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Old 12-08-2016, 06:35 PM
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Default Road Rage Shooting

Man Who Killed NFL Star Joe McKnight In Road Rage Attack Charged

By now, I'm sure you heard of the apparent road age shooting of NFL running back Joe McKnight, allegedly by an armed motorist who remained at the scene and surrendered a licensed handgun to police. The motorist has since been arrested on manslaughter charges.

In my own 54 years of driving, I think I've witnessed every conceivable driving outrage from obscene gestures, vehicles being used as weapons and every known form of reckless driving. I'll go so far as to admit that as a young man I would feel my blood boil at the antics I witnessed or were directed at me.

In those 54 driving years, almost all of it while armed, I'd like to offer a few observations. If you lawfully defend yourself in your home, place of business or when caught up in a sudden retail store robbery, you are at least on neutral legal ground and the authorities will likely view you as a victim. With road rage, as with those late-night shootings outside watering holes. so-called gentlemen' clubs or between people who know each other, authorities will view everyone with strong suspicion. Most states or municipalities expect you to retreat if you can do so with complete safety.

I'm speaking in generalities, I have no knowledge of the specific circumstances involved in McKnight's death. Because I'm frequently armed, I make every effort to avoid road rage incidents by not challenging other motorists. If a weaving motorist cuts in too close, I re-establish a safe distance between vehicles rather than attempt to pull alongside him to make an obscene gesture. I'll let the speed demons have the left lane, stay out of their way and just use it to pass. I won't race anyone to a parking spot or hit the brakes if you tailgate me. I won't take aggressive action against people driving half the speed limit.

If the driver in front of me has no reaction to the green light, I'll very lightly tap the horn rather than blare it for an interval, an action that most drivers would find to be aggressive and hostile.
If I signal to change lanes and the oncoming vehicle accelerates to prevent my lane change, I just let it go and take the next opportunity.

Having been in law enforcement for decades and having read thousands of use-of-force incidents, there are some compelling factors that people tend to overlook. If you're arrested, you're going to need an attorney. My guess is that his initial effort to just get you out on bail will run about $20,000.00. If you're charged, consider yourself fortunate if your lawyer's fees are under six figures.

If you face a criminal trial and are found found not guilty, your lawyer still gets paid. The municipality bringing the charges will not reimburse you for legal fees. If you're found guilty, you now have to consider how your family will support itself and make the mortgage payments with you in prison. You may have already taken a second mortgage on the house to pay legal fees.

Then, there's the matter of civil responsibility, whether you win or lose a criminal trial, or even if the grand jury votes a no true bill, you may still be sued civilly, requiring more lawyer's fees and the possibility of a heavy judgment against you. In a civil trail, the plaintiff need only present a preponderance of evidence rather than evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Mainly for these reasons, it's easier and far less costly to swallow your pride and to not go tit-for-tat with another motorist.

A personal umbrella policy serves as an extension of your homeowners and automobile insurance. It will not cover shooting incidents unless it was purely accidental and in your home.

There are indeed some lunatics on the road. If you're certain you're being followed, either resulting from a road rage matter or you happen to be carrying you store's daily receipts, try to drive to a police station or somewhere that people are present. Don't drive home. Call 911 if you can. Keep your car moving. Do not ever pull over to confront a motorist. He may be faster, younger and a better shot than you are. If you're involved in a driving incident, don't assume it's over. He may be the tenacious type who demands his pound of flesh. He may be following you.

Some nuts don't wait. They will pull alongside and open fire on you. Such an incident occurred a few year ago on New York's Grand Central Parkway, near LaGuardia Int'l Airport. The gunman shot and killed the other motorist's wife in the passenger seat. I've also noticed that many suburban highway signs are riddled with bullet holes--more evidence that there are dangerous, thoughtless people on the road.

I'm all for concealed carry. I do it myself. But, I won't let the presence of my sidearm cause me to enter into a situation I could have easily walked or driven away from. I hope you feel the same.

Last edited by federali; 12-08-2016 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 12-08-2016, 06:58 PM
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All good common sense and I know my wife agree's with you 100%. She reminds me everytime I lose my temper on the hiway. Thanks for your reminder.


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Old 12-08-2016, 07:15 PM
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Thanks for the reminder.
I drive as part of my job and am getting better at blowing stupid people off, but I could and should be better at it.

Last edited by ralph7; 12-08-2016 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 12-08-2016, 07:41 PM
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I actually grew up not too far from where the McKnight shooting occurred, and while of course I have no details on that event I will say that for whatever reason road rage incidents there often tend to involve firearms with little or no reason for such escalation. I only once had to indicate, without display, the fact I myself was carrying in the dark days immediately after Hurricane Katrina, but needless to say I don't miss driving in those areas.
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Old 12-08-2016, 07:45 PM
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Wasn't there a road rage incident where the two drivers killed each other? I think in Michigan?!?? A few years ago!

