Rastoff said:


My wife wanted to get some trigger time with her Galloway LC380 yesterday so we took it down to our range and I set up a few IDPA targets for her to run through as well as a plate to double tap on the move.




I took my M&P40 PC Ported with a Trijicon RM07 along and put another 150 rounds through it. (I normally like to shoot it at least 400 rounds to make cleaning it worth while but we had other stuff that needed to be done.) That brings the total up to 2445 rounds of several different factory loads and many PennBullets 165 TCBB. Not a single burp on anything.

I'm a relatively new comer to the 1911 platform having only purchased my first 1911 (a Gold Cup Elite for $450) in 1988. Since then I've had a "few".
When I did the first round of "safe cleaning" a few years back and sold about sixty-five guns I did hang on to ten 1911s, but sold two of them last Saturday at a local gun show so I'm down to only eight 1911s now, in 9mm, 10mm, .40 S&W, and of course .45 ACP. All are full size except the Colt Stainless Lightweight Commander XS. (I sold the SW1911SC Saturday.)

I really like the 1911 platform and put thousands of round through them in IDPA matches and range practice and carried a full size or Commander size for years up until about the first of the year. Back when I was younger and had better eyesight I would not have thought about anything else as an off the farm EDC and I still greatly enjoy range time with one.

However, as homely as it is the PC Ported with the RM07 is, for me now, the best defensive pistol set up I could own.

As has been aptly said numerous times in this thread use what works for you, both in platform and in caliber.

Cheers
James

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Hebrews 9:27

FWIW, I trust the .45 ACP as a EDC. Despite my preference for it, I am compelled to heed Bill Wilson's change from the .45 to 9mm.
Several posts above note the advancement in today's ammo as putting the 9mm, .38/.357 and .45 at or near par. Others (IMO) rightly advocate carrying the weapon you can fire accurately. Andrew2105 touches on the only relevant thing I would add: if you intend to carry more than one gun, choose ones with the same manual of arms. After years of Sigs, I've moved to the 1911 platform. Both have the same controls in the same place, same feel, same operating procedures. I love S&W N frames, but moving between semi-autos and revolvers is a factor I'm no longer willing to accept in EDC. Muscle memory and training on one platform is about all I'm willing to trust if I need to execute under stress, low-light, and (more than likely) dealing with the loss of fine motor control. For me, reloading a semi-auto under stress is a lot easier than using speed loaders...but that's just me. As with so many things, there's no single answer, only the one that works best for you. YMMV.

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50 Years of DSOTM

Well, I see you're a man of few words! So I'll try to keep this brief: I've been using and carrying pistols for more than a 1/2 century; and, especially when I'm nervous, 45 ACP is what I carry. However, on those days when I'm feeling less threatened and/or, 'less hunted for' I'll switch from 45 ACP to 9 x 19 mm; and yes, quite frankly, I feel almost (but not quite) as secure.

Punching holes in paper isn't going to show it to you. Neither will gelatin, clay blocks, or wet newspaper. It's when I shoot at steel and/or wood that I always see the most impressive results. (Think in terms of, 'barrier penetration'!) A lot of different types of wood fracture better when they're hit with 45 ACP (FMJ) bullets; neither do wooden backstops last as long; and heavy steel targets will, also, ring louder and fall down more consistently (even with peripheral hits) when they're hit with 45 ACP (FMJ) bullets.

But, ....... you can put all of the ballistic hoopla on: muzzle energy, muzzle velocity, retained velocity, bullet type, and cross-sectional density aside. 'Why'? Because all of it is actually secondary self-defense criteria. Thee primary self defense criterion is to be able to score nice tight groups on the target's COM, and to have the combat savvy and common sense to know better than to fire only once, or twice on ANY, 'significant' (Read, 'life-threatening') target.

YOU KEEP ON, 'TAPPING' THAT TRIGGER UNTIL THE TARGET FALLS OFF YOUR FRONT SIGHT.

I fire combat pistol rounds in strings of three or more shots at a time; and I try to keep my groups as tight as possible while I'm doing it, too. Either 9 mm, or 45 ACP will suffice to get the job done; but, in the more than 1/2 century that I've been working with pistols, 45 ACP has always proven itself to be the more impressive of the two cartridges for self-defense work on humanoid targets - No ifs, no ands, no buts! 45 ACP is the better, more consistent, 'man-killer'.

