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Old 09-16-2016, 01:38 AM
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Default Equipment, caliber or training?

I see lots of threads asking about holsters.
I see lots of threads asking which is the best tiny gun to carry.
I see lots of threads debating (arguing at the top of their lungs) what's the best caliber.

I rarely see threads on how to shoot better or what's the best training.

Why is that? Isn't being able to use the gun more important than how cool it looks in a holster?
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Old 09-16-2016, 01:42 AM
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Training comes first.
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Old 09-16-2016, 01:53 AM
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Nobody wants to admit they suck.

Also you're kind've limited to whatever instructors work in your area, unless you're willing and able to travel.

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Old 09-16-2016, 02:11 AM
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The gentleman who trained me instructed special forces. The first thing he did was to place a full target in front of me and then asked to rapidly fire. The safest place was the target. I quickly learned I need training. To not admit you suck is very dangerous, to both you and any bystanders. PS. I had the cleanest 1911 you ever saw. He taught me how to detail strip not field strip. You guessed it, I cleaned it every time I made a mistake by detail stripping.

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Old 09-16-2016, 02:45 AM
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Maybe some "suck" at shooting, as someone posted but
most of us do not.

Maybe because 999,999 out of 1,000,000 people are not
trying to be Doug Koenig or Rob Leatham.

We own our guns for shooting, hunting, self defense.
We have no interest in seeing who is the fastest among us.
We don't care if someone else can "score" better on a target
because we know there is no real practice available for being
shot back at.
We realize it will be the folks who talk the loudest about their
"abilities" and scores, are the ones who will probably get iced first in
a real gun battle.
We CAN hit what we aim at and are happy. Because we grew up
around guns and have shot them from an early age and realize
it's a tool to be used for fun, or putting meat on the table.
We have never worked as a Mall Cop or felt the need to be "trained"
or "certified" by one to be content.

Have fun with it and remember, this is not the TV show
The Walking Dead.


Chuck
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Old 09-16-2016, 03:27 AM
Mike in Reedley Mike in Reedley is offline
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The vast majority of questions and information posted here and other like forums main purpose is to feed the ego. Once in a while a legitimate question will be asked, but truth be known that valid question has been asked and answered numerous times in the past and forever lives in the archives.

We ask questions and provide answers hoping to have our knowledge appreciated and to have others see the validity of our beliefs. We probably also hope to a lesser extent, to find the opportunity to identify others mistakes. I have several fire extinguishers, first aid kits and other safety items, but it's no fun to write about them.

With all that being said, I love this forum and I'm on here a half dozen times a day. I really like pics of vintage handguns and holsters, even I no longer have a useful need for or the physical ability to use anymore. I look at pics, read articles and buy even more stuff that I don't need. Keep it coming, may it last forever.
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Old 09-16-2016, 05:31 AM
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Default Since is the concealed carry/self defense forum...

....I should address it from that angle. So I will.

I can wield Excalibur and not know a damn thing about using it in a self defense situation. Cool hardware isn't worth a dime if you are taken aback to the point where your can't function. And being an American and owning a gun doesn't make you any kind of 'expert'. There are people here that know and understand the value of training and I listen to them not only when it concerns self defense, but whatever discipline it takes to be a better shooter or any of a dozen aspects of gun ownership. This forum is extremely comprehensive in its make up, but you have to ask the right questions and listen when somebody speaks on an issue that's important. There are plenty of places where people do that, but it seems that the question of 'which gun is better' dominates most people's thinking.

Look at the thread, "An honest assessment of my shooting" and see how many people offered excellent advice on how to train and improve my SD shooting with DAO guns. I think that the last entry I made was acknowledging that work and discipline pays off.
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Old 09-16-2016, 06:54 AM
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I take training courses but not as much as I should. The last one about a month ago really opened my eyes to the fact I need much more.

There's nothing like being put under pressure, moving and firing, reloading and firing from awkward positions, including retention firing... well except a real gun fight which I hope to avoid.
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Old 09-16-2016, 08:38 AM
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Equipment and caliber are relatively low hanging fruit compared to bettering yourself with training. Add to it the years of watching gun play in TV/movies and there are tons of people that believe in handgun "stopping power". It's just the way humans are until the lightbulb clicks and makes one think otherwise.
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Old 09-16-2016, 08:56 AM
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Training is difficult and on-going.. Buying a holster is easy....
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Old 09-16-2016, 10:44 AM
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Well, let's see...... Rastoff has either slapped me upside the head or issued me a challenge. I take it as a challenge, even though birthdays, shaky hands, failing eye sight and lack of funds, make it harder to do. I would like to go to the range with him and wear him out, but it's not gonna happen. I accepted his "Throwing Down the Gauntlet" challenge, but have only posted a target that will either make you laugh or cry, depending on your outlook. In doing so I have become a better shot, can put them on paper in the right area, learned much better trigger control and generally improved my shooting ability.

