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Old 01-23-2017, 09:57 AM
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What's the best .410 handgun ammo for the judge that shouldn't penetrate a wall. Have kids in bedrooms close by? I picked up a box of Winchester pdx1 that has 3 discs and 12 shots pellets in it but haven't had a chance to try it out. Is that a good load or is there something better?
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Old 01-23-2017, 10:28 AM
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I wouldn't use a .410 in a Judge for home defense unless I absolutely had to and here's why...

Why You Shouldn't Use .410 Shotshells for Defense - The Firearm BlogThe Firearm Blog
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Old 01-23-2017, 10:39 AM
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.45 Colt. Hardcast lead SWC or wadcutter.
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Old 01-23-2017, 10:56 AM
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Best for home defense? Not a judge or a .410 shotgun. Just use the PDX1's for now and buy a 12ga shotgun or a 9/.40 glock
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Old 01-23-2017, 12:08 PM
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So your saying I just need to keep the judge for my snake gun and use something else? My main concern is to not pop one of my kids through an interior wall. I have .22 .380 acp 38 special and 357 magnum also. Which would be less lethal through a wall and still provide stopping power?
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Old 01-23-2017, 01:16 PM
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Your pdx round should be a good choice .I prefer the federal buckshot load that is designed for handguns it groups very well out of my governor.You will find a lot of judge and governor hate on here mainly from people who have never tried one.It just does not fit their idea of a handgun.So in the end what you need to do is try a few different rounds and make up your own mind.Good luck and good shooting.
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Old 01-23-2017, 01:24 PM
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PDX1 is probably a good choice. Hornady makes a pretty good round too. Whatever you do, don't use birdshot. It will likely bind up your cylinder. At least it does in my Governor. That, and it will likely be ineffective.

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Old 01-23-2017, 01:42 PM
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Ditto for the PDX1. I load 'em in my Governor, although I do change around regularly between 000, .45 Colt, and .45 ACP. I'm not as worried about my rounds going somewhere they shouldn't as I am the bad guy's . . .
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Old 01-23-2017, 03:22 PM
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I don't think you can rely on ANY effective handgun round to not penetrate two layers of drywall and thus hurt someone on the other side. If that is what your walls are, you are going to have to make some very careful plans about how to handle home defense or choose a non-firearm type of weapon. I live in an old apartment and have the same problem with not just the walls, but the ceiling as well. Think it through and establish procedures for yourself and your family.
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Old 01-23-2017, 04:05 PM
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I understand the desire to not penetrate drywall to safeguard kids.

Unfortunately, effective sd depends on penetration.

I'm pretty unimpressed with 410 loads for pistols.

OP should consider a dog.

Most BGs avoid homes with dogs: why bother with a home with a dog when the dogless homes have the same stuff?

Effective hd doesn't always involve a firearm.

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Old 01-23-2017, 04:10 PM
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The .410 load is a poor choice for any kind of self defense against a human predator. If I was forced to use one, it would only be the Winchester PDX1.

There are options in frangible bullets for normal handguns that are designed not to over-penetrate such as the Glaser safety slugs. I might go with one of those over any .410 load if I was in your situation.

Last edited by Concerned Citizen; 01-24-2017 at 04:11 AM.
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Old 01-23-2017, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 77blackcj5 View Post
So your saying I just need to keep the judge for my snake gun and use something else? My main concern is to not pop one of my kids through an interior wall. I have .22 .380 acp 38 special and 357 magnum also. Which would be less lethal through a wall and still provide stopping power?

