Not having seen too many self defense shots needing to be made at 100 yards. Not sure I would even know what I was shooting at that distance. I carry a Ruger SP101 .357mag, 2 1/4 in barrel. Not too heavy, easily concealable and accurate at what I would consider self defense distances. If I can't get at least one round out of 5 in the stop zone I really need more range time. Is it my favorite handgun, no, I truly enjoy shooting the 1911s but rarely carry them, so far, so good.

Recently in my quiet little town we have had two officers murdered, and several armed robberies as well as a young man murdered during an argument. This has really caused me to reevaluate my carry. While my knee jerk reaction was to really load up I have since calmed. Each of these incidents are the same type (minus the two officers being shot) that I have always know could be a threat. While the incidents are more frequent the players have remained the same. One to two guys all within close proximity.

I have felt no need to change; snub K is fine for me.

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K & N S&W revolvers

I do a lot of traveling to various large cities and had similar concerns. My in-car weapon of choice is currently a S&W 642. It's immediately accessible in an open fanny pack on my lap.

Inside the confines of the car, I had concerns about the reliability of a semi-auto due to the slide not having room to freely reciprocate(making contact with your own body, the attackers or the steering wheel), the slide being pushed out of battery as well as malfunctions due to an ineffective one hand grip. A few in-car force-on-force scenario drills confirmed these concerns in my mind. These are simply not issues with an enclosed hammer revolver. The hammerless snub also offers the greatest weapon retention(especially if outfitted with larger grips) and will usually function reliably during an attempted disarm.

With that being said, even though likely enough for my purposes, 5 rounds isn't much and a Glock is usually close by although the primary use for it is bedside while in hotels.

It truly doesn't take much to foul the slide of an auto...

I used to EDC a J-frame. Now it's a .45 Shield.

Granted, this was on a range and targets don't shoot back, but if this is what I'm capable of with that little Shield, I think my muscle memory is trained enough to repeat the same results. (This was a full magazine fired as fast as I could get a flash sight picture, so it was at a fairly rapid cadence.)



My personal view is: If I can't solve a "problem" with 6+1 rounds of .45 ACP, I'm in the wrong place to begin with and beyond caring.

I'll never fault anyone for carrying what they feel best serves their personally assessed threat level, however.

This has proven to be an extremely thought provoking thread. One of the benefits is that we are pooling a variety of strategies formed from varying perspectives. I believe that what we all have to take away from this exchange is that both life and what we bring from this discussion will be a compromise.

On 21 May 2007 when I became disabled, and I eventually woke up, my priorities changed. Being disabled, I feel that I have a flashing neon sign over me identifying me as a willing victim, and for that reason, I felt like I would have to prepare to encounter the typical mugger. Since the events in Ferguson and Baltimore, the potential threat has expanded to include inadvertently encountering a flash mob engaged in expression of civil unrest. Fortunately, most of the domestic threats have involved one or two perpetrators, unlike Europe's encounters of multiple threats.

I have two priorities, but both evolve around my children. If I am on the road, my job at the end of the day is to make it home to my children; however, if my children are with me, my priority is to ensure my children's safety, at all costs. Whatever we encounter will be the product of faith.

Fate can be a merciless mistress. We won't know what we will encounter until it jumps out at us. Even though my preference is high power rifle competitions, I have shot handguns competitively. My handgun experience involves NRA 2700 3 gun bullseye, IHMSA 200m metallic silhouette, and PPC matches. As I see it, my greatest nightmare is to either neutralize an active distant threat or provide suppression fire so my children can scurry to safety.

Since I can not choose the time, place, or nature of an armed confrontation, I have to accept a compromise that could address any unexpected scenario. Fortunately, I have shot handguns at both close and distant targets, but I do prefer the closer targets. I have hit full sized police targets out to 100 yards with a 1911, as I have hit rams with a (long barreled revolver) at 200 meters. The one lesson that I have taken from that experience is that I need an exposed hammer on my revolver.

The bottom line here, is that virtually any armed encounter that confronts us will most likely not be one that we train for. If we train only for CQB engagements, it won't be CQB. Our training has to be varied, or we will find ourselves up the proverbial creek.

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Judge control not gun control!

Because of the growing number of "aloha snackbar" events, last year I switched from a Smith 36 "no-dash" loaded with the Federal 158gr. "FBI" load to first a Glock 19 with Winchester White Box 147gr. JHPs, then to a Citadal 3.5 CS 3 1/2" M1911 loaded with Speer 200gr. Gold Dot or Hornady 200gr. XTP JHPs.

