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Old 02-13-2017, 04:00 PM
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This is a question for y'all old timing cops? When y'all carried revolvers. How did y'all do it? And did y'all shot in DA, or SA?
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Old 02-13-2017, 04:40 PM
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Stepped outta my patrol car at an old ranch and the overhead red light beside my head exploded.

While I was runnin' and duckin' for cover I popped off a couple of rounds DA. When I got behind my car I got serious and flang some at the rascal in a barn 80 yards away single action.

I hit close enough he had wood splinters in his face and hair.

Since he had a rifle I got one too.

We chatted a bit, and he finally decided to throw the 30-30 out the door.

He didn't want kill me, he was just expressin' his dissatisfaction that was I there to get his driver's license.
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Old 02-13-2017, 05:07 PM
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Iggy,

Now that is a story I can identify with! Makes me smile that most folks in uniform these days don't know that a handgun can be used with any kind of accuracy at that range. In the days I suspect your incident took place, we didn't get issued a rifle, just a ree-volver and a shotgun. So I promptly applied for permission to carry a rifle in my howl car. Lotsa places where I patrolled, there was nothing in the way of a rifle close enough for the bullets to hit anything but the ground, eventually!

When they began to install protective screens between the front and rear seats, I promply mounted up a simple gun rack horizontally across that screen with a piece of plexiglass behind it so monkey fingers couldn't touch the thing. I never put anybody back there without their hands cuffed behind their back after sticking one cuff behind their belt before locking it up. Then with the seat belt installed snugly around them, they wouldn't likely have been able to mess with the rifle anyway, but I also found that you sure didn't want to take nuthin' for granted either!

I stopped a few cars for something a lot more serious than a speeding ticket way out in the middle of nowhere, and it sure seemed to me that exiting my howl car with that rifle in hand and covering the car and it's occupants while crouched between the door and car body down about spotlight level had a more sobering effect on the occupants of the stopped car than did my four inch barreled Model 19!

And in those days, if you were willing to talk a bit and provide proper motivation, you could wind up situations like you describe without bloodshed! Sure beat having to give or get last aid!!!! Good for you!!
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Old 02-13-2017, 05:26 PM
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When back up was 45 minutes away, you had to get a little inventive at times.

Now back to the original subject.
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Old 02-13-2017, 05:27 PM
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Keep them stories coming!!
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Old 02-13-2017, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
Stepped outta my patrol car at an old ranch and the overhead red light beside my head exploded.

While I was runnin' and duckin' for cover I popped off a couple of rounds DA. When I got behind my car I got serious and flang some at the rascal in a barn 80 yards away single action.

I hit close enough he had wood splinters in his face and hair.

Since he had a rifle I got one too.

We chatted a bit, and he finally decided to throw the 30-30 out the door.

He didn't want kill me, he was just expressin' his dissatisfaction that was I there to get his driver's license.

Was he aiming at the red light? If he was you had a very good day.
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Old 02-13-2017, 05:44 PM
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Yeah, he was aiming at the light..
This isn't a WHP car but the overhead lights are the same.

Still kinda rattles your cage when it shatters right beside your face.
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Old 02-14-2017, 03:29 AM
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I never put anybody back there without their hands cuffed behind their back after sticking one cuff behind their belt before locking it up.
You mean you used to lock up crooks that wore belts? Man, you are an old-timer!
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Old 02-14-2017, 07:02 AM
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Is it the 'cover' situation or the 'DA vs. SA' situation that is the subject of your question? I see no difference in a tactical shooting scenario in using cover while returning fire between the use of a semi-auto or a revolver. But, I sure do know that there is a difference in possible accuracy of one's return fire when it comes to the use of SA or DA in firing the handgun. I do take exception to my own general statement with regards to a trained and accomplished shooter that uses nothing but a DA triggered handgun. In the more general sense, I know that getting behind 'cover' and using the opportunity provided to make a more deliberate and controllable trigger press while using SA can result in the desired improved accuracy at greater distances in a real time of necessity for any sort of 'edge' possible. When elevated levels of Adrenalin pumping I have observed shooters whose muscle memory was trained to make quick not so well aimed shots while using DA come to a point of slowing down and going to the more accurate SA trigger while using all the basics necessary to obtain maximum accuracy... With more concentration and calmness they actually make longer and more difficult shots for the desired results. A wordy way of saying that a good guy that gets to cover by the use of several quick DA shots that prevents a bad guy from making accurate shots and then switches to SA for very accurate shots that would be improbable with DA. Again, it makes no difference if the handgun is a revolver or a semi-auto. When actually behind good cover is the time to reload no matter what one is carrying.

