your firearm within a short time of arriving on the island. LEOSA is not encouraged there. I will not be going back.
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Old 09-02-2016, 08:33 AM
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Huh?

Your statement is not true...nor could any state opt out of compliance with a Federal law.

Be safe.

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...They opted themselves out of the federal act. ...
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Old 09-02-2016, 01:11 PM
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Huh?

Your statement is not true...nor could any state opt out of compliance with a Federal law.

Be safe.
Big D,

NJ is another one, their RPO permit, which only came into effect around the time LEOSA was enacted, demands certain requirements, mental health check w/ annual renewal, and their qualification course also requires night fire, they emphasize that no hollow point ammunition is allowed.They also have a maximum age limitation.

As we see in the LEOSA, that is not what the federal law says.

Another problem, their twice annual qualification required you to send them a certificate signed by the instructor, listing your specific firearms used for qualification, they issued an annual card ($50.00) that said you met the qualification, but that card has been rejected in a nearby state as not being a "record of qualification."
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Old 09-02-2016, 03:20 PM
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States can and do often rationalize that they can add additional requirements to a federal law. What states can do, is enact their own state version of a federal law (act), but LEOSA should state, in no uncertain terms, that federal law supersedes all related state and local laws and prescribes penalties for state and agency non-compliance. (Historically, California has become too big for its collective britches.)

Here's Hawaii's added LEOSA requirements. Hawaii must have missed the memo about federal LEOSA requirements.
https://ag.hawaii.gov/cjd/files/2013...-QLEO-926B.pdf

Criminal Justice Division | Law Enforcement Index Page

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Old 09-02-2016, 05:09 PM
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Here in Louisiana, we must pass the Louisiana Peace Officer's Firearms qualification with a score of 70% or better. The firearm that I used is not listed on my qual card.
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Old 09-02-2016, 06:34 PM
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Huh?

Your statement is not true...nor could any state opt out of compliance with a Federal law.

Be safe.
Hmm...heard the term 'sanctuary cities'? Marijuana, in Colorado?
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Old 09-02-2016, 07:45 PM
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Default Apples and walnuts!.

Of course, I have. Will send along a linky in just a bit that will help you understand (I hope!) the relationship between state and federal laws.

Be safe.


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Hmm...heard the term 'sanctuary cities'? Marijuana, in Colorado?
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Old 09-03-2016, 09:21 AM
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Default Legal rationale.

This might help explain how there can be seemingly different laws in place.

States Can Legalize Marijuana (Though Federal Laws Stand), Says Congressional Research Service - Hit & Run : Reason.com

To be sure, though, state law cannot preempt Federal law. And LEOSA qualified persons CAN indeed carry in every state and territory.

Be safe.
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Old 09-03-2016, 10:45 AM
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My problem is with the annual qualification. The cost of range time, instructor time and ammunition all adds up. Everyone doesnt get it for free. Being retired I am on a fixed income. It's not that I cant qualify i was a certified police firearms instructor for over 30 years and developed courses of fire and trained thousands of officers. It's the pain in the *** that annual qualifications places on any officer particularly those who have moved or have been retired for a long time in my case over 20 years. Not only am I 1200 miles from my home state I dont know the local cops, chiefs(and I was one) sheriff etc to qualify locally. None of that is required for a state CCW which is good in most states and lasts seven years. While LEOSA has some benefits, too me its not worth the effort. Additionally I personally feel that if a ordinary citizen and there are millions can qualify for a multi-year CCW license with little or no training that license should be accepted as meeting LEOSA requirements for training. Present your retired identification and state CCW and you should be good to go. After all you had many years of firearms training and qualifications. So if a state issued CCW is good enough to give the average resident the right to carry it ought to be good enough for the retired officer. LEOSA needs to be changed to reflect that IMO. (But I know that is not going to happen)
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Old 09-03-2016, 11:30 AM
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Despite the inadequacies of the federal law and the varying ways that states implement the statute, I for one am very pleased that this thread has provided both the opportunity and served as a repository for the discussion of LEOSA as it currently stands, (across the nation), and any future changes that may be engendered going forward.

Let's continue to maintain this thread to the benefit of all that are covered under the act.
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Old 09-04-2016, 04:51 AM
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Huh?