No prejudice, either. I use and carry both. I fire equally fast with either cartridge; and I hit the same with the both of them, too. I really don't care what different cartridge(s) another gunman favors; I truly don't. A pistolero is welcome to use whatever cartridge he's happy with; and he may gunfight, or practice his self-defense shooting skills however he likes. It really doesn't matter to me in the slightest.

With this understanding stated and out in the open, my own principal cartridge choice for all genuinely, 'serious work' against humanoid targets is 45 ACP. In this life I've never found any bullet that's either harder hitting, or quicker stopping; nor do I believe that I ever will - Not in a powder-actuated firearm!

The history of handgun combat is rife with numerous stories of targets that have received multiple hits and, still, failed to stop. (Ready?) SO WHAT! Whenever I see one of these videos or read about one of these SEEMINGLY incredible incidents I always smile to myself, and think, 'Hell, I'll just bet that the majority of those (whatever) pistol bullets didn't land inside a six inch circle over the top of the target's COM.' (Because if they had there would have been NO failure to stop - Period!

One of my typical targets that I fired with a G-19 in front of, at least, three other certified instructors:



(22 yards distance, rapid fire, just as fast as I could tap the trigger and perform several reloads.)

Gees,

Everybody knows that Johnny Ray Rowland loaded his 1/16" longer cases with .451 slugs.

Jest callin it a 46....fools a lot of folks, I guess.


Su Amigo,
Dave

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Wood? Really?



Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Kinda like the .357 Sig???

Also known as "changing their channel".

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

I've used or carried a wide range of calibers and different chamberings in pistols over the last 5 decades.

Started out with the 45 ACP in a Gov't model, just because that's what my father liked.

Having run the gambit from the 25acp, 380, 9mm in +P and +P+ to the 357 Sig, the 40 Short & Weak and the 10mm...

I'm right back where I started, the 45 ACP. I do like the modern
ammunition that is available in the 45 automatic colt pistol round.

I do fully realize that it is a pistol cartridge and it does have it's limitations.

When I sometimes get that ol time feelin', carry a short rifle along as well.


.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Yeah, really! I know criticizing and adding next to nothing but a wisecrack to thread can, somehow, give certain people an odd sense of superiority; but, you know what you really missed?

You missed the gist of what I offered about using a 45 ACP pistol IN THE REAL WORLD as well as the level of GENUINE SKILL it is necessary to achieve with a handgun in order to be truly effective - You know, ....... effective to the point where choice-of-caliber and/or bullet design doesn't make a significant difference!

Another thing, it wasn't necessary for you to requote my entire reply. What for? Did requoting my remarks, somehow, add to the sense of bassackward euphoria you derived from missing most of what I offered?

Wow, but, it's just so sad! Educational standards, along with common courtesy, have gone all to hell in today's America; and the way things are going I fully expect the intellectual situation will be getting worse; but, hey, you're one really cool gun forum dude; so what difference does it make! (You don't know, do you.)

It sure isn't my first .45, but I do feel like the Shield 45 is a great EDC pistol. It carries very nicely and seems perfectly dependable and accurate.

This is my fall and winter gun although I carry a 37 snub at times and in the warmer months. I find that with a good belt and holster I don't really mind the weight. This Colt has been flawless through a few thousand rounds of just about every kind of factory ammo. Seems dependable and I shoot it fairly well.
Peace,
Gordon

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better have that checked

In my case its asking do I want to carry the 4566TSW or the SIG P938. What I usually decide on is the Kahr CW380.

4566TSW, about 38 oz unloaded. Kahr, 11 oz.
4566 9 rounds, Kahr 8.
4566 has a smooth trigger and nice break. Same for the Kahr.
4566 needs a quality shoulder holster for CCW and hunting. Kahr has one.
4566 needs more carry time to decide, Kahr will go a week on vacation on the beach with little discomfort.
4566 is .45ACP, Kahr is .380. While we say that the smaller cartridges have improved, that same tech also affects the .45, so the goal posts keep moving and the .45 isn't your grandpa's old FMJ military load anymore.

I think what we should enjoy is that there is a choice. So far military cartridges aren't illegal in the US and we can own them. Use what you need to for the job at hand that day.

The caliber argument is not as great as it once was with the advancements of modern ammunition. Personally, I am a fan of the 1911. I've shot and carried them for many years. Twenty years ago, we could argue over capacity and round counts vs. caliber and "stopping power". Today, the playing field is very equal. Here in California, we have been restricted to magazines with a 10-round maximum capacity. That said, a Glock 9mm will hold 10+1 vs. my 1911 .45 8+1.....now that isn't as hard of a discussion any more.




