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  #51  
Old 12-17-2016, 12:46 AM
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Old 12-17-2016, 10:16 AM
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Another anecdotal story I'll throw out there ...
Long ago, when Dad was still with us and reasonably able to take care of himself, there was an incident where he was confronted with an intruder in his house.


Mom and Dad lived way out in the country. They were awakened in the wee hours of a bitterly cold winter morning by the dog who was tied up to his dog house. The dog was putting up an incredible racket, so Dad got up, grabbed a 12 gauge, and investigated.


He turned on the kitchen light to see a teenager / young man in the kitchen, desperately holding his ears, pounding his arms with his hands, ... the guy looked almost frozen.


Dad demanded what he was doing there. The guy gave some half-baked story about his car going in the ditch and him almost freezing to death hiking to the nearest house. Later the real story came out: He was driving around impaired, the police tried to stop him and he fled.


He knew the back roads pretty well so he was able to put some distance between his car and the police car by taking a lot of sudden turns down dirt roads. At some point, he lost control of his car and went in a deep ditch, hopelessly mired in the snow. So then this genius decided to run into the woods and hide.


The police looked for him for about an hour, but were not inclined to go wading though deep snow to track him in the wooded areas and fields. They had a tow truck come and remove his car, presumably figuring they could pick him up later. (Apparently they knew the car and driver from previous misadventures.)


So anyway, the guy had stayed out in the woods so long he was in danger of frostbite (his ears especially). He came in my parent's house, apparently through a door one of them had inadvertently left unlocked. Remember, this was decades ago, when, at least in their area, break ins were almost unheard of.


The guy was so cold he begged my Dad not throw him out. Turned out Dad sort of knew his folks so he allowed him to make a phone call and they came to rescue the miscreant. The next day he turned himself in to the police.


This could have turned out much worse for my parents. Obviously, their home security plan was in need of drastic revision. However, I'm glad that Dad did not splatter that guy's guts all over the kitchen!
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Old 12-17-2016, 10:48 AM
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No knock raids at the wrong address do happen. I'm sure superintendents have let in police/firefights/paramedics into apartments in occasion and have had the wrong apartment.

Sometimes police knock and get no answer(occupant on the shower, asleep, stepped out the back door).

Intruders don't just come in homes uninvited in the middle of night.

I'm still baffled at the shoot on sight mentality. To shoot in any situation, you first have to make visual contact(unless you folks plan on shooting through walls or at figures in the dark) and you should be able to instantly recognize if using lethal force is warranted. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. You don't jeopardize your safety or ability to respond effectively by simply positively identifying the target. If you think that, please get some training.

For example.. If you were to find an 8 year old Down syndrome boy sitting on your floor playing with toys after having climbed through you window because he liked your Christmas tree, I would sincerely hope you wouldn't immediately don't shoot him. You may say that could never happen, but trust me it can.

I remember Robert Downey Jr. broke into a home years ago to sleep off a drug binge IIRC. I guess if it had been the home of some people on here, we would have a different ironman today.

As a Christian, I don't exactly relish the idea of killing another human being unnecessarily nor am I found of spending the rest of my life in prison.
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  #54  
Old 12-17-2016, 11:29 AM
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State and local laws differ, obviously. But in my case, I try to keep everything as simple as possible. I always have self defense guns loaded and ready to fire. I don't like safeties because they can be a distraction in a stressful situation. I'm not going to have to chamber a round.

A properly designed alarm system provides layers of protection. And there should be a fob with a panic button by the bed. It's easier to push the button to get help than be messing around on the phone with a possible threat in your home.

The alarm system should have an audible alert (siren) to deter entry in the first place. If it goes off, push the panic button and hunker down in a safe place...armed and ready to defend yourself.

All I want to be concerned with, at that point, is accurately determining if there is a threat. You position yourself in a protected position where you can view the limited access points to the room you're in. You watch, listen and have a good light ready, if necessary. Your spouse can operate the light, but you have to already have a plan in place and know what to do...and when.
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Old 12-17-2016, 01:32 PM
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BANG... Oooooops... I thought it was an intruder.

The circumstances can be anything.

Here's one that happened just a couple weeks ago. Killed a shadow...


Friday, November 18, 2016

HAMILTON TWP., N.J. (WPVI) -- Investigators say it appears a woman shot and killed her friend who she apparently mistook for a home intruder in her Mercer County, New Jersey home.

It happened around 11:23 p.m. Thursday at the intersection of Genesee Street and East Park Avenue.

Officers arrived to find 50-year-old Kelvin Watford of Willingboro, New Jersey lying at the bottom of the stairs with a gunshot wound to his chest. He was pronounced dead at the scene.

According to investigators, the woman, identified by sources as 51-year-old Pauline Lloyd, was on the phone with Watford.

He apparently told Lloyd he was near the George Washington Bridge returning from a trip but was actually letting himself in the house to surprise her.

Investigators believe Watford was attempting to surprise his friend.

As the woman continued to talk to Watford on the phone, she heard a dog barking and noises outside of her house.

The noises outside of her house continued and she retrieved her gun, police say, then heard someone inside of her house.

She opened her bedroom door, and saw the shadow of a person in the dark on the stairs, and fired one gunshot, police say.

More details...

http://6abc.com/news/police-nj-woman...ruder/1613491/
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  #56  
Old 12-17-2016, 03:26 PM
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Surprise! Surprise!

