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  #51  
Old 01-10-2017, 04:28 PM
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I usually practice with my Shield three times a month or more if have a weekday off. When able to afford extra ammo I'll take my 5906 along , It'll go through 200+ rounds quick
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Old 01-10-2017, 04:45 PM
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I try to shoot 10 to 30 rounds a day through my carry PPK 22, even at -30f, always something to learn. Various ranges from 6 yards to over 200. Point and shot then aimed shots, something different when the opportunity presents itself. After 10 years my pistol and I kind of know each other, have learned a lot.

I find it essential to use a holster that fully protects the pistol from sand and grit, + not eat your hide while carrying it.
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  #53  
Old 01-10-2017, 05:18 PM
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Enough so I can hit what I am aiming my .45 at.
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Old 01-10-2017, 06:40 PM
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For me it is in phases. Honestly my shooting skills will not get any better. I can pick up my bow once a year and put every thing in the 10 out to fifty yards or grab my recurve and get a kill shot 100% of the time out to 20 yards. Same with any on my firearms, rifle, muzzle loader, shotgun, revolver or pistol. Once learned over many decades the shooting/aiming part is ingrained in your neural memory. Not much real need for practice. The non shooting parts are what matter the most, reloads, draws, decision making etc. Most of those can be accomplished in the comfort of your home. I spend the time everyday making sure what I am carrying that day works with my wardrobe and the weather. That is the nitty gritty folks. I do however all ways try to finish every range trip with whatever I am carrying that day. Whether that is 1x every six months or 3xs a week.

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  #55  
Old 01-11-2017, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protected One View Post
How do you make it stressful?
I used a timer. I do like the idea of adding some physical effort before live fire. This will add stress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim lock View Post
Do you feel there are alot of people who are not...
Yes, but remember, the right to carry is not based on ability or knowledge.

Quote:
Let's see...

40-50 hr week job. Two hour commute each day. Two kids with activities (BSA, baseball, gymnastics, etc). Family functions on weekends (sking, camping, house projects) = NOT MUCH!
I hear this a LOT, but it doesn't mean we can't train at all. Every day, when we take our gun off, we can unload and do a few presentations or dry presses to work on trigger control. It only takes a few minutes. Just 5 minutes three times a week would make all of us much better.

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Edit .. One item that is not trained enough and I am at fault with this also is we don't train enough doing reloads and practicing clearing a jammed slide ....
Not enough? How 'bout not at all. The vast majority of those I meet have never been taught how to do malfunction clearances. The only time they've ever reloaded was at the range. Here is a little drill I do for emergency reloads. Load two magazines; one with one round and one with two. Insert the one round mag. Set a PAR time of 5 seconds. On the first beep, fire one shot on target, recognize the gun is empty by the slide being locked back, load the two round mag, fire two shots. Do all that before the second beep. It's not hard and most can do it once they've tried it a couple of times.
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  #56  
Old 01-11-2017, 12:26 AM
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I forgot to say that I practice a lot. Because I can't get to the range as often as I'd like, I do a lot of dry practice. At least 50:1; 50 dry presses for every 1 live round. I do this at least three times a week.

I should do more.
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Old 01-11-2017, 02:59 AM
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On clearing malfunctions: assuming you go to the range with somebody have him/her load a couple of dummy rounds into your magazine every so often.
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  #58  
Old 01-11-2017, 04:56 AM
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It's easier if you reload.

A handful of unprimed "dummies", and another handful of non-cycling downloaded cartridges, mixed into a small jar containing two boxes of standard fodder, and you're good to go.
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  #59  
Old 01-11-2017, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Arik View Post
At 5 yards he COULD NOT hit paper. Had that been a real self defense situation he would have killed someone innocent. Would you have been OK with that if it was one of your relatives walking by? Certain things require practice.
I'm not afraid of your dad. I'm not afraid of bad guys, or shadows, or being in a gunfight with paper punchers!

I know people that shoot wonderfully at the range, but when the chips were down they failed miserably.

Who knows how many times I was almost shot by someone that supposedly knew better.

Shooting holes in paper, and gunfighting, (or even hunting,) are completely different things.
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Old 01-11-2017, 08:43 AM
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I'm not afraid of your dad. I'm not afraid of bad guys, or shadows, or being in a gunfight with paper punchers!

I know people that shoot wonderfully at the range, but when the chips were down they failed miserably.

Who knows how many times I was almost shot by someone that supposedly knew better.

