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Old 09-10-2016, 11:43 PM
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I had a long talk today with a retired deputy sheriff regarding concealed carry and self defense guns.

I asked him what gun would he recommend for conceal carry.

He told me for conceal carry he would ONLY use a revolver and NEVER a semi pistol. He also told me that in his opinion a 5 shot 38 revolver would be the highest caliber I would need.

What do you guys think about his advice ? If I do buy another revolver which model do you recommend and do I need anything larger than a 38 ?

Thanks
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Old 09-10-2016, 11:58 PM
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J-frames fit the 5 shot 38 revolver criteria. You'll get many replies. In fact a search will pull up several threads including J-frame picture threads. But for me it's a no-brainer. The 642 which is .38 special only for in-waist band carry and the 60-9 which is .357/.38 for out-of-waist band carry. See picture below with the 642 on the left. PEN
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Old 09-11-2016, 12:23 AM
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People think cops are experts on guns. They aren't. No disrespect to the fine coppers here, but even they will tell you the same.

There is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't carry a semi auto.

Now that that's cleared up.......

A J frame 38 is a very popular choice. Easy to conceal and operate. Adequate for self defense. But you must practice.

There's much to choose from and you don't need anything more than a 38. Smith 642/442. Ruger LCR.
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Old 09-11-2016, 12:29 AM
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For me, my M 638 will do.
Don't think I could shoot my M 66 2.5" better then the 638 and only hits count...
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Old 09-11-2016, 01:33 AM
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While I certainly think a 5-shot .38 is adequate for most people, it's certainly not the only option for self defense. As Kanewpadle said, most cops are not gun enthusiasts. I also have to wonder when this deputy retired. He may have served at a time when revolvers were more popular/trusted than semi-autos. I also tend to question people who offer advice as absolutes (ONLY carry this, ONLY carry that, etc.).

My suggestion is that you find a range where you can rent a variety of guns to see what suits you best, whether it's a revolver or a semi-auto. I carry a 642-1. I think it, or the equivalent 442-1, can serve well as a self defense gun, but I would be fine carrying a semi-auto. My criteria, whether revolver or semi-auto, is that it's reliable with defensive ammo, I can shoot it well with defensive ammo, and it's something I'm willing and able to carry.
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Old 09-11-2016, 02:13 AM
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I carry both semi and revolver (not at the same time obviously). Some days I carry my 642-2, some days I carry the M&P Shield 9... I practice OFTEN with both, and I'm really good with both. Many times, it just depends on what I'm wearing or doing that day! The advice I got from my retired LA County deputy sheriff (uncle) was exactly what he does... Get good with both, carry whichever one fits your needs for that day.


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Old 09-11-2016, 03:19 AM
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I carry a compact 9mm semi, 38spl snubby (6 shot of course), or a 357mag snubby. My revolvers are Ponies. Every one has an intended purpose when I carry it.

Some times you might want more fire power than a 38spl. Some times you might want higher round count. It all depends on the situation.

If you were to get ONE carry gun, I would get a compact 357mag. That way you can alternate 38spl/357mag depending on your desires. However, a snubby 38spl would fit the carry bill nicely. Before I had the 357mag, my Detective was always well trusted. There were times when I wanted that extra magnum power though, which resulted in the 357.

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Old 09-11-2016, 06:55 AM
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If you have not already done so, try several models of compact revolvers and semi-autos, perhaps at a range that rents them. You may find to get along much better with one or the other. If not, buying one favorite of each is good .

Regarding chambering/caliber, in a revolver anything larger than a .38/.357 will be more of a specialist's tool and harder to find. Plenty of compact pistols in larger calibers. Good luck in your search.
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Old 09-11-2016, 07:12 AM
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Absolutely nothing wrong with a 5 shot, .38 J-frame.

But it's really a matter of personal preference and how and where you carry and how you need to dress on a daily basis.

Heck there are at least 20 different Smith J-frames: 2",3", exposed hammer , shrouded hammer, internal hammer , steel, stainless, light weight alloy(s).......

You said he was "retired"...... so he may have developed his/the J-frame habit 30+years ago.................a lot has changed with small autos since then.

95% of the time a "mid-size" S&W 3913 9mm single stack (8+1) auto has met my needs for the past 25/27 years................ I also like 3" K-frame 65s and 66 revolvers. But that's me!
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Old 09-11-2016, 08:19 AM
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I say carry what you like, shoot well, practice with, and will carry daily. I have tried a lot of guns for carry. Working at gun shops made it easy and affordable. I like revolvers best. These are the revolvers I pick from daily. A 442 is always in my pocket and one of the other snubs is AIWB. Everyone has to pick what suits them. Maybe several of each.
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Old 09-11-2016, 09:52 AM
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Cops are not necessarily gun people. Many don't even touch their guns outside of qualifications. The information he gave you isn't bad but it's kinda dated.

Have you shot a small 38 caliber revolver? They are not easy. Recoil is harder on your hand because there is no slide spring to soak up some of the recoil like a semi auto. The barrel is small and the trigger pull is long and on the heavier side making it harder to shoot accurately. If you practice these issues go away. You get used to the recoil and you get better with accuracy but you need practice.... probably more than on a semi auto.

Also as has been mentioned.....how you dress and how you intend to carry will dictate to some extent what you carry. This comes down to personal comfort. Small semi autos are typically thinner and hold more ammo. Some are lighter than others. There is nothing wrong with more and potentially more powerful ammo if the gun works for you

Don't get hung up on what some deputy said. Try to rent a few and see what you like. You may not be able to carry them but you'll get a feel for how they shoot and sit in your hand

Also, you mentioned ..."do I need anything larger than a 38". The size isn't always a good way to judge. A 38 is longer than a 9mm but uses the same bullet. However typically a 9mm will have more energy than a 38 because of the type of powder and barrel length.

