Many people advise using FMJ ammo for self-defense purposes when carrying a .380ACP pistol because it penetrates. Their logic is that the .380ACP doesn't offer enough power to adequately penetrate and expand. I've seen the gel tests, and this seems to make sense.

Seems like the same thing applies to snub nosed (.38 special) revolvers. I've seen maybe two or three JHP rounds that seem to expand and penetrate to the desired levels, with the king of all loads being the old FBI load.

If one was unable to find any of the loads that penetrated and expanded, do you think that a basic FMJ or SJHP load would deliver enough juice to effectively end a threat? I was looking at the numbers on Monarch 158gr SJHP, as well as the relatively flat shape of the projectile, and it seems like this round would make for a fairly decent self-defense load when used in a snubbie.

I'm thinking that the expansion wouldn't be great, but it would really penetrate. It's rated for about 900 FPS, and I'm gonna guess that is out of a 4" barrel. So, I'm speculating, we're talking about 700 - 800 FPS out of a 2" barrel and a 158grain slug that is nearly flat so it should create a pretty nasty wound channel - not huge, but nasty... maybe even coming close to .45ACP FMJ type stopping power (roughly 750 FPS, and a 230 grain ball).

Many, many folks (in my best Trump voice) prefer a 148 gr full wadcutter in snubs, for the reasons you've given.

Me personally, I would used any hollowpoint before a FMJ in .38.

__________________
Because of the metric system?

I drove myself nuts trying to figure out what 38+P round to carry. Finally I read how Speer developed a 135gr. 38+P load to replace the sucessfull 158gr. LHP. After reports of it working well on the street, I went with it. I enjoy in watching Jello Tests on YouTube but, Street Results are what counts in my book. NYPD had good results in 2" and 4" back up and off duty guns. They were so pleased that other Police Departments authorized its use. I believe the article was written by Masad Ayoob. Good enough for me.

__________________
Two Handguns every day

Any bullet designed to expand at .38 Special velocities would be preferable to one that does not. Experience and data eventually led the NYPD to the Speer Gold Dot, so if you have the choice that would be one of many good ones to carry (but hopefully not have to use).

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Sometimes people do things without understanding why.

FMJs makes sense in self defense firearms when:

1) The cartridge and firearm combination lacks the velocity to achieve at least 12" of penetration with a hollow point.

For example, in a short barrel .380 ACP or a short barrel .32 ACP most hollow points will only penetrate 8-10 inches, and that might not be enough in some circumstances. In this case, an FMJ makes sense to ensure that the bullet can reach the vital organs.

2) When the firearm will not reliably feed a hollow point. This is often the case with some older, or lower quality .380 ACP and .32 ACP semi-auto pistols

----

A snub nose .38 loses significant velocity compared to a 4" service revolver. For example, I'll lose around 80 fps in a 1 7/8" Model 36 with a light target load compared to what I'll get in a 4" Model 10. However that difference increases to around 125 fps to 150 fps with a standard pressure or +P pressure self defense load.

That 150 fps velocity loss can have negative effects on expansion or it can reduce penetration below an acceptable minimum if a hollow point does expand.

My preference is to use a +P load in a short barrel revolver to gain back the lost velocity and give terminal performance on par with a service revolver shooting a standard pressure .38 self defense load.

Even then, I'm very careful about hollow point selection. Hollow points operate efficiently over a fairly narrow velocity range. Shoot them too fast and they may over expand or prematurely expand - and then under penetrate. Shoot them too slow and they may not expand reliably.

I that regard, I use a 125 gr Hornady XTP for my short barrel .38 self defense loads. The XTP bullets are designed to expand a little slower and in a more moderate fashion than many other modern hollow points. They form more of a traditional mushroom to about 1.5x their original diameter, rather than creating that cute spider legged kind of mushroom you see in all those cool picture that show a bullet expanded to 1.6 or 1.65x its original diameter.

This makes the XTP a good choice for marginal calibers like the .380 ACP and the snub nose .38 Special as it'll expand reliably and meet the 12" minimum penetration standard when launched at sufficient velocity.