I for one have maintained the practice of changing the 'bobbed' hammer of any handgun carried for self defense to one with a thumb ear specifically so I can get that hammer/trigger set for a SA shot if the opportunity presents. It is not always possible to make that change, but it is sure a goal for me.

The actual difference in performance between "range practice" and actual shooting scenarios is vital to be considered. It is very hard to duplicate 'actual' to 'training', but it must be attempted.

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Old 02-14-2017, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Ghost Magnum View Post
This is a question for y'all old timing cops? When y'all carried revolvers. How did y'all do it? And did y'all shot in DA, or SA?
If I recall correctly, and remember, it's been about 25 years, we didn't start shooting from cover until about 15-20 yards out, and then it was single action. Make ready, cock the hammer, good sight alignment, lean out, bang, lean back, change position, do it again . . .
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Old 02-14-2017, 11:45 AM
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This has nothing to do with s/a or d/a but since car top red lights were mentioned here's my story. Went to high school with someone who became a LEO, she arrested or ticketed someone for something at one time, weeks later she was doing paperwork in the car a block or two from the guy's house. He saw her and wanted to scare her. He got out his .30-30 and took aim at the lights on top of the car but he didn't understand the trajectory of the .30-30 at that range. The bullet dropped and went through the driver's side window right into her head, killing her instantly. If I remember correctly the shooter hung himself in jail shortly afterward, racked with guilt because he was only trying to "scare" her. Sad story.
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Old 02-14-2017, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
Stepped outta my patrol car at an old ranch and the overhead red light beside my head exploded.

While I was runnin' and duckin' for cover I popped off a couple of rounds DA. When I got behind my car I got serious and flang some at the rascal in a barn 80 yards away single action.

I hit close enough he had wood splinters in his face and hair.

Since he had a rifle I got one too.

We chatted a bit, and he finally decided to throw the 30-30 out the door.

He didn't want kill me, he was just expressin' his dissatisfaction that was I there to get his driver's license.
Its the grace of the lord he didn't hit you.
Thanks for the stories everybody. Y'all pretty much answer my question.
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Old 02-14-2017, 12:05 PM
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Is it the 'cover' situation or the 'DA vs. SA' situation that is the subject of your question? I see no difference in a tactical shooting scenario in using cover while returning fire between the use of a semi-auto or a revolver. But, I sure do know that there is a difference in possible accuracy of one's return fire when it comes to the use of SA or DA in firing the handgun. I do take exception to my own general statement with regards to a trained and accomplished shooter that uses nothing but a DA triggered handgun. In the more general sense, I know that getting behind 'cover' and using the opportunity provided to make a more deliberate and controllable trigger press while using SA can result in the desired improved accuracy at greater distances in a real time of necessity for any sort of 'edge' possible. When elevated levels of Adrenalin pumping I have observed shooters whose muscle memory was trained to make quick not so well aimed shots while using DA come to a point of slowing down and going to the more accurate SA trigger while using all the basics necessary to obtain maximum accuracy... With more concentration and calmness they actually make longer and more difficult shots for the desired results. A wordy way of saying that a good guy that gets to cover by the use of several quick DA shots that prevents a bad guy from making accurate shots and then switches to SA for very accurate shots that would be improbable with DA. Again, it makes no difference if the handgun is a revolver or a semi-auto. When actually behind good cover is the time to reload no matter what one is carrying.

I for one have maintained the practice of changing the 'bobbed' hammer of any handgun carried for self defense to one with a thumb ear specifically so I can get that hammer/trigger set for a SA shot if the opportunity presents. It is not always possible to make that change, but it is sure a goal for me.

The actual difference in performance between "range practice" and actual shooting scenarios is vital to be considered. It is very hard to duplicate 'actual' to 'training', but it must be attempted.
the question was what is best way to shoot a revolver in cover. Double action or single action.
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Old 02-14-2017, 12:09 PM
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Yeah, he was aiming at the light..
This isn't a WHP car but the overhead lights are the same.