Castle Doctrine can get sticky if you know the person you killed in self defense. Stranger? No problem. Acquaintance? We've got a few more questions for you.
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Old 12-17-2016, 07:23 PM
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"and you should be able to instantly recognize if using lethal force is warranted. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. You don't jeopardize your safety or ability to respond effectively by simply positively identifying the target. If you think that, please get some training"

Would be interested in list of specific times you think (or you instructor(s) think lethal force is warranted?. What exactly do you think a threat looks like? Like some have said, everyone has a different living situation. Am not law enforcement official on the job, but speaking as homeowner. Gee, if you see your wife sneaking back into the house at night and shoot her, guess what?

Would ask a law enforcement official, but am of opinion even a no knock warrant entails them identifying them selves as law enforcement coming through the door. Firefighters enter houses on fire, yea that fits a self defense scenario.

The example of the 8 year old down syndrome child doesn't even warrant an answer.

Am thinking all of us need some common sense.

Am not of the opinion an "unarmed" individual can not be a threat, as the tv commentators would like to indoctrinate the public to believe.
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Old 12-17-2016, 08:38 PM
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I would not give away my position with any kind of a sound or a verbal warning !!!

If someone is in my home uninvited they are a threat to me .. my wife would call 9-1-1 and be standing behind the back of a large brick chimney for cover .. if they would get past my GSD there would be no verbal warnings from me !! A night light in the kitchen lights the hall so they would be silhouetted if they walked toward the bedrooms .. they would have had to break thru a dead Bolt on a door made in 1890 that is 2 inches thick and the door jam made of the same true lumber 2x6's from 1890 ..

They wouldn't be a drunken neighbor I live on a country road with no neighbors 1/2 mile near me .. or a teen age kid from next door .. all my neighbors kids are long grown and gone ..
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Old 12-17-2016, 11:13 PM
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If I killed somebody, I would very much like to be able to say that I did everything I could to avoid it--both for legal and ethical reasons. If you don't go looking for the trouble, you'll have a much better chance of being able to identify the threat and issue verbal warnings.

Happened a few years ago around here. Guy hears someone knocking around the ground floor of his house, so he calls 9-1-1, arms himself and covers the upstairs hallway to protect the bedrooms. Eventually, the intruder finds the stairs and starts climbing them.

The homeowner issues multiple warnings, but the intruder just keeps coming. As the guy reaches the top of the stairs, the homeowner opens fire and kills him.

Turns out it was a neighbor. The guy got drunk, and being it was a suburban Levittown type of place, "came home" to the wrong house. Complicating matters, the poor sod barely spoke any English.

Homeowner wasn't tried, and never had any legal issues, as it was documented that he'd done everything possible to avoid shooting the deceased.
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  #60  
Old 12-17-2016, 11:54 PM
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If I killed somebody, I would very much like to be able to say that I did everything I could to avoid it--both for legal and ethical reasons. If you don't go looking for the trouble, you'll have a much better chance of being able to identify the threat and issue verbal warnings.

Happened a few years ago around here. Guy hears someone knocking around the ground floor of his house, so he calls 9-1-1, arms himself and covers the upstairs hallway to protect the bedrooms. Eventually, the intruder finds the stairs and starts climbing them.

The homeowner issues multiple warnings, but the intruder just keeps coming. As the guy reaches the top of the stairs, the homeowner opens fire and kills him.

Turns out it was a neighbor. The guy got drunk, and being it was a suburban Levittown type of place, "came home" to the wrong house. Complicating matters, the poor sod barely spoke any English.

Homeowner wasn't tried, and never had any legal issues, as it was documented that he'd done everything possible to avoid shooting the deceased.
Did the neighbor have a key?
The homeowner did everything he was suppose to do, which is why he wasn't tried. Unfortunatelly, his neighbor didn't do his part.
Sounds like a good case for not getting drunk - it can have consequences...in this case severe consequences.
Still, I'm not an advocate of making myself responsible for the poor choices of other people.
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Old 12-18-2016, 01:48 AM
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I think this is the case Wise_A is referring to. Tragic.

Parents Cry Murder After Drunk Teen Killed in Home Invasion - ABC News
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  #62  
Old 12-18-2016, 03:59 AM
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Actually, no. It was in western NYS, adult male, all shots forward of the lateral midline. There was very little question as to its justifiability.

This case you mention, though, is a great example of what happens after the shooting.

--The victim's family is consulted for public testimony: "'At no point, from the homeowners'...testimony, the account of the events, did he ever describe Caleb in any way being aggressive."
Doesn't matter a ton in this case. He approached the homeowner, ignored pleas to leave, and approached a bedroom the homeowner knew to be occupied. A reasonable person could conclude he wasn't acting normally. He ignored the presence of a firearm, and continued towards the bedroom even after he'd been shot. It's also entirely reasonable to conclude that if he entered the bedroom, the situation could easily escalate from "intruder" to "intruder with hostage".

--The deceased's sins are forgiven. Note the neck-up picture used of a smiling teen--not a full-body shot showing his height and build. And more unsworn public testimony from friends: "He's not much of a drinker, but he just wanted to try some that night."
The deceased tweeted, "Honestly who's throwin a party tonight?!", and "Somebody make a party right now. I'm tryna have fun tonight no lie."

--Ignorance rains supreme. After-the-fact quarterbacking suggestions from the family are given credence: "You could have...shot him in the leg. Instead, he lined himself up at the perfect angle to shoot a hollow point bullet through my son's lung and explode his chest and then a fourth shot at his head for good measure."
Deadly physical force is deadly physical force. Whether you aim at a person's head, chest, or leg, it's still deadly physical force. Take note of how the grieving mother is allowed to describe a situation she did not witness, and ascribe intent and motivation to a man she's never met. Grounds for objection in a courtroom, but not in the court of public opinion. Also note the vilification of hollowpoint ammunition--indeed, it can be argued that hollowpoints increase the subject's chances of success, by effecting a "stop" with fewer hits.