For the .357 125 gr HP XTP, the effective velocity range is 850-1600 fps. (Don't confuse that with the .357 125 gr FP XTP bullet designed for velocities of 1200-1700 fps.)

My preferred +P load using a 125 gr XTP HP delivers 930 to 950 fps in my various 1 7/8" and 2 1/8" barrels and delivers 1030 fps in my 3" barrels, compared to 1,100 fps in a 4" barrel.

----

Over expansion and under penetration is really the concern that might argue for an FMJ, while under expansion isn't an issue that would push you toward an FMJ. If a hollow point does not expand, it will act just like an FMJ of a similar shape. Consequently, if over expansion is not a concern, you've really got nothing to lose by using a well chosen hollow point load rather than an FMJ.

---

As noted above, the 135 gr Gold Dot also has a good track record in the short barrel .38

What ever you choose, in handguns, for self defense, the deciding factor should always be,,,penetration and placement. If you don't get in far enough to get to electrics or hydraulics, your results may not be helpful. As for over penetration, the last Justice Department figures I saw were from 2014, and over 70% of all rounds fired be LE were Air Balls. Choose your ammo well, please consider always...Penetration and Placement. Handguns are pitiful for defense put they are very PORTABLE.

I found recently that Speer has a 125 gr gold dot in 38 special standard pressure. I've started to look at that and ordered a couple boxes.

Haven't seen a gel test yet for it.

My thinking is that you might as well use a hollow point.

It might expand and that's good, if not then it's no worse that a SWC.

This reviewer did an extensive set of tests on .380 and 9mm, and found a small set of .380 hollow points that does the job nicely.

This is a summary but if you look through his vid's you will see the gel tests.

135 SB Gold Dot

__________________
K & N S&W revolvers

Take a look here and read the specs on this ammo: Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Hvy .38 Spl (Non + P) Pistol & Handgun Ammunition . Number one and number two are of particular interest to me. Both would be good personal protection loads for short barreled snubs, especially the J FRame variety.

If you wish to use a +P load, look here: Heavy 38 Special + P Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

I am particularly fond of the #2 choice listed under the first link. A hard cast 150 grain full wadcutter at the velocities mentioned would be very hard to beat for personal protection. Scroll down and you can read the velocities the company has taken using regular firearms in various barrel lengths, and below that, there will be a chart showing velocity and energy and other pertinent information for several different velocities.

I like any of the so called FBI loads (158 grain SWCHP bullets) made by a few brands. They have a proven track record for many years. One point about using the full wadcutter loads mentioned above ... these rounds are a bit more difficult to reload without fumbling as compared to the longer and more "pointy" SWC type loads. It is my practice to carry the full wads in the revolver and carry a spare reload of the SWC type of my choice since they are easier to reload perhaps a bit more quickly. I also like the Speer Gold Dot loaded for use in short barreled guns, but they are difficult to find. All of these loads will do the job nicely if the bullets land where they need to land for maximum effectiveness. This is my opinion and practice!

__________________
So long ... Ken

I am using number 1 at the link above, the 158 grain: Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

I use it in my old fragile Charter Arms that is not supposed to be used with +P.

Some simple water jug tests showed that it expanded nicely. I like the low flash aspect as well and have even loaded these in my 4" barrel S&W Model 10-8 house gun for that reason.

Here is some info from the link I posted:

Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special Ammo
158 gr. Soft Lead SWC-HC (850fps/M.E. 253 ft. lbs.)
20 Round Box

Due to customer demand, we've developed this defensive 38 SPL ammo. Our customers wanted some devastating 38 SPL loads that would fill the following criteria.

1. It won't hurt older/fragile/alloy revolvers. (Non +P)
2. Is effective as a "fight stopper" through the use of proper bullets.
3. Is more powerful than typical/standard, weak 38SPL ammo.
4. Generate much less recoil than our +P 38SPL ammo.
5. Is flash suppressed.

Buffalo Bore is introducing these three different heavy, yet standard pressure loadings for 38 SPL. These offerings are loaded at standard pressure, but they are much more powerful than normal 38SPL ammo. These loads will not harm older more fragile revolvers. So, these loads are safe for use in ANY 38 SPL revolver, provided it is in normal working condition. As stated above, the "POWER" level of these loads is really closer to a typical +P power level, but the pressure is standard. We are able to develop these powerful standard pressure loads with modern non-canister powders. Again, these loads recoil far less than our +P 38 SPL ammo.