Still kinda rattles your cage when it shatters right beside your face.
No argument there. My only point was either you were very lucky or he was a very good shot. Or both. Just glad you were able to tell this story for us years later.
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Old 02-14-2017, 12:33 PM
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This is a question for y'all old timing cops? When y'all carried revolvers. How did y'all do it? And did y'all shot in DA, or SA?
4 "y'all's" Really??
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Old 02-14-2017, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
If I recall correctly, and remember, it's been about 25 years, we didn't start shooting from cover until about 15-20 yards out, and then it was single action. Make ready, cock the hammer, good sight alignment, lean out, bang, lean back, change position, do it again . . .
Muss, I believe you may have misspelled the word "recall". If you all is actually spelled 'y'all' shouldn't recall be spelled "r'call"
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Old 02-14-2017, 01:14 PM
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4 "y'all's" Really??
Y'all don't say y'all in Kansas City?
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Old 02-14-2017, 01:42 PM
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Iggy's experience with DA and SA shooting is exactly why my revolver must have a hammer. I toyed with a DA only revolver for a few days , but I can't abide them. They just ain't right ! Heck even on a semi-auto , I have to be able to cock that rascal when I want to.
I guess when your first guns are a SA Ruger Blackhawk and a WWII US Army Colt 45 , them old habits die hard. Y'all
Gary

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Old 02-14-2017, 02:20 PM
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Y'all don't say y'all in Kansas City?
No sir, and we don't say "fix'n" either.
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:49 PM
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the question was what is best way to shoot a revolver in cover. Double action or single action.
IMHO, there is no final answer "Best". It is always going to depend on circumstances. .......... Always be 'evaluating'. ...........
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:52 PM
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When? We were supposed to quit? There's a S&W Model 686-6 in a thumbbreak "cruiser" holster on my duty belt right now. I shoot qualification DA, and the whippersnappers with their Glock 22s haven't outshot me yet. I learned in the Army that concealment isn't necessarily cover, and that cars make piss poor cover. Two hands are better than one. Be able to shoot with either hand alone. Be able to shoot from the most awkward positions imaginable. Carry a BUG. Don't ever quit.

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Old 02-14-2017, 02:55 PM
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the question was what is best way to shoot a revolver in cover. Double action or single action.
The way you don't get hit.
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Old 02-14-2017, 03:04 PM
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Yeah, he was aiming at the light..
This isn't a WHP car but the overhead lights are the same.

Still kinda rattles your cage when it shatters right beside your face.

Am I the only one wondering why that guy is wearing a motorcycle helmet while driving a car?
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Old 02-14-2017, 03:30 PM
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During my 30 year LEO career I had to use my issued .38 and each time, double action. That's how we trained on the range out to the 25 yard line, but at 50 yards we shot single action. I'll send you a PM w/additional info.
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Old 02-14-2017, 04:44 PM
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Am I the only one wondering why that guy is wearing a motorcycle helmet while driving a car?
Have you SEEN the way they drive in Arizona?
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Old 02-14-2017, 05:03 PM
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Am I the only one wondering why that guy is wearing a motorcycle helmet while driving a car?
Was a time back in the 70's when bullet resistant vests first came out, that our heads would be a target. Some agencies pushed helmets for all field troops. Was short lived as I remember.

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Old 02-14-2017, 06:33 PM
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Went to LE basic in 1976. Never shot single action in training. 25 yards was from behind barricade. 6 shots each - Right\over the top\left using weak hand on left side if right handed. Reloading from cover behind barricade between each. We were timed - can't remember how long we had for the 18 rounds but it seems it was about a minute.

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Old 02-14-2017, 07:39 PM
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Went to LE basic in 1976. Never shot single action in training. 25 yards was from behind barricade. 6 shots each - Right\over the top\left using weak hand on left side if right handed. Reloading from cover behind barricade between each. We were timed - can't remember how long we had for the 18 rounds but it seems it was about a minute.


Sounds right. Weak hand DA at 25 was where the scores started to drop.
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Old 02-14-2017, 08:17 PM
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Lots of cops back in the 60s and 70s were trained on the Police Proficiency Course. DA at the 7 and 25 yard lines and SA at the 50 yard line.