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Old 12-08-2016, 07:53 PM
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Wasn't there a road rage incident where the two drivers killed each other? I think in Michigan?!?? A few years ago!
Yeah, Michigan in 2013. A roadside public gun fight by two grown men who should have known better.
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Old 12-08-2016, 08:00 PM
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A very thoughtful and wise posting that I am 100% in favor of. One thing that obtaining a permit to carry did for me was to calm me down a bit on the highways. Because engaging in Road Rage while armed just isn't the least bit justifiable but it is a very good way to see the insides of our Justice System first hand. Something I just don't have any interest in doing. However, I will admit that there have been times when I wished I had a Dis integrator Ray or perhaps a couple of Photon Torpedo's.
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Old 12-08-2016, 08:01 PM
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Yeah, Michigan in 2013. A roadside public gun fight by two grown men who should have known better.
Yea those two Einsteins

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Old 12-08-2016, 09:36 PM
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Good post, Paul.

I learned early in life that I cannot undo or take back the things done and said in moments of rage.

In this present climate, controlling ones desire to respond to hostile motorists is an almost Sisyphusian task. So, when I'm tempted, I have taught my self to visualize myself in an orange jumpsuit and flip-flops.

Works every time.
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Old 12-08-2016, 10:49 PM
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Interesting and sobering post, thanks.

I had an "almost" incident recently, driving back from a night-time event in my (relatively quiet) hometown; pretty sure I had not cut anyone off or anything similar. A car without lights on pulled next to me in the left lane and the occupants shouted in my direction. I sped up, slowed down and they matched my speed changes for a few hundred feet. I was far away from a safe or public place to stop, so I just made a sudden (legal) right turn that I knew they could not match. Don't know if I avoided anything serious but am glad I didn't have to find out.

Be careful out there.
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Old 12-09-2016, 06:03 PM
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When you carry a firearm you must be the better and smarter person ALL of the time. I do not care if you have to drive off,... turn off, go to a Police, Sheriff's, or Highway Patrol station to disengage. It's a last resort to use that weapon and we must be aware of that. That is not to say you shouldn't defend oneself if the need to do so presents itself but we must strive to avoid if possible.
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Old 12-09-2016, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustyt1953 View Post
Good post, Paul.

I learned early in life that I cannot undo or take back the things done and said in moments of rage.

In this present climate, controlling ones desire to respond to hostile motorists is an almost Sisyphusian task. So, when I'm tempted, I have taught my self to visualize myself in an orange jumpsuit and flip-flops.

Works every time.
Rusty, I just imagined you in flip flops and a jump suit....I may not get that image out of my mind!! LOL.
All joking aside, very good reminder to all of us, it just isn't worth the price we would pay. Thanks.
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Old 12-09-2016, 06:21 PM
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I've had to reach for a gun in a motor vehicle more than a few times but each time the opportunity for evasion appeared and that's what I did. Adios, no gunfight required.

Good post!
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Old 12-11-2016, 04:44 PM
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I was just reading about a road rage incident a respected gun writer described in one of his books. No shots were fired, but there was an expensive and trying legal saga for the victim of the road rage who was wrongly accused as a result.

Years ago, an LE associate about got run off the road by a couple of thugs. After the encounter, in which he claimed he had not brandished a handgun, he got charged for it. His car displayed an LE union sticker in the back window, which probably helped inspire accusations. Nevertheless, he was prosecuted but the accusers didn't bother to show up so the charges were dismissed... after a lot of money got spent on attorneys, etc.

In this day and age, it makes just as much sense to drive defensively and not give the aggressor the indication that you're trying to up his ante. I think that people are just as influenced by TV car chases where even an average vehicle gets chased down and run off a twisting road by something as poor handling as an old van or tow truck as they are of TV gun fighting; they may not realize that there are a lot of evasive measures that one can take with an automobile to get away and avoid a greater mishap than to stand one's ground in the middle of the street.

Last edited by walkin' trails; 12-11-2016 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 12-11-2016, 05:05 PM
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Great Advice
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Old 12-11-2016, 08:00 PM
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Just heard a TV news media report regarding a road rage incident which occurred in Houston, TX either last night or this morning. It turned deadly when one of the combatants pulled a knife in what quickly became a gun fight. Charges had not been filed. Yet............. hardcase60
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Old 12-11-2016, 10:34 PM
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As the Founder of the Church of Devout Cowardice, I've always found it better to avoid conflict. I have yet to draw a firearm after 6 years of conceal-carry.

Thanks for a great reminder why we need to keep cool.

BTW, the AARP Defensive Driving course is very useful...and you'll save on insurance.
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Old 12-12-2016, 06:57 AM
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I responded to the other...well, I can be charitable here, and just say "incorrect" post in the other thread.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/139367828-post48.html

But, you have one point in your favor. Exiting your car and engaging your eventual attacker does create an opportunity for him to claim that you attacked him. If you choose to do so, you'd do well to be able to articulate why you felt you were in no danger, and left your car, and how you came to believe you were in immediate and life-threatening jeopardy.