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Old 09-11-2016, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Vettecor View Post
What do you guys think about his advice ? If I do buy another revolver which model do you recommend and do I need anything larger than a 38 ?

Thanks
I say carry what you are most comfortable and most accurate with.
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Old 09-11-2016, 11:28 AM
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No disrespect to our LEOs on here intended as they are gun people. I learned long ago not to put too much faith in what many cops say about guns in general or gun laws.(do your own research on that subject, gun laws) FWIW I live in the Northern part of the peoples republic of NY.

Many cops are not gun people and if fact to them the gun is just a part of their uniform.(especially in a anti gun state like NY is)

OP carry what you want. Most anything good quality .38/9MM or better will do you fine. Get it, practice a lot with it.
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Old 09-11-2016, 11:37 AM
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The S&W 642 would be a really solid choice. The S&W 442, 340 M&P(.357 magnum capable, more expensive) and the 640(heavier, stainless steel) are other options. A lot of folks like the Ruger LCR.

I do prefer snub revolvers for carry, but I wouldn't necessarily say never consider carrying a semi-auto. There must be logical reasons behind whatever someone chooses. I'd be interested in what the specific reasons were behind his recommendations.

Many police officers are not considered gun enthusiasts by some individuals heavily interested and involved in firearms, but many of the people who self-identify as gun people aren't really self-defense people. I don't feel you can come to many relevant personal defense conclusions solely from static range shooting.

I personally feel the enclosed hammer snub revolver is probably the best overall concealed carry weapon for civilians. The reasons being the majority of pesonal defense encounters occur at extremely close distances. You don't have to be a marksman or engage in extensive practice to hit from 3 yards. The snub is very quick to access and get on target in reactive close-quarters. Muzzle contact shots are possible. They will function reliably in a grappling situation or entangled in clothing. The snub offers excellent weapon retention against disarms. Limp-writing is not a concern(you may be shooting one handed, while moving or engaged in a ECQ struggle rather than from a picture perfect stance and firm two handed grip like at the range and a semi-auto needs to be fired from a relatively stable platform to function reliably).

I do however like semi-autos(Glocks in my case)for most home defense scenarios. Since I can't likely flee the scene as would be probable in a public place defense scenario, I like the greater capacity when having to make a stand. With added lead time, shooting from a stable or even static position is much more likely. I will default back to the revolver for investigating noises and such or if carrying at home, answering the door to a stranger etc. since the revolvers CQ strengths are a benefit in those scenarios.

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Old 09-11-2016, 11:40 AM
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Your requirements should determine what you carry.
  • What's your threat environment? Rabid dogs or MS-13?
  • What size gun does your wardrobe allow you to properly conceal?
  • What's your budget?
  • What's your experience with firearms?
Until relatively recently, I frequently pocket carried a 2" Smith 36-"no dash". I had to disarm frequently, and didn't expect to run into a threat more capable than a meth head looking for drug money.

Now, you've got animals gibbering "Aloha snackbar!" and shooting everybody in sight or cutting off heads. I switched first to a Glock 19, then to a 3 1/2" M1911.

I don't assume that cops know anything about guns or the law. Frequently they know about neither.
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Old 09-11-2016, 11:54 AM
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This is proving to be an interesting thread.

I must preface this answer with the fact that I can only carry when out of state, since my home state doesn't recognize the average person's right to self defense.

My carry rotation is divided into two groups: primary and secondary. My primary rotation includes my: 36-6 (soon to be replaced by a 686+ 3") and my Mauser HSC. I turn to these when my travels take me through rural areas where an encounter is unlikely. My secondary rotation includes my: 1911 Government Model (soon to be replaced by a Commander), a 439 or a Colt Trooper MKIII. This rotation will be utilized in the event that I am traveling through urban areas, I am driving long distances, or there is a greater than normal likelihood of unrest.

Being disabled, I don't have the luxury or ability to run from danger like I was once able, so finding cover and making a stand is now the priority.

Honestly, I would NOT limit myself to a revolver for all carry scenarios. There is a time and place for semi-autos. The caveat, is that you need to be proficient with whatever you choose to carry.
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Old 09-11-2016, 02:07 PM
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I have both, carry either/or, have zero heartburn about carrying one or the other. Whatever you decide on, just remember, the gun's only as good as the guy behind it.
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Old 09-11-2016, 02:46 PM
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Being disabled, I don't have the luxury or ability to run from danger like I was once able, so finding cover and making a stand is now the priority.
At some point in our lives, we all will lose much of our physical ability to react quickly and effectively. Age will eventually rob us of our strength, speed and mobility. Injury or illness may take it sooner for some.

I currently actually have more semi-automatics, but envision a day when I own nothing but revolvers. They are simpler for aged minds and more reliable in elderly hands.

For those with limited mobility(whether just difficulty walking and general getting around or even those confined to a wheelchair) I would assert that the revolver is the most logical choice.
The inability to flee also means less ability to instantly create space or "get off the X". If you are struggling to simply walk, it will take a large portion of your focus and you are therefore less capable of being tuned in and aware of what's going on in your surroundings due to your overall movement being limited(turning, looking around)as well as being distracted by pain. That means even more compressed time frames that you have to react within.This would be exceedingly true for folks with severe mobilty issues and such issues often don't always occur in isolation as other accompanying ailments affect competence in using a weapon.
Also, those of advanced age or are otherwise ill, generally tend not to have the greatest situational awareness or fastest responses and reflexes. Plus criminals would likely see them as an easy target.

Due to those reasons, the probability of the scenario being close contact is even greater and it is in those types of scenarios that the revolver really shines. Specifically the hammerless snub. That doesn't mean an auto can't effectively be used, I just think a wheelgun makes a lot more sense.