All three of these loads are flash suppressed, so firing them in the dark wont blind you. We use flash suppressed powder in our defensive ammo, in the loadings we can, because over 90% of all civilian shootings in America, occur in low light, when the criminal element is at work. We don't want you blinded by your own gunfire after the first shot.

Item 20C utilizes the same 158gr. very soft lead cast, SWC-HC gas checked bullet, we load in our +P 38 SPL ammo. It is designed to expand and then penetrate quite deep. (Approx. 14 inches in human tissue) This bullet is gas checked and will NOT lead your barrel. Note the below velocities that I recorded out of my personal revolvers- NOT TEST BARRELS!

Quite a few practical and common handgun calibers, with suitable JHPs and approximately 4" or longer barrels, have more effective wounding than bullets fired from quite a few various caliber rifles, that just zip through without yaw and/or significant fragmentation. The latter, of course, penetrate quite well -- too well. However, I pity anyone shot with either.

I am only repeating these stats supplied by Clint Smith..80% of all people shot with a handgun, survive. 80% of all people shot with a rifle, die. Again, just repeating. I have not personally shot enough people to have a good data base.

I have seen "statistics" where .380 ACP has more one shot stops than a .44 magnum... In addition, rifle shots tend to be placed a bit better than handgun shots. My point, however, was about terminal ballistics, not statistics.

One of my carry guns is a 2" S&W Model 36. I load it with 158 JHP (non +P) ammo. I believe that if I sacrifice velocity by using a short barrel, then I want to make up for it with more mass. I don't think that the JHP will reliably expand at the low velocity, but I do get 28 grains more in bullet weight than the standard .38 FMJ. I've never understood the rationale behind using +P or .357 Magnum ammo in a short barrel. All you get is a ball of fire with no appreciable increase in real energy and a big decrease in controllability.

That's incorrect. What you get with some "modern" +P rounds is a relatively low-flash, suitably expanding JHP that penetrates at least 12", even with a clothing barrier -- without substantial increase in recoil. .357 Magnum round from a snub is another story.

I've been using Hornady Critical Duty or Critical Defense in my carry revolvers, .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum (loaded with .44 Special). It is also made for .38 Special. The gummy tip doesn't collect lint, and is supposed to penetrate fabrick without clogging and preventing expansion. The Duty style is heaver and slower, with a thicker jacket for penetration (e.g., winter carry).

For woodsy type SD, I carry handloads with hard-cast Keith style bullets, 158 grain for .357 Magnum or 240 grain for .44 Magnum.

Obviously, I'm not into J-frames.

My first choice will always be a good hollowpoint whenever possible, even in .380 (one might need to be a little more selective in the smaller calibers, though). The way I see it, even if a hollowpoint doesn't expand it'll still have more of a "cookie-cutter" effect than a solid round. I also believe that overpenetration is a real concern. Just ask the NYPD.

As a general rule, I prefer medium to heavy weight HP for self defense, which I would consider to be 125gr and up in .38 Special. They seem to get the best balance between expansion and penetration, at least in service calibers.

As far as .38 snub loads, my first choice is Speer's 135gr SB-GDHP +P. It's what I carry in my 642 and reloads. It has a very good track record. A very close second would be Buffalo Bore's 158gr LSWCHP standard pressure load.

If I had no choice but to use a solid bullet, I would likely use a 158gr LSWC. At the very least the flat meplat has more potential to damage tissue than a round profile, and the lead bullet has more potential to deform than FMJ (of course, this depends on how hard the lead is).

With all that being said, I also believe that being able to get good hits on target is more important than what bullets may or may not do.

...four layers of denim...19 inches penetration...expansion to 44 caliber (.429 actual diameter)... non +P ...

__________________
A Country Boy Can Survive

Show me those stats, and I'll show you a misunderstanding, outright mis use of statistics, or an example of statistical problems from small samples, limited population, high standard deviation, confounding variables, etc.

That video is a little misleading in terms of what it does not say.