If I need something smaller and lighter, I grab my alloy framed Colt CCO Lightweight........



Round counts aside, I'll never turn down a short K-Frame either.....

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Well, if there's been a multi-******* leap of improvement in small-bullet performance in the self-defense area, wouldn't that also apply to large-bullet performance? Wouldn't the .44s and .45s be that same degree of improvement better?

I'll agree completely with that statement. All I was getting at was the discussion comparing between 9mm and .45 hardball ammo is a thing of the past at this point.

Personally, I'd still choose the .45 because I like the pressure curve of that round better. I have no trouble hitting a target well with it, and I like that it has relatively low noise and muzzle flash while still being effective. I've always had a bit of distaste for the higher velocity "magnum" rounds when a larger slug at a slower velocity will get the job done just as well.....

The point of flash and concussion is underrated.
Years ago, I tried my Colt Magnum Carry .357 with factory Gold Dots in a shoot-house type range for education. No need for a hit with that combination; the concussion would drop everyone in a small room on the spot.
Unfortunately, the defender could well be stunned, too.
Hence my sticking with low-pressure, low-concussion rounds.

Clearly you've never tried to clear a room after a flashbang. People still seem to be pretty active . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

But you've never used a .45 (or anything else) in the real world. I'm not saying that I have but I'm also not running around telling people what a top notch gun fighter I am.

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Retired Career Security Guard

Personally I am a 40/45 fan, I just like a bigger bullet. Having said that I do sometimes carry My shield 9mm or Glock 26/19 and feel pretty comfortable.
Generally its my Glock 23 or My shield 45 both guns are utterly reliable and accurate, My shield is amazingly accurate for such a small gun, which gives me a little more confidence while carrying even tho the magazine capacity is limited.

Heard this on another forum and totally believe in it- "You never heard a dead man complain about caliber selection".

I personally would never want to be on the other end of a .45, and I would bet 100% that none of us even want to be on the other end of a .22. They will both hurt.

My winter carry for the past 17 years has been this Kimber Ultra Carry in a custom $OB holster....carried cocked and locked. Re-thinking this carry position as of late and may pick up a Milt Sparks VMII or Summer Special for this baby.
.

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or have hips that get in the way. I love my new 1911, full size SPringfield with several customizations to make it fit me. I shoot it far better than my normal EDC J-Frame but I haven't yet figured out how to conceal the thing or I'd be carrying it all the time.

PS OTOH it's perfectly fine for around the farm where I don't have to worry about concealment at all. I use an offset OWB holster the "Lady Holster" at 4 o'clock for both.

Wouldn't advancements in modern ammunition apply to all calibers?

Kind of like a rising tide lifts all boats?

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Retired Career Security Guard

There has been some improvement in bullet technology and powder composition since I started shooting in the 1950s. The improvements apply to all calibers. It still doesn't make a .22 short equal to a 500 S&W. I have always been a go big or stay home guy.

I prefer a 5" government model 1911 because it is what I shoot most accurately under stress. I have several in both .45 ACP and 10 mm that I routinely carry concealed cocked and locked. I also pocket carry a Sig P938 9 mm as a BUG.

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U.S. Navy - U.S. Army, ret

That's exactly my argument. The 230 grain HST +P is a pretty hard round to be (Not to mention the Win SXT)

Those who note that where you put the bullet is more important than caliber, design, velocity or phase of the moon are correct. Honest coroners/forensic pathologists/medical examiners can't tell the difference in wound tracks given similar bullets.

I'll also point out that recent research indicates that despite considerable training and experience, fingers get on triggers when they really shouldn't to a surprising degree. The researchers came up with an acronym I can't recall (something like trigger position reference reflex), but they suspect a deep seated need to make sure the trigger hasn't moved and that the trigger finger can still reach it.

Now I know there's a lot of folks out there saying "NOT ME! I don't do those things"! You may well be wrong- review the comment above about highly trained and experienced. This suggests that short, light trigger pulls on serious guns aren't the best choice.

Anyone who says, "That will never happen to me" is only fooling themselves. Complacency gets us all at one point or another.

I like at least a 4lb trigger on a defensive gun.

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Freedom isn't free.

