Suppose you live in Texas with the following rules (which I do):

You cannot carry your concealed or open carry handgun in a host of places, specifically for this discussion stadiums. Theaters are not included in this prohibition.

You cannot carry your gun in any bar that has a 51% sign, which signifies that it makes at least 51% of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages.

You cannot carry your gun into places with what are known as 30-06 and 30-07 signs prominently posted banning your weapons inside.

Suppose you go to a "music venue" - for want of a definition, a large, theater-type of place, almost an indoor stadium, that holds several thousand people. It has a stage, and various mezzanine levels above the main floor (dancing).

There are bars all over this place (let's assume you will not violate the rule that says you cannot carry your weapon while intoxicated and "intoxicated" is undefined so no drinking is the best policy - but let's not include drinking in this discussion - assume you do not drink).

There is a big sign at the door: Amazingly, it is a 30-07 sign banning open carry of handguns. There is no 30-06 sign. There is no 51% sign. As to the latter, presumably the place makes more money from the sale of tickets for concerts than from its bars - there is no food sold therein. That seems to me to be the only way they get around that particular rule.

SO - IS IT A BAR WHERE HANDGUNS ARE PROHIBITED?

Think that through carefully - the only answer I can come up with is that it can't be such a bar or they'd simply have to post a 51% sign. Therefore, you can carry concealed therein.

See if you agree.

Nope. No 51% sign ,not a bar.

ETA - You can go to the TABC website and look up a business and see what their license actually says - The record shows 'Gun Sign-' and it will either indicate RED (no guns) or BLUE (guns ok without 30.06/07 signs).

Hope that helps....

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On the Oak Savannah

That is an EXCELLENT piece of information SAFireman.

So, if there is no 51% sign, none that I saw, anyway, and a posted Section 30.07 sign, how come the TABC lists this place as "RED"?

If I go there again I will look for a 51% sign but, meantime, assuming there was none, how can anyone be sure? There is an obvious assumption for any ordinary person to make that a posted 30.07 sign only implies that there is no ban on concealed carry.

I would presume that a 51% business doesn't need a Section 30.06 or 30.07 sign, anyway.

Does anyone else enjoy the irony of the numbers they picked for "no carry?" 30.06???

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Because of the metric system?

I was amused by it back in the late 90s when they first passed it. I actually thought they did it on purpose - the Texas legislators ain't gun dummies. But I never verified it.

It wouldn't be the first time that a Texas business has posted the wrong sign. I know of one place in town that has a red 51% sign when TABC says it should be blue. Not exactly the say, but still...

The way I read it, No sign = not a bar. Carry on!

In all seriousness, would it make sense to give the establishment a call and find out where they stand? Is there any government website that has this type of information available for public record?

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John 14:6, Luke 21:11

If TABC says the establishment derives 51% or more of its income from sales of alcohol for on premises consumption then it is REQUIRED to post a 51% sign. Failure to do so is punishable by fine and/or loss of alcohol license.

However . . . if there is no sign you are free to carry there until such time as they post the required sign.

Yes, that's how I understand the rules, too.

If I ever go back there that's my plan.

In Texas it's the TABC. Florida has different rules I'll wager.

It is rare for a government website to give legal advice. They'll state their rules, and as TABC does, which is nice, they have a section for their licensees that says "GUNS" followed by either "RED" or "BLUE". That's as close to legal advice as I've ever seen on a government
website.
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I feel your pain.

Wyoming's statute says, [concealed firearm permit] "Permitees are prohibited from carrying a concealed firearm into any: ... 7 - portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic liquor and malt beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to that purpose."

We have no 30.06 / 30.07 or red / blue rules or requirements for establishment owners to post a sign. So... I go into the "establishment" and sit at the bar to have breakfast, which is what everyone else there is doing, too. We're eating; we're not drinking alcoholic beverages so "... that portion of the establishment isn't primarily devoted to that purpose [at that time]."

