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Old 01-06-2017, 05:36 PM
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Default Federal carry law/national "chl" reciprocity/and drivers licenses

I could be wrong about this but since there are various threads about a national carry law I want to both ask a question and point out some information.

Question - what Federal law mandates state by state reciprocity in re drivers licenses?

Everyone thinks there is one. I disagree. There is no such mandate. Not that I am aware of. The Driver License Compact came into existence in 1960 and it allows the sharing of information in re offenses, etc., but it doesn't discuss reciprocity.

Again, I could be wrong, but I think I know the answer, to wit:

With respect to noncommercial licenses the several states recognize each others drivers licenses for driving privilege reciprocity due to various international agreements entered into by the Federal government. For instance, the 1949 World Convention on International Road Traffic and the 1943 Inter-American Convention on the Regulation of Inter-American Automotive Traffic. I have not read these treaties nor do I plan to but I am relatively certain that they are the basis of drivers license reciprocity, not some interstate compact.

If someone can evidence a national compact amongst the states I'd love to see it. I don't want to be right.

My point is that comparing a Federal/national right to carry a handgun permit to drivers licenses is apples and oranges. Driving is not a right, it is a privilege. Nothing in the Constitution describes driving as far as I am aware.

If the Feds get involved there really is a concern about a new bureau or agency supervising it, regulating it, etc. Be careful what you wish for.
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Old 01-06-2017, 05:43 PM
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Several threads about this subject and members want you to call/write your congress representatives ..

This is just the first draft of the bill and it may well look completely different when everyone gets their amendments added .. and I am sure there will be many that try .. so I'll wait to see what the finished bill after it gets through both house and senate to say whether I support the legislation !!
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Old 01-06-2017, 06:12 PM
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There are some federal laws governing commercial truck license (CDL's)

Also I believe some specialized equipment that at times is driven over roads such as crane drivers/operators .. maybe someone else knows more about these ..
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Old 01-06-2017, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
Be careful what you wish for.
Wise words indeed.

I personally view carry permits as a states' rights issue and tend to want it to stay that way. I do NOT want the Federal Government involved. There will be some level of commonality between states as a requirement, possibly a lowest common denominator requirement. There will probably be tracking at a Federal level. There will probably be some new Federal agency created, if this comes to pass. Are you sure you want this?
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Old 01-06-2017, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CATI1835 View Post
Wise words indeed.

I personally view carry permits as a states' rights issue and tend to want it to stay that way. I do NOT want the Federal Government involved. There will be some level of commonality between states as a requirement, possibly a lowest common denominator requirement. There will probably be tracking at a Federal level. There will probably be some new Federal agency created, if this comes to pass. Are you sure you want this?
You might if you live in New York...
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Old 01-06-2017, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
You might if you live in New York...
Been there done that and OH YEAH!!! This would be a dream concept for New Yorkers if the Feds told NY, or Chicago, or California, any, each, all of them, "so sorry, but you have to acknowledge EVERY concealed carry permit from every state".

I understand - for those folks this would be a boon, no matter what.

It has many issues for those of us in the free states but I totally understand!
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Old 01-06-2017, 07:17 PM
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And does anyone really believe Chuck Schumer and his California cronies won't demand and filibuster for "poison pill" amendments that impose impossible standards on the rest of the states? Anybody else here old enough to remember the last minute "poison pill" in the 1986 FOPA that ended new registrations of Class III firearms? The chances of this draft bill passing as written are zero and none.
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Old 01-07-2017, 09:05 PM
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I believe that the recognition of state documents such as driver's licenses and marriage licenses would be covered by the "full faith and credit clause" of Article IV of the Constitution.
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Old 01-09-2017, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrrifleman View Post
I believe that the recognition of state documents such as driver's licenses and marriage licenses would be covered by the "full faith and credit clause" of Article IV of the Constitution.
That would not be correct. I do hope what follows is not considered unduly political by the moderators because I do not intend it that way: I am writing this solely as a legal rebuttal to the "FF&C" remark above to ensure there issue is not confused.