1) 850 fps is a lot for a standard pressure load in a 2" revolver, so I want to see the actual pressure data before I'd call it a standard pressure load. I've never really trusted BB's pressure claims.

Still, if it's really a +P load, no biggie.

2) A 4 layer denim test is well known for causing hollow points to plug, which tends to reduce expansion and increase penetration compared to bare ballistic gel. You really need to see the bare gel results as well to verify that it will penetrate at least 12" if it fully expands.

3) In this case, the expansion was .431, which works out to only 1.2x the original diameter. That's not what the FBI or any one else calls adequate expansion.

4) In comparison, the same guy did a test with a Hornady 158 gr XTP, in non +P form, and it demonstrated 18" in a 4 layer denim test and delivered 1.5x expansion from a snub nose revolver.

You are obviously in agreement with my inference that such "statistics" based on ridiculous "findings" are meaningless for all the reasons you mentioned -- and more.

Indeed. Not only is a "magic powder" required to push a 158 grain LSWCHP to 850 fps from a 1 7/8" barrel while generating less than 17 kpsi MAP (to be "standard pressure"), expansion --even in sim-test -- is almost trivial. In tissue or ordnance gel this round, despite being made of dead-soft lead, would most likely not expand at all (perhaps only deform somewhat) when fired through 4 LD from a snub. So, in essence you get, terminally speaking, less than you would from a wadcutter with this round, but you sure pay more.

Man, this thread reminds me of how I over-thought the ammunition I was buying for my J's back in the 80's. I was always looking at FPS & ME calculations in those days, too. Back then pretty much most of what we had from which to choose was the stuff designed for use in 4-6" barreled revolvers. The early frangible stuff was expensive, and was known to be shallow in penetration. Some of the specialty stuff was hard to find, and relatively expensive, like the .38 Spl Scorpion Hydra-Shok.

Nowadays we have some more options in better designed JHP's from some major makers. The little snubs are once again enjoying a resurgence of interest by folks looking for easily carried CCW options, and it no doubt helps that the venerable .38 Spl snub's are once again enjoying attention by LE users as both secondary & off-duty weapons, too.

I've reviewed my fair share of factory gel testing and hosted gel test events, and have decided that my own needs for snub revolver loads can be met by more than a single major maker, and I don't particularly see the need to resort to a specialty small ammo maker. I dislike being too attached to any one particular load, as production and market availability issues can make finding a single load difficult, or expensive.

For my +P capable snubs, I usually try to keep some various loads on hand, including the Speer 135gr +P GDHP SB, Remington 125gr +P HPJ/BJHP (Golden Sabre), and Win 130gr +P RA38B (same thing as the PDX1 sold in 20-rd boxes). I also have some remaining Rem & Win 158gr +P LHP/LSWCHP, and even some of the Speer 125gr +P GDHP (which is mostly used for range ammo, if the 135gr GDHP is hard to find at any given time and I want to cut back on burning it up for the range).

For my 37-2DAO Airweight, in which I only use standard pressure loads, I try to keep an assortment of Win 110gr STHP (newer version), Federal 110gr Hydra-Shok, and recently I added some Hornady 125gr XTP (American Gunner).

I even have some older carry loads in my ammo supply, left over from some years ago. I think I have most of a box of Federal 158gr Nyclad LHP +P (back when I rather liked the 158gr LHP +P loads), and most of a couple boxes of some Win 147gr JHP +P I was trying for a while (I vaguely remember reading about some early gel testing and deciding to pick up some boxes).

The little snub .38's are pretty much a study in compromise, though, as most people find them harder to shoot than larger revolvers. The very attributes that make them so handy for lawful concealed carry also tend to make them harder to shoot well, especially under duress and at speed.

Some folks still seem to find the 148gr HB wadcutter to be an appealing choice for them, even though it's a pretty low velocity load, and usually made with a very soft lead bullet.

Others don't seem to mind if "limited" to using plain standard pressure 158gr LSWC loads. (Those would be my last choice, along with the 130gr ball loads, but they're low recoiling & accurate enough, in the hands of folks sensitive to recoil, and at least offer heavier bullet weights than .380 ACP loads.)

