What are you doing that involves multiple armed encounters?

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Retired Career Security Guard

At that time... living in Detroit.

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Stay protected my friends.

...regarding those who only care about 'me or mine' if the victim(s) the next time I intervene is one of 'yours?'

Naaaah, I don't discriminate; I will always help those in need.

Be safe.

The point that people are making is that you may not be "helping" ANYBODY, yourself included.

If you "protect" some female in a domestic dispute and she either lies to the cops and says you were the aggressor, or she physically attacks you or helps her assailant attack you, what have you accomplished? Whom have you "helped"?

You have to make the choice of whether to intervene or not, but you should do it with your eyes wide open, and you probably ought to give it a LOT of thought before it happens.

You'll have to duck and cover. Beware I or they don't confuse you for another attacker . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Believe me, I don't do anything in that regard without considering options and outcomes.

But in my career (on and off duty; primary jurisdiction or not) never had an outcome unfavorable to me and, in the end, the victim(s.) Since then the same has been true.

Bear in mind, like most LEO's I was/am prepared better than most folks.

I do understand there are inherent risks. And clearly I do not relish these situations.

Be safe.

""A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire "
Didn't he get an electrical shock?

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

Honestly, that should probably enter into the "intervene or not" calculus. I hadn't thought of it this way--hear me out.

Let's say you intervene before you'd be justified in drawing. Now you're in a situation where the suspected bad guy has the initiative. He's the one making the decision as to whether the fight escalates, and you're doing it on his terms. That's not a position I'd want to start a fight in!

Otherwise, yeah--I'd be looking to stack the deck in terms of positioning. Maximum distance, and ideally an obstacle in between me and him. Not a lot of times you see that. Even in public areas, wall-to-wall distance is rarely very far, and your "backstop" usually sucks.

Honestly, I hear a lot of stuff about close-quarters fights. From what I've seen, for civilians, the stats don't back it up (Givens and Correia have crunched the numbers). And to be frank, I'd much rather put my chips on awareness and avoidance so I don't have to fight in stabbing range.

That would do it

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Retired Career Security Guard

Yes, I would intervene.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Close-quarter fights and defense situations are very common. What these various stats seem to show is that armed civilians using firearms in them is not. Not every scenario requires a gun solution, but I see reported assaults on a regular basis that probably do, even in cases when the attacker(s) is unarmed. I'm not familiar with with any study by Correia(Larry?), but I am with the Givens study, which is fairy limited(only 66 cases and only involving past or present students) as well as Claude Werner's stats in the Armed Citizen(500 cases) and they do show that the specific civilian self-defense shootings they documented occurred at very close distances, but not at extreme close-quarters or contact distances. A great number of the Givens incidents were armed robberies IIRC. And how many absolutely required a lethal force response. According to his stats, most scenarios necessitating the use of a firearm occurred in public places whereas Werner's showed the opposite with the majority being home defense. So, there can be inconsistencies between different stats.

One could look at these stats and dismiss the need for ECQ skills, but I think an analytical consideration of what the stats do and do not show contradicts that perception. The armed citizen only shows cases where the defender was successful. Any incidents where the victim was unable to access their weapon or disarmed were not included. I would wager that the majority of violent crimes perpetuated against civilians occur at contact ranges since I'm pretty sure the combined numbers of unarmed physical assaults, rape, stabbings, bludgeonings would outnumber shootings by a relatively wide margin.

So, if the majority of violent crimes happen at contact distances, why don't we see more armed civilians shootings occuring at these ranges? I'm not asserting that this is absolute fact or even that I'm correct at all, but I think it is debatable and my theory is this...

1. Most Americans do not carry a firearm.

2. Even if carrying a firearm, the average armed citizen lacks the skills and ability to access and effectively use the weapon in a reactive ECQ scenario.

3. I would say that the armed citizen is generally much more situationally aware than most and does often see danger before it's on top them, therefore avoiding the problem altogether or frequently proactively puts themselves into a more advantageous position which is ideal.

However, no one can accurately assess and be aware of all potential threats all of the time or should count on having a certain amount of warning, time and distance. Avoidance, alertness and situational awareness does not negate point number 2 as most gun centric folks are severely lacking in reactive ECQ skills and either they see the threat in time and are more likely successful or don't and subsequently assaulted.

Pretty much just thinking out loud here.

I'd propose that the appearance of a gun interrupts the attacker's plans, and that people naturally move away from threats. That, and the shooters in question mostly decided to shoot before the threat was on top of them.

Does that sort of training have value? Sure, at some point. But I think that the vast majority of shooters are nowhere near that point. Most people can't operate their pistols under stress, much less present quickly or hit things. I mean, I've had CCW-seekers in qualifications insert a magazine, aim and squeeze the trigger, and when nothing happened, turn to me and say, "It's jammed."

Frighteningly common, and wrong on so many levels.

But to be quite frank, forget 'em. Nothing you say to or do with these people is going to wake them up or make them less of a threat to themselves.

Me? Dunno. Even when I'm out-and-about, most people aren't that close. I'd bet I'd have a different opinion of it if I spent more time in malls or lived in the cities.

If you're going to get involved in other people's psychodrama, I HIGHLY recommend that you carry and use some kind of recording device.

When I have a gun on my body, I'm recording. While this is primarily for law enforcement encounters, doing so was INVALUABLE in an encounter with a couple of aggressive protestors intentionally blocking the view from a sunken driveway, and trying to CAUSE traffic accidents.

A lawyer friend paid me to take pictures of them trying to cause an accident. One and then the other confronted me, trying to start a fistfight. I said not a word to either of them, and let them hurl their insults and threats.