While the willful importation of homicidal lunatics seems to be at an end, there are still plenty of them here already.

While I consider five rounds of 158 grain LSWCHP .38 Special more than adequate for somebody who wants my car and or money, I have my doubts when it comes to psychopaths who WANT to die while taking me with them.

The .45acp was partly developed to deal with Moro fanatics. The threat hasn't changed all that much since 1911.

• I'm not a cop.
• I don't want to be a cop.
• I don't want people to think I'm a cop.

That having been said, if I find myself in close proximity to somebody yelling "Allahu akhbar" and shooting innocent people, I'm going to do my level best to fill him full of 200gr. JHPs.

I honestly would rather shoot myself out of shame and disgust, rather than stand around and watch innocent people get slaughtered.

I might get killed in the process, but somebody else might get away and live.

I'm gonna apologize in advance for my ignorance of what may be the popular zeitgeist, but what exactly does that mean?

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

It's mocking slang for "Allahu akhbar", the favorite motto of a lot of people who like to run over, knife or shoot innocent people.

Personally, I'm kind of fond of "Allahu Akhbar and Jeff"

I am apparently woefully out of touch . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Don't worry, it's just "workplace violence"...

If there are cars in the parking lot, I'm going to cover and THEN return fire. If the only cover is a curb or planter, I'll go prone and return fire. No cover at all? I'll shoot on the move to get to cover, any cover. And, yes, I practice shooting on the move at least once a month, weather permitting.

Odds are funny things. The odds of a USAF pilot needing his/her parachute are very small, but don't expect one to leave it behind.

There are wide hallways in my building that are more than 25 yards long. There is an atrium where the elevator lobbies are located that is 12 stories high and more than 25 yards from end to end. If something happens and I'm not near the two locations where our AR carbines are stored, it''s going to be me against whatever threat there is. That's why I practice at long ranges with my handguns.


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CPT, Armor (Ret)
Luke 22:36

If there's a guy with a rifle, and I'm in a parking lot with my CCW and some cover, I'm gonna GTFO if at all possible.

I'm a damn good shot most days, but that's a **** fight no matter how you cut it.

Among other things, they taught me in the Army:

1. Nobody can outrun a bullet.
2. The proper response to a near vehicular ambush is to drive over and through it, bringing to bear all available firepower with a maximum of force and violence, as soon as possible.

I like Speer's projectiles. That doesn't mean that I can't use Ford's as well.

Among things that are different:

(1) He's not necessarily shooting at me.

(2) This is not a vehicular ambush. This is a massacre in a parking lot. Two different things. My "all available firepower" is a single handgun magazine at a time. Even the smallest group of soldiers would be--what? Four guys with rifles, 30-round magazines each? Grenades, that sort of thing? In other words, parity in terms of equipment, which I wouldn't have in dealing with the armed-nutcase scenario.

One thing is not like the other. You can't even compare them in terms of ethics or duties.

I've have been reading the posts which contain a lot of good information. One thing appears to be overlooked, which I am certain must be assumed. That is as much practice with your selected firearm as possible. May I suggest laser ammo when you dry fire? No one has actually mentioned dry firing but for clarification it is very important. I have a LaserMax sight installed which I only use occasionally when dry firing with a Laser Ammo cartridge. Using the Laser Max together with the laser ammo shows where the bullet would actually hit on a target, generally within a 1/2 inch of the Laser Sight image. I don't use the LaserMax during regular practice or qualification, as I do not want to be dependent upon it. Although I certainly would use the LaserMax if needed at night.

Generally, at night when the weather permits I set up multiple targets in the backyard. Other times during the night or day time using the laser cartridge inside my home on a variety of selected targets, figurines, pictures on a wall, etc.. Granted you aren't hearing the big bang or getting the recoil but practice is practice, drawing, firing, snap shooting. It certainly paid off last week during my re-qualification. It certainly helps 'muscle memory' and increased familiarity with your firearm.

Which gives you the opportunity to shoot him in the back.

If I'm in or in close proximity to a vehicle... ANYBODY'S vehicle that can be driven, it becomes a "close vehicular ambush".

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you've never been in the military. ONE person in a vehicle is boringly common.

No manned vehicle the U.S. Army has ever employed could travel 2,300 feet per second.