All throughout this, you, and the police, are not allowed to respond. Media attention will wane long before the case is closed and the truth is allowed to be broadcast.

That, friends, is what happens when someone is shot. The public and the media cannot accept that the deceased, in this case, is a victim of underage drinking and his own poor decisions. Someone still alive must be held to blame. Make no mistake, what happened was a tragedy. The errors of youth shouldn't cost a young man his life, but the reality is that they do--all the time.

Hence, why I advocate for avoiding the use of deadly force where it is possible to do so safely, even beyond one's strict legal duties. In a shooting, one life is taken, and another is, as often as not, ruined.
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Old 12-18-2016, 09:08 AM
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That, friends, is what happens when someone is shot. The public and the media cannot accept that the deceased, in this case, is a victim of underage drinking and his own poor decisions. Someone still alive must be held to blame. Make no mistake, what happened was a tragedy. The errors of youth shouldn't cost a young man his life, but the reality is that they do--all the time.
Maybe where you live.

Around here, when the mother tells the local fishwrap, "He was a good kid. He wanted to go to college," people just laugh.

Nothing like the anecdote you state has happened in my county in the 20 years I have lived here. If a stranger is in my house, they are in mortal danger. I'm am not going to pause to wonder if he has a scholarship to NC State. I will wonder if he is acting alone, or if there are more.

A few years ago, there were 3 different home invasions within 500 yards of my house. Three perps were later caught and are still in prison. This is reality, not some kid on a drinking binge.
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Old 12-18-2016, 09:49 AM
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Actually, no. It was in western NYS, adult male, all shots forward of the lateral midline. There was very little question as to its justifiability.

This case you mention, though, is a great example of what happens after the shooting.

--The victim's family is consulted for public testimony: "'At no point, from the homeowners'...testimony, the account of the events, did he ever describe Caleb in any way being aggressive."
Doesn't matter a ton in this case. He approached the homeowner, ignored pleas to leave, and approached a bedroom the homeowner knew to be occupied. A reasonable person could conclude he wasn't acting normally. He ignored the presence of a firearm, and continued towards the bedroom even after he'd been shot. It's also entirely reasonable to conclude that if he entered the bedroom, the situation could easily escalate from "intruder" to "intruder with hostage".

--The deceased's sins are forgiven. Note the neck-up picture used of a smiling teen--not a full-body shot showing his height and build. And more unsworn public testimony from friends: "He's not much of a drinker, but he just wanted to try some that night."
The deceased tweeted, "Honestly who's throwin a party tonight?!", and "Somebody make a party right now. I'm tryna have fun tonight no lie."

--Ignorance rains supreme. After-the-fact quarterbacking suggestions from the family are given credence: "You could have...shot him in the leg. Instead, he lined himself up at the perfect angle to shoot a hollow point bullet through my son's lung and explode his chest and then a fourth shot at his head for good measure."
Deadly physical force is deadly physical force. Whether you aim at a person's head, chest, or leg, it's still deadly physical force. Take note of how the grieving mother is allowed to describe a situation she did not witness, and ascribe intent and motivation to a man she's never met. Grounds for objection in a courtroom, but not in the court of public opinion. Also note the vilification of hollowpoint ammunition--indeed, it can be argued that hollowpoints increase the subject's chances of success, by effecting a "stop" with fewer hits.

All throughout this, you, and the police, are not allowed to respond. Media attention will wane long before the case is closed and the truth is allowed to be broadcast.

That, friends, is what happens when someone is shot. The public and the media cannot accept that the deceased, in this case, is a victim of underage drinking and his own poor decisions. Someone still alive must be held to blame. Make no mistake, what happened was a tragedy. The errors of youth shouldn't cost a young man his life, but the reality is that they do--all the time.

Hence, why I advocate for avoiding the use of deadly force where it is possible to do so safely, even beyond one's strict legal duties. In a shooting, one life is taken, and another is, as often as not, ruined.
We had a trial in this state 2 weeks ago that ended in a hung jury. It was a slam dunk for the prosecution, the TV stations across the state showed an officer shooting a fleeing suspect at least once a week while the trial was coming. Well over a year that's all we saw, in fact all the nation saw. When the trial came ALL of the video was shown and there was NO way to get a guilty verdict from 12 thinking people. So then for several days the media reported there was 1 hold out that would not give a guilty verdict. Then we find out from the jury foreman there were 5 holdouts. Local media, national media, all liars of the first sort. If you have a justifiable shooting on or in your property be prepared for trouble from every angle. When my invasion occurred, in the 70s, we lived in a different world. I was able to capture 1 of the 3 which made it possible to have the other 2 in jail in just hours. Today, my life's experiences have taught me a whole different set of rules. Unfortunately, I have to live by these rules BUT only up to a point.
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Old 12-18-2016, 12:29 PM
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Would be interested in list of specific times you think (or you instructor(s) think lethal force is warranted?. What exactly do you think a threat looks like? Like some have said, everyone has a different living situation. Am not law enforcement official on the job, but speaking as homeowner. Gee, if you see your wife sneaking back into the house at night and shoot her, guess what?

Would ask a law enforcement official, but am of opinion even a no knock warrant entails them identifying them selves as law enforcement coming through the door. Firefighters enter houses on fire, yea that fits a self defense scenario.