A new "Shooters Alley" has opened not very far away and they offer training classes, but that and lane time are beyond my budget. So even though I can't spend as much time in training or shooting as I would like, I can still browse this and other forums looking at beautiful Smiths and other weapons and "digging up memories," without breaking the budget.

I do admire Rastoff and others that push training and related activities so please don't stop.

Have a blessed day,

Leon
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Old 09-16-2016, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
I see lots of threads asking about holsters.
I see lots of threads asking which is the best tiny gun to carry.
I see lots of threads debating (arguing at the top of their lungs) what's the best caliber.

I rarely see threads on how to shoot better or what's the best training.

Why is that? Isn't being able to use the gun more important than how cool it looks in a holster?
I always figured it was something like this \/
Quote:
Originally Posted by chud333 View Post
Maybe some "suck" at shooting, as someone posted but
most of us do not.

Maybe because 999,999 out of 1,000,000 people are not
trying to be Doug Koenig or Rob Leatham.

We own our guns for shooting, hunting, self defense.
We have no interest in seeing who is the fastest among us.
We don't care if someone else can "score" better on a target
because we know there is no real practice available for being
shot back at.
We realize it will be the folks who talk the loudest about their
"abilities" and scores, are the ones who will probably get iced first in
a real gun battle.
We CAN hit what we aim at and are happy. Because we grew up
around guns and have shot them from an early age and realize
it's a tool to be used for fun, or putting meat on the table.
We have never worked as a Mall Cop or felt the need to be "trained"
or "certified" by one to be content.

Have fun with it and remember, this is not the TV show
The Walking Dead.


Chuck

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Old 09-16-2016, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
I see lots of threads asking about holsters.
I see lots of threads asking which is the best tiny gun to carry.
I see lots of threads debating (arguing at the top of their lungs) what's the best caliber.

I rarely see threads on how to shoot better or what's the best training.

Why is that? Isn't being able to use the gun more important than how cool it looks in a holster?
EVERYONE has an argument for why their fav. caliber is best...
MOST love a beautiful holster...
MANY are interested in having a good sub-compact pocket pistol
-however-
FEW are they with a serious interest in mastering (or just becoming competent) in the use of their chosen weapon, despite its obvious importance.
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Old 09-16-2016, 12:26 PM
Ballistic147 Ballistic147 is offline
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I think both holster choice and gun choice are important factors when considering carry options. A bad decision in either will result in most folks not carrying at all. It's a fact that the majority of CCW permit holders here in NC rarely if ever carry and sometimes I wonder if these choices factor into to that. That being said, once you have decided on the best carry set up for your own personal situation I agree that training should be first on the list.

I'm very fortunate to have my own personal shooting range. No fees or yearly dues, no waiting for an open lane, and best of all I shoot how and when I want. I'm also lucky to have a job that affords me the resources to buy all the stuff necessary to be able to shoot but it takes up a good portion of my time. Add to that my responsibilities of owning a home and taking care of day to day tasks that eats into my shooting time and I don't get to shoot as often as I would like so I try to make my time shooting as productive as possible. Definitely not a bad shot and can keep at least 90% of shots in center mass but there is always room for improvement. My hope is that all of this is a waste of time and that I will never have to use these skills in a "real world" scenario but I want to know that I'm as prepared as possible.
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Old 09-16-2016, 12:47 PM
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"Nobody wants to admit they suck" is more of an offhand way of saying,

"Nobody wants to admit they they have shortcomings and need help, because we're mostly guys and we're supposed to be born knowing this stuff, right? Because clearly, if you admit that you're not shooting to the best of your physical limitations and equipment, that means you're less of a man.

So most people are instead more happy to discuss holsters and guns and ammunition endlessly."

But the gauntlet has been thrown, and now I have to go off on a tangent--

I didn't say, "most people suck", I said, "Nobody wants to admit they suck."

However, most people suck. I see a lot of shooters, some of whom can even hit things. Maybe 1 in 3 can fire accurately, reload smoothly (note I didn't say "quickly", I said and mean "smoothly), shoot with speed when necessary, and shoot well under pressure.

You might not suck. Hey, you might even be right.

Now--is that a good thing?

Being "good" means you're shooting inside your comfort zone. You're not learning anything new. You're not stretching your abilities. Whether that's sticking to 7 yards, never practicing reloads, or shooting carefully and with precision, you're not giving yourself room to grow.

To put it bluntly, if you never miss, what are you learning?