A lot of folks seem to envision armed defense as some kind of shootout situation, but those are extremely rare in the civilian context. If you have to make a stand, it will likely come suddenly and be at contact distances out to a few feet or yards. With age and disability comes greater need as well as legal leeway in being able to use a gun due to disparity of force. A young, strong unarmed man assaulting a disabled or elderly individual could definitely warrant an armed response being justifiable, appropriate and necessary.

For a car gun to respond to car-jacking attempts or driving through an area of social unrest where driving away is not an option, a revolver would again be more suitable IMO for shooting from the likely close, awkward, one handed positions.

Just my take on the subject. YMMV
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Old 09-11-2016, 03:47 PM
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Letting my personal prejudice show I guess. Not all cops are gun people or firearms experts. I guess it's all what quantifies as a gun experts to you. If you think it's someone who is quick to share their expert opinion based on what they read on the Internet and/or at their minimum wage job at the gun counter while they strut around with their open carry crunchinticker 9.3 mm blaster in a quadruple threat nylon holster lashed to their leg. While they may have never had any actual firearms training they do have months of experience carrying when it suites them.

Or maybe your definition of a firearms expert is someone who has had regular recognized certified training in the field. Maybe it's someone who has carried concealed for years, even when they didn't feel like it. Someone who is not only trained in the physical part but the legal aspect as well. Someone who may have actually been in real life shootings, oh wait, I'm describing cops.

I don't mean to have an elitists attitude and cops aren't perfect, but I would consider what they have to say when it comes to CC over the posers.
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Old 09-11-2016, 04:36 PM
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A lot of older, retired cops started their service careers with revolvers, and were required to transition into semi autos for duty carry. I'm one of them. IMO, a lot of the old school die hards had some sort of negative experience with semi autos that made them conclude that revolvers were more reliable. Some autos had problems feeding HP ammo in the early days. The 9mm got the reputation of not having enough stopping power. Some of it also had to do with individual learning curve issues in mastering the new manual of arms.

While I mostly carry a DAO 9mm subcompact for cc these days, I have never lost my love for S&W revolvers. I don't feel under gunned with a revolver, but my subcompact gives me a three-round advantage over my J frame snubby, and conceals as easily. While my semi autos are more than accurate enough for defensive purposes, I've never shot one that grouped as tight as my duty carry 4" 686. In the final analysis, nobody can choose what fits your hand and your needs. Range time with different models of handguns will help answer those needs.

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Old 09-11-2016, 05:10 PM
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A higher percentage of Police Ofc are *gun people* than of the general public. But that is still a minority of the universe of LEOs . Their baseline is to be resonably adaquate with their issued/ approved duty weapon(s). Their breadth and depth of gun knowledge is often no deeper than thought through their job. The positive aspect is most of them having good awareness and street sense.
Also in this thread, the OP did not relate about his experience with shooting generally, or handguns specifically. His retired Deputy friend may have tailored his recomendations to reflect a newer shooter, and the complexity of the manual of arms , and initial training to get up to " sorta competent".

That said, I DO like revolvers, and a decent .38+P loading is a worthwhile balance of power vs control.

I will question the default selection of J frame snub. They are a breeze to carry, but are biased in the ease of carry vs ease to shoot accurately at reasonably quick pace. The OP ( and similarily situated people) should also try medium framed .38 and compare .

Can semi's be effectively used for SD/ CCW ? Sure. Been there done that also. Do people have to carry a semi to be reasonably adaquate in their protection? Nope.
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Old 09-11-2016, 05:18 PM
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Do not discount the 44 special for self defense and ccw.
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Old 09-11-2016, 08:49 PM
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Small 5 shot revolvers are very difficult to shoot proficiently. If you're willing to put in A LOT of practice, it's a fine option. The 5 shot revolver is ideal for one assailant situations who are willing to break off the attack after you start sending lead.

The 5 shot revolver is NOT ideal for other situations: like, multiple assailants, terrorist-type situations where the terrorists expect to fight to the death, extremely determined single assailants who are high on drugs.

There are some very good small semi-autos out there now too. I love my SIG p238. It is smaller than a J-frame and easier to shoot fast and accurately. It holds 8 rounds.

if you can put in the practice, and you understand the limitations of the 5 shot wheelgun, it's a good option.
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Old 09-11-2016, 10:31 PM
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Just me. I figure if I need a back up it'll be up close. My choice for easy to carry and hide out is the S&W 351PD 7 round .22magnum. Your mileage may vary.
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Old 09-12-2016, 02:24 AM
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I had a Mod. 60 back in the day. Nice little revolver and very compact. But looking back on my J frame experience, I wouldn't bet my life on my ability to take care of business with it under a range of scenarios. The J frame is essentially a belly gun -- very close range only IMO. And then (as others have said), only if you can get a lot of practice with it. I consider the J frame a 1-7 yard handgun. I could never get a tight group with the J frame round butt.

My choice is a 4" Mod. 19 K frame .357 /.38 +P.

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Old 09-12-2016, 09:31 AM
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Went to the range Saturday morning and found out my lieutenant had invited a new shooter, a young lady who had never really had any training or shot much more than a .22. I normally, when asked, start people out with a 4 inch S&W Model 10 shooting .38 wadcutters. Turned out this young lady's hands were so small that she was cheating around the grip to even reach the trigger. She was easily able to reach the trigger on my S&W Model 642-2 and did pretty well after some instruction on how to use the sights. The 900 fps 158 grain RNFP reloads I had were a bit much, recoil wise, but the Remington 130 grain FMJ loads were not too rough on her. When she goes looking for a gun, it's going to be a J frame S&W in either .38 Spl or .32 HRM.