The example of the 8 year old down syndrome child doesn't even warrant an answer.

Am thinking all of us need some common sense.

Am not of the opinion an "unarmed" individual can not be a threat, as the tv commentators would like to indoctrinate the public to believe.
Any intruder(s) in my home would initially be considered a threat. That doesn't mean I would immediately or ever need to shoot them. There are many variables and every scenario will be different, but I think there are some general guidelines of when using lethal force is justifiable.

Here are some quotes from Massad Ayoobs book "In the Gravest Extreme" that would be prudent to follow on when it's appropriate to use lethal force irregardless of the specific situation or what your local laws happen to be...

1. "Only when undertaken to escape imminent and unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm."

2. "The attacker must not merely have made the threat to attack, but must be in a position where he is obviously and immediately capable of carrying out that threat."

3. "The best rule is to resort to deadly force only when life and limb are in jeopardy."

"Reasonableness" should factor in greatly. You can't just say you felt threatened or viewed another individual as a threat. The threat must be real where a reasonable person would conclude that death or grave bodily harm is likely if lethal force is not used. No one would believe or agree that a young, strong 200 lb man that has a confused 100 lb 80 year old grandmother with Alzheimer's wearing nothing but a nightgown who accidently wandered into their home at gunpoint is a threat requiring lethal force. This concept was greatly distorted during the Zimmerman trial.

Don't underestimate the predicaments developmentally disabled children can get into. I am intimately familiar with the world of special needs kids and have witnessed it first hand. They are prone to run away from home and will sometimes attempt to enter random houses for harmless reasons such as getting a drink or using the bathroom unaware of what they are doing or the dangers involved.

An unarmed individual can indeed be a threat. I have a family to protect and an apparently unarmed man who is advancing on me or moving towards my family, I would most likely fire. If I had an individual at gunpoint, could see their hands and they are complying with my commands, then I don't see them as an immediate threat and would not fire. That could change at any moment and warrant a lethal force response. However, individual factors and "Disparity of Force" are/should be a consideration. An elderly individual in a wheelchair would have different capabilities and force options available to them than a 250 lb professional MMA fighter and a large or even average sized male would obviously be viewed and perhaps dealt with differently than a woman or child.

"I will not put myself or my family at risk, but I will do anything I can to avoid shooting another human being for legal and ethical reasons." I would recommend everyone have that mindset no matter where you live, local laws or your personal beliefs.

A lot of this is indeed common sense.
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Old 12-18-2016, 01:15 PM
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New Jeresy incident above.

Was she in any real danger? No.

Will she be charged with a crime? Unlikely.
Will she be convicted of a crime? Chances are nil.
Will she be sued by the children and grand children for wrongful death? Maybe.
Will the cost of a wrongful death defense be pricey. Yes.
Will some of her friends, acquaintances, neighbors and co-workers forever look at her through the lens of having shot a man do death? Probably.
Will she forever regret and have a lifetime of nightmares over this killing? Maybe...

That's a lot of possible blowback for never being in any danger.
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Old 12-18-2016, 02:13 PM
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Arizona has both a "Castle" law and a "Stand Your Ground" law. Your home is your castle, and if anyone is in it without your knowledge and permission, you know they are not there to sell you Girl Scout cookies. The law is on your side if you decide that lethal force is necessary. You also have no duty to retreat if you are anywhere it is legal for you to be, you are in fear of death or serious injury, and you need to use whatever force is necessary to protect yourself. No permit is necessary for you to carry discreetly.

Some other states and political subdivisions thereof have imposed restrictions that do not allow the individual to be prepared and to apply their own reasonable judgment based on the situation. That really sucks. Over-regulation is rampant in this country, and this is just one example.

Given all of that, the best gunfight is the one that you can avoid. Your best defense mechanism is between your ears.

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Old 12-18-2016, 02:56 PM
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For starters, if you pull the ol' rack-the-shotgun move from an upstairs bedroom with an attacker on the ground floor, he now has the option to fire up through the floor at you, while you still don't have a good picture of where he is.

In a ranch-style, he can also choose to move outside and flank your position, firing through an exterior window.

And at the very least, he now has a very good idea of what room he can expect trouble from.

If he's clever, he also now knows what style of weapon you're armed with. If he's smart, he understands its limitations. He can consider how best to proceed before engaging, while you will be forced to respond on-the-spot. You always want to maintain as much initiative as possible.

Using a flashlight certainly reveals your position, but it also offers a huge advantage if employed correctly. If you wait to turn on the light until your attacker comes into view, a sudden bright light will temporarily blind him. You may be slightly dazed as well, but nowhere near as badly, and you'll be ready for it. Even if he has a firearm of his own, he'll be taking shots in the dark.

Placement of the light is key. You want to ensure that there's no way he can get behind the beam, as it creates a well of darkness. For instance, if I shined a light straight through an open doorway, and then stood against the wall in a "slicing the pie"-type position facing the direction of my attacker, the doorway and wall outside the door would be brightly-lit. However, the hall that I was looking down outside the door would seem extra-dark to me, as my eyes would be adjusted to the beam. It's very likely that the attacker would see me before I saw him.

You might also choose to deploy the light remotely. For instance, if you're fairly certain that the attacker knows what room you're in, and knows that you're aware of his presence, you can place the flashlight several feet away, aimed at the corner he'll be approaching from. With a bright-enough light, you'll still be very hard to see, and his natural inclination will be to presume that you're behind the light source, and act (or aim) accordingly.