Since changing style of dress, can carry 45 acp all day. That said, wouldn't argue with any ones choice any pistol they are proficient with and can conceal.

A Para LDA Carry in 45acp.
A Smith 386 PD, 357, 7 shot L frame

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You don't have to push a 9mm faster anymore they open just fine.

Love the Yosemite grips

Great statement you made there. I'm always amazed at the people who quote advancements in the 9mm, but feel the 40 cal and 45 ACP were frozen in time. HST, Gold Dot, and Ranger T are testament to that technology. I carry HST in all of my 45s. Thanks for sharing your experience.

This is what I keep saying. Obviously, according to the internet, all of the ballistic experts worked tirelessly to improve the 9mm, while completely ignoring everything else!

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Because of the metric system?

Size can be an issue with .45 carry. I think the Sig C3 is about as good a 1911 carry package you can get. Officers frame, commander slide.

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I've still got it made.

Use what you can shoot confidently and draw quickly. The 45 ACP is certainly adequate as is any handgun........to fight your way to a long gun......The light trigger on the 1911 is a concern based on my human factor research if used for civilian self defense. A longer double action pull has many advantages. It may not be as tacti-cool.

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Great round if you're going to carry it all the time..... The smallest .45 acp I have is a lightweight Colt Officer's model and I still keep going back to my J-Frames. In fact, might be purchasing a 340PD because of the light weight.

Well, while I often think to shy away from nibbling on this caliber bait ... I'll offer this, though ...

Whenever one of our folks used to come to me with this question (in my role as firearms instructor), I often pointed out a couple of things to them.

Firstly, I've carried both issued and personally-owned pistols chambered in 9, .40 & .45 ACP, and I couldn't have carried any of them if I didn't think they were more than adequate for the intended tasks.

Secondly, I invited them to try the different caliber they were considering, taking them downrange and letting them try a choice or two of whatever "caliber" they were thinking about switching to for duty or off-duty usage.

That little bit of self demonstration more often than not opened their eyes to things they might not have been considering, like whether a heavier recoiling caliber might work for them? Or, if they were still interested in going to a heavier caliber, were they interested in working to increase their skills to accurately and effectively use it?

Running someone through some normal drills (for familiarization), and then perhaps some faster paced and more demanding drills (to let them self-assess their ability to run the new caliber/gun against their existing one), better let them decide if changing calibers was a decision they really wanted to make.

Not everyone wants to put in the work that may be needed to run a harder recoiling gun, especially at speed and in demanding conditions.

As a matter of fact, the last couple of times we've allowed people to "pre-select" their new duty weapons (meaning caliber), we've seen a lot of folks express a desire to carry a .45 (last estimate I was told was the .45 was selected close to 70% of the time). Then, of course, once the guns were actually being fired for transition & quals courses, people were wanting to change over to lesser recoiling calibers (like 9's).

Don't get me wrong. I'm a long time owner and shooter of .45 ACP. I've always liked the low-power, but big-bore ACP round.

I've carried it as issued and personally-owned off-duty choices.

It's just that I've also found the 9mm and the .40 S&W to be fine for my use in the same circumstances.

For me ... learning to run and master the .40 made it much easier to run my 9's and .45's. The better I became with my .40's (issued and personally-owned), the better I shot my 9's & .45's

Before I started to acclimate myself to the .40, I found it easier to shoot my 9's after spending time shooting my .45's ... but range time using my 9's didn't really seem to help me improve shooting my .45's.

Nowadays, shooting my .40's a lot seems to make me a better shooter of both 9 & .45 ... and I've invested so much time shooting my .40's that I often have trouble distinguishing their felt recoil and muzzle whip from shooting my 9's. I couldn't say that 10 years ago. Back then the .40's felt like they had more snap & muzzle whip. (Well, having access to an agency's ammunition inventory, as an instructor, made everything a lot easier. )

My .45's? Just a nice controllable push/shove and slower muzzle whip.

I tell people to suit themselves ... but remember that the "proof" of the appropriateness of their choice is still often found downrange, using a timer and considering the arrangement of holes in the intended threat targets.

Choose wisely ... for yourself. If you're willing to fool yourself about your ability to controllably and effectively run any particular caliber? You won't have to look far to find someone to blame.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Fastbolt:

Well thought out thesis. I think that you hit on some important issues that many folks overlook. There are many different body types and strength ranges, and the ability to practice adequately is really important. and you are right about having access to the department ammo supply!

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064