Having played around with many types of material on the firing range, we have been forced to conclude that any projectile that will do serious damage to a human will go through common wallboard like it wasn't there. Any ordinary .22 will penetrate a 2X4. It is extremely dangerous to shoot inside a typical house, and you need to be sure of your target and what lies beyond.
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Old 01-23-2017, 06:12 PM
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I wouldn't want to get shot by any of it. I suppose you could load 2 PDX & the rest with 45 Colt in the event of some drugged up superhero BG not retreating after the first 2 shots.
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Old 01-23-2017, 06:52 PM
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Probably not anything I'll ever have to worry about unless they make it all the way thru house into my bedroom door opening. Just thinking things out cause we suffered a break in last week while we were gone. We have since gotten adt security system installed. I just picked up a box of the federal handgun 000 buckshot it looks better than the pdx1. Just can't imagine a bg being able to take 5 rds of buckshot.
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Old 01-23-2017, 07:00 PM
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Since you have other options available, I would go with the .38 Special. Very few would argue with that choice.

BTW, have you fired a cylinder full of those buckshot loads? How fast can you get it back on target?
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Old 01-23-2017, 07:33 PM
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I wouldn't want to get shot by any of it. I suppose you could load 2 PDX & the rest with 45 Colt in the event of some drugged up superhero BG not retreating after the first 2 shots.
Why would you load 2 poorly penetrating rounds, then 3 45 Colt??? If you can not stop BG with first 2 rounds, What, then forget about the kids and just shoot 45 Colt and hope they are ducking????

Speer does make a 250 gr Gold Dot HP which would be a fairly effective SD round instead of 380, or 38/357.

Darkenfast's post about an alternative plan other than a firearm is the most logical & reasonable. Obviously you want to protect your self and family and only having drywall between the projectile and innocents is not the best plan.

I have no children But, I do have 2 Rotts that are faster & louder than I, bigger teeth, and can still hear!!, and a wife that shoots very well.
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Old 01-23-2017, 07:56 PM
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Why would you load 2 poorly penetrating rounds, then 3 45 Colt??? If you can not stop BG with first 2 rounds, What, then forget about the kids and just shoot 45 Colt and hope they are ducking????
Want to stand in front of those first two?
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Old 01-23-2017, 08:03 PM
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Just put a couple of each. At close range those .410 will work just fine. Chances are you'll never be in that situation in your life time and many more

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Old 01-23-2017, 10:40 PM
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I would think more about setting up the eventual engagement, rather than what I was hurling (which would probably be some sort of conventional handgun round).

In an ideal situation, I would control the area leading to the bedrooms (hallway, staircase, or whatever) from a position tht provided a clear "backstop".


Here: take a look at this home layout. It's such a crappy tactical layout it's realistic.



If I attempt to defend Bedrooms #2 and/or #3 from the doorway of Bedroom #1, then I'd be firing directly at those rooms.

A better choice would be to get the lights on in the Dining/Kitchen/Living Room area, then move either to the kitchen sink if the intrusion is coming from the front. If the intrusion is coming from the rear or the utility area, I would move to the entryway closet.

If it's coming from the utility closet, I could use the kitchen island as cover, but then I'm out in the open, and exposed to flanking from the Dining Room slider and windows, and the Living Room doors/windows. Something about standing in the middle of an open area just gets wets my fur, so to speak. I like me some walls.

I mean, literally any way you cut it, if all three bedrooms are occupied, then it's a tactical **** sandwich, but still.

If I could leave one non-master bedroom unoccupied in the above layout, it would be Bedroom #2, because firing at the front door from the Master means using that wall as a backstop.

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Old 01-24-2017, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 77blackcj5 View Post
Probably not anything I'll ever have to worry about unless they make it all the way thru house into my bedroom door opening. Just thinking things out cause we suffered a break in last week while we were gone. We have since gotten adt security system installed. I just picked up a box of the federal handgun 000 buckshot it looks better than the pdx1. Just can't imagine a bg being able to take 5 rds of buckshot.
Keep in mind that the ballistics performance of the 000 buckshot out of a Judge or S&W Governor will be vastly inferior then the same round out of a real shotgun. A good .410 load would not be a bad one for home defense if it were fired out of a long gun. That same .410 load fired through a 2.5" Judge would not be nearly as effective.

Also, you are assuming you will hit the bad guy (if there is only one) with all 5 rounds of .410. Good luck with that after being rudely awakened from sleep, scared and firing into the half-dark.

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Old 01-24-2017, 04:39 AM
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...give 'em both barrels...