When my friend played the recording for the other protestors, they were disgusted and expelled the troublemakers from their group.

Furthermore, I was armed at the time, and had I had to shoot one of them, my recording would have shown them to be the aggressors.

"What if" this, "What if" that. You can talk and speculate till you're blue in the face. Till it actually happens, you don't know how you'll respond.

I can't say exactly *how* I'd respond unless something happens, but I certainly would respond.

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Stay protected my friends.

As a former cop, I can easily tell you that in family disputes the victim will sometimes turn on you when you're wrestling her violent husband/boyfriend/whatever to cuff him. Things are not always as they appear.

If I were to lose my father in such an incident, it would console the hell out of me to know he was a "'decent man."' It would mean everything to me as a son, forever; more than any loss of his income or property.

Yea, right. You talk the talk, hope you never have to walk it. I'd rather have my Dad than have to bury him prematurely. Guess I'm just selfish in that way.

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Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

Not too long ago, a guy ran over some people at Ohio State, then started trying to kill people with a knife.

How do you be "aware of" and "avoid" THAT?

That may have happened at a CPZ, but in Europe such things happen in places which here wouldn't be.

You don't choose your assailant's tactics. You just choose your [hopefully planned] response to them.

The world has changed.

The threat has changed.

If we are talking breaking up a domestic dispute between husband and wife, boyfriend and girlfriend, I will mind my own business. If and when that dispute turns to him beating her face to a pulp or using a weapon on the victim or if it's a thug attacking a helpless person, yes, it's time to step in and help. I am amazed at how many people can come up with an excuse for not helping someone in desperate need. Oh well, I guess that's the world we live in today, hurray for me and to heck with you. If someone's life is in danger and we could have prevented it and did nothing, could you live with that on your conscience? I guess some of you evidently could. Each to their own.

It's not an excuse, it's reality.
1. Being married, my wife comes first. I have to be alive/not in jail/not in the hospital to take care of her.
2. My parents are in their 80's and I care for them when needed.
3. I have a ccw for 1 & 2 and myself.

Within my limits I will help others. I will not risk death/great bodily harm for a stranger. I'm more than happy to be a good witness. I won't necessarily intervene if I don't believe I have the advantage.

Would I want my loved one to go thru this? Not at all.
Would I BLAME someone for not intervening? Nope, not in the least.

I see the following as an analogy. Men were working in a confined space. While in the confined space one man falls out unconscious and dies. His friend goes in to rescue him and falls out unconscious and dies. A total of three men died that day. Lack of proper procedure, tunnel vision and a blind sense of duty to their friends helped to cause two unnecessary deaths. Instead of one widow and fatherless children there are now three.
Whether internally (heart/conscious) or externally we all will answer for our actions. I'm not going to sit here and say I will help, when I won't, regardless of what any internet commando thinks or says about me. I'm selfish, I value my families life and my life over a strangers. I wrote a check (my life) to this country a long time ago that no one choose to cash. I now use those funds for my family.

I post the following as food for thought.
The Thinking Gunfighter: The Issue of Intervention

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Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

If you hear/see a car driving toward you or your group, step left . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

^^ I did indeed chuckle heartily.

I suppose I could also be worried about someone flying a plane into the building I'm in. Or necrotizing fasciitis. Or a case of mistaken identity by way of a mob hitman.

Mostly I just keep an eye out for loony toons. It's worked well thus far.

Not all fisticuffs are domestic in nature.......Sometimes it's just a brawl.

But, once upon a time,
I was stuck in traffic on a busy highway in FL not too long ago, a young man and woman in the lit'l sedan in front of me where obviously having a rather heated argument. At the next red light, he back-hands her in the mouth, she in turn grabs him by a handful of his long locks and way-lays him with a flurry of right-crosses....

Light turns green, I toot my truck horn and we all travel down the road to the next red light. Repeat, he back-hands her and she grabs another hand full of his hair, pulls him in close and deliveries another round of lightin' bantam weight punches. Light changes to green, blow truck horn and we all are rolling again.

Well, I decide it's time for me to intervene, I get the chance to pull up in the left lane beside the lovin couple and roll my passenger window down and yell at the young man driving, "Take that **** off'n the road before she knocks your *** out!" At that, they turn right into a parking lot and continue their mating ritual....


.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

How come the people in France and Germany didn't do that?

Why didn't the people at Ohio State?

Do you have some way of predicting which car... or semi is going to veer onto the sidewalk where you are?

If I avoided all cars driving close to me, I'd have to live in a hollow in the Metroparks... or in the middle of Rocky River... the body of water, not the town.

I was once driving west on Lorain Rd. near West Blvd. in Cleveland when I saw one guy cold cock another guy and leave him lying in the street.

A block or two away, I saw a couple of Cleveland cops parked on the street. I stopped and informed them of what I'd just seen. They made it VERY clear that they were neither interested nor concerned and that I was wasting their time.

Some times they don't want you to be a "good witness". That was the end of my reporting things that don't directly involve me to the Cleveland PD.

Despite the hype, common sense isn't all that common . . .

(Edit: Millions of people do it every day. When they don't, it makes the national news)

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Are you saying that NONE of the victims had "common sense"?

How about the British bandsman Lee Rigby who was run over and beheaded? Did he also lack "common sense"?

If someone is able to run you over from behind, is that also a sign that you lack "common sense"?

Do you not recognize sarcasm?

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Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

Not me, my luck, they would be anti gun liberals, and sue me. My gun is for MY protection, i'll call 911 and be gone.

I would only intervene to the level that I would if I was unarmed. I'm not going to pull out a gun. Only if I thought myself or my family were in danger for their lives am I going to use my concealed weapon.