A J frame S&W (or similar other makes) with a snub barrel makes a lump in your pocket that doesn't scream "GUN!" like the angular shape of a semi-auto, IMHO. If you're going to carry one, carry two. They're small.
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Old 09-12-2016, 09:59 AM
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I consider the J frame a 1-7 yard handgun.
Considering essentially all civilian self-defense encounters occur within 7 yards, is that really a problem even if it's true?

Shouldn't we focus our defense training and choose our weapons accordingly based on what's most probable and what is most effective for those most likely scenarios?

The snub would indeed be a poor choice IMO as a primary for military and police work, which is largely proactive(pursue and intentionally intervene and engage), but for reactive(defensively responding to sudden close-quarter ambushes) civilian self-defense, it's the best tool in my opinion.

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Old 09-12-2016, 10:15 AM
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I carried a 5 shot 2" Model 36 for years then went to a full size 1911A1 until I got a 2.5" Model 66. Now, the 2.5" seldom gets out of the case as I wear a 4" Model 66. I've worn the 4" daily for several years now. It pretty much suits me.
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Old 09-13-2016, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
Considering essentially all civilian self-defense encounters occur within 7 yards, is that really a problem even if it's true?

Shouldn't we focus our defense training and choose our weapons accordingly based on what's most probable and what is most effective for those most likely scenarios?

The snub would indeed be a poor choice IMO as a primary for military and police work, which is largely proactive(pursue and intentionally intervene and engage), but for reactive(defensively responding to sudden close-quarter ambushes) civilian self-defense, it's the best tool in my opinion.
A lot of shooters here and elsewhere report that they don't care for the J frame. Yes, it will work at close range, but I prefer more versatility and controllability than I have experienced from a J frame. But whatever gets you through the night -- it's alright!

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Old 09-13-2016, 05:01 AM
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J-frames are quite good even at longer ranges. You lose some velocity and they require more skill to be effective at longer ranges than, say, a 6" K-frame, but they shouldn't be discounted out of hand. I'd always choose a full-size if given the choice, but unfortunately, we don't always have that choice.

---

To the OP's question:

Whatever you can operate with confidence. Revolver, striker-fired, DA/SA, SA pistol, whatever. Doesn't matter, so long as you can operate it.

People talk about advantages in reload time with pistols, for instance. I can tell you that most people cannot use that capability. This is the process I see frequently:

(1) Shoot gun empty.
(2) Attempt to squeeze trigger. Nothing.
(3) Turn gun sideways, observe slide locked back.
(4) Depress magazine release quickly. Magazine partially ejects and hangs up.
(5) Retrieve fresh magazine from pocket, bring it up to pistol, observe spent magazine hanging from pistol.
(6) While holding fresh magazine in off hand, use fingertips to pry spent magazine from gun.
(7) Gently insert fresh magazine.
(8) Place hand over slide, pull back, and ride the slide fully forward.
(9) Squeeze trigger. Click.
(10) Look at gun. Maybe play with slide.
(11) Push at magazine with offhand thumb.
(12) Rack slide gingerly, riding it fully forward until it stops just before locking closed.
(13) Squeeze trigger again. Nothing.
(14) Push slide forward with thumb.
(15) Squeeze trigger again. Maybe bang.

If you're keeping score, that's about everything wrong. Not because they're stupid or bad shooters or inexperienced, but because they've never tried to reload in a hurry and haven't practiced at all.

So--it doesn't matter what you've got. Even inexpensive CCW/SD guns are reliable and functional these days, if you put in the effort to learn how to run them.

You just have to know how. You're not gonna hurt it. Slingshot that slide, slam those magazines home. Don't just shoot the gun--operate it.
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Old 09-13-2016, 08:18 AM
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.38 Special for self defense

Most folks in the US look at the .380 ACP as the floor for self defense, and if you're expecting 12" penetration and expansion, then you're limited to one of the half dozen or so commercial loads using the 90 gr XTP at a muzzle velocity of ay least 1000-1050 fps, and that takes a minimum 3.5" barrel length to achieve.

How is that relevant to the .38 Special? Because there is no standard pressure .38 Special self defense load that I am aware of that will achieve 12" penetration and reasonable expansion when shot out of a 1 7/8" to 2 1/8" barrel. They might come close, but that's about it.

That flies in the face of popular wisdom that the .38 Special is an effective self defense round, based on decades of police use - but that track record was based on its performance in a 4" service revolver.

The .38 Special is still effective in a snub nose revolver, but you'll need to use a .38 +P load to gain back the loss in velocity due to the short barrel.

Snub nose .38s involve some compromises

Given the need for a .38 +P load, a lightweight alloy framed 5 shot .38 Special can be a bit sporty to shoot - enough that the shooter might not be wiling to practice with it enough, or frequently enough to master it well enough to shoot it effectively, and maintain that capability. That goes double if it has thin wood grips or an under sized boot grip.

The additional 5 ounces or so of weight in a steel frame 5 shot revolver like the J frame S&W 36 in .38 Special or the J-Magnum frame S&W Model 60 in .357 Magnum make them much more pleasant to shoot with a .38 +P load, particularly, if you use a good recoil absorbing rubber grip that is large enough to fit your hand.

The downside is that it will weight more and pocket carry becomes an issue, but in my experience a Model 36 or Model 60 in a well made IWB holster and a decent belt is extremely comfortable to carry - more so than most .380 ACP semi-auto pistols. That applies even to a Model 60 with a 3" barrel.

A 5 shot snub nose .38 Special is still an experts gun

It takes a fair amount of skill and a great deal of practice to get good with a .38 Special, even under ideal conditions, and it takes a lot more skill and practice to get good with it under real world conditions.