Verbal warnings should only be issued at the point of contact. By that time, the fight has more or less begun in a home-defense scenario. Note, however, that if you have the element of surprise, a loud, strongly-worded command and sudden bright light can discourage further attack and create compliance. It naturally triggers a fear response. Police, corrections officers, and even the military use this tactic all the time. Ever wonder why they shout and move fast all the time? Turns out criminals, recalcitrant prisoners, and terrorists aren't immune to surprise and fright.

Contact should be delayed as long as possible. Hopefully, you've already dialed 9-1-1. Delaying contact gives them time to arrive. Even if there's going to be a gunfight, do you want to have that fight with reinforcements 10 minutes away, or 2 minutes away?

That said, cover the areas that need to be covered. If you've got to control a hallway to prevent attackers from accessing your kid's bedoom, don't cede that ground in the name of delaying a fight.

Personally--and this area doesn't get enough attention in SD writings, I'd be interested in reading more--I don't plan on having a long conversation if I call 9-1-1. I'd hit the basics:

--Address
--Problem (how many attackers?)
--Directions to the house
--Key identifying features of your house ("I'm on the right side of Poplar Drive if you're coming from Main street. It's the one with the white mailbox and the huge oak tree, there's a red pickup in the driveway.")
--"I'm armed"
--Describe what you're wearing ("I'm wearing a white tank-top and leopard-print thong")
--What room of the house you're in ("I'm in the upstairs bedroom, to the right down the hall")

And then--"Sorry, I can't talk anymore, I'm going to put the phone down on the floor. Please don't try to call for me, I'm trying to stay hidden." Leaving the line open creates an auditory record, useful for reconstructing your hopefully sound decisions.

Roving bands of armed pill heads looking for Xboxes where you live? They're coming in to your house to steal, they aren't willing to enter with a gun when it's to easy for them to go back out the window they came in when confronted. I investigate hundreds of break ins a year and NONE involve the suspect possessing, carrying, using, owning any type of firearm. they will steal them if they can but that's about it.

If they break into your house armed then it's a drug rip.

I really enjoy this forum for the info and advice, there are some of us on here that perpetuate the "armed thugs are constantly breaking in to my house" mentality and in turn makes them experts on tactics, shot placement and ballistics, not to mention legal experts on firearm laws nationwide and even though they aren't Law Enforcement they know more than anyone about policy, procedure and evidentiary requirements to seize handguns for their local and state agencies.

This isn't necessarily directed at the post I've quoted but I felt the need to comment, sorry if I rambled

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Old 12-18-2016, 02:59 PM
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Great post! There have been some very wise replies. I know of a case in Nashville TN, where an intruder broke into a home and the home owner shot him but only wounded him. When to police arrived the intruder claimed that the home owner had invited him into his home for drinks, they had gotten into an argument and the home owner shot him.
Now the homeowner was suspected of attempted murder. The story didn't stick but it could have.
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Old 12-19-2016, 12:53 AM
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Roving bands of armed pill heads looking for Xboxes where you live? They're coming in to your house to steal, they aren't willing to enter with a gun when it's to easy for them to go back out the window they came in when confronted. I investigate hundreds of break ins a year and NONE involve the suspect possessing, carrying, using, owning any type of firearm. they will steal them if they can but that's about it.

If they break into your house armed then it's a drug rip.
I agree, an armed assailant seeking to kill is extremely unlikely. Then again, most of these situations are extremely unlikely.

Personally, I would start with a worst-case scenario and work from there. In other words, I wouldn't rule many plausible scenarios out, because the hazard is underestimating your opposition. Locally, I believe the worst-case plausible scenario is an escaped convict, or high-profile wanted person.

It's happened perhaps three times that I'm aware of in my area. One was the highly-publicized Bucky Phillips manhunt--Bucky was armed with long guns and wound up shooting three State Troopers, killing one. Another time, a prisoner escaped from town courthouse, a couple miles from where I do most of my fishing. That led to a multi-hour manhunt and structure-to-structure search, including more county deputies and State Troopers than that little hamlet has ever seen. I locked up the shed and the house, and canceled fishing for the day. Again, a lot of hunters in the area, a lot of camps unoccupied for the summer, and a lot of long guns stored unsecured and unsupervised.

The third time was the Richard Matt/David Sweat escape. Both of those guys were convicted murderers, and hid out in hunting cabins where rifles and shotguns are commonly stored.

Hence, while I'm not going to assume I'm facing armed terrorists or biker gangs or any other such outlandish unlikelihoods, I'm going to hope the intruder in the night is just some junkie, and plan my moves in case it isn't.

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Maybe where you live.

Around here, when the mother tells the local fishwrap, "He was a good kid. He wanted to go to college," people just laugh.

Nothing like the anecdote you state has happened in my county in the 20 years I have lived here. If a stranger is in my house, they are in mortal danger. I'm am not going to pause to wonder if he has a scholarship to NC State. I will wonder if he is acting alone, or if there are more.

A few years ago, there were 3 different home invasions within 500 yards of my house. Three perps were later caught and are still in prison. This is reality, not some kid on a drinking binge.
The point isn't that he shouldn't have shot. If that's what you thought I was writing, read it again. The homeowner did everything correctly. He issued warnings, he waited as long as possible to open fire, and his use of force was extremely well-controlled. His actions were reasonable by any standard.

The point is that despite doing everything correctly, he became fodder for the nightly news.