They're shockingly like each other.

But if you're content to run away and let others be slaughtered, that's you're right. The police have no legal duty to protect individuals and neither do you.

Your ethics are purely your own.

I'm a veteran LEO with over 20 years on the books. I love my 1911's but will either carry my Glock 19 or my newly acquired S&W 1076 in 10mm. The Glock carries a lot of ammo and in the form of the Glock 19 is really about the perfect carry gun in my opinion. The 1076 has a LOT of fire power and is a dream to shoot. The 1076 will go on trips out of state in case I have to go through a 10 round limit state. I do live in Missouri and have relatives close to Illinois, so I do go through Illinois a lot. It has a 10 round limit. Even though I don't agree with the law, I'm not going to break the 10 round limit, it's their law so I obey it too.

Being a big boy scout.....I would suggest it may not happen to you, but it may happen to someone around you as you put it the odds are not great of it happening to you.....so....if you're in a large crowd.....your odds just went way up...because what if it's there time????

Anyway being prepared is always better than being caught with your pants down.

As an LEO I wish I knew when IT is going to happen too.

Suppose you miss? Suppose your cartridge is not effective? Suppose he's wearing body armor? Suppose you experience a malfunction? Do you have cover or concealment? Do you have an escape route if you fail? Are you currently cut off from escape?

They're all odds that would have to be carefully weighed. Suffice to say, there are shots that I would take, and there are shots I would not. If I'm anywhere in his forward 180, I'd prefer to not engage. From the rear, easy access to an instant escape, decent cover, reasonably sure he doesn't have any of his a-hole buddies around to shoot me--yeah, I think I would.

You gonna hotwire it?

I'm referring to the "overwhelming firepower" part. Obviously.

But while we're on it, it seems their advice was more or less that you shouldn't hang around in ambush zone, right? Not that you should take a fight you didn't think you could win.

That's where I'm at. I don't think that handgun-vs-rifle is an especially advantageous position to be in. And I can't see the Army ever telling you to fight riflemen with a handgun. So instead of hanging around, I'm gonna boogie if I can.

I am, and I don't.

My biggest worry wouldn't even be getting shot and killed, since nobody's dependent on me. I'd be more worried about being crippled and becoming a burden on my family for the remainder of my life. Eventually, all the fanfare will fade, and then who's stuck flipping the quadriplegic over so he doesn't get bedsores?

I knew a guy who was a full 'quad. Got pretty decent at using a computer with some eye-tracking equipment and a little straw for clicking (blow on it for click, suck on it for right-click), enough to play some games. Sometimes, he was an alright guy to hang around and goof off with. But he'd also talk about how he wished he'd died, not because he was so miserable himself, but because of the burden he was on his wife and parents.

Not that he was suicidal, mind you. In his own words, laughing, "How the hell would I even do it?". Which would be funny if it wasn't such a dark thought.

So yeah. I'm quite happy to run away from a fight to avoid that living hell. I'll run away from a lot of fights. That's me--I deal in realities.

I have already been in that situation. In 1984 I went into a gas station while it was being robbed, by one individual. His back was turned, so he did not see me. I walked back to my car, and since I did not have my revolver, asked my wife to use hers. She had a five shot Bodyguard J frame. I walked back into the store, and told the guy to drop it. He did not, and I shot him once in the arm. The police were there in about three minutes. They could not believe that I had done that in that situation. After getting my information, they thanked me, and I went on my way.it was a surreal situation looking back on it. It made the news, and I received a cash reward, from BP oil. About six months later, I had to go to court to testify against the individual. There were people there from the confidence store, BP, Due to overcrowding at the Jail, the guy only received one year. No one could believe it. To summarize A Five shot J frame will work, and you never know when you will walk into a situation. I could have driven away, but I chose to go back in, so you cannot predict also what your reaction will be. The only down side was that I had to provide my Social Security number to BP, and claim the reward as earned income on my taxes for that year. Totally surreal, as I have stated. Another point was that I only had five rounds, and no reloads.

Just about anything CAN work... if you have the will to use it.

NOTHING will work if you don't.

You seem unable to address a widely reported event with a large body count attached. Are you denying that it happened?


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If someone comes at me with an AK-47 in a mall, or tries to run me over out of the blue with a stolen 5 ton dump truck, I'm not sure the difference between a Glock 10mm loaded with Underwood and a 640 loaded with .357 Gold Dots is going to make a difference. Based on risk/reward I feel sufficiently rewarded with the J & K frames or Glock 26 I currently carry relative to the risks I stand a likelihood of encountering and realistically discouraging.