That's not horrible, in and of itself. That's just the way gun people are. We shoot for fun, and we have more fun when we shoot well. Coaching yourself along to a goal requires a healthy dose of masochism. Let me tell you--it's gonna really, really suck.

And that's what a coach or instructor does for you. They push you outside your comfort zone, analyze your shooting, identify your weaknesses, and guide you towards correcting them with the right exercises and instruction.

It's got nothing to do with "certifications". I've always chuckled heartily at those things. It's got nothing to do with competition, although competition (both precision and action shooting) has lessons to offer.

It's purely a matter of pursuing and perfecting your craft, whatever that may be, for whatever reason you pursue it. Learning to shoot well isn't a finite goal. You don't "finish" one day. You keep moving the target back.

Anything less is selling yourself short. It's just the worst thing you can do to yourself. You've got no idea how far, how fast, or how small you can hit.
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Old 09-16-2016, 01:11 PM
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I wouldn't trust training advice from randoms online that I don't know. For proper training if you're not LE or MIL you have to research the good schools and courses.
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Old 09-16-2016, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chud333 View Post
Maybe some "suck" at shooting, as someone posted but most of us do not.
This thread is not about whether or not anyone is a great shot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chud333 View Post
We CAN hit what we aim at and are happy. Because we grew up around guns and have shot them from an early age and realize it's a tool to be used for fun, or putting meat on the table.

Chuck
This is exactly my point, but in reverse. Because we grew up around guns we become complacent. This is not the "Have Fun With It" forum. This is the "Concealed Carry & Self-Defense" forum. With that in mind, we need to concern ourselves with being the best we can be. We owe it to us and those around us to know what we're doing and to know what we can't do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballistic147
I think both holster choice and gun choice are important factors when considering carry options. A bad decision in either will result in most folks not carrying at all.
I agree, but I think they are lower in the list than being able to use said gun. Let me ask a very unpopular question; if they can't use their gun effectively, is it a bad thing they don't carry it?
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Old 09-16-2016, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballistic147 View Post
I think both holster choice and gun choice are important factors when considering carry options. A bad decision in either will result in most folks not carrying at all. It's a fact that the majority of CCW permit holders here in NC rarely if ever carry and sometimes I wonder if these choices factor into to that. That being said, once you have decided on the best carry set up for your own personal situation I agree that training should be first on the list.

I'm very fortunate to have my own personal shooting range. No fees or yearly dues, no waiting for an open lane, and best of all I shoot how and when I want.
It's also true in Michigan and I suspect in MOST states, that the majority of those with license to ccw - don't carry. and gun or holster choice has nothing to do with it.
Many are probably like my wife - they know they don't have the stomach to shoot someone. She CAN shoot...but depends on me when we're together and her pepper spray when we're not.

In our circle of friends almost everyone (husbands AND wives)has a CPL, yet most of the wives and many of the husbands don't carry - at all! I sometimes get chided about the amount of time I spend at the range and what I spend on taking classes and I usually reply in jest with something like - "Yeah, I know I should train more!"

P.S. What's the address again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Let me ask a very unpopular question; if they can't use their gun effectively, is it a bad thing they don't carry it?
No, that's a good thing because I may be in the area and I DON'T WANT TO GET SHOT!
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Old 09-16-2016, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
. This is the "Concealed Carry & Self-Defense" forum. With that in mind, we need to concern ourselves with being the best we can be. We owe it to us and those around us to know what we're doing and to know what we can't do.
An instructor such as yourself might be obsessed with being the very best with a gun you can possibly be, but most folks find a baseline of knowledge and skills that suit them. That's it. "Practice" is more about enjoying the hobby of guns than a work session to improve self defense skills.

As a practical matter... it's extremely unlikely that shooting someone with a carry gun in self defense will ever occur in average Joe's lifetime. However, folks buy guns and ammo and holsters. It makes perfect sense to me that these things are far more popular in discussion.

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Old 09-16-2016, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
I agree, but I think they are lower in the list than being able to use said gun.
You're absolutely right, maybe I didn't word that as well as I should have. While training and being able to use a gun should be on the top of the list, if you're not going to put forth the effort to find a good holster that you will actually wear along with a gun that you will carry there is no need to train to use a gun that you will never have with you.

Quote:
Let me ask a very unpopular question; if they can't use their gun effectively, is it a bad thing they don't carry it?
According to the second amendment, a well regulated militia defined at that time means the militia should be in proper working order. In todays terms that would mean the firearm should be kept in proper working order as well as the person carrying it should know how to properly and efficiently use it. There are quite a few folks that can legally own a firearm but probably have no business being anywhere near one. I think we all know at least one person that falls under this category. So no, I don't think it's bad that these people don't carry.