As a result:

1) most people shoot a 5 shot snub nose .38 revolver very badly;

2) consequently, most people badly underestimate what that same revolver can do in capable hands; and unfortunately,

3) many people badly over estimate what that revolver will be able to accomplish in their hands.

If you're going to shoot one, you need to commit to shooting it enough to master it, and should it often enough to maintain that capability as under extreme stress people will devolve to their lowest level of mastered training.

There is more to size than external dimensions.

It's deceiving to compare external height, weight, and width dimensions between semi-auto pistols and DA revolvers as a semi-auto pistol will contain a lot more volume within those same dimensions as it is fairly constant in thickness in the frame and slide, and the grip frame is larger to accommodate the magazine. In contrast a revolver only displays maximum thickness in the cylinder, while the grip and barrel are much thinner, with much less overall volume in those areas, allowing the revolver to conceal much better, even with slightly larger LxWxH dimensions.

A 2" or 3" K-frame sized revolver is often a better choice.

Most people can get to the point of shooting a K-frame sized 2" or 3" revolver proficiently much sooner than they can a J-frame, and all other things being equal they'll shoot the K-frame better under real world conditions.

The trade off is slightly larger size and about 7 oz more weight than a steel J-Magnum revolver with the same length barrel. It's that extra weight that substantially improves the shoot-ability of the K-frame, but that comes at the cost of all day cary comfort.

I don't have issues concealing a 3" Model 13, or a 2 3/4" Ruger Speed Six, but I do notice the weight after several hours where I don't notice the weight of a 3" Model 60.

Still, I prefer to carry the larger revolvers as I know I shoot them even better than a J-frame (and I'm a very good shot with a J-frame by nearly any standard).

I also prefer the larger K-frame as I can shoot it effectively with a 125 grain .357 Magnum load, again when using a good, recoil absorbing, rubber grip.

Semi-auto versus revolver

Practically speaking the odds that you'll ever be in a self defense shoot are very small, particularly as people who carry concealed also tend to have better situational awareness and do a better job of avoiding threatening situations before they develop. They also don't generally drink so they tend to have, and apply, much better judgement.

There's also the reality that a person who is displaying better SA, and who is establishing eye contact with a potential threat is less likely to be selected as a target by a criminal. Criminals looking for random victims generally don't target people who see them coming, and most criminals who've survived very long, have pretty good people reading skills. They might not know why you're not displaying the fear they expect, and might not even consciously realize it, but more often than not they'll heed the warning and move on.

Statistically, the vast majority of self defense shoots tend to be fair to face encounters at ranges of 5 yards or less, with 5 shots or less fired in 5 seconds or less. The FBI determined based on 12 years of data that 75% of their agent involved shoots compromised 3 shots or less at 3 yards or less - and these were agents who by definition get paid to hang out with bad guys in higher risk areas.

Consequently, the statistics suggest that the odds of a self defense shoot ever happening are low, and that the odds of a self defense shoot involving multiple assailants, or the mall ninja fantasy of confronting multiple armed terrorists is infinitesimally small.

That's a good thing as even a high capacity semi-auto is a very poor choice if you're facing multiple assailants with semi-auto rifles or carbines, and if you're in that situation, the odds are high that you're not going to survive the encounter. No one, and I mean no one, who has any clue at all would ever choose a pistol to take on multiple shooters with carbines.

What this all means is that there isn't any significant tactical advantage to having a high capacity semi-auto revolver over a 5 or 6 shot revolver in realistic, real world civilian self defense scenarios. Pick which ever one you are most comfortable with and then shoot it enough to get good with it.

Be aware however that small snub compact and micro semi-autos, while easy to carry are also largely expert guns as they are also rather difficult to shoot accurately. Plus, as noted above the .380 ACP isn't all that effective out of a barrel shorter than 3.5". Stepping up to a micro sized 9mm Para isn't necessarily the solution either as those pistols tend to be as difficult to shoot well as a small alloy frame revolver, due to the recoil involved.

Why advice from LEOs isn't always applicable to concealed carry.

As noted above, armed citizens should be defaulting to avoiding threatening situations in the first place and will only use a handgun to get them selves out of an unavoidable confrontation.

In contrast police officers get paid to go looking for trouble in dark and scary places, so their needs in a service pistol, and associated every day carry equipment are vastly different from those of an armed citizen. A high capacity semi-auto pistol with 2 spare magazines and 46 total rounds makes sense for an LEO, while that same load out is heavy and hard to conceal for an armed citizen with a concealed carry permit.

A revolver (usually) takes fewer shots to demonstrate reliability than a semi-auto pistol.

I've never been comfortable carrying a semi-auto pistol until I've put at least 200 rounds though it with zero malfunctions (using both the magazines I plan to carry with it). Semi-autos tend to require a bit of a break in period, and they can be very ammo sensitive, and you'll need a base number of rounds to achieve and verify reliability. Remember here that the shoot will be over in 5 seconds or less with 5 shots or less fired, so reliability is of prime importance and a tactical reload is probably never going to be needed.

Still, despite the reality that you'll probably never need the extra rounds, you generally want to carry at least one spare magazine just because in the event you do have a malfunction, and "tap, rack, bang" doesn't fix it, your fastest, most reliable way to get it back in action will involve dropping the magazine and inserting another one.

In contrast, the major threat to revolver reliability is having a bullet back out under recoil and jam the cylinder. This risk can be eliminated by testing your carry ammo in the revolver by leaving the same round in the cylinder after firing the other 4-5 shots in the cylinder and repeating until that round has been exposed to the recoil of 2-3 cylinders and then repeating this for 3-4 rounds.

If you plan for a reload in a revolver, the threats increase slightly by adding the potential for the brass to stick in the chambers, or a particle of powder residue getting under the ejector star and preventing the cylinder from going back into the frame. These threats can again be mangled by choosing a load that doesn't expand the brass to the point it sticks in the cylinder, and by using a load that doesn't use a colloidal ball powder that doesn't blast powder residue back toward the shooter.