Shooting holes in paper, and gunfighting, (or even hunting,) are completely different things.
Yes but its easy to shoot at paper. No pressure, no bad lighting, if you miss shoot again, no tunnel vision. Take all the time in the world. If you can't do it in a relaxed state how are you going to do it when a adrenaline is pumping, heart racing and a decision has to be made in a matter of seconds. Add to that draw and fire a good shot. Practicing would not be needed?

So if you know people who knew better and could "shoot wonderfully at the range" how do you think someone who doesn't know better and can't shoot would do?

And this has nothing to do with YOU being afraid of anything. It has to do with someone in my family making a mistake they can't undo simply due to lack of practice. You are not part of this equation.

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  #61  
Old 01-12-2017, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
I hear this a LOT, but it doesn't mean we can't train at all. Every day, when we take our gun off, we can unload and do a few presentations or dry presses to work on trigger control. It only takes a few minutes. Just 5 minutes three times a week would make all of us much better.
Absolutely! +1000

Though I may not fire my carry guns that often, I go through the draw and presentation process regularly, including dry fire with snap caps and reloading.
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  #62  
Old 01-12-2017, 03:18 PM
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Absolutely! +1000

Though I may not fire my carry guns that often, I go through the draw and presentation process regularly, including dry fire with snap caps and reloading.
One thing I would caution on anyone doing draw and dry fire practice ..

Don't get into the habit of drawing and firing right away .. doing only that may cause you to draw and fire your weapon when not meaning to as that has been the way you had practiced !!

That could cause you a very big problem in a self defense situation where you ended up not needing to fire your weapon !!
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Old 01-12-2017, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Whitwabit View Post
One thing I would caution on anyone doing draw and dry fire practice ..

Don't get into the habit of drawing and firing right away .. doing only that may cause you to draw and fire your weapon when not meaning to as that has been the way you had practiced !!

That could cause you a very big problem in a self defense situation where you ended up not needing to fire your weapon !!
or like a deputy I worked with the need suddenly arose to replace the full length mirror in the mens restroom one night.

But the new mirror concealed the bullet hole in the wall well.
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Old 01-12-2017, 09:08 PM
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One thing I would caution on anyone doing draw and dry fire practice ..

Don't get into the habit of drawing and firing right away .. doing only that may cause you to draw and fire your weapon when not meaning to as that has been the way you had practiced !!

That could cause you a very big problem in a self defense situation where you ended up not needing to fire your weapon !!
You make a very good point. Of course we should always follow the dry practice rules and be sure we're safe when doing any kind of dry practice.


However, what is a self-defense situation where you wouldn't be ready to fire as soon as the gun was presented?


I have more, but I'm curious to hear the answer to that question first.
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  #65  
Old 01-12-2017, 09:34 PM
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I shoot my Colt Government every couple of weeks in the wintertime and I do carry it occasionally in the summer. My M37 snub gets shot every couple of weeks year round. I usually shoot a 50 round box at least out of each. I do practice my draw and reloading a little more often than that. Never had a jam in that 1911 but I probably ought to work on clearing jams like in the video.
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Old 01-14-2017, 12:24 AM
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You make a very good point. Of course we should always follow the dry practice rules and be sure we're safe when doing any kind of dry practice.


However, what is a self-defense situation where you wouldn't be ready to fire as soon as the gun was presented?


I have more, but I'm curious to hear the answer to that question first.
Will bite here. A few years ago, I did a lot of dry firing, drawing and firing. Got pretty fast. At a class, we were dry, drill was to draw and present to the target. Guess who's gun made a click?

I drew and fired. Since then, I do dry practice with a scenario in mind, draw to shoot, draw to low ready...

Muscle memory can be a good or bad thing.
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Old 01-14-2017, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Arik View Post
Yes but its easy to shoot at paper. No pressure, no bad lighting, if you miss shoot again, no tunnel vision. Take all the time in the world. If you can't do it in a relaxed state how are you going to do it when a adrenaline is pumping, heart racing and a decision has to be made in a matter of seconds. Add to that draw and fire a good shot. Practicing would not be needed?

So if you know people who knew better and could "shoot wonderfully at the range" how do you think someone who doesn't know better and can't shoot would do?

And this has nothing to do with YOU being afraid of anything. It has to do with someone in my family making a mistake they can't undo simply due to lack of practice. You are not part of this equation.

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When the question is posed at me, you are damn sure I am part of the equation.

You are the ones that want to play the "what if" game. So...

What if a rapest is raping your wife, you never held a gun in your life, and you have access to the rapist's gun.
You are going to call the police, right?

Stop embarrassing yourself.

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Old 01-14-2017, 09:46 AM
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When the question is posed at me, you are damn sure I am part of the equation.