Say hello to the Pedersoli .45/.410 double barrel Howdah pistol


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Old 01-24-2017, 09:50 AM
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Yesterday I watched a you tube video of the federal 000 410 ammo and it shredded the gel block at close range with multiple shots. I will have to decide for myself I guess. From what I can tell most burglars only attempt it when their sure your not there to avoid confrontation. Not really overly worried about invasion but trying to be more ready than before.
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Old 01-25-2017, 04:11 AM
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Want to stand in front of those first two?
Rather not, though I do not know of any documented shootings with the PDX1 load, so I do not know if it would penetrate through sternum, and through organs ( Heart & lung ) to destroy or disrupt them to stop the attack. A 45 Colt will pass through an arm, chest, organs. You can reach the heart with a 3.5 " needle through the anterior chest wall, avoiding the sternum and lung in a controlled condition. I would be curious to see any actual shooting reports with the PDX1 or any other 410 shells fired from a handgun. I have 2 Judges which shoot 45 colt well, they tend to spray 410 loads starting at about 5 feet, the 20 foot "pattern" is poor, 3" chamber and barrel. You tube using PDX1 and 3 000 buck pellets on a pork shoulder, did get through 2 sheets of dry wall, did not make it through all 4 sheets of dry wall, shot from 10 feet. "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXHzFntUAp4 It did break pork rib I do not know how it would fare with the sternum. Be Safe,
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Old 01-27-2017, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
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What's the best .410 handgun ammo for the judge that shouldn't penetrate a wall. Have kids in bedrooms close by? I picked up a box of Winchester pdx1 that has 3 discs and 12 shots pellets in it but haven't had a chance to try it out. Is that a good load or is there something better?


I read all the prior posts. It is true larger caliber, higher powered cartridges are better at stopping threats. However, if your goal is to stop threats without killing innocent family members, your choice is reasonable. There is a trade off in home defense where other family members behind walls may be in a line of fire.

For people who scoff at .410 pistols as being anemic, all I can say is I have used a .410 loaded with #4 to send a number of armadillos to the afterlife, and the ammo had to penetrate a rather thick shell.

Maybe some people might not stop charging you after the first hit, that's why they make 410 revolvers. A fully loaded judge with 00 buckshot can put the equivalent of 30 22 caliber rounds into an attacker in about 5 seconds. Even the toughest would probably be on the ground after the second round.

PDX is a good defense round because even if you"miss" on the first round you are likely to splatter the perp with some of the small shot. That gives you time in the next second to refine your aim.


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Old 01-27-2017, 08:31 PM
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Want to stand in front of those first two?
Mentioned it before but I'll mention it again. I wouldn't want to stand in front of a pellet gun but it would be my last choice for self defense

To the op: you shouldn't shoot towards your kids regardless of caliber or ammo used. No way I would trust a projectile to stop in the wall
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Old 01-27-2017, 09:13 PM
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Specific tactics for your floorplan aside, if the Judge is what you're planning to use for home defense, I'd go with three of the #4 shotshells, and then two .45 Colt JHP's. I support the evidence in the blog posted by 5.56guy that the shotshells probably wouldn't stop or kill, and would probably not penetrate two layers of drywall. Three of them would, however, disorient and divert an attacker while you are moving to position yourself for a safe background for the last two shots (the .45 Colt's) to finish the guy off. I don't see the Judge as much more than a novelty firearm, wouldn't own one myself. Too heavy and too limited. I'd have a back-up handy if I was using one for home defense.
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Old 01-27-2017, 10:18 PM
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Want to stand in front of those first two?
Non sequitur.
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Old 05-11-2017, 10:18 PM
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Old 05-12-2017, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shell627 View Post
Your pdx round should be a good choice .I prefer the federal buckshot load that is designed for handguns it groups very well out of my governor.You will find a lot of judge and governor hate on here mainly from people who have never tried one.It just does not fit their idea of a handgun.So in the end what you need to do is try a few different rounds and make up your own mind.Good luck and good shooting.
This depends on which judge you have. I have a poly which you can not use Federal buckshot in because it will bind up the cylinder. I found this out after buying it and shooting them. I. Basically bought the gun just for that round and now can't use it. Hopefully you have a different version. Otherwise the Winchester rounds are in mine now.
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Old 05-12-2017, 09:11 AM
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Watch from 6:15 in. All 4 Federal 000 buck pellets made it completely through the ballistic gel. Not bad at all:

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Old 07-18-2017, 07:06 PM
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Most arguments of "stopping power" seem to mean "Kill power". If I'm using a .410/.45 revolver I'm not trying to kill. I only want to stop the attack. If I truly want to kill I'm shooting something with a 7.62 mm slug MINIMUM through a 14 inch barrel or longer. (30.06 is my first choice)
If I'm using a handgun my preferred results are 1:The sight of the handgun will give the perp second thoughts, 2:One shot will be enough to cause them to flee whether they are hit or not, 3:If I have to shoot them it will slow them down so I can get away or, if in my home, they will be disabled from further action.
Two things I would prefer to avoid 1:An extended gun battle, 2:Killing another person, even if I am "in the right". That is why I would be inclined to fire multiple rounds of shot or a self defense disk/shot round in a handgun.
Just my thoughts, take it for what it's worth.
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  #32  
Old 07-19-2017, 02:00 AM
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I have recently switched to a governor as my main HD handgun. Over penetration was one of the reasons as I have kids as well. However, as has already been stated, any round that will be terminally effective on a human being will go through drywall. Even the .410 buckshot. Shot placement is very important.

I keep mine loaded with 3 rounds of Federal 000 buck and 3 rounds of Underwood .45 colt maximum expansion every other round. The penetration on the Colt isn't too impressive, however they expand to about 1.7". My hope is that should a shot not be true that if it does go through 4-6 layers of drywall that it will have lost some velocity.

I use the Federal over the PDX1 because I had a round that I put in my Bond arms that was a dud. All the boxes of Federal I used have fired. The only issue I had was once I had to use a pencil to extract a case. The rounds in that box were a little out of spec. They all went bang though.

I did a google search once and found 2 instances of Federal 000 buck being used to stop a car jacker. In both of them it was one shot and the perp was worm food. I know one of the guys used the 3" Federal shell and all 5 hit. 3 in the chest area and 2 in the throat if I recall correctly. Both uses were also with a Bond arms which has an even shorter barrel to build velocity. Granted both shootings were at near contact distance so keep that in mind too.

For me personally I feel that inside my home the distance I would shoot if need be would be close enough. I love my family and if someone enters my home I am going to find and engage for fear of my children being hurt. I live in the country and have long guns and other fire arms should I need a longer shot. I wouldn't go outside with my Governor except for a poisonous snake. It would be either my 870p, my 92, .300 blk pistol or an AR type rifle.

I also wouldn't carry a judge or governor on the street, at least not loaded with .410, and they would be harder to conceal. I do keep a bond arms loaded with .410 in my pocket or in a driving holster during road trips, but that is in addition to a 1911 on my hip. The derringer is just another option incase someone approaching gives off a bad vibe. I can stick my hand in my pocket and prepare without raising an alarm or clearing leather in case my judgement is wrong.

Please forgive me if my post is a little rambling. Just sharing my thought and opinions. And they are just that, opinions. You have to think and decide what is best for you and yours. Good luck and God bless.
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Old 07-19-2017, 02:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven1952 View Post
Most arguments of "stopping power" seem to mean "Kill power". If I'm using a .410/.45 revolver I'm not trying to kill. I only want to stop the attack. If I truly want to kill I'm shooting something with a 7.62 mm slug MINIMUM through a 14 inch barrel or longer. (30.06 is my first choice)
If I'm using a handgun my preferred results are 1:The sight of the handgun will give the perp second thoughts, 2:One shot will be enough to cause them to flee whether they are hit or not, 3:If I have to shoot them it will slow them down so I can get away or, if in my home, they will be disabled from further action.
Two things I would prefer to avoid 1:An extended gun battle, 2:Killing another person, even if I am "in the right". That is why I would be inclined to fire multiple rounds of shot or a self defense disk/shot round in a handgun.
Just my thoughts, take it for what it's worth.
The whole point of "stopping power" is to rapidly incapacitate a bad guy, whether or not he lives or dies is irrelevant. Using weaker ammunition seems like a way to get into that extended gun battle you're trying to avoid (and still carries the possibility of killing the bad guy too).