My point is that a lot of guys focus on fulfilling legal duties, but fail to understand that they can act legally and correctly, and still be crucified. Even if their actions are acceptable, or even laudable, by local mores. I'd prefer to not shoot if I can help it, and avoid all that.
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Old 12-19-2016, 01:34 AM
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A dog solves all these concerns.

Let's you know when something is wrong.

Lets the BG know you know.
Get a Rottweiler. In addition to sounding an alarm they pack a punch. I had one for 8 yrs.
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:38 AM
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My point is that a lot of guys focus on fulfilling legal duties, but fail to understand that they can act legally and correctly, and still be crucified.
And my point is it differs state to state, area to area. No one in my area will be crucified.

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I'd prefer to not shoot if I can help it, and avoid all that.
No one should want to shoot someone. Normal people who shoot someone will be bothered by it, even if the perp is a seriously bad guy. Disrupting a member of your own species is traumatic.

My problem with your assessment is that I infer hesitation from it.
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Old 12-19-2016, 09:42 AM
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Jack, I’ve read your question several times, and still don’t have the perfect, for me, answer. A day time forced entry attempt. Arm myself first, second try and get to phone. At this point I will have no other option but to confront suspect, and hope for the best. All of this assuming I’m on the same floor of the house as actor.

Night time, assuming it’s a burglary attempt, not violent home invasion and I’m upstairs. Call 911, arm myself move to top of stairs dropping to a kneeling position using wall for concealment, then advise actor police are in rout and I am armed. I will not attempt to detain actor or block his escape route. After one warning only if the actor attempts to climb stairs I will consider my life in danger and do whatever is necessary to defend myself.
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Old 12-19-2016, 12:29 PM
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I remember Robert Downey Jr. broke into a home years ago to sleep off a drug binge IIRC. I guess if it had been the home of some people on here, we would have a different iron man today.
Uhh, yeah, we'd need a different actor to play IRON MAN because I don't let people break into my house so they can sleep off drug binges. Sorry if that makes me a bad person.
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Old 12-19-2016, 05:06 PM
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And my point is it differs state to state, area to area. No one in my area will be crucified.
They don't have 20/20, CNN, and NBC Nightly News where you live?

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My problem with your assessment is that I infer hesitation from it.
Then you infer incorrectly.

Know that my state requires imminent grave danger before deadly physical force is allowable anyway. Inside the home, as opposed to outside, there's no specific duty to retreat, for the reasons I feel we agree on. In other states, deadly physical force is allowable even for unlawful entry, or even attempted unlawful entry.

Outside the home, in this grand old state, there's a bit of a contradiction. Deadly physical force is allowed in the face of imminent grave danger, but you also have a duty to retreat. Which I always found bizarre, although sitting here I can think of a few situations where the danger could be imminent but retreat is also safe and possible.

DPF is never allowed in defense of property. Although there's a bit of a jury nullification aspect, naturally. I think that a county jury would no-bill an indictment if one were to shoot somebody attempting to commit arson against a stable of horses, even though the normal requirement for an arson DPF is that you need to reasonably believe the structure is occupied, and horses are considered personal or commercial property, not life.

Quote:
No one should want to shoot someone. Normal people who shoot someone will be bothered by it, even if the perp is a seriously bad guy. Disrupting a member of your own species is traumatic.
Read these forums enough and you'll encounter a fair few people that post as if it doesn't bother them. And even ridicule morality-based arguments, which is kinda silly, imo. Think about it--I'm a gun guy, a CCW/SD guy, and I'm from a "blue" family. Pretty much the best possible person you could ever hope to sit on your jury. If I don't think that a particular course of action was moral or ethical, that doesn't bode well for what 12 randoms will think.

Hell, I've seen dumbwits in CCW classes literally ask the lawyer such fun things as:

"So, when am I allowed to shoot somebody?"

and my personal favorite,

"So if I'm at the gas station, and some guy robs the cashier, can I walk up and shoot that mother****** in the back of the head?"
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Old 12-19-2016, 06:56 PM
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They don't have 20/20, CNN, and NBC Nightly News where you live?
Nobody watches 'em here in the reddest of red states.
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Old 12-22-2016, 09:16 PM
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Talking clap on clap off

sense its Christmas time they are advertising the clapper again ,
"clap on clap off".

hook one to a lamp and clap and you have instant light
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Old 12-23-2016, 09:15 PM
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"The Clapper"


If you want to go the cheap route, you could buy some battery powered motion detector lights. I wouldn't want to lay the gun down and start clapping.
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Old 12-23-2016, 09:23 PM
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If you shoot twice, will the lights come on?
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Old 12-24-2016, 01:54 PM
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If an intruder was armed, he is someone who has communicated his intent and has chosen his demise. However someone carrying out the stereo is not putting me in imminent and unavoidable risk of death or great bodily harm. For me, to end a life because he may come back is not the path to go. Stay in your safe spot and call 911. If he advances on you despite warning that is a different scenario that forces you to stop the threat quickly.
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Old 01-04-2017, 04:02 PM
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We have some presumptions to get to the point where a homeowner needs to rack his weapon and load it because there is an intruder.

First, the scenario always goes to a solution involving lethal force, when the reality is a complete failure to harden the house to prevent it. How and why did that person choose to invade that home, and just how was it so easily done? The homeowner who does nothing is the culprit there. Typical American stick frame construction and having windows next to doors, handing out house keys to service providers left and right, showcasing possessions that can be profitably sold off or used by the thug(s), the list goes on and on. Somebody concentrated on using lethal force as their last and only defense when in fact the intruder should have never got in.