The folks who write these laws are trying their best to be clear, but I think it's terribly hard to write clear and concise guidelines that work in every situation.

I've asked the "establishment" owners for their interpretation. They point to one of those Holywood signs that says, "Cowboys, hand your six-guns over to the bartender." I'm not a cowboy; and mine's a five-gun so their sign doesn't apply to me! They're ok with that. Fair enough.

We never see the Sheriff or any of his deputies so it's really not an issue in a town of 30-odd souls, most of whom are packin'.

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Wrangler of stray Chiefs
Bob

It is NOT irony at all.. It is well calculated in your face leftest politics.. Remember the guy that shot up the gay bar in Fla ?? His father was seated behind HRC herself at a speech.. Think about that.. You all remember Rosa Parks?? That was suppose to be a pregnant 16 year old, no joking.. They changed to Rosa Parks at the last minute.. So this in your face is old hat.. Sad thing is it works and something like 8 out of 11 people don't vote..

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Vote!
IamOneGunAwayFromHappy

Like most people on this forum, I am not a resident of Texas.
Like most residents of Texas who are members of this forum I am not an attorney.
Like most members of this forum who are residents of Texas and who are attorneys, the concealed handgun law is not a part of my regular practice and, therefore, one with which I am not very familiar.
Nothing wrong with asking your question here, but if you really want a definitive answer the Texas Attorney General's office will be glad to give you one.

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Pisgah

With regards to the sign - If you SEE a 51% sign and you carry anyway, it is a felony - If there is no sign, and they are required to post a sign, you might get off, but don't bet on it.

The TABC has penalties for failing to post a sign, and for posting an incorrect sign.

Use your best judgement, and seek the advice of a competent licensed individual in YOUR jurisdiction.

Carry On!.....or not....

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On the Oak Savannah

Pisgah, one doesn't ask the Texas Attorney General for this type of assistance. There are far more important issues the AG's office has to address.

The law is clear in re 51% bars, 30.06 signs, 30.07 signs, etc. The lack of clarity only appears when a place that ought to have a 51% sign doesn't and has a 30.07 sign instead. The existence of the sign implies the lack of a need for the other. Thus this question here for discussion.

I don't know about Rosa Parks, Cigar, but I'm far more likely to believe the use of Section 30.06 was a clever pun from the Texas legislators, not some leftist slap at gun owners.

it's all in here:
http://dps.texas.gov/InternetForms/Forms/CHL-16.pdf

Edit: I find nothing regarding colors other than "contrasting". I assume that is due to colorblindness not being a disqualification to handgun carry.

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Halfway and one more step

Here's what you left out of the equation: are you licensed to carry concealed?

I assume you are. So the TABC signs are about unlicensed carry OR 51%notification. If you are not notified of 51%, you're not notified, period. If the displays a 30.07 notice, you cannot carry open.
If you're licensed to carry concealed, you can carry concealed. ( in this scenario)

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Halfway and one more step

Instead of contacting the Texas AG, I'd suggest writing your representatives and explain that all those guns and bars law restrictions are useless.

Tennessee had similar laws until about six years ago when Guns and Bars was passed. At the time a lot of folks freaked out. I was particularly disappointed in many gun owners at our gun club crying like Bloomberg and his gaggle of nags. Shaking their heads in disbelief, predicting drunken brawl shootouts and all the rest... on and on... I could not believe how otherwise seemingly intelligent people suffered such deep phobias over the notion of freedom. Naturally, all the predictions of doom proved false. It's been six years.... yawn.

51% acchlol meaning what? Thats a bunch.

texas3006.com is a TX forum that 'specializes' in this type of information. You could probably get some more clarification there.

Establishments that fly the 51% sign are Supposed to display it within easy sight of the entrances. The 3006 forum has a list of most (if not all) establishments that have 30.06, 30.07 and 51% signage (and where the signs are hung).

As ISCS Yoda has mentioned, the 30.06 rule was created by the Texas legislature in the 1990s. There hasn't been a leftist legislature in Texas since the Johnson administration. The Andrew Johnson administration.