If your goal is a less lethal option why not a shotgun with beanbags or maybe a Taser?
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Old 07-21-2017, 02:17 PM
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Probably not anything I'll ever have to worry about unless they make it all the way thru house into my bedroom door opening. Just thinking things out cause we suffered a break in last week while we were gone. We have since gotten adt security system installed. I just picked up a box of the federal handgun 000 buckshot it looks better than the pdx1. Just can't imagine a bg being able to take 5 rds of buckshot.
If you have a Judge poly make sure you practice with many rounds first. That ammo, even though for handgun will bind up a judge poly. I discussed this on a Judge forum and is a major problem. I own one and have personally experienced it.
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Old 07-21-2017, 02:34 PM
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Non sequitur.
No, it's a question . . .
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Old 07-21-2017, 03:39 PM
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No, it's a question . . .
"Want to stand in front of those first two?"

A question unrelated to self defense.

I don't like being hit by water balloons, and wouldn't volunteer to stand in front of them.
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  #37  
Old 07-21-2017, 03:48 PM
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Some years back, I did some testing on various .410 buckshot loads. The ones with the 0000 shot patterned better than the one with the discs. May penetrate better as well.
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Old 07-21-2017, 04:00 PM
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I'd load it with whatever it takes to get it traded in on a realistic defensive weapon. If I was camping maybe it makes sense. I'm not opposed to radical approaches, but these revolvers are ugly and if they really don't get any power out of the shot shells...useless. It was an attempt to get something more for nothing extra and all succeeded in was creating something extra providing nothing more. It was aimed at the unprepared to create reassurance. Buy an AK pistol, it's more powerful and simpler to use and maintain...
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Old 07-21-2017, 05:39 PM
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I'd load it with whatever it takes to get it traded in on a realistic defensive weapon. If I was camping maybe it makes sense. I'm not opposed to radical approaches, but these revolvers are ugly and if they really don't get any power out of the shot shells...useless. It was an attempt to get something more for nothing extra and all succeeded in was creating something extra providing nothing more. It was aimed at the unprepared to create reassurance. Buy an AK pistol, it's more powerful and simpler to use and maintain...
I disagree. The Judge et al do have a real niche. Shot loads for snakes, .45 Colt for self defense. There are some people, e.g., in urban apartments, with children, where penetration is a real issue, so a triple-ought buck load is rational.

But, yeah, all the other stuff is BS/marketing.
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Old 07-21-2017, 08:32 PM
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At "across the room" distance, I would expect the buckshot loads to be quite lethal. May be wrong, but there's one by my bedside.
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Old 07-21-2017, 11:03 PM
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I disagree. The Judge et al do have a real niche. Shot loads for snakes, .45 Colt for self defense. There are some people, e.g., in urban apartments, with children, where penetration is a real issue, so a triple-ought buck load is rational.

But, yeah, all the other stuff is BS/marketing.
I was joking about the AK pistol. If penetration is such an issue buy some sheets of AR 500 1/4" and put them in the drywall. That way when the shooting starts you can duck and be protected from over penetration.
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Old 07-21-2017, 11:21 PM
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People have been killing deer with the .410 for decades. Use buckshot or .45 Colt, and practice with whatever load you select. This is not really a bard decision. Anything lethal will penetrate drywall.
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Old 07-23-2017, 03:27 PM
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People have been killing deer with the .410 for decades. Use buckshot or .45 Colt, and practice with whatever load you select. This is not really a bard decision. Anything lethal will penetrate drywall.
You forget that is 410 out of a 18"+ barrel which is far different than 410 out of a handgun

