Would you intervene or step back and call 911 then wait for the cavalry to arrive?

Customer shoots store attacker in Holland | WOODTV.com

__________________
You're shy a few manners.

A man beating up a woman, yes I would.
Two men fighting and I don't know them, may the best man win.

It's probably a good thing the woman has bruises on her face and hopefully also a video camera in the store. Always a chance she tells the LEO's the guy with the gun attacked her boyfriend for no reason.

An altercation between adults, without seeing a deadly weapon used. I'm just calling 911.

Yes. But only on my terms. Ask any cop how dangerous it can be.

To blindly intervene is foolish.

__________________
Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Yes there is a video. Apparently it confirms the armed vet's story.

The assailant had a long RAP sheet, not to mention outstanding warrants, but with today's courts he may be back on the street as soon as he gets out of the hospital. Hope the vet gets his gun back before then.

__________________
You're shy a few manners.

Ask your self what you would want someone to do if that was your wife or daughter being beaten down.
Seeing how police response time at best is several minutes, that's a lot of physical damage that would be inflicted on an innocent person before it is stopped. Of course I would jump in.

It doesn't take any effort to say "hey... stop doing that". At that point its up to the BG. If he stops.. great. If he turns on me.. he made a bad decision.
This whole incident, over a girlfriend? I do not understand. Even when I was young, and dumb, and full of xxx. I would not have risked anything for a girlfriend.

I'm too old to fight and not a cop. If no weapon present and I don't feel threatened, call 911. Sorry, that is the law.

__________________
Just a shooter

This pretty much sums it up.

I have little use for macho types who see their CCW as a license to play hero, but there is such a thing as basic human decency. A fight is one thing; a guy assaulting a woman clerk is quite another, and if the difference is obvious, of course I'd try to intervene. What are you going to do, call 911 and then stand outside and watch through the window as the guy beats her to a pulp? Is it risky to go in and tell him to stop? Sure, but so is crossing the street; you could get hit by a dump truck.

Life is dark and full of horrors, and you can come up with wonderful excuses and rationalizations why it may not be prudent to go in. But I think that vet just knew what it means to be a good citizen.

The location appears to be a convenience store.

I wasn't there and am not about to second-guess the decision of the CPL holder. However, if the victim stated she was clearly in fear of losing her life it certainly supports his decision to intervene. In other situations (or locations) I could see how things could go very wrong for the good Samaritan, legally or physically.

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Intervening in a domestic dispute is not a great idea. You may find yourself attacked by the apparent "victim . . . "

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

That often happens in law enforcement and I'm sure most cops have a story about that, I know I do. With only the information in the article to go by I think the good Samaritan will be ok, however.

__________________
Join the NRA today

While that is correct from an LEO point of view, it appears irrelevant here discussing the Good Samaritan's actions. Given the frequency of convenience store robberies, if he looked into the store and saw the clerk bring assaulted by the guy, a "domestic dispute" would be fairly low on the list of likely scenarios.

I would think as he walked up and saw the fight he would more likely think a possible robbery was occur rather then something else unless he knew the other two people involved ..

I'm not a big macho man but there are certain times in your life when you need to do what is right .. it would be very hard for me to stand and watch a women being beaten by a man .. if it was my wife I would hope someone would intervene and help her !!

A while back a Legal concealed carry guy shot a dude in a Walmart.
This guy jumped over the deli counter and started stabbing his estranged wife.
The CC guy pulled his piece, yelled warnings to stop the stabbing and then shot.
There were several third party non involved witnesses.
They all told the police the same thing- that if the stabber had not been shot when he was he would have killed the woman.

__________________
NRA LIFE MEMBER

Always watch your 6 when thinking about playing hero or doing some other foolish half thought out thing.

Get your back to the nearest wall and then dial 911

__________________
NEVER GIVE UP YOUR GUN

Between two males, yeah. Between a male and female.......if you call 911, by the time police arrive, it will be to late.

What if the person being assaulted was you when you were unable to protect yourself for what ever reason? Would you just want us to call 911?

I intervened once when I was leaving a meeting and heard what sounded like someone hitting the ground hard in the parking lot . I then saw a very large thug dressed like a pimp out of central casting beating a woman dressed like a hooker. He had a flashy custom Cadillac parked there. I confronted him and told him to leave the woman alone whereupon she started screaming at me to leave him alone. If it came to it she would have been a witness for him not me. I was unarmed at the time.

__________________
I like Ike.

Well, let's see here........


"One of the customers left the store and called 911. But before officers arrived, a customer who lives nearby stepped in.
Officers said when the customer tried to intervene, the suspect attacked him. The customer told police the suspect tried to grab his gun – that’s when he shot the attacker twice."