Drivers licenses are governed by a pact, as discussed elsewhere above. They are NOT recognized state by state through FF&C.

Marriage licenses are only valid in the state that issued them. Marriages are generally recognized state to state "just because" - in other words, if you obtained a license to marry in Texas and then you move to New Jersey (why you would do that is outside the scope of this discussion) then that marriage will be recognized in the new domicile state.

Why?

First, marriage licenses have a history that is not relevant here but they are required solely for the state to know that two people of legal age, unhindered by an earlier marriage or other problem, are going to be married. A ceremony of marriage is still generally required - the license is state permission but doesn't render the marriage operable because marriage is a legal contract. It is actually the contract that is being recognized in the new domicile state, not the permission via license from the former jurisdiction.

The license proves the marriage contract will be legal. The ceremony binds the parties. Why do you think you have to include words of assent?

Second, states do not have the time, energy, inclination, or resources to look into the validity of marriages from other jurisdictions. If you tell them that you are legally married then you are legally married. If someone wants to object then the authorities and a court of competent jurisdiction can become involved. Otherwise, nobody makes an issue out of it, including the Federal government and the IRS.

Think about it - if you know anything about divorce you know a Nevada married couple can file for divorce in Oregon. All they do is in the petition they identify the original state and date of the marriage. The divorce court doesn't make an issue out of it - it's just a question of terminating a contract made in another state.

But then, third case, this also explains the current political debate over marriages between people of the same gender. If North Carolina refuses to recognize a homosexual couple's marriage in California (I am just naming states randomly; I have no idea of what their current statutes are*) then they are not married when they move to that jurisdiction until the issue gets adjudicated.

*How WAS THAT RESOLVED in the Supreme Court, regardless of state statutes? Whether you agree or disagree that is NOT the point. Bring this to the Lounge and see if the moderators want to allow the discussion there. This is TRULY not written to argue this point but to ensure that the legal question of Full Faith and Credit is not misconstrued when it comes to CHL reciprocity. FF&C does not apply or we would never have to have this discussion. The Justices used Due Process and Equal Protection arguments (think 14th Amendment) to rule that same sex marriages are lawful and must be recognized.

I apologize if the moderators pull this and give me a demerit. It is intended strictly as a discussion about the law and how and why various licenses are not recognized or are indeed recognized state by state. The ultimate Second Amendment legal and political issue is if same sex marriages are recognized nationally by the Supreme Court using the due process and equal protection clauses of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution then why isn't the same standard applicable to concealed handgun licenses?

With apologies in advance if this violates the Forum rules but, actually, if it doesn't, I hope folks will take the time to use this thought process to ask that last question of their own politicians.
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Old 01-09-2017, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
If the Feds get involved there really is a concern about a new bureau or agency supervising it, regulating it, etc.
Pure speculation and fear-mongering, just like in the other thread...the operative word being "if". If this, if that, what if, just suppose, might could, and on and on and on. Imagining something that might happen if the bill became law...a bill that hasn't even made it out of committee yet.

Tell us why there might be a need for "a new bureau or agency supervising it, regulating it, etc." What's your rationale for that?
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Old 01-09-2017, 06:19 PM
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Language of the Law must include All "Non Resident Carry Permits too" eg: a person living in New Jersey a "may issue State that does not issue to residents" , and such person has a CCW from Fla. and Arizona ! New Jersey Demorat politicians will make things hard as they can for the citizens of New Jersey . Any Fed passed Laws mus include N/R. permits as we have all went thru all the Backgound checks and qualified !
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Old 01-09-2017, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchdog View Post
Pure speculation and fear-mongering, just like in the other thread...the operative word being "if". If this, if that, what if, just suppose, might could, and on and on and on. Imagining something that might happen if the bill became law...a bill that hasn't even made it out of committee yet.

Tell us why there might be a need for "a new bureau or agency supervising it, regulating it, etc." What's your rationale for that?
My rational .. Everything the FEDS have their hands in they end up screwing up ...
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Old 01-19-2017, 06:58 PM
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I would think that if you ultimately have national reciprocity, then non-resident permits would no longer be offered. This would make it difficult for some people (California, NY, New Jersey). I may be wrong, but I don't think we have non-resident driver's licenses.