There are a lot of LEO's that only fire their gun during qualification whether that's annual or semi annual. Maybe a hundred or two rounds a year at the most. I'm not bashing officers at all because I have the utmost respect for them but you would think a person in that position that is way more likely to need those skills would train more than an average guy like me.
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Old 09-16-2016, 03:08 PM
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For the most part, it usually seems that people are more inclined to find immediate gratification in being able to buy something out of a box, whether it be a particular make/model/caliber of gun, ammunition in the flavor-of-the-month (or a cool looking box), or a holster.

You can look at those things, being objects, and admire them. There's no requirement for being able to actually use them. They're just something to admire, and maybe even give someone "confidence" in the manner of a talisman. A new type of rabbit's foot or 4-leaf clover, so to speak.

Knowledge and skillset doesn't come in a neat box. It's hard-earned.

Of course, it's also perishable, and usually requires some attention and "maintenance" on the part of the gun owner.

Far easier to just be able to hold and look at the gun, holster and ammunition ... and feel comforted.

Hey, some folks do much the same thing looking at their colored belt ranking/certificate in some martial art, and risk becoming complacent and out-of-practice in maintaining their hard-earned skill ... and some of those folks may have also complicated matters by having originally developed an over-inflated sense of ability and unjustified confidence in their ability, in the first place.
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Old 09-16-2016, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastbolt;139252451 and some of [I
those[/I] folks may have also complicated matters by having originally developed an over-inflated sense of ability and unjustified confidence in their ability, in the first place.
I suspect there are more of those people than there are people that are actually good. Larry
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Old 09-16-2016, 03:57 PM
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FWIW, my own training journal is being kept elsewhere. I mostly read here, not post.

First, my handgun goals are mixed. I am interested in: EDC, general handgun proficiency and competition as a measure of that proficiency/as reassurance I have EDC capabilities.

Given that, I view this as a manufacturer's forum, not a handgun training, concealed carry or EDC forum. I don't deliberately look for training or EDC specific threads or posts here, but read them when I come across them. Then I take what is useful or interesting and go elsewhere with it - to use or to ask questions about. There are at least a half-dozen other forums that I do read daily/regularly for general handgun training, concealed carry and/or EDC stuff - and at least 2 I read for competition-related things. None are perfect; none are complete in and of themselves for what I am interested in.

YMMV
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Old 09-16-2016, 04:01 PM
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Slight departure from the OP here:
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Originally Posted by drmweaver2 View Post
...[U]I view this as a manufacturer's forum...
You do realize this is a private site and not affiliated with S&W, right?
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Old 09-16-2016, 04:08 PM
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Slight departure from the OP here:You do realize this is a private site and not affiliated with S&W, right?
Not really. Then again, perhaps I should have said "it is S&W-specific" rather than "a manufacturer's forum"...which relates to my perspective regardless of who runs/owns it.

My point still stands. He asked why there aren't more posts related to training and EDC. I responded why I don't post or ask questions about those things here. To be more clear/accurate, in the first case, I don't have the experience to post anything useful to anyone else training-wise. In the second case, I don't expect to find answers to my questions here that I can't or haven't already found elsewhere.

Added:
But I do and have posted things directly related to my questions about S&W equipment I own or how to use that equipment (ex., what ammo does/doesn't shoot well with my M&P .22LR) - but that's in a different sub-forum.
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Old 09-16-2016, 04:12 PM
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Hey, some folks do much the same thing looking at their colored belt ranking/certificate in some martial art, and risk becoming complacent and out-of-practice in maintaining their hard-earned skill ... and some of those folks may have also complicated matters by having originally developed an over-inflated sense of ability and unjustified confidence in their ability, in the first place.
Well now that's a whole different subject right there, isn't it?
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Old 09-16-2016, 04:24 PM
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I rarely see threads on how to shoot better or what's the best training.

Why is that? Isn't being able to use the gun more important than how cool it looks in a holster?
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I'm a certified instructor for concealed or open carry and a Level III shooting instructor generally by virtue of a Texas issued license. That doesn't make me the best shot in America or the best instructor - it just means I'm qualified to teach. In that vein, I think I'm perfectly qualified to tell you the following:

1. I cannot teach you very much in an email or in a discussion thread. Shooting is practical and should be taught hands on. I can tell you about breath and trigger control, front sights, etc., but without a gun and hands on instruction it's just words and there are plenty of books with these words. Anyone can read them and learn to shoot - if they go to a range with a gun and practice what they read. Guess what - the Army taught me how to shoot a rifle. Based on that, and books I read, I taught myself how to shoot a handgun. Lots of rounds downrange and practice - practicing what I read - made me a good shot.

HAND ON TEACHING LATER - with qualified instructors - made me a great shot. But I couldn't have gotten there from reading threads in a Forum like this.