Good practices, regardless of what you shoot.

1. A pistol or revolver that isn't on your person will be no use when you need it. Select a pistol that you can carry comfortably and that is easy to conceal, so that you can and will carry it all the time.

2. Select a pistol that you can also shoot well. Hands vary and not all pistols or revolvers fit people equally well.

3. Get good training.

4. Practice on a regular basis.

5. Expend your old carry ammo down range every 1-3 months to ensure you can shoot it well, and that it still functions properly in your pistol or revolver.

6. While the odds of having to do a tactical reload are very, very slight, rather than doing administrative reloads, make every reload a tactical reload. The practice won't hurt, and might come in handy, and if you shoot a revolver, you'll discover just how fast you can reload a revolver with a speed loader and the FBI, Universal, or Stress Fire reload methods.
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Old 09-13-2016, 09:13 AM
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Sometimes it's easy to get confused by the endless overthink on the subject of gun carry.

It's been my experience that size and weight are the biggest obstacles to gun carry. My suggestion is to purchase a gun that you're willing to carry. Otherwise, nothing else makes any difference.

For those who are not familiar with guns nor intend to be, a light weight 5 shot revolver is simple and easy to use, and small enough that you'll likely be willing to carry. Suggest S&W 642 or Ruger LCR. They are a bit punishing to practice with but most folks who aren't into guns aren't going to practice much anyway. That's not an endorsement, it's just a fact.

If you find the 5 shot revolver still too big and heavy to carry take a look at the small .380s, S&W Bodyguard or Ruger LCP. If you are weak person with weak hands these will be poor choices for you.

Good luck.

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Old 09-13-2016, 10:11 AM
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Well one of the departed greats (Jordan, Cooper, Skelton, Askins) do not remember which said the first rule of a gunfight is to bring a gun.

That my friends is paramount. Of course a lot depend on where you are, where going, what you’re going to do, your dress, the weather, your occupation! There is no right or wrong answer to what I or you should be carrying!

Remember that most of us are not LEO, and should not be getting involved in things that do not concern us unless it involves an innocent getting killed. Of course those situations do not happen that much.

When was the last time you pulled a gun or shot someone to protect another person? The gun (whatever it is) is should be there to protect you and your family so carry what you like; the odds are great you will never need it. Of course just like some people hit the Powerball, there are times you will have to pull and shoot, but if you’re not a LEO not many.

Years back I was an instructor for the pre issue Pistol Permit class required by my county judge. There were a lot of things that we taught some of it was regarding law and one of my biggies was to stress that they issue you a permit to CARRY a concealed weapon, not a permit to fire it. Be smart and understand the law, a lot of your future depends on that!

Speaking for me I have been carrying since early 1970s, only twice did I ever have a gun in my hand and close to pulling the trigger. Heck one was outside my own house!
Both situations worked out OK. (Cleared by the cops) Both times the gun was a model 60.

I tend now at age71 to regularly carry a bodyguard.380 in a pocket holster, and if going to the city or other dangerous areas other than my peaceful rural area I have XDs45 in an IWBH. If these were ever used best bet it will be very up close, like a carjacking or mugging attempt well under the well-known 7 yard “rule”
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Old 09-13-2016, 11:05 AM
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He gave you some very good general advice. I do think that .357 mag. in a small revolver is over the top for most folks, and premium ammo these days makes the old .38 Special pretty effective teamed with a well-trained trigger finger. Cops are a pretty opinionated bunch, so as always, one size doesn't fit all. I would suggest whatever you decide upon, learn to shoot it. Double-action shooting be it with a revolver or semi-auto requires a lot of dedication to get it right. As far as cops, in general, not being gun people, well that is true, but mostly today, they all get much more training than in the past. Recently I was exposed to two guys (not law enforcement) who carry .22 LR semi-auto pistols. One had to show me his super ammo. It was Aguila SSS Sniper Subsonic .22 rimfire ammo with a 60 grain bullet. I asked him if he had shot it in his pistol. He said he hadn't . I said, well, you know that is subsonic ammo. He said, "That's good, huh?" I burst his bubble with my answer. I said, I'm not sure it will feed through your pistol. So yes, cops aren't gun experts, but many folks who carry haven't a clue, either.
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Old 09-13-2016, 12:54 PM
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I find I carry my 340 M&P loaded with Buffalo Bore 158gr.+P LSWCHP (FBI load in +P) most often. I can also load with Gold Dot 135 SB .357 mag. However, I'm not averse to carrying an auto, either. It may be a Shield .45, a Combat Commander, a Glock 19 or a Glock 26. I have trust in all of them and they can all be concealed, depending on what you are wearing.

If you're set on CCW with a revolver, a compact Colt or S&W work great. As I said above, I prefer the 340 M&P, but any J-frame in .38 or .357 (or maybe .327) will work well for most. I ALWAYS carry a couple of reloads, usually speed loaders or speed strips (or both, depending on where I intend to be).
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Old 09-13-2016, 01:19 PM
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I find I carry my 340 M&P loaded with Buffalo Bore 158gr.+P LSWCHP (FBI load in +P) most often. I can also load with Gold Dot 135 SB .357 mag. However, I'm not averse to carrying an auto, either. It may be a Shield .45, a Combat Commander, a Glock 19 or a Glock 26. I have trust in all of them and they can all be concealed, depending on what you are wearing.