Your statement is not true...nor could any state opt out of compliance with a Federal law.

Be safe.

You can be the test case. I chose not to poke the beast. I will go to normal states to vacation rather than give an anti-gun state my money.

I've carried in 49 states without problem but Hawaii thumbs their noses at LEOSA and require that you comply with their state laws in addition to the federal requirement. They will allow you to carry if you comply with their permit and registration laws. The five day registration is problematic in that only certain PDs are designated as portals of the registration process. They allow registration only a couple days per week. If you are at the end of the line they will close before you get to the window and you will have to try again another day. If you show up beyond the five day window it can be a felony.

Hawaii has nothing that I need to make it worth the hassle of complying with their laws. Call if you want to experience the arrogance of the DAs that will be happy to try and get your bail maximized. I feel as you do that they shouldn't get away with what they are doing but that is the reality of island life. Review the above posted links kindly provided by AimHigher.

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Old 09-04-2016, 08:31 AM
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LEOSA does not prohibit registration. Many states still require retirees to register firearms. States can still require it. You may not like it but that does not mean HI has "thumbed their noses" at LEOSA. Read LEOSA. And when you do read the actual words and not some preconceived belief what you want LEOSA to say. It only exempts from CCW requirements by states/territories.
States/agencies are not required to issue retirement ID nor are they mandated to qualify retirees. Some claim that agencies failing to do so 'thumb their nose" at LEOSA. Not so. If you read the congressional discussions that occurred prior to the passage of LEOSA you will see the intent of LEOSA was not to mandate agencies to do anything and agencies are not liable for retirees. So any court case contesting some people's beliefs of ills with LEOSA the courts would take into consideration the intent of LEOSA by reviewing the legislative intent when the bill was passed.
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Old 09-06-2016, 01:26 PM
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My agency was listing the specific make/model/caliber/serial number of weapon used for LEOSA qualification on the qualification document for a while.

Now, they merely ask if you want to shoot a revolver or a pistol, or both, and then list one or both types on the document if the retiree qualifies.
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Old 09-07-2016, 05:48 PM
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My agency was listing the specific make/model/caliber/serial number of weapon used for LEOSA qualification on the qualification document for a while.

Now, they merely ask if you want to shoot a revolver or a pistol, or both, and then list one or both types on the document if the retiree qualifies.
Same with ours. The listing of a specific weapon was not intended as a restriction as the only listed firearms you could carry. It was in case you were ever questioned if you qualified with auto or revolver that you could show, for example, an auto and it was a S&W 6904, ser # such and such or a revolver it was a S&W 649, ser # 12345J. Finally the dept decided that was getting to be too much paperwork needlessly retained so now we get a sticker on our retired ID which certifies we qualified during such a month in the current year and a contact number.
Less paperwork = happy range officers.
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Old 09-07-2016, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by AimHigher View Post
Furthermore, there needs to be specific duties and obligations required of (former) employing law enforcement agencies who should be required to either grant LEOSA credentials to former qualified employees or provide a factual, valid reason why the employee is not eligible.
I appreciate your sentiment, but we're under their thumb for years while we worked there.... I wouldn't want to continue that into retirement. Just send me my check every month, thanks.
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Old 04-24-2017, 08:38 PM
JWM JWM is offline
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This is an old thread, but we need to put forward specifics to improve the LEOSA. I retired from federal LE service last summer and had my first LEOSA qual with a municipal police dept here in South Carolina. Fortunately, South Carolina does not split hairs with "type of handgun". I specifically asked that question and they shoot either semi auto or revolver, does not matter. I qualed with my Glock 17, but 99% of the time carry my 5-shot .38 revolver. No fancy qual card issued, just a letter on agency letter head stating that I passed the test with my G17. Folded it up and stuck in my retired Creds case. In my opinion, there are three areas that need legislation to correct LEOSA: 1). Clarify that separate qual with auto or revolver are not necessary to carry the other platform (NRA's position). 2). Specific language that carry under LEOSA exempts from the school Gun Free Zone Act. 3). Specific language that those carrying under LEOSA are exempt from state imposed magazine restrictions. Being retired, I'm now traveling around the USA in a motor home. That is why I chose to carry my revolver because I did not want to worry about magazine restrictions.

Last edited by JWM; 04-24-2017 at 08:56 PM.
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