Most of that is non gun forum stuff, but I have had some pretty good laughs reading the improbable scenarios where the innocent homeowner somehow "wakes up to a knife at their throat." I will speculate it takes leaving the door unlocked, showing off their guns to a "friend of a friend" the previous week, and in many other ways inadvertently but actively assisting said intruder with how to get in easily and how profitable it would be.

Now we have someone treading around in a dark house - who decided to enter even tho all the cars are parked out front, no animals are barking, the doorlocks were melted butter, and they have an idea They Can Prevail Regardless. Yet the homeowner keeps his firearm empty, has to load it, and it's usually put away somewhere out of reach.

All to defend their turf when they could just as easily slip out the window and run for the back fence, calling 911 on they way. It may not be a state regulation, but leaving the home is a GOOD tactical idea when it's available as it does a lot of things gunfight instructors teach - it creates distance, it puts obstacles in their way, and you can live to fight another day.

Why stay and become part of the lethal situation when, if you leave, you disable it and prevent somebody getting killed. Where is it written that we absolutely must interpose our will and act? I will suggest it comes from people who think the average person would appear as a coward - because they think they would be. Sorry, nobody gets to decide that for you or me.

They don't have to live with the results of their cheerleading, won't have their name in the paper, won't have the cops walking thru their house for many hours, won't have their guns confiscated as evidence, won't have bloodstains on their carpet.

Just all fine and dandy for you, tho.

They sleep peacefully in their bed with no nightmares, reoccurring stress and prone to overreaction due to similar situations when something goes bump in the night again.

And we are talking the good shoots. Woe be to anyone if it was actually an innocent.

But, we blithely ignore that and any attempt to fortify the house and operate it with a sense of security so we can drag out lethal force and blaze away justified we are doing the right thing. I see it as planning a killing by negligence in securing your house and attracting an intruder.

How about you leave the shotgun where you keep it - loaded and ready - and do more about repelling the intruders instead of allowing them in? It's very similar to situations where refugees have been welcomed with open arms by some European governments only to suffer from terrorist acts.

Don't let them get in in the first place. As for it being your home, go out the back and dial 911. You don't really want to be in the middle of a gunfight with high penetration ammo from all sides making your bedroom swiss cheese. Worse yet you put your family as the backstop behind you - cause that's the direction an intruder is going to shoot.

Your first line of defense? Yeah, a "racking the shotgun" effort - alarm goes off, lights come on, dog barking, etc. Someone casing the house will see higher risk, and move on. It's what they do - look for the easy jobs because they won't get hurt. Let them go down the block and hit the guy with no alarm, lights, no dog, and who plans to wake up in time - just ask him - so he can leap out of bed and rack his shotgun.

Nope, by then your Home Defense is a fail. They are already in and nothing has been done to stop them. I'm going to ask, with that type of forward planning, do you have a forensics house cleaner picked out? Do they guarantee they can get blood out of your carpet?

Ask your wife if that's a contact number in her cell phone and see what kind of look you get.

Practice getting out the back window if possible. Egress is a better solution than holing up and hoping the cops come soon enough and don't shoot you themselves.
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Old 01-04-2017, 04:34 PM
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It may not be a state regulation, but leaving the home is a GOOD tactical idea when it's available as it does a lot of things gunfight instructors teach - it creates distance, it puts obstacles in their way, and you can live to fight another day.

.
Don't you mean "live to RUN another day?"

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Originally Posted by M1911info View Post
I don't believe anyone is a culprit in their own home, minding their own business. I do, however, agree a responsible person should plan ahead for the worst case scenarios, first to protect themselves (and perhaps their property). I have gone far beyond what is required by law to deter a would-be intruder. I don't look forward to ever having to defend myself or loved ones, but I have prepared to do so if required. I will not, however, attempt to flee my home in order to not fatally injure an aggressor in my own home.
I wholeheartedly agree one can prevent such circumstances most of the time by planning ahead and spending some money for common sense defenses.
Quickly fleeing out a window or door isn't an option for people with certain types of windows, or bedrooms on an upper level. Casement windows don't open quickly, nor are screens removed quickly.
The only thing I strongly disagree with in tirod's post is the statement one is a culprit defending themselves in their own home. Running is not an option that really fixes anything or deters crime. I'm not looking for a fight, but don't think I won't put up a fight in the case of home intrusion where there is an eminent danger and risk of bodily harm. I won't risk being shot in the back trying to escape.
You beat me to the punch. I was going to add a comment that says essentially what yours does. Kudos!!
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Old 01-04-2017, 05:32 PM
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I don't believe anyone is a culprit in their own home, minding their own business. I do, however, agree a responsible person should plan ahead for the worst case scenarios, first to protect themselves (and perhaps their property). I have gone far beyond what is required by law to deter a would-be intruder. I don't look forward to ever having to defend myself or loved ones, but I have prepared to do so if required. I will not, however, attempt to flee my home in order to not fatally injure an aggressor in my own home.
I wholeheartedly agree one can prevent such circumstances most of the time by planning ahead and spending some money for common sense defenses.
Quickly fleeing out a window or door isn't an option for people with certain types of windows, or bedrooms on an upper level. Casement windows don't open quickly, nor are screens removed quickly.
The only thing I strongly disagree with in tirod's post is the statement one is a culprit defending themselves in their own home. Running is not an option that really fixes anything or deters crime. I'm not looking for a fight, but don't think I won't put up a fight in the case of home intrusion where there is an eminent danger and risk of bodily harm. I won't risk being shot in the back trying to escape.
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Old 01-04-2017, 08:11 PM
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Illinois has both a "Castle" law and a "Stand Your Ground" law.