You are the ones that want to play the "what if" game. So...

What if a rapest is raping your wife, you never held a gun in your life, and you have access to the rapist's gun.
You are going to call the police, right?

Stop embarrassing yourself.
I literally didn't play what if. I took him to the range and physically showed him what happens without practice.

Well if I had never held a gun before chances are good that I would miss.

Embarrass myself? Your the one who thinks people who don't practice will turn into Hawkeye under pressure.

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Old 01-14-2017, 10:24 AM
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I literally didn't play what if. I took him to the range and physically showed him what happens without practice.

Well if I had never held a gun before chances are good that I would miss.

Embarrass myself? Your the one who thinks people who don't practice will turn into Hawkeye under pressure.

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Wow, you didn't dissapoint.

You played the "what if game" by asking ME my opinion on a scenario, then told me my opinion was "not part of the equation.". How can you not follow the conversation?

So you didn't call the cops and waited while your wife was attacked, when you could put the gun to the bad guys head and pull the trigger. Problem solving isn't part of self defence? You think I need to step back 7 yards and start fireing?

Your misrepresentation of my argument should embarrass you.

Have fun with that!
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Old 01-14-2017, 10:36 AM
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If the "rapist" with your wife left his gun and let you get that close are you sure he's a rapist?

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Old 01-14-2017, 11:21 AM
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Stop embarrassing yourself.
Maybe take your own advice.
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Old 01-14-2017, 11:28 AM
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Many folks buy a handgun and never shoot it. If marksmanship is the goal, then a person should go to the range very often (once a week or so) until they can shoot good groups. Drawing, dry firing and magazine change exercises can be done at home.
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Old 01-14-2017, 12:05 PM
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I get to the range weekly and always shoot my Primary carry pistol (Shield) and one of my back-ups (G26 or XDMc).

I try to get to the outdoor range once a Month, where the owner lets me use one of the competition bays, so I can set up multiple targets and practice shooting on the move and from cover.
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Old 01-14-2017, 04:49 PM
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A few years ago, I did a lot of dry firing, drawing and firing. Got pretty fast. At a class, we were dry, drill was to draw and present to the target. Guess who's gun made a click?

Muscle memory can be a good or bad thing.
Muscle memory can indeed be a good or bad thing. I have to ask though, if you present to "pointed in" (pointed at the target and ready to shoot), was pressing the trigger a bad thing?

You can present to the ready or you can present to pointed in. If I'm presenting to pointed in, I'm probably needing to shoot and shooting at that point is not a bad thing. If it is, why was I pointed in? The decision to shoot has to be made before the pistol comes out.

There's more, but I don't want to make this too long.

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What if a rapest is raping your wife, you never held a gun in your life, and you have access to the rapist's gun.
This is not a reasonable scenario. Let's modify it to something more realistic. What if your wife is being raped and you have access to your gun, but you haven't practiced? Are you willing to put your wife's life at risk to take that shot?
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Old 01-14-2017, 08:09 PM
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Muscle memory can indeed be a good or bad thing. I have to ask though, if you present to "pointed in" (pointed at the target and ready to shoot), was pressing the trigger a bad thing?

You can present to the ready or you can present to pointed in. If I'm presenting to pointed in, I'm probably needing to shoot and shooting at that point is not a bad thing. If it is, why was I pointed in? The decision to shoot has to be made before the pistol comes out.

There's more, but I don't want to make this too long.

This is not a reasonable scenario. Let's modify it to something more realistic. What if your wife is being raped and you have access to your gun, but you haven't practiced? Are you willing to put your wife's life at risk to take that shot?
I see your point. What I had done is 'taught' myself to draw and fire, almost every time, without thinking about firing. I now practice different things. Like I said, with a scenario in my head. Draw to low ready, present to target... When presenting to the target, yes, I take up slack on the trigger.

The reason I say not to fire each time you practice, is what if the situation, or primary target changes from the time you realize you need your gun, and you draw? Bad guy throws his gun down, turns and starts running away? Not a good time to fire from 'muscle memory'. Or two people, one armed, one not armed. Guy #1 throws gun down, guy #2 draws, and you need to change target priority. Interesting topic.
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Old 01-15-2017, 12:08 AM
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The reason I say not to fire each time you practice, is what if...
Brother, I believe we are in violent agreement here. No need to add a scenario, just asking "what if..." is enough.

When we present to pointed in, we need to be ready to press the trigger immediately. It has to be an aimed and intentional shot. Emphasis on intentional. When I do dry practice, every "shot" is an aimed, intentional shot. If your mindset is on the whole of the presentation, rather than just pressing the trigger, you aren't really developing muscle memory causing you to fire unintentionally.