So, it's a little hard to keep up with all the multi-quotes, but I'm trying to figure out who's winning . . . Shooting people in the back or running them over with a car . . . ?

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

This for me as well ^^^^

I need just enough ammo to cover myself until i can
get to safety.....or more guns and ammo.
I feel absolutely safe with a revolver.


Chuck

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They hold no Quarter

Do whichever one gets you home alive.


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I've found that leaving at the first sign of gunplay seems to be the best choice . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Once again, it's a question of whether you feel an obligation to try to stop innocent people from getting slaughtered.

If you don't then running away is clearly the best choice.

I feel absolutely safe with my pocket knife. I live in a county that maybe has 1 murder every 20 years and 1 armed robbery every 5 or 10 years. Nobody has a reason to murder me and I don't work in a store. I also don't visit large cities and I avoid crowds because I just don't like people that much. Not much to be training for around here. Maybe someday but until then I'll stay antisocial.

I don't. I am responsible for me and mine. You are on your own, unless saving you is my path to safety. Unlike some, I'm not Jonesin' for a chance to be a hero in a gunfight . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Your choice. At least you're honest about it.

I'm not Jonesin' for a chance to trample somebody's toddler to save myself.

You will not wear anything else if you have him make you a belt. I mean another belt.

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Even though it is very unlikely to need to make a shot out side of 15 to 20 feet I do still practice at lengths much longer ..

I practice out to 100 feet on the outdoor range .. usually 1 mag at least .. I will lean against a pole or the side of my Jeep to steady myself as I would behind cover .. I might not hit the center of the bulls eye of the target but I'm on target 7 or 8 out of 10 shots or better .. always takes me 1 or 2 to get the distance right .. but I could easily hit my target or keep someone penned down if needed at that distance and further ..

little town down along the river about 1200 people .. no murders in town for over 50 years .. someone robbed the local gas station killing the attendant ..

Just because it hasn't happened in a number of years doesn't mean it won't happen tomorrow !!

I used to live in Berea, Ohio in the '80 and '90s. There hadn't been a murder there in something like twenty years. Then a kid robbed a Little Caesar's pizza place and murdered the cashier.

I currently live in Rocky River, Ohio. There's little to no violent crime here. I can't tell you when there'd been a murder here... until a year or two after I moved here and some lackwit robbed a local sports card store. He decided he'd shoot it out with the cops. He lost.

There are no "safe spaces". The "safest" place on earth can get very dangerous in an instant. It only takes one person who wants that to happen.

I wonder how many shootings they've had in the Ft. Hood PAC center before Nidal Hassan, and after.

I'm glad you clarified that.

That can pertain to many things. I recall several years ago in the town I grew up in, a lady got struck by lightning because she was on her phone and the lightning came through the phone line. It's hard to prepare for that. Just because someone gets run over by a truck while crossing the street doesn't mean I'm going to train myself to cross the street faster just in case. There are many ways even less of a possibility of happening that a person can't really train for. There is even a higher chance of slipping on the ice and smacking my head on the sidewalk than there is of ever confronting a bad guy with a gun. Just sayin... If I ever get a job at a gas station I'll start carrying.

My mother lives in the next town over from Tinley Park, Illinois.

I've been in Tinley Park quite a bit. I never felt in danger there.

I'm sure neither did the six women who got shot (five of them fatally) in a Lane Bryant clothing store there.

They didn't work in a gas station. Five out of six of them are dead.

There are no "safe spaces".

Just a point of parliamentary procedure, but that's not a murder . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I've got an idea that the very same people that will never leave home without their EDC along with their BUG are the same people that don't carry an emergency survival kit while traveling during bad winter weather. Guess what's more dangerous.

Sig P229C .357sig with extra mags

True. I should have said homicide.

Define "traveling".

On those rare instances when I drive to Chiraq during the winter I have a sleeping bag with me.

I know the difference between "dangerous" and "fatal".

Even driving 10 miles can be considered traveling in MN during the winter. Being in a dangerous situation can prove to be fatal.

". . . justifiable homicide . . . "

#WordsHaveMeaning

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Kinda makes a guy wondering how will he ever get out of here alive

This discussion got well out of hand. Posts were deleted and members dinged.

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"I also cook."