When we were done, we'd shoot at the 100 yard line to see who bought the beer.
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Old 02-14-2017, 08:57 PM
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In beautiful downtown Los Angeles revolvers were neutered to fire only in single action. All personal guns carried on duty were required to also be neutered.
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Old 02-14-2017, 09:00 PM
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In beautiful downtown Los Angeles revolvers were neutered to fire only in single action. All personal guns carried on duty were required to also be neutered.
So you had to pull the hammer back for every shot? That's a first

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Old 02-14-2017, 09:00 PM
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In beautiful downtown Los Angeles revolvers were neutered to fire only in double action. All personal guns carried on duty were required to also be neutered.
Sorry about the confusion.

Last edited by gboling; 02-14-2017 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 02-14-2017, 09:17 PM
Triggernosis Triggernosis is offline
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Originally Posted by elm_creek_smith View Post
Have you SEEN the way they drive in Arizona?
Yep. I used to live in Tucson and it didn't take me long to figure out why auto insurance was so expensive out there.
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Old 02-14-2017, 09:44 PM
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Y'all don't say y'all in Kansas City?
They absolutely do not . . .
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Old 02-14-2017, 09:45 PM
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Up until the mid '80's we shot from cover at the 25 and 50 yard lines. The 18 rounds from the 50 were the only ones allowed SA.
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Old 02-14-2017, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VaTom View Post
Went to LE basic in 1976. Never shot single action in training. 25 yards was from behind barricade. 6 shots each - Right\over the top\left using weak hand on left side if right handed. Reloading from cover behind barricade between each. We were timed - can't remember how long we had for the 18 rounds but it seems it was about a minute.
Yep, the Virginia Modified Double Action course. Eighteen rounds in 90 seconds from the 25 yard line. Six rounds weak hand standing, six strong hand standing, six strong hand kneeling.
When bottom feeders started appearing in LE in the mid '80s, the time allotted was 75 seconds for this stage.
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Old 02-15-2017, 08:50 AM
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I started in law enforcement during the early 1970's. Revolvers were the required side arms (my employer specified S&W or Colt, .38 Spl or .357, 4" barrel, blued finish). Training and qualifications included shooting at 3, 7, 15, 25, and 50 yards. 25 and 50 yard stages included shooting from barricades (DA at 25 yards, SA strong-hand and weak-hand at 50 yards).

I found that I could take a 2-hand hold with thumbs extended, rest both thumbs on the barricade wall to steady the revolver, and shoot without interfering with cylinder rotation. Helped to keep my scores up.

By the late-1980's many agencies were transitioning to semi-auto pistols. Got to a point that you could hardly give away good revolvers because nobody seemed to want them. I passed up dozens of Model 19's priced at under $150, Model 10's (or 12's, or 64's, etc) could be had for a hundred bucks just about any day, even Colt Pythons were pretty cheap for a while.

Along about the same time we started training to keep the trigger finger outside the trigger guard until it was time to fire, which is not something widely done during the DA revolver era. Also started seeing holsters with covered trigger guards, which were actually pretty rare during the revolver era. Had to start training for stoppages (dummy cartridges mixed in to simulate failures), which wasn't something we gave much thought to with revolvers.

Lots of changes over the past few decades. I still practice shooting from the barricade.
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Old 02-15-2017, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoboGunLeather View Post

By the late-1980's many agencies were transitioning to semi-auto pistols. Got to a point that you could hardly give away good revolvers because nobody seemed to want them. I passed up dozens of Model 19's priced at under $150, Model 10's (or 12's, or 64's, etc) could be had for a hundred bucks just about any day, even Colt Pythons were pretty cheap for a while.

Along about the same time we started training to keep the trigger finger outside the trigger guard until it was time to fire, which is not something widely done during the DA revolver era.

Also started seeing holsters with covered trigger guards, which were actually pretty rare during the revolver era. Had to start training for stoppages (dummy cartridges mixed in to simulate failures), which wasn't something we gave much thought to with revolvers.

Lots of changes over the past few decades. .

If it didn't have 15 rounds up it's butt...... it was next to worthless. Smith brought out the 3" 66 about that time.... couldn't give them away.