So, "how to shoot better" - practice is always the key. Reading about the fundamentals, and then the additional points above fundamentals, still means you have to shoot a lot to be good. And none of that teaches you how to handle yourself in a desperate situation - mental preparation is very different.

2. I can tell you about my training and who trained me but is that the best training? I don't know. Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, and many others are probably better and which is the best is hard to say. So there is no real answer to the best training question.

3. How guns look in holsters is a part of being a shooter and collector. If you're carrying concealed you can have a 1000 dollar hand tooled holster - nobody will know. Except you. If it makes you happy - great. It has nothing whatever to do with your skills. But if the holster is the correct design, carries and/or conceals properly, can be utilized efficiently and quickly in an emergency, then you're talking "cool" in a practical sense because it is REALLY COOL to survive a desperate situation.

Just ask around - there are plenty of survivors on this Forum.


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Old 09-16-2016, 05:24 PM
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F
Far easier to just be able to hold and look at the gun, holster and ammunition ... and feel comforted.
Well sure. For most folks the only thing a carry gun will ever provide during a lifetime of carry is peace of mind. Pursuant to that reality, there's a lot of discussion about things like gun caliber and ammo type to satisfy that peace of mind.

In my opinion, most all of it is hobby-overthink including chasing highly developed shooting skills for average Joe carry.

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Old 09-16-2016, 05:38 PM
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I'm a drummer. Been playing for 16 years.
In the drum forums it's the same. Endless and heated discussions on drumheads, sticks, brands, sizes, you name it...

The "lessons and technique" subforum barely gets noticed.

There's people who own $5000+ kits and cannot for the life of them even tune them. And guys with $300 kits who can sound almost exactly like a pro recording artist.

Bottom line..
Mastering anything is hard. It takes time, effort and dedication. And it's boring. Nobody wants to share or listen how someone sat down and played rudiments for two hours or how yesterday at practice he improved his trigger control.

Also, it's also pretty easy to acquire mediocre ('acceptable') level in almost anything and be 'above average' and be known as the 'gun guy' (even though honestly you most likely suck).

I suppose most of us reach that comfort level and then just buy things and share opinions and enjoy and have fun. And here we are.

With that being said I'm gonna look at some Revolver vs Semi-Auto threads now. Bye.

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Old 09-16-2016, 05:56 PM
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I feel that the OP has posted a very valid observation.

I consider myself a decent shot, not as good as I was before becoming disabled, but getting there. One of the greatest lessons I have learned as a result of being disabled, is that I have to acknowledge my limitations. These include mobility and finances.

I view preparing for a self defense scenario being much like completing my taxes, I have to have all of the elements together before I can successfully file my taxes.

I do realize that the need to employ lethal force will come when I least expect it, and how it surfaces will probably be in a manner that I have never thought of. Therefore, the universal constant will hover upon my ability to apply the fundamentals of shooting.

Where I live, concealed carry is not afforded the average citizen, only the right politically connected are granted that luxury. As a result of progressive states that not only trust their residents, but also law abiding citizens of other states, have I garnered the ability to protect myself when traveling out of state. PPC and IDPA style matches don't exist in my state, but I can travel 3 hours to my home club to participate in IDPA matches. About 2 hours away, in Pennsylvania, there is a PPC club that welcomes (or at least had welcomed civilians in the past) to participate in PPC matches, which I think may be one of the most practical training regimes available for CCW.

Being a single parent, it is hard to pick up and travel for formal training. I focus on traditional one handed bullseye to build my confidence in the ability to hit the target. I go to the pistol pits after rifle matches to practice drawing and speed shooting on paper pie plates at 3-5 yards to practice CQB. When I have the opportunity, I go to the not so local PPC club for a 3-25 yard 480 point match to put everything together. In this manner, I can practice: drawing, firing strong hand and weak hand, plus speed loading. How beneficial this will be in the long run, I don't know. But, I get to exercise the fundamentals.

When I was in the army, we trained bloodlessly on KD ranges to develop the fundamentals for combat. Realistically, not every training scenario will ever cover every possible defense scenario. We will not know when, or if, the attack we prepare for will ever come, but if we have mastered the fundamentals, we can try to adapt and survive our greatest fear.

I realize that I am probably coming across as an overly confident egotistical *** with this post, but I am not. I have to provide for the necessities of my children before I engage in formal training with a paid instructor. When I get to splurge on myself, it is usually a rifle match a month then a sweet tea for the ride home. Do I have an over inflated perception of my abilities? In my mind, I don't. I know that I can't run, I can only fight with one arm, but I can place my shots.
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Old 09-16-2016, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Isn't being able to use the gun more important than how cool it looks in a holster?
Not to many people, for various reasons.