It's always a stickety wickety situation,


If I were a regular customer and kinda knew the female employee at the 'one stop kwik sack'
and witnessed her being attacked and did not raise a finger to stop it....What the hell kinda man would I be?




.

__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Different scenario but tonight my wife and I were picking up some dinner to bring home from town. As I pull into the parking area she sees what she thinks are multiple young adults beating someone on the ground.

I asked her for the cell phone and told her to stay in the vehicle. My intention was to tell them I was calling 911 and break it up.

As it turned out, when I got close enough I saw that the "victims" on the ground were youngsters being "preyed upon" by some older young adults and it was all in jest (from what I could see).

I closed the phone, turned and walked back to the 4Runner. I was armed. Nobody was hurt.

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

Down here in the South, a real man would never hit a woman, unless she starts it.

__________________
Just a shooter

Excerpt from an article by Evan Marshall:
The Thinking Gunfighter: The Issue of Intervention

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk

__________________
Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

I'm not a cop. But many years ago I intervened. A guy was beating the hell out of his girl in a night club where I worked. I grabbed him from behind. We struggled but I was much stronger. I picked him up off the floor. As I turned around and yelled for someone to call the cops, his "girl" hit me in the back of head with her purse several times. Great! Now I had two people to keep an eye on.

That cured me. I'll help. But only on my terms.

And for the record, and I understand anything can happen anywhere, but I don't put my wife in the position of having to deal with such events. If she needs to get something from the store etc.... I go or we go together.

__________________
Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

While I certainly understand his thinking, could a decent man live with himself if he just stood there and watched hoping for the cops to get there in time? I think not.

I would rather take my chances in court than watch someone die.

__________________
Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

It is a personal decision anyone that chooses to or not to get involved beyond using a cell phone and being a good witness will have to make.

What is a "decent man"? Is it one that is willing to risk his/her life for another, while at the same time potentially depriving their family of themselves and their income?

A spouse and children standing over a casket won't be consoled knowing he/she was a "decent man".

This conversation has so many facets to it that I don't see a black and white answer to it.

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk

__________________
Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

I have a friend who was unlucky enough to be in a Burger King in Miami when it was being robbed. He drew his weapon and ordered the robber to drop his weapon. The robber promptly turned around and shot a large portion of my friend's *** off.

My friend ended up killing the robber (he gets to live with that for the rest of his life) my friend also ended up with 10's (if not hundreds) of thousands in medical bills and the loss of his former career because he was physically unable to do it any more.

BK disavowed his actions and did nothing to assist him with the medical bills

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

Edmund Burke

__________________
Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

"A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire 

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk

__________________
Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

I agree. It depends on the circumstances.

Sometimes, you'll get nothing but trouble for intervening. Other times, it'll pay off. It depends.


---------------

Not being there and sitting behind a computer right now it's easy to say anything. Having seen how ugly, violent and the potential for death plays into domestic cases when uniform officers intervene, my choices change as a civilian. IMO, verbal commands are a good first choice (hey *******, knock that **** off), but those are mostly ineffective when a crazed person is in fight mode. My vote is dial 911. If it appears to be a life or death situation, plan B should be used. Each one of us has a different plan B.

Couple things.

(1) You don't know the whole story.

(2) If there's no deadly threat, why intervene?

(3) You are primarily responsible for yourself and your family. Everybody else is expendable.

(4) The battered wife/girlfriend has a funny habit of turning on the Good Samaritan/cops. Either she turns violent, or you wind up in a situation where two people are testifying you attacked them for no reason.

Agreed. That's why I won't blindly intervene but will do so under my terms.

__________________
Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

A nice slogan. But too bad that, historically speaking, lots of people have stood by and done nothing about evil. President Harry Truman watching China turn communist and then murder 50 million people comes to mind. Guess nobody noticed Chairman Mao coming to power...oops...


---------------

I think I would have had to act in the situation, as described.

Knowing that the police had been called and that the average response time is about 6-7 minutes, if this woman was being beaten as described, I could not live with myself if I stood by and watched...for 7minutes.

__________________
Stay protected my friends.

Well, why would you stay? My rule is that if the incident is not endangering me or mine, I'm out . . .

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Can't say, that would ever be my rule.

It doesn't have to be . . .