Yes, when on target, the trigger finger should be on the trigger with the slack out. It's not a bad idea to do some practice just coming out to pointed in and not firing. It helps you learn where the right place is for your trigger finger.

However, I suspect that if you really need to present your gun in self-defense, you won't have time to see the bad guy drop his gun and run. The only chance for that would be if he started running away before you cleared leather.

Take a look at this video:

This is how I think most gun defense will go for normal people. As you can see, the bad guys didn't have time to run until after the first shot.
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Old 01-15-2017, 12:27 AM
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.... I'm shaky and it takes a little practice to get back in the groove. My 'skills' are VERY perishable. Of course if I'm accosted I won't have time to 'warm up'.
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Old 01-15-2017, 01:25 AM
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You make a very good point. Of course we should always follow the dry practice rules and be sure we're safe when doing any kind of dry practice.


However, what is a self-defense situation where you wouldn't be ready to fire as soon as the gun was presented?


I have more, but I'm curious to hear the answer to that question first.
He didnt say not to be READY to fire...he said not to FIRE.
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Old 01-15-2017, 02:16 AM
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I think we are on the same page Rastoff. My point was simply to repeat what was said, don't just practice draw and fire every time you dry practice.

My thinking is whatever draw you do, it is all the same before you go to low ready, or present, or present and fire. That muscle memory should not cause you legal problems, and, as you said, can be practiced when you are ready to take your gun off for the day.
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Old 01-15-2017, 02:51 PM
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He didnt say not to be READY to fire...he said not to FIRE.
Yes, but the point is, if firing wasn't a legal and necessary step, why was the gun out at all?
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Old 01-15-2017, 03:04 PM
Fred_G Fred_G is offline
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Yes, but the point is, if firing wasn't a legal and necessary step, why was the gun out at all?
Maybe they saw the gun, and dropped their weapon? Making a good shoot into a bad one if you shoot them, as the threat has passed. Splitting hairs a bit I know.
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Old 01-15-2017, 04:26 PM
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Yes, but the point is, if firing wasn't a legal and necessary step, why was the gun out at all?
I have drawn my weapon a few times in self-defense where I didn't think it would likely be necessary to fire. And every defense scenario isn't a gunfight or gun vs gun.

Last edited by Mister X; 01-15-2017 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 01-15-2017, 05:55 PM
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i shoot 250-300 rounds/week, because it's fun.
i have rejected the 3 major combat stances because i live in the real world.
if i need the gun at all, i need it fast.
so, i fire weight on right leg, on left leg, bending, stooping, kneeling, walking, in short, from any position i might be in when i see a rattler or evil bunny.
n yup, if i draw the gun, i fire the gun. it's one thing.
faster that way.
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  #84  
Old 01-15-2017, 09:23 PM
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I have drawn my weapon a few times in self-defense where I didn't think it would likely be necessary to fire.
Did you present to pointed in or to the ready?
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Old 01-15-2017, 09:25 PM
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Maybe they saw the gun, and dropped their weapon?
Yeah, but if I got my gun all the way to pointed in BEFORE they dropped it, a shot is necessary. If they dropped it in the process of pointing in, I've got time to not shoot.
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Old 01-15-2017, 10:13 PM
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I qualified 4 times a year for 25 years. In between I shot for fun.

Now I'm retired. I shoot for fun about once a week.

I'm pretty sure I could still shoot a sassy bandit if I needed to.

I was on a fugitive task force with a bunch of New Orleans PD guys. They were all fairly/barely competent shots who had no interest in shooting other than they had to qualify to be on the task force. I'm sure a lot of non-cops could outshoot them at the range.

They had all killed people in straight-up gunfights. Every one of them, and most more than once. Not shooting at cars or fleeing felons. Good old "you've got a gun, I've got a gun" gunfights. They went into possible fights with their guns in their hands, not their holsters. They didn't need to do 1,000 "presentations" to build muscle memory. They knew people, and they knew when to shoot them. I would rather face trouble with them than someone who spent all of their spare time at the range and all of their disposable income on ammo.

I agree people should practice until they feel comfortable with their chosen gun, but there is marksmanship and there is gunfighting. I'm sticking with the gunfighters.
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Old 01-16-2017, 11:42 AM
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I qualified 4 times a year for 25 years. In between I shot for fun.

Now I'm retired. I shoot for fun about once a week.

I'm pretty sure I could still shoot a sassy bandit if I needed to.