Many here seem to think they should give some kind of command to a Perp that has broken into your home to I guess either give up or be shot .. they're afraid they're going to shoot someone that is innocent if they don't .. but how can that be if they're in your home uninvited at an odd time of the night ..

many murders are accidental when a person is confronted and out of fear the burglar does something that kills the home owner !! They had no intention other then to rob a home but because they were found out violence was the end result !! That scenario happened to the neighbor of a friend .. she awoke to some one burglarizing her home while her husband was a work and that person killed her .. sadly we both knew the murderer as did the victim ..

I have a GSD and if a BG(s) breaks into my home she will let everyone know there is a stranger in the house .. if they were to harm her and continue into my home there would be no warning from me .. at night there are several night lights that are bright enough and in the right position to back light anyone approaching the bedrooms .. during the day I carry all day every day .. living here in the country there is never a time when I don't have a pistol on me ..

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Old 01-04-2017, 08:20 PM
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'The homeowner who does nothing is the culprit there.'

Rilly?

I have no duty, legally nor morally, to even lock my door.
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Old 01-04-2017, 08:44 PM
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That is not entirely accurate. You have no duty to retreat in your own residence in Minnesota. Obviously, you can't execute an intruder like that guy in Little Falls did either.


State v. Carothers (1999): No duty to retreat in home;
State v. Bard (2002): No duty to retreat in home is retroactive.
Minnesota Statute 609.056 also provides a separate rule for the use of deadly force when in our “place of abode.” Place of abode refers to your actual dwelling and does not include your land, detached garage, storage shed, etc. This section states that deadly force is allowable “when preventing the commission of a felony” in our home, however, case law has confirmed that the reasonable rule in 609.06 also applies here.

If he's headed out the door with your TV, probably should let him run. It's Minnesota nice. Not Castle law. Need a reasonable man reason to shoot.

Guy in Little Falls set a trap. Possibly miswired, definitely deserves jail time.
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Old 01-04-2017, 08:57 PM
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Don't you mean "live to RUN another day?"



You beat me to the punch. I was going to add a comment that says essentially what yours does. Kudos!!
People seem to assume that they will always win. The gun is not armor. If the BG is armed, your gun gives you an option. It's not a Johnson contest. The objective is to stay alive, you and yours. If getting out does that, get out. If you can not get out and have no other option, then you use the gun. Not all BGs are cowards, and some can shoot. Some have military training and some grew up in neighborhoods that would chew the rest of us up and spit us out. Some are on drugs and you could shoot your mag empty and they keep coming. But it's the internet. Doit your way.
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Old 01-05-2017, 12:14 AM
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No amount of drugs is gonna matter after they take a brenekee and one of my 12 pellet OO loads. Tough to carry the fight with no heart, lungs, or spine.

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Last edited by Sol-Invictus; 01-05-2017 at 12:15 AM.
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Old 01-05-2017, 07:04 AM
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Getting out alive is good, but stopping the perp from attacking anyone else is better.

The 2nd Amendment not only recognizes your right to have a gun, but your DUTY to have a gun. YOU are the well regulated militia.
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Old 01-05-2017, 10:50 PM
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Getting out alive is good, but stopping the perp from attacking anyone else is better.
I'm not a cop. It's not my job.

I'm not a judge. It's not my job.

I'm not a jury. It's not my job.

And I'm sure as hell not an executioner. It's not my job.

What I am is a private citizen who happens to own some guns. Great that I have them, I don't have to rely completely on the police if it comes down to it.

The question is not, "Can I shoot someone?" or "Is it legal to shoot this person?".

It's "Do I have to shoot?"
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Old 01-06-2017, 07:33 AM
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You are the militia.
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Old 01-06-2017, 09:19 AM
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[QUOTE=Wise_A;139402805]I'm not a cop. It's not my job.

I'm not a judge. It's not my job.

I'm not a jury. It's not my job.

And I'm sure as hell not an executioner. It's not my job.

What I am is a private citizen who happens to own some guns. Great that I have them, I don't have to rely completely on the police if it comes down to it.

The question is not, "Can I shoot someone?" or "Is it legal to shoot this person?".

It's "Do I have to shoot?"[/QUOTE]


Answer: You never HAVE to shoot!
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Old 01-06-2017, 09:15 PM
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You are the militia.
When it comes to preemptively removing someone from circulation, I sure ain't.

Ditto for where my responsibilities lie. My primary ethical responsibility is to my family first, then to myself. I don't have an equal responsibility to my neighbor.

Thus, shooting some guy and getting locked up, sued, or (worse) losing the gunfight, fails my primary ethical duty.

If you want to sit around and quote the 2A at me, you've come to the wrong place. I deal in realities, not ideology.

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Originally Posted by Protected One
Answer: You never HAVE to shoot!
Semantic argument. I could just sit around, holding my gun, while I get beat to death with a rock. But most people would agree that standing still while being bludgeoned to death does not count as a viable option.
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Old 01-06-2017, 10:09 PM
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It's all about you.
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Old 01-06-2017, 10:24 PM
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here's what I'd do;
Fort up in the bedroom.
holler I'm armed and will shoot anyone who enters
call 911 from cell.
Tell call taker where in house I am, that I'm armed, and the PO leece need to know that. Sit back, aim at the door, and if it opens before I see red and blue lights outside,
one quick flashlight blast to be sure it ain't a cop, or someone I know,
then drop the guy like a sack of fertilizer.
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