I don't try to make my 5-shot .38's into something they aren't, meaning I don't try to "Magnumize" them. I can use .357 Magnum in 3 of my 5-shot snubs, if I really feel the need for that, but the only one that consistently sees Magnum loads is my Ruger SP101DAO 2.25". My pair of M&P 340's usually see one or another +P load, because of the better controllability and speed at which I can shoot them using +P vs. Magnum.

It's all a balanced compromise, especially with the little 5-shot snubs. Getting solid hits in vital anatomical spots is pretty important, regardless of the ammo choice, and misses not only fail to be hits on the intended threat target, but present real danger "down-range" to any unintended targets.

__________________
Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Those that deem decent 9mm 124 gr., or lighter, JHPs fired from a 3" pistol terminally adequate for self-defense (seems like almost everyone and his sister nowadays does) should feel just as terminally comfortable with the .38 snub (that uses a few decent +P JHPs). However, there certainly are .38 special rounds that when fired out of a snub will result in .380 ACP pocket pistol type terminal performance. Some evidently still long for '80s 125 grain Nyclad LHPs, standard pressure, for use in their snubs;however, there are some significantly more effective rounds available for a snub these days. Whether you shoot quite well or not, the decision whether terminal performance matters or not is yours. It won't matter until it matters and then it will matter a lot.

FWIW, as much as I like BB's "standard pressure" LSWCHP load, I treat it as +P.

I no longer carry a revolver due to the significant changes in the threat environment, but when I did, I carried the Federal version of this load.

I would NEVER carry FMJs in ANY self-defense handgun unless FORCED to by the Hague Conventions.

Undoubtedly, so does your revolver!

I made the same choice for my j frames. I always use those gold dots in my S&W 340 (no lock, and I added the S&W Crimson Trace Grips so it appears to be an 340CT without the lock).

I don't think 357 magnum is practical in a light weight j frame. 38 special + P is perfect.

I standardized on the 125 gr XTP in a +P hand load, mostly because it is almost always available and I can afford to shoot about 3 times more of them than I could anything else.

I agree with you that the J frame sized revolvers (I include the SP 101 here even though it's about 5 oz heavier than a Model 60 with the same length barrel) are basically expert's guns and I suspect most people who carry them don't shoot them very often or very well even under ideal range conditions.

I shoot a lot and I'm well above average as a hand gun shot, including the J-frame, but I still don't carry a full power .357 Magnum load in a Model 60 for four reasons:

a) it's painful to shoot and thus not something I'd practice with nearly enough, and light target loads just are not the same from a training perspective;

b) a steady diet of .357 Magnum is hard on a J-frame and while the slightly heavier Ruger SP101 will tolerate it better, it still isn't something I want to shoot a couple hundred times in a range session (see reason "a" above);

c) the .357 Magnum isn't very efficient in a 2" barrel, and doesn't offer much more than a .good 38 +P load anyway. In a 3" barrel it's better, but you still need a load optimized for a short barrel; and

d) and even though I am a very good shot by most J-frame standards, I still shoot my 2.5" Model 66, my 3" Model 13 and my 2 3/4" Speed Six a lot better with either +P loads or .357 Magnum - and those handguns are not much less comfortable or concealable in a good IWB holster with a good belt.

I have been shooting my 396with 200 gr jacket HP at 800fps. I see some loads with higher velocities, but, its a light gun and I don't want no more recoil.

I'm down to 12 nyclads

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

Great input. Thanks. I rarely carry my beloved snubbie any more because my eyesight isn't what it was 20 years ago, and I shoot better with my Shield 9MM. I figure the 124grain Federal HST is a pretty good load, but I've been toying around with moving up to the 147 grain version. However, when I do carry the snubbie I've got it loaded with Remington's +p 158gr LSWCHP.

I was just at the local Academy the other day buying range ammo for it, and got to wondering how a FMJ would work as a self defense load considering that many people recommend FMJ for .380 pistols. I like the Remington FBI load a whole lot, and don't see any reason to go down to FMJ for my self defense needs.

Stick with the Remington 158 gr. +P LSWCHP; no contest.