If you're set on CCW with a revolver, a compact Colt or S&W work great. As I said above, I prefer the 340 M&P, but any J-frame in .38 or .357 (or maybe .327) will work well for most. I ALWAYS carry a couple of reloads, usually speed loaders or speed strips (or both, depending on where I intend to be).
Snowman I started (early 1970s) out carrying a model 60 for years and a bunch of other guns after that. I'm now carrying a bodyguard .380 but seriously thinking of going back to a revolver for casual carry! I will still carry my XDs.45 when going into the bigger cities about 50 miles away. I now only go to those cities a couple times a year since I moved out of there for reasons!

It did not make your list but I rather like the little Ruger LCR.38. I got it a couple months ago and i have put over 700 rounds through it, some of them serious +P stuff. I also have a older dick special 2"38, a early shrouded Cobra 2''.38 a 642non lock and the a fore mentioned 60. If I go back it will be with the Ruger. I tried it and it sort of fits a bodyguard inside pocket holster well enough that it draws OK and is well concealed. Of course if I carry it I will get the right pocket holster and a IWB. I tried my J frame holsters and while their close no cigar.
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Old 09-13-2016, 02:27 PM
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Test them and see what works for you. Took a class and the deputy sheriff told us the revolver is less likely to jam, but if it does more likely you can't fix it (i.e. tap and rack). Interesting considerations. I like revolvers but figure its probably good to know both a revolver and a semi (9mm). Just bought a CZ75 p01 in 9mm to learn, and I have my eye on a wicked looking 66-5 S&W 3.5" revolver ... Nice Vette btw-

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Old 09-13-2016, 11:32 PM
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Snowman I started (early 1970s) out carrying a model 60 for years and a bunch of other guns after that. I'm now carrying a bodyguard .380 but seriously thinking of going back to a revolver for casual carry! I will still carry my XDs.45 when going into the bigger cities about 50 miles away. I now only go to those cities a couple times a year since I moved out of there for reasons!

It did not make your list but I rather like the little Ruger LCR.38. I got it a couple months ago and i have put over 700 rounds through it, some of them serious +P stuff. I also have a older dick special 2"38, a early shrouded Cobra 2''.38 a 642non lock and the a fore mentioned 60. If I go back it will be with the Ruger. I tried it and it sort of fits a bodyguard inside pocket holster well enough that it draws OK and is well concealed. Of course if I carry it I will get the right pocket holster and a IWB. I tried my J frame holsters and while their close no cigar.
The Rugers seem to be gaining popularity. I'm just a bit nostalgic when it comes to my J-Frames. I recently was able to talk an old partner into trading me a no-dash M60 I sold him the the 80's. I just bead blasted it and cleaned her up. I imagine I'll end up carrying her again in the not too distant future.
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Old 09-14-2016, 12:28 AM
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We've had some doctoral dissertations here, but I'll keep this brief.

I'm a hell of a lot closer to eighty than seventy and my hands are clumsy with arthritis. I carry an all-steel J-frame, a 640 in .38 Special, and have for years. Sold my last autoloader, a Glock 19, a long time ago. Simplicity of operation and no concerns about limp-wristing are important

I'm content with the J, with the equivalent (Buffalo Bore) of the FBI load that has worked well for decades. I feel adequately armed for my very quiet, don't-get-out-much life in retirement.

On the other hand, I've considered adding a Ruger LCP .380 for dress occasions. So sue me.
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Old 09-14-2016, 01:23 AM
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A snub-nosed revolver for CCW is a proven, solid choice, but it's not your only choice. And that's the problem. We have many, MANY choices these days. It can be overwhelming to consider all the options. It all depends on your method of carry, your lifestyle, your budget, your time and dedication to practice, and the list goes on and on. Start by making a list of the requirements dictated by your unique situation.

I will say that I carry a J-Frame Airweight Centennial probably 90% of the time. But that's me. And it's doubtful you are exactly like me. So take that for what it's worth. However, I'm of the opinion that even if you don't carry one, learning the fundamentals on a snubby revolver, especially a 5-shot, will transfer those skills to most any handgun you would like to carry. On the other hand, trying to learn the fundamentals with something like a Ruger LCP will be less productive and less satisfying. The learning curve is just too steep to be rewarding enough to practice regularly. Obviously, I dig revolvers. I think everyone should own at least one, so a snubby wouldn't be a bad place to start.
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Old 09-14-2016, 08:49 AM
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Wow,this is an interesting discussion! It must really confuse a beginner! ME,I keep it simple,I am blessed ,I own a # of guns & can carry what I want.When I was "younger"it was full sized 1911 45cal.Then as I got "much"older my ccw became smaller.I ccw a S&W model 60 no dash,a S&W model 351pd,a H&K PSP 9mm.& a Kimber Pro carry 2.These are what I choose to carry(not all at once )!I practice with them all & the main word here is PRACTICE!!So,find what you like practice ,practice,practice.It's what" you" like not the gun gurus or police or flavor of the month club.
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Old 09-14-2016, 10:34 AM
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[QUOTE=cmort666;139245595]Your requirements should determine what you carry.
-----
Now, you've got animals gibbering "Aloha snackbar!" and shooting everybody in sight or cutting off heads. I switched first to a Glock 19, then to a 3 1/2" M1911.
[QUOTE]

If I'm not at work, it is not my job to hunt those sorts down. Take cover, look for a way out, and, if you need to engage, accuracy is what counts, not round count. A revolver works for me.
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Old 09-14-2016, 02:04 PM
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.38 Spl. (or 9MM) are minimums. Personally, I feel more confident
carrying .357 Magnum. I like a little more weight on account of recoil.
But placement is most important. Shoot what you can hit with under
stress. SP101 with Crimson Trace and Golden Sabers works for me.
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Old 09-14-2016, 02:13 PM
BigBill BigBill is offline
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Bought a ruger security six snub nose in '76 with a 2 3/4" barrel in 357 mag. Carry it off and on its my out to dinner gun. If your going to carry a 38 special revolver I'd get a 357 mag and shoot the 38 specials out of it.
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Old 09-14-2016, 02:22 PM
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Lots of folks will tell you that most LEOs are not gun experts. Well, a lot of gun experts are not gun experts either. They mention what works for them. Me, I like revolvers but I started with them over 50 years ago. I have tried the 1911 and found it a bit complicated for me. I did carry a S&W 3913 as a back up when in uniform but the handgun I prefer is a revolver. Will a 38 S&W Special do the trick? Sure, if the shots go where they need to be placed. Are there other cartridges that will also work? Same answer.