But we do have non-resident hunting and fishing licenses. My guess is that as a taxpayer of a certain state, you are already paying to use the resources of that state, but they must charge more for out of state visitors that wish to use the resources for hunting/fishing.

It will be interesting to see how this bill progresses through the system.
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Old 01-19-2017, 07:20 PM
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The SCOTUS started splitting hairs (IMHO) on the FF&C clause in the 19th century, and as it stands now and has for some time, SCOTUS distinguishes between statutes and judgements. FF&C does not require one state to substitute for its own law, binding on persons or actions within the state, a conflicting law of another state, but does require a state to recognize a legal judgement from another state, such as a divorce, as binding.
I agree with other posters that reciprocity sounds good, but I'm wary of another Federal bureaucracy or more Federal regulatory powers that could infringe on hard won laws on concealed carry rights in individual states.
I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.

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Old 01-22-2017, 04:32 PM
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Wouldn't the first sentence of section 2 Article IV cover reciprocity?

"The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States."
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Old 01-24-2017, 02:22 PM
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It took some years for the driver licensing agencies of all the states to come up with agreements about they'd allow licensed visitors from other states to drive on their resident licenses.

The Driver License Agreement eventually grew out of the efforts of the Driver License Compact and the Non-Resident Violator Compact. Trying to get all (or just many/most) of the states to sign onto these things was an uphill effort that took some years.

It was the work of the heads of the licensing depts/agencies of the states that got the work done, not the feds coming in and laying down the law.

Do some online research about the history and agreements that were eventually reached. Many folks might be surprised at the way the DLA works, and how it may affect them back at home if they run afoul of the rules of the road while visiting another state.

The agreement reached among the states is kind of like how the issue of CCW license reciprocity is currently done (or not) among any states that wish to enter into agreements with other states at the moment.

There just isn't some all-encompassing CCW reciprocity "agreement" that has been reached by all of the states, working together as a group of state agencies.

Obviously, if left to the desires of all the states, reaching the same sort of wide spread agreement on CCW licensing is still more of a remote possibility somewhere out there on the horizon. Look how often different states change their minds from one day to the next about how they accept, or not, licenses from other states.

Anybody think that something is just going to make all of the states suddenly want to reach an "agreement" accepted by all?

Anybody want to see the states told by the fed's what's going to start happening? If a federal law occurs, it's going to have to be regulated, you know. That's going to require federal oversight and regulatory control.

If we couldn't get it done with driver licenses, what makes you think it's going to be simple for CCW licensing?
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Old 01-24-2017, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
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Wouldn't the first sentence of section 2 Article IV cover reciprocity?

"The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States."
No. It doesn't apply. I wrote a long post on that about two weeks ago. I'll try to find it and repost it here.

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Old 01-24-2017, 05:00 PM
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Note: to get a DL, you take classes, written test and behind the wheel. You can buy a car and drive it on your property without a license. Take it public and you need a license that can be revoked for a lot of reasons. To go public, the car needs a license and insurance, some states require inspections.
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Old 01-24-2017, 06:04 PM
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My nationwide carry permit, under LEOSA, is due to a federal law. That isn't all bad, however. It outlines the rights of active and retired peace officers to carry. There are restrictions. I seldom travel, so it is academic to me, but I continue to qualify yearly in case I should ever need it. My wish would be that someday we would have constitutional carry nationwide for every law abiding citizen, with minimal restrictions.
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Old 01-24-2017, 06:08 PM
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As far as national concealed carry law, if the federal government can give it, the federal government can take it away
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Old 01-24-2017, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
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As far as national concealed carry law, if the federal government can give it, the federal government can take it away
That's what scares me.
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Old 01-24-2017, 06:31 PM
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Here it is:

The Driver License Agreement

And this is the state member organization that created it:

American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators

It is an agreement among the states, not a federal mandate.
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