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

About 15 years ago an old man sitting on a bench down town is attacked and beaten by a 18 year old and 2 around 16.
People watched and did nothing but call 911.
The old man had a broken jaw, cracked eye socket and internal body damage.
Cops caught the 3 a few blocks away 20 minutes later.
They stated that he had called them the "N" word.
He spent the next 3 months in the hospital and died.
The DA said he could not charge any of them with any other charges of homicide since so much time had past.
6 months for assault for the 18 year old and some Juvenal time for the other two....

Wonder how the people who just watched and just called 911 felt.
Oh well, he was old and would have died sometime anyway...

__________________
Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

They felt the same as they did at the time of the beating of that old man. Nothing!

A sad story to be sure. I wonder how my wife and kids would have felt if I had intervened and lost, when it was not my job to do so, given that I am the sole provider for the family, and my financial planning has failed to include "Good Samaritan" as a cause of death or incapacitating injury . . .

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Sorry buddy. But I don't believe that for a minute. After helping people all of your adult life, it's something that you just don't turn off.

I think you would help. Very carefully.

I don't think my wife would approve much if I just stood there. After she was safe of course.

__________________
Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Please post a link to the news article, I don't believe they couldn't be charged with murder IF what they did was the cause of his death. Murder has no statue of limitations AFAIK.

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk

__________________
Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

Six years I go, I collided with a deer on a motorcycle at 65 mph. I was thrown over the windshield. I was conscious on the side of the road, 50 yards past the collusion. I know that three vehicles passed without stopping. They may have called 911, I don't know. I thought perhaps I was too far off the side of the road, for anyone to see me. Turns out I was only five feet off the side.

Some people just don't want to get involved, if it looks potentially deadly. Happily, for me, a woman did stop. If she hadn't, I would have died. My left lung had already shut down from internal bleeding/fluids, and my right lung would have done the same. It's good that some people will still get involved, even if it's not their personal danger.

You are making a faulty comparison, LAA. Helping an injured motorist carries with it relatively little risk--namely, being struck by a vehicle (low chance), and being ambushed (low probability in most areas). Both can be mitigated.

Intervening in a physical altercation you're not involved in, especially between two related adults, carries with it rather significant risks and dangers.

Whatever the course of action selected, it demands a very large amount of caution. You are, after all, breaking a cardinal rule of self-defense by voluntarily engaging in an altercation.

"You can't believe everything you read on the Internet"

Congressman David Crockett (D) Tennessee

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

I thought it was Abraham Lincoln that said that!?!

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk

__________________
Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

I'm highly aware of the pitfalls, and appropriate actions. I don't need a lecture. On the other hand, it's not my mentality, to just always walk away. For some around here, that seems to be the only option.

The only domestic violence incident I've ever been involved in as a security guard was a couple who's argument was just starting to get physicAL in the parking garage I worked in.

My partner and I separated them and asked the woman if she wanted us to call the police. She said she wanted us to mind our business and leave her and her man alone. My partner and I excused ourselves and continued our rounds.

By the time we got to the top level we couple see the couple in the next block and the guy was beating the hell out of the woman. We called the police who showed up while we were on the phone. A half hour or so later the cops stopped by the garage and informed us the woman refused to press charges.

I have no problem calling the cops but I'm not getting into someone else's fight

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

Neither "personal rules" not witty sayings ultimately mean anything in a situation like this. You can't pre-package your response, simply because most of us won't ever run into such a situation, let alone often enough to learn the best response. Let's set aside the "domestic violence and cops" sideline here since there is no indication whatsoever that this was known to the intervening Good Samaritan.

So it comes down to a term that hasn't been mentioned here often enough: GOOD JUDGMENT.

Nobody would expect you to (or for that matter want you) to insert yourself into a situation that is obviously too big for you: guns already out, multiple assailants, ambush potential, unclear good and bad sides etc., just like no one would expect you to jump in after a drowning victim if you can't swim.

But if the situation appears to require quick action and in your judgment is controllable with acceptable risk, I believe there is a moral obligation to act. At what point that obligation kicks in depends on your judgment, based on your abilities. That point may be quite different for, say, a highly trained soldier, compared to a retired accountant, but it exists for everybody.

I would expect a military vet to have developed better judgment than most civilians in that respect, and that certainly seems to apply here. He intervened, and when the bad guy escalated, the vet was prepared to respond. I dare speculate that if he had looked in and seen the bad guy hold up the place with a shotgun, he would NOT have walked in, but thought of something else. Judgment call.

If I witness through a window, a punch thrown at a clerk , I'm calling 911. Unless the clerk is my family, then I'd probably turn into "Super-Grandma". Otherwise, I'm just a sick old woman with a gun, and might make the situation worse than it otherwise might be, if I enter the store.

A persons got to know her limitations, but I'm not suggesting what you or anyone else should do.