Go to Buffalo Bore's site.
Check his 38 special hard cast wad cutter self defense ammo.
Read his description.
While there read the story by the Alaska guide who used a 9mm
semi to stop a grizzly whith BB's Outdoorsman ammo.
PoliViejo

I use 135+P GDHP in my 19-4 snub, 66-3 snub and 642. I do use BB's 180 bear loads in my 19-8 for woods carry.

Def go with Speer Gold Dot Short barrel 135+P.

Look in to the Lehigh Defense rounds. The have been tested and perform very well in .380. No worrying about them having to expand, and the bullet creates lots of damage. If I carried a snubnose, I'd load it with these.



38 Special +P 140gr Xtreme Penetrator Ammunition – Lehigh Defense, LLC

I don't think so. None of the bolded above will reverse results. The case you are referring to is a result of cherry-picking data, which is not statistics at all, but rather wrapping a selection of chosen individual cases in the math of statistics and pretending that it is "science." You know - like M&S.

Edit: Sorry if this comes across as a disagreement with BB57. It is not. In fact, I believe that either misunderstanding or outright misuse of statistics, one of his first two choices, was exactly what he was observing. I merely wanted to clarify that the bolded errors would not lead to a ridiculous conclusion like the cited example.

Unless you're LE or military, the probability of actually using your gun against another person is so close to zero it's virtually impossible to measure. Things could change; and, if they do, I will begin to worry more about putting some high-end loads in my little snubs. Actually, if things change, all of my carry and house guns will be 357 Magnums with 4 inch or longer barrels. . .not 38 snubs! For now they are all 38 snubs loaded with wad cutters for my wife and with standard velocity semi wad cutters for me.

__________________
Dr. B

I remember reading a mag article where the author recommended the old 200gr LBN .38 special loading for the snub-nose revolver because the bullet tumbled in the victim's body.

Lots of info on lots of different types of ammo on this thread however the most important issue in using a handgun in self defense is shot placement. Center Mass Armpit Level. I went on the job in 1967 and the issued .38 special ammo was 158 grain RNL. Most suspects shot with that round survived unless the rounds on target were Center Mass Armpit Level. When rounds were placed in that area violent aggression had a tendency to rapidly cease and mortality rates took a dramatic increase. I am not advocating using RNL or FMJ in defense handguns. I am advocating finding a good defense load for your individual handgun that you can regularly place on a Reduced B-27 style target in the Center Mass Armpit Level area and practicing on a regular basis and if possible adding some stress into your practice. To reply to the initial question by the OP I personnally use Fiocchi 95 grain XTP in my Glock 42. I use HP ammo in all my carry guns. Ammo used by law enforcement is usually a safe bet for civilian self defense use.The afformention post is of course JMHO

My issued 4 inch S&W Model 686-6 duty revolver is loaded with Remington 125 grain SJHP .357 Magnum loads with 4 speed loaders on my belt. My 3 inch S&W Model 13-3 off-duty revolver is loaded with Speer 135 grain GDHP .357 Magnum "Short Barrel" loads with, when wearing a jacket, 2 speed loaders in the pockets. My S&W 642-2 is loaded with Speer 135 grain GDHP .38 Spl +P "Short Barrel" loads. My 2 inch S&W Model 12-2 (1962 vintage) is loaded with Buffalo Bore 158 grain LSWCHP-GC Standard Pressure .38 Spl loads, as is my 4 inch tapered barrel S&W Model 10-5 (1977 vintage). The (minimum 2) Bianchi Speed Strips I carry with the K-frames and J-frame hold the same BB .38 Spl loads.

I use the Monarch .38 Spl 158 grain SJHP for practice ammo if I haven't been keeping up with my reloading. It also makes up the bulk of my SHTF ammo since it is cheaper than anything other than gun show reloads and is plenty accurate in all of my guns.

I rarely go out without two and sometimes three of the guns above. They all have the same manual of arms and can all use the same .38 ammunition. I don't consider myself less than well-armed with any of them.

__________________
CPT, Armor (Ret)
Luke 22:36

Does the .45 Governor qualify as a snub nose? I've been thinking about using the Winchester .410 shotgun shells with 3 full wadcutters in front of some BBs.