As an IDPA match director, I see a lot of shooters trying to buy or modify their way to a match win and are offended at a suggestion to take a class. I have had some success offering to let people shoot a free stage after range cleanup detail, with a little instruction slipped in.

Some people on the forum place great store in military or LEO training, but my military training was far less than what I initially got through the NRA, and we helped local police set up "IDPA like" scenarios to provide some simulated stress shooting practice.

Then there are always some that don't want to train or compete and as one top instructor in OK says, "carry a handgun as a magic talisman to keep danger away." As another competitor says, 'they are a legend in their own mind."
It's a free country, and if that is their choice, so be it.

I just wish the drugstore (internet) cowboys would stop spewing the nonsense against the benefits of training and practice. We have people show up with a perfectly good stock M&P 9, shoot IDPA/SSP, get thoroughly outscored by most everyone there, and then they KNOW that the SECRET PARTS in the other guns are the reason they lost, not that the other people TRAIN and PRACTICE.
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Old 09-16-2016, 08:45 PM
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In my opinion, most all of it is hobby-overthink including chasing highly developed shooting skills for average Joe carry.
I will agree, Chat, that there are lots of instructors pushing absolutely absurd skills for the average defensive shooter. Many come from an IDPA/IPSC background, and essentially teach the techniques of that discipline as defensive skills.

(Although before the Competitive Covering Fire () crowd jumps on me, there are many that do not! And of course, those disciplines are helpful for learning smooth reloads, shooting from weak hand, and shooting from cover.)

But I would suggest that most people with a CCW are unprepared. We're not talking about high-falootin' trick reloads or shooting while moving, just basics like drawing and manipulating the handgun. They might have the marksmanship skills, but have never attempted anything else. For instance, I once saw a gentleman, who was a very good shot, adamantly refuse to attempt a qualification exercise. The test was to fire five rounds, reload, and fire five more, in 20 seconds, which the gentleman insisted could not be done with a revolver, even with speed loaders.

Other people have told me that double-action trigger pulls were too inaccurate to hit a threat at more than 7 yards.

Still others haven't even considered all the non-gun aspects of self-defense. Awareness, positioning, street smarts, and the like. I once read a gun'riter describe how two ne'er-do-wells approached him at an ATM at 4AM, but turned tail when he reached for his snubbie. More or less competent guy, but--was it really necessary to be at such an obvious trouble zone at such an hour?

There's way more to it than just hitting a target.
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Old 09-16-2016, 09:34 PM
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"Sometimes it isn't being fast that counts, or even accurate; but willing. Most men will draw a breath or blink an eye before they shoot. I won't." John Bernard Books.

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Old 09-16-2016, 09:47 PM
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I'm a drummer. Been playing for 16 years.
In the drum forums it's the same. Endless and heated discussions on drumheads, sticks, brands, sizes, you name it...

The "lessons and technique" subforum barely gets noticed.
This leads me to an interesting parallel. Ask any drummer, and most musicians, to list their top ten drummers and there's one name I guarantee will be in every list; Neil Peart.

So why mention him? I bring this up because a few years back, Neil actually took an entire year off just to get training. If the best in the world recognizes that he needs more instruction, why don't we?


Training comes in many forms and doesn't need to be expensive. While I agree with ICS Yoda that hands on instruction is a necessary component, that doesn't mean it's the only component. There is a lot you can learn here and from books. Just talking about training can be very helpful.

This whole thread is not an attempt to push people toward seeking training. What it is is a desire to see guys talk more about shooting. There is so much to learn from what others have learned.
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Old 09-16-2016, 09:52 PM
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But I would suggest that most people with a CCW are unprepared. We're not talking about high-falootin' trick reloads or shooting while moving, just basics like drawing and manipulating the handgun. They might have the marksmanship skills, but have never attempted anything else. For instance, I once saw a gentleman, who was a very good shot, adamantly refuse to attempt a qualification exercise. The test was to fire five rounds, reload, and fire five more, in 20 seconds, which the gentleman insisted could not be done with a revolver, even with speed loaders.

There's way more to it than just hitting a target.
Sounds like a man who knows his limitations. Maybe doesn't carry a speed strip or loader anyway...

Yes, there's a ton more to it than just hitting a stationary piece of paper. It was mentioned earlier that a lot of cops get little practice shooting. I'm sure that's true. But what they typically have is a lot of experience dealing with people in real world high stress situations. That's something average Joe can't practice, only pretend. Being the betting man that I am, in a real world self defense situation my money is on the experienced cop with limited shooting skills compared to average Joe with more trigger time.

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Old 09-16-2016, 10:02 PM
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Sounds like a man who knows his limitations. Maybe doesn't carry a speed strip or loader anyway...