It's also a poor decision, tactically. Unless your window and door are open, you're fairly well-protected from physical attack. Why remove a barrier between you and your aggressor? That said, it's not impenetrable protection, and sitting in the driver's seat makes it hard to defend yourself from either a gunman or a physical attack.

All that garbage about making sure your attacker is left dead, though? That's just horribly wrong. Read the other post.
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Old 12-12-2016, 08:39 AM
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I suspect it is also well to remember that as a rule, CCW holders should never, ever, pull their firearm unless their life----or the life of a family member----is threatened.
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Old 12-12-2016, 09:09 AM
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As always, the advice given by Federali is good, sound, and to the point but I know around here, in the Tidewater area (coastal Virginia) there are some insurance scams going on that a CCW holder with your EDC on person, or even on board ought to watch out for and be aware of.

The first scam is called "bump and sue" whereby you're at a red light, car bumps you hard in the butt, then the "occupants" later sue you and your insurance company for neck and back injuries, claiming you slammed on the brakes, yada, yada.

The second scam, more violent than the first, is the "bump and rob".....same scenario, just when you jump out of your vehicle, and look to the rear of your car to see the damage, they (usually 2 to 4) bail out and rob, wound, or worse, kill.

With the above posts in mind, imagine you bailing out with your EDC....it would appear that around here at least...you would be the "aggressor" no matter what ensued.

The above "bump and ??" actually happened to me in Norfolk VA about 6 years ago. The hit was fairly hard but not enough to disable my car but I had wife and 2 daughters aboard so I just drove ahead about a block to a well lit gas station with a cop car idling there.....never found the car or drivers that hit me, but with the police report at least my insurance company paid the repairs, and I shudder to think if I had bailed out with the EDC as I have no clue what their intentions were, but since they didn't stick around either...I assume "not good for me and mine".
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Old 12-12-2016, 09:42 AM
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... around here, in the Tidewater area (coastal Virginia) ...

The second scam, more violent than the first, is the "bump and rob".....same scenario, just when you jump out of your vehicle, and look to the rear of your car to see the damage, they (usually 2 to 4) bail out and rob, wound, or worse, kill.
Funny enough, a billion years ago, in the 60's, mom was driving though Tidewater VA (with kids in the car) when someone leaped on the roof, beating on the windshield. Reaching under the seat, she removed a K-22 or K-38 and Mr. Miscreant decided he had better places to be ...
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Old 12-12-2016, 09:52 AM
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Default It Isn't Always Road Rage

Cmansguns touches on a very good point: some driving incidents are indeed scams. Particularly for women but also for men, do not allow yourself to be taken from the site of the initial confrontation to another place of the gunman's choosing. You have to ask yourself, why does my assailant want to take me somewhere? Perhaps its for an intended sexual assault but also to possibly consummate an intended crime in a more desolate area and where the assailant perceives a better chance of escaping detection. What does my assailant want to do at another place that he feels he can't do where you are at the moment?

More knowledgeable authorities than me advise that your chances of surviving are better if you flee than if you comply with an armed assailant's demands that involve going to a different area, such as behind the building you're in front of.

Also, if you allow an adversary to get to your side window, he can make it nearly impossible for you to effectively use a handgun if he has even rudimentary police or tactical training.

Last edited by federali; 12-12-2016 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 12-12-2016, 10:55 AM
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Losing your temper is one thing, we all do that from time to time. Losing self control with a deadly weapon is quite another. I have carried a firearm for 49 years and counting. I have never lost my self control, and doubt I ever will. 30 years as a peace officer will teach you self control like no other job. The public trusts you with a deadly weapon to protect them with, they expect you to use it only when you are legally able to do so.

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Old 12-12-2016, 09:57 PM
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Having the power to take a human life, whether by gun or by car, should be a very sobering fact of life.

Unfortunately it isn't for some people.

Avoid those people.
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Old 12-12-2016, 10:03 PM
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Windshield cameras are getting cheaper, and you can get a bracket to mount a smart phone on the rearview while it records your trip. Starting to sound better every day. Probably an app available to transmit to your server or the cloud if you need it.
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Old 12-12-2016, 10:34 PM
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There was an earlier similar case which occurred in February another pro football player killed. Are they especially sensitive to feeling "dissed" in traffic? below is a link:
Ex-NFL Star Will Smith’s Killer Convicted on Manslaughter in Road Rage Shooting
Bad news, keep a cool head!
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Old 12-14-2016, 09:40 AM
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Thank you, federali, for posting these things. Probably the most important and helpful post I've seen on the forum in a long time.

Regards,
Andy
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Old 12-16-2016, 11:31 PM
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Good read and good reasoning behind each and every statement.
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