Last edited by Brasky; 07-23-2017 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 07-23-2017, 04:21 PM
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Ok, the .410 may not be the best defensive round to ever come down the pike. I would have never bought one of my own accord, but my late father in law wanted one which we gave him for Christmas a few years back. I have since inherited it along with all his other guns. Now, you would tell me that this revolver, which spits out 4 triple ought buck at a time is ineffective at the range of a few feet. It's been a few years since I've shot the Judge (2.5" cylinder, 3" barrel), but I distinctly remember seeing a very tight pattern at 10-15', and having the distinct feeling that I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that weapon. My thought is that any shot size smaller than BB is probably a no go except for snakes. Not sure how good it would be on snakes from a safe distance. Never tried any bird shot in it. I have some .45 Colt ammo for it, but I have better choices in that caliber for self defense. My question is, how many of the bashers have actually fired on of these guns? I have other guns on my nightstand as well, but the Judge might be my first choice in the event of an invasion. I don't have room on my nightstand for the riot gun or an AR. Both are available to repel boarders, but there are logistics that need to be overcome.
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Old 07-23-2017, 05:14 PM
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Ok, the .410 may not be the best defensive round to ever come down the pike. I would have never bought one of my own accord, but my late father in law wanted one which we gave him for Christmas a few years back. I have since inherited it along with all his other guns. Now, you would tell me that this revolver, which spits out 4 triple ought buck at a time is ineffective at the range of a few feet. It's been a few years since I've shot the Judge (2.5" cylinder, 3" barrel), but I distinctly remember seeing a very tight pattern at 10-15', and having the distinct feeling that I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that weapon. My thought is that any shot size smaller than BB is probably a no go except for snakes. Not sure how good it would be on snakes from a safe distance. Never tried any bird shot in it. I have some .45 Colt ammo for it, but I have better choices in that caliber for self defense. My question is, how many of the bashers have actually fired on of these guns? I have other guns on my nightstand as well, but the Judge might be my first choice in the event of an invasion. I don't have room on my nightstand for the riot gun or an AR. Both are available to repel boarders, but there are logistics that need to be overcome.
Nobody needs to shoot a handgun to understand it's capabilities. I'll take 16 rounds of 147gr HSTs anyday over a handful of 410s in a firearm that fits in the same footprint and reloads faster.

I could even carry 8 rounds of 230gr HSTs in a firearm that is quite a bit smaller and I'll trust 9, 40, or 45 HSTs anyday to get the job done.

These 410s are a far cry from someone's best option for self defense unless they are being attacked by snakes
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Old 07-23-2017, 05:28 PM
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Since you already have a 38 and a 357, why not use Glaser Safety Slugs? Your situation is exactly what they were designed for!

Glaser Safety Slug
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Old 07-23-2017, 05:37 PM
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Since you already have a 38 and a 357, why not use Glaser Safety Slugs? Your situation is exactly what they were designed for!

Glaser Safety Slug
Some loud blanks would be just as good.
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Old 07-23-2017, 06:59 PM
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Nobody needs to shoot a handgun to understand it's capabilities. I'll take 16 rounds of 147gr HSTs anyday over a handful of 410s in a firearm that fits in the same footprint and reloads faster.

I could even carry 8 rounds of 230gr HSTs in a firearm that is quite a bit smaller and I'll trust 9, 40, or 45 HSTs anyday to get the job done.

These 410s are a far cry from someone's best option for self defense unless they are being attacked by snakes
That is an incorrect statement. While conceptually simple, discharging a firearm is the ONLY way to truly understand the experience.

The snake statement is unfounded.
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Old 07-23-2017, 09:55 PM
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That is an incorrect statement. While conceptually simple, discharging a firearm is the ONLY way to truly understand the experience.

The snake statement is unfounded.
Shooting a firearm is the only way to find out if it is the right fit for you.

I don't need to shoot a firearm to know if the caliber is insufficient compared to other calibers in its class.
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