IIRC the two I got in about 1988 had sat on a Distributors shelves for about a year.... and I got the new guns for about......$ 225 each,
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kframerbluvr View Post
Yep, the Virginia Modified Double Action course. Eighteen rounds in 90 seconds from the 25 yard line. Six rounds weak hand standing, six strong hand standing, six strong hand kneeling.
When bottom feeders started appearing in LE in the mid '80s, the time allotted was 75 seconds for this stage.
If I recall correctly the total course of qualification fire was 60 rounds so almost 1/3 of your shots were from the 25 yard line double action. Those were the toughest ones to master but made us better marksmen. No target sights here. Just the model 10 with 4 " barrel.
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:39 AM
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About the patrolman wearing the helmet . I worked in a gas station in the late 60's In Az and all the HP's fueled and had their cars serviced there . The HP's were required to wear helmets while driving . In case they were involved in an accident they had head protection . That was what I was told anyway .
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Old 02-15-2017, 05:09 PM
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Yep, in every case I was aware of where helmets were worn in the car were the result of instructions handed down from on high. In few cases that I am aware of, the practice didn't last too long! I wore mine a few times when the wind was blowing so hard that it was the only head cover I could keep on, and without it, the blowing sand would sandblast the paint off my head!!!
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:18 PM
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Curious, are there any good "Memoirs of a Rural Officer" books out there? I'm short of decent reading material after my last couple benders, and I rather enjoyed Bill Jordan's stories in No Second Place Winner.
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Old 02-15-2017, 07:14 PM
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I dislike voicing a different opinion, however, when I competed with a revolver, the winners circle was filled by fellows who shot DA. And we also held side matches at 75 - 100 yards. I can still DA at long range.
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Old 02-15-2017, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VaTom View Post
If I recall correctly the total course of qualification fire was 60 rounds so almost 1/3 of your shots were from the 25 yard line double action. Those were the toughest ones to master but made us better marksmen. No target sights here. Just the model 10 with 4 " barrel.
Yes. 60 rounds. 7 yard line was 24 rounds:
1 round in 2 seconds per draw x 6
2 rounds in 3 seconds x 3
12 rounds in 20 seconds

15 yard line was 18 rounds
1 round in 2 seconds x6
2 rounds in 3 seconds x3
6 rounds in ...I don't remember the allotted time...maybe 10 seconds?
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Old 02-15-2017, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
Curious, are there any good "Memoirs of a Rural Officer" books out there? I'm short of decent reading material after my last couple benders, and I rather enjoyed Bill Jordan's stories in No Second Place Winner.
Should be required reading for any revolver shooter. I'm interested in any similar books too. Ed Lovette's The Snubby Revolver was also a good read.

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Originally Posted by StrawHat View Post
I dislike voicing a different opinion, however, when I competed with a revolver, the winners circle was filled by fellows who shot DA. And we also held side matches at 75 - 100 yards. I can still DA at long range.
I do 95% of my shooting DA, it's not difficult if you have a good trigger and plenty of practice. I like to have SA capability on a belt gun and keep the centennials for backup/pocket carry.

Last edited by silversnake; 02-15-2017 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 02-15-2017, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
Curious, are there any good "Memoirs of a Rural Officer" books out there? I'm short of decent reading material after my last couple benders, and I rather enjoyed Bill Jordan's stories in No Second Place Winner.
Not sure if it's exactly in line with what you're interested in, but I read a really interesting book called Down Darkness Wide, by a Deputy US Marshal who served in pre-statehood Alaska. Basically, frontier law enforcement into the 1950s.
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Old 02-15-2017, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Kid44 View Post
4 "y'all's" Really??
Lol, I know, it was hastily written! I want to slap myself after reading that.
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Old 02-15-2017, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kframerbluvr View Post
Yes. 60 rounds. 7 yard line was 24 rounds:
1 round in 2 seconds per draw x 6
2 rounds in 3 seconds x 3
12 rounds in 20 seconds

15 yard line was 18 rounds
1 round in 2 seconds x6
2 rounds in 3 seconds x3
6 rounds in ...I don't remember the allotted time...maybe 10 seconds?
We also trained extensively from the 5 yard line in the draw/point/shoot. No aiming with sights. You watched where first shot hit target and adjust up or down by moving wrist for second shot. This helped develop skills for close quarters shooting which is frequently what LEOs encounter. I was very confident in my abilities with revolver by the time we finished training. Guess that's why I am still partial to revolvers and DA to this day.
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Old 02-15-2017, 11:52 PM
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Thanks.
I was also wondering what was up with the helmet. Y'all most had to be good marksmen. I also took a look at old FBI training videos from the 50s for DA revolvers. Allot has changed.
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Old 02-16-2017, 12:40 AM
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Iggy, this is a great story, and I really enjoyed it-you can sure tell'em right, but the one where the mounted cop in N.Y.C. made the cab driver pick you up is still my favorite. Thanks!
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