Yes, there's a ton more to it that just hitting a stationary piece of paper. It was mentioned earlier that a lot of cops get little practice shooting. I'm sure that's true. But what they typically have is a lot of experience dealing with people in real world high stress situations. That's something average Joe can't practice/experience, only pretend. Being the betting man that I am, in a real world self defense situation my money is on the experienced cop with limited shooting skills compared to average Joe with more trigger time.
In life, nothing beats experience.
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Old 09-16-2016, 10:05 PM
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For example, here is a anecdote from a class I've been to...

At one school they have a student vs student competition on the last day of training. The course of fire is done with three steel targets at varying distances. Two students stand next to each other. On command they each have to hit three targets in order. The first target is a hostage taker target. This target is a silhouette with a small white plate next to the head area. You have to hit the white plate without hitting the silhouette (shoot the bad guy without hitting the hostage). Then you have to hit a red silhouette and then a blue one, in order. Get the order wrong and you're out. Shoot the hostage and you're out. Shoot perfectly, but slower than the other guy, and you're out. It's a single elimination contest until only one student is left.

Now, I mention this because it brings to light a specific thing; the winner is rarely the fastest shot in the class. The fast guys are usually so busy being fast, they forget to be accurate. So, they invariably miss the hostage taker and shoot the hostage.

This competition is super fun and highlights what's important in self-defense; a slow hit is always better than a fast miss. But if you're too slow, you get beat by the other guy. So, some speed is necessary.
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Old 09-16-2016, 10:06 PM
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In life, nothing beats experience.
Fortune favors the prepared.
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Old 09-16-2016, 10:48 PM
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i may be wrong, but to me it looks like people here don't shoot very much.
i guess instructors are important if you guys say so, but i suspect firing your guns lots is more important.
no one ever mentions shooting til the gun feels like part of your arm, but i believe that is essential.
i don't really worry about gunmen attacking me, but i need to get the gun out fast n fire an accurate shot often.
i don't improve with less than 1,000 rounds/month n i doubt others can either.
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Old 09-16-2016, 11:04 PM
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Susieqz,

You present a very valid point, you need to shoot as much as you can to become proficient. For me, it is honing the basics and fundamentals, so that they become second nature. When I practice, it is in pursuit of the most important prize, survival.
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Old 09-16-2016, 11:23 PM
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Fortune favors the prepared.
Same difference.
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Old 09-16-2016, 11:51 PM
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Nice discussion, with some good experiences, observations and opinions being expressed.

Yes, fortune favors the prepared, but not everyone will ever agree on what sort of preparation may be useful, nor the extent of it that may be needed.

Knowledge is good, and so is experiential knowledge (if it's applicable to the envisioned task at hand, of course).

Let's not forget the fickleness of luck, either.

Sometimes you can do everything right, and still come out with the short straw.

Then, there's the sometimes difficult-to-define essence of "timing" to be taken into consideration.

For another arts reference ...

Some people think they've become "experts" when they achieve their first "black belt" rank (shodan in some ranked arts). Others who achieve their first degree black belt suddenly realize it really only means that they've finally achieved the status of "intermediate beginner" ... and sometimes being on the wrong end of a sloppily throw hay-maker renders all your hard-earned training & practice moot.
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Old 09-17-2016, 12:05 AM
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Rastoff,


I belong to a large club, where an un supervised pistol range is available to any member as well as a plinking range, rifle ranges, trap, archery, etc. The pistol range is the most heavily used - and abused. It is eye opening to see the people that come in with big dollar equipment, burning box after box of ammo, and hit the target stands or the ground more often that the target. There seems to be a phenomenon that exists where some people think they are born with the innate ability to shoot. They will tell you they are there to exercise their "right" and have no more than the basic minimum training course required to obtain their basic (restricted) pistol license. Most can't clear a jam, don't understand the manual of arms for their particular firearm,and in many cases haven't even looked at the manual that comes with their pistol.

Mr. Rastoff's question -"Let me ask a very unpopular question; if they can't use their gun effectively, is it a bad thing they don't carry it?" unfortunately, I have to say, from my direct observations the answer is, no, it is not a bad thing.

Scarier yet, as Mr. Wise A says above, are some of those who show up for our county's advanced course for CCW (required before you can apply to have your license restrictions lifted) they are so bad, if they can pass the law test, they need to demonstrate the most basic safe handling skills, and some can't get ten rounds on the paper at 10 yards.These are people paying $200.00 for this course/test, burning 100-150 rounds of ammo, mostly in rather expensive auto pistols (less than 5% revolvers).