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What, me worry?

I believe it means the business derives more than half it's income form the sale of alcohol by the drink. This is considered a "bar."

Since I'm not a legal scholar, and many of these laws are changed regularly, I find the one constant that serves me well is CONCEALED.

Instead of calling the AG, writing to your congressmen or complaining to the newspaper, why not just refuse to do business in an establishment where the rules are not clear. Then, write them a letter telling them why you won't do business there. No sense in taking a chance.

You know, if a law needs to be debated to figure out what it means, its a bad law.
What in the world has happened to common sense?

You can carry a gun wherever you want. The only thing that varies is the consequences for getting caught.

Back at post #12 , item 3 .
If a Texas based attorney is enough of a gun person to frequent a specialized handgun collector's forum such as this fine site, I'd say the odds are good they looked into the laws and regulations under discussion here.

How ever they probably are also cautious about seeming to give legal advice over the internet.

I think our law here in Idaho is quite sensible. It is illegal to be carrying
a firearm if you are intoxicated. 18-3302B Idaho Code. Doesn't matter
if your in a bar, restaurant, church, etc. What is intoxicated? .08 or more
alcohol concentration. Or other substances that make one high.

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In Omnia Paratus

What if???

Why push it?

You get caught, you might lose the right to carry open or concealed forever==is it worth it to prove a point?

That definition is the legal definition for driving while intoxicated, same as in Texas. Carrying a handgun while intoxicated does NOT, repeat, DOES NOT fall under the same definition. .01% would be sufficient if an LEO feels like he wants to say you're intoxicated.

I would be shocked if the Texas AG could answer your question..face to face..spur of the moment. Our AG Wilson is a good man as is his father Congressman Joe Wilson {shouted out LIAR to O'Bama}. I would bet supper that IF you could walk up to him and ask him, he wouldn't know either. That's a STAFF question.

An aside; As a young Nevadan, I bought a one year old 1956 Ford F-100 pickup truck. I was issued the license plate "30 06". I was thrilled. I put a little black dash between the 30 and the 06. Nevada just started issuing plates that stayed 'yours' forever..........Except a few years later the Counties demanded a change in license plates giving County identification. I lost my 30-06 plate and was bummed out for some time. ..........

I have a personal rule: Don't drink alcoholic beverages while carrying. At an establishment in Texas with a 30.07 sign and no visible 51% sign and bars within that serve alcoholic beverages, I carry concealed (Oklahoma handgun license), don't drink, and don't sit at the bar.

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CPT, Armor (Ret)
Luke 22:36

Another change in the law is violation of a 30.06 sign is now a
misdemeanor with up to a $500 fine only.

The only "bars" I frequent are the club rooms at the VFW and American Legion posts I belong to. Drop in for a burger and Coke occasionally. I have a lock box in my truck. I secure my unloaded piece in it, no worries about what percentage of food to adult beverages they sell. Should a fire fight erupt between the old farts in there, guess it sux to be me.

No sign declaring the place as a bar; no sign prohibiting CCW. Go ahead and CCW. It's legal.

I live in a dry county, so that's one less complication in my life that I have to worry about.

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- Change it back -

This is an example where public opinion is different from reality. In CA there is no mention of alcohol in the law when it comes to firearms. Legally, I can carry my concealed firearm (assuming I have a valid license and no specific prohibition placed on it from the issuing authority which I've never seen) into a bar and even drink. Also, "no guns" signs do not carry the weight of law here. In my county, we do sign an agreement that we will not carry in such places though.

Now, I quit drinking in 1988. So, this is not an issue for me as I wouldn't go into a bar under any circumstances. However, the question does come up from time to time when it comes to places like the Olive Garden and other restaurants that have a bar included. The current interpretation by our sheriff is, as long as you're not sitting at the actual bar, you're good. I suspect the same would be true in the situation the OP mentioned.

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Freedom isn't free.

I have an occasional beer, only one. I don't drink and drive.