If you mention a cartridge, someone, somewhere will be able to cite an example of when it worked and right away someone else will cite when it failed.

I got to talk with a few Medical Examiners and Coroners. Those that carried often carried a 38 S&W Special loaded with wadcutters.

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  #46  
Old 09-14-2016, 03:23 PM
Lee's Landing Billy Lee's Landing Billy is offline
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You'll figure it out. It may cost a little money but you'll figure it out. There is never a week that goes by that somebody comes here to shoot everything to figure it out. All at NO cost to them. It's the least I can do. I too used to think that the first rule of gunfighting was to have a gun, but I was lucky to read on this forum one day that the first rule of gunfighting was...NOT TO GET SHOT. He was right. Choose your weapon carefully but always be aware and always have a plan. Of those three things the one you can do without is the weapon. I wish you were near, you could figure it out cost free. Carry every step, shoot every day.
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  #47  
Old 09-15-2016, 12:23 PM
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Over the years, I've carried a lot of different guns. Started with a Colt Commander after overdosing on Jeff Cooper's writings. A short period of financial hardship resulted in a Hi Standard Sentinel 9 shot .22 with a 5 inch barrel (shot squirrels with it, too!). That was followed by an Iver Johnson .38 S&W double action with a 5 inch barrel before the Army got me and gave me a series of .45 autos (Cooper would have been proud!) and a few Beretta M9s. Also during that time span, I had a personal .45 (Brazilian contract), a nickel-plated 3 inch square butt Model 36, a Charter Arms Bulldog .44, a Beretta Model 71 .22, a 4 inch S&W Model 629, a CZ-75, a 3 inch S&W Model 65, and a 3 inch Colt Detective Special. After retiring I had a brief flirtation with a Glock 23 before returning to sanity with a 3 inch S&W Model 13-3. A KelTec P32 made a brief appearance (until I shot it over a Chrony) and a neighbor gave me a S&W Model 681. I picked up a S&W Model 10-5, and a trade resulted in nickel-plated S&W Model 37. I all but stole a S&W Model 642-2, swapped for a S&W Model 12-2, and won't talk about the cowboy guns or the 1895 Nagant.

After all that, I carry an issued 4 inch S&W Model 686-6 in a duty holster with the Model 12-2 in one cargo pocket and the Model 642-2 in the other at work. Off duty the 642-2 rides the off side pocket or OWB with the Model 12-2 spending most of the time strong side (replacing the Model 13-3 which just got heavy). The Model 681 was claimed by my wife after I put Crimson Trace grips on it ("a nice, little gun for my wife"). On occasion, the Model 13-3 takes the strong side with the Model 642-2 or the Model 12-2 off side.

Most of my carry ammo is of the Speer 135 grain "Short Barrel" variety in .357 or .38. Buffalo Bore makes an occasional appearance if I'm feeling flush with it's time to rotate carry ammo.

FWIW, I'm 64 looking at retirement into private investigations. Figure I'll be the new Barnaby Jones.
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  #48  
Old 10-01-2016, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by NYlakesider View Post
No disrespect to our LEOs on here intended as they are gun people. I learned long ago not to put too much faith in what many cops say about guns in general or gun laws.(do your own research on that subject, gun laws) FWIW I live in the Northern part of the peoples republic of NY.

Many cops are not gun people and if fact to them the gun is just a part of their uniform.(especially in a anti gun state like NY is)

OP carry what you want. Most anything good quality .38/9MM or better will do you fine. Get it, practice a lot with it.
No disrespect taken, I try to be well versed in the gun laws of my state, if I am asked a question and don't know the answer, that's my answer. I try to put the person in touch with someone who can answer their question if I can't. As far as it being part of my uniform( I'm a Detective and haven't been "in the bag" in years), that's an ink pen, my gun is mine and possibly my partners life or an innocent citizen. If the cops where you live don't think that way I don't know what to say except it's shameful. I've never felt that way and I'm in my 15th year.

As far as what gun to carry, well let me polish my badge and give you my expert opinion , carry what you like, can afford and are comfortable with. Train with it like your life may depend on it. If you can take a training course and if you want obtain your concealed carry permit and of course buy another firearm!
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  #49  
Old 10-03-2016, 08:28 AM
Lobster Picnic Lobster Picnic is offline
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I think the revolver idea is best because of simplicity and reliability. The controls are simple - pull the trigger. No safety, no racking of slides, no magazine release, no worry about limp-wristing, no worry about contact shots.

Also, almost every ND is with a semi-auto pistol. Revolvers are safer, especially for the casual shooter.
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Old 10-04-2016, 11:42 AM
RAMON HARDESTY RAMON HARDESTY is offline
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no disrespect but I believe that the j frame is quit a gun ! I have three ! I also believe the Automatic is also a great gun ! So allow the person that is carrying it to think fo himself !
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Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
People think cops are experts on guns. They aren't. No disrespect to the fine coppers here, but even they will tell you the same.

There is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't carry a semi auto.

Now that that's cleared up.......

A J frame 38 is a very popular choice. Easy to conceal and operate. Adequate for self defense. But you must practice.

There's much to choose from and you don't need anything more than a 38. Smith 642/442. Ruger LCR.
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