I was on a fugitive task force with a bunch of New Orleans PD guys. They were all fairly/barely competent shots who had no interest in shooting other than they had to qualify to be on the task force. I'm sure a lot of non-cops could outshoot them at the range.

They had all killed people in straight-up gunfights. Every one of them, and most more than once. Not shooting at cars or fleeing felons. Good old "you've got a gun, I've got a gun" gunfights. They went into possible fights with their guns in their hands, not their holsters. They didn't need to do 1,000 "presentations" to build muscle memory. They knew people, and they knew when to shoot them. I would rather face trouble with them than someone who spent all of their spare time at the range and all of their disposable income on ammo.

I agree people should practice until they feel comfortable with their chosen gun, but there is marksmanship and there is gunfighting. I'm sticking with the gunfighters.
These "gunfighters" had a background of firearms training and regular qualifications, I'm assuming, as well as, real world experience. I would think that their skill level would be way above the average Joe. The real world experience tests one's willingness to use deadly force and how to resort to their training under extreme duress. Most police officers and civilians never are tested as to that (fortunately). I do believe that having one's gun in one's hand is the "fastest draw". I think marksmanship is important to learn and being able to smoothly present one's firearm. Many after action reports of police officers who survive a shootout point out that seeing the sights to some degree was what ended the fight in the officer's favor. Tactics is important for the military and police, but is pretty much a waste for civilians, as are extensive reload drills, etc.
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Old 01-16-2017, 12:46 PM
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They went into possible fights with their guns in their hands, not their holsters.
This is the huge difference between a "fugitive task force" and us regular civilians; they knew when they would need their gun.
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Old 01-16-2017, 02:24 PM
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You make a very good point. Of course we should always follow the dry practice rules and be sure we're safe when doing any kind of dry practice.


However, what is a self-defense situation where you wouldn't be ready to fire as soon as the gun was presented?


I have more, but I'm curious to hear the answer to that question first.
I said don't fire every time it is presented !! not don't be ready any time you draw your weapon legitimately ..

Its winter 30 degrees your wearing a jacket with it zipped up .. pistol at 4 IWB .. and its around 5:30 just dark .. Hooded figure with a back pack on carrying a baseball bat in both hands comes running toward you .. your pumping gas at a convenient store .. 25 feet you yell stop figure continues at speed towards you .. Coat zipper yanked down and you start your draw and the figure runs by you .. looking at you weirdly for yelling at him !!! a high school kid getting out of winter indoor baseball practice .. running to get home to eat I would guess was probably cold was 3 blocks from the school .. evidently didn't see the drawn pistol .. kept right on running !!

Happen to a friend .. he came over to my house still visibly upset at what almost happened .. be careful when dry firing and pulling the trigger every time with out reacting to the situation as it unfolds !!! It can change drastically from the time our mind says start your draw till when your pistol is on target ..

If during your dry fire practice you fire your weapon every time .. you will likely fire it in a SD if your draw it whether you meant to or not ..
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Old 01-16-2017, 05:03 PM
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I used to shoot 2-3 times a week.

Then when the economy tanked and I was unemployed or underemployed, worked from 3:00pm-11:00pm (frequently until 1-3:00am actually), and could barely pay my rent, I simply stopped shooting. I had neither the time nor the money.

Now I'm making decent money, but work 11:30am-8:00pm, and can only shoot on the weekends... when I'm not on call. I dropped my club membership since I could never shoot anyway. Now I only shoot occasionally at a public range which is quite expensive, as they all are here.

My current contract is coming to an end. If I get another job with convenient hours, I'll re-join the club... assuming that I'll get another job.
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Old 01-16-2017, 06:37 PM
Lee's Landing Billy Lee's Landing Billy is offline
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I shoot every day. I shoot J Frames, K Frames, N Frames, SA Revolvers, DA/SA Autos, and SA Autos, Striker and Hammer fired. I fire no more than 30 shots a day 6 days a week. On the 7th, when all my shooters are here, The amount can be extensive. Muscle memory is the key for ME. I can not remember the last time I just threw away a shot. Every shot has to count. I have done this for quite a few years, it works for ME. I don't think everybody could or should do this, but it works for me. I start every day the same..Hackathorn's Wizard drill..requires 5 shots. Then our drill for us, 5 shots from low ready in 2 seconds, must be all As. Then I vary things. Since we have to carry from concealment outside the Gates, 95% of all our shooting is done that way. So, that's what we do.
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Old 01-16-2017, 07:08 PM
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billy's method works.
that's how i learned bulls eye.
now, i'm learning point shooting the same way, 30 shots/day plus 1 big day.
it's what i can afford.
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