I never used to recommend specific training courses, but now I am thinking that the NRA Personal Defense Outside the Home and courses of that level and content are needed by many of these people. I have nothing against the schools throughout the country that teach higher level, LE and military style technique, but realistically, how many people need that?
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Old 09-17-2016, 12:21 AM
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I wouldn't trust training advice from randoms online that I don't know. For proper training if you're not LE or MIL you have to research the good schools and courses.
I don't 'trust' anything online at face value, but if I think and analyze what I read here it would be a waste to toss it just because I read it on the net. There are experience people here a lot higher up the ladder of training and know how than I am. I don't just take reloading advice verbatim, I check it out myself and that's the same way I approach SD shooting or anything. It's a great SUPPLEMENT to what I need to learn on my own.
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Old 09-17-2016, 01:04 AM
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i don't improve with less than 1,000 rounds/month n i doubt others can either.
I don't agree with this. Just standing there hammering away without purpose, other than to hear the bang, won't make anyone a better shooter.

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In life, nothing beats experience.
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Fortune favors the prepared.
Same difference.
I don't think it's the same at all. You can stand at the range and shoot thousands of rounds. That gives you a lot of experience, it doesn't make you a good shooter. A person can spend time in dry practice working on trigger control and sight picture and will see a dramatic improvement even if they only fire 25 rounds a week.
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Old 09-17-2016, 02:51 AM
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Some time spent with a good coach is invaluable. What is needed is, first, to learn how to do the act properly and second, to then practice the properly performed action to ingrain the correct manner and techniques needed to do it correctly. It doesn't serve you well to put in a lot of time and ammunition practicing something performed improperly, that just ingrains the faulty technique being used.

This applies to anything you want to do well, from playing golf to fly casting to shooting a handgun to save your life.
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Old 09-17-2016, 04:35 AM
Wise_A Wise_A is offline
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Originally Posted by susieqz View Post
i may be wrong, but to me it looks like people here don't shoot very much.
i guess instructors are important if you guys say so, but i suspect firing your guns lots is more important.
no one ever mentions shooting til the gun feels like part of your arm, but i believe that is essential.
i don't really worry about gunmen attacking me, but i need to get the gun out fast n fire an accurate shot often.
i don't improve with less than 1,000 rounds/month n i doubt others can either.
Well, it depends on your discipline, your skill level, and how you spend those rounds. Discipline is obvious--a BE shooter going through 1000 rounds a month will need to shoot a full 900 (a 90-shot course of fire) every three days. An IPSC/IDPA guy could easily burn through that much in 2-3 practices.

As for skill level, when you've mastered the fundamentals of your pursuit, it requires exponentially more time and effort to progress. Once you correct the most egregious errors and eliminate the worst mistakes, the more subtle ones are much more difficult to identify and correct.

The other thing is what you do when you practice. You get a lot more if you spend some time analyzing your performance, and you retain more if you keep a journal.
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Old 09-17-2016, 11:01 AM
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rast,
i won't tell you what i can do after all those 1,000 round months because it would seem like bragging.
i don't use a stance. i practice weight on right leg, weight on left, balanced, unbalanced, kneeling, squatting, bent over, walking, moving to either side.
i shoot from any possition i could possibly be in.
i practice at ranges from 1 yard to 50 yards.
this works great but takes lots of ammo.
i'm working at point shooting fast draw.
when i checked group size at 7 yards, i got a 6 shot group of 4 1/4''.
it took me more than 4,000 practice rounds to do that. maybe you can do that faster, but that's what it took me.
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Last edited by susieqz; 09-17-2016 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 09-17-2016, 11:53 AM
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JJEH JJEH is offline
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I rarely see threads on how to shoot better or what's the best training.

Why is that?
Because the training that you praise might not work for another one.

My opinion is to take as much training as possible, you'll always learn something. Even if it's just that it doesn't work. Take training and pick the things that work best for you. There are many ways to do things, not just a way.
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Old 09-17-2016, 04:22 PM
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Rastoff Rastoff is offline
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There are many ways to do things, not just a way.
I completely agree. There is no one perfect way that works for all. There are beginning places, but each person must learn what works for them. This is why I don't "praise" any one school or style. I'm just for continuous learning.

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Originally Posted by susieqz View Post
when i checked group size at 7 yards, i got a 6 shot group of 4 1/4''.
it took me more than 4,000 practice rounds to do that. maybe you can do that faster, but that's what it took me.
I guarantee I could get a shooter to the point where they can shoot a 4" group at 7 yards, even with time pressure and from a holster, in less than 4,000 rounds. It will take practice to maintain it, but with the proper help it doesn't take that much.

Now, if you're on your own, have no instruction and lots of ammo, yeah, I can see that it would easily take that much. You'd have to figure it out through trial and error. It just doesn't have to. With someone to help, even on a forum like this, the corrections can be more deliberate and focused.
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