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Old 02-14-2017, 01:16 PM
Naphtali Naphtali is offline
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Just before I deleted it, I viewed an old video advertisement for an Israeli-manufactured "improved" Browning Hi-Power pistol. The demonstrators were highly skilled and quickly accurate with the pistol. And then I realized the demonstration shooting included a feature of usage that was bizarre.

Every shooter cycled the slide of his pistol before shooting. In my mind that means one-armed shooters and shooters with "bad" or weak hands have a strong likelihood of doing no better than a tie were that person confronted by an unexpected attack - now prevalent in Israel. In an article about Utah's current legislative bill for Constitutional Carry, reference was made to "Israeli Carry," meaning what I observed in the advertisement video.

The explanation for the carry mode by Israeli military makes at least some sense in a silly way. Are Israeli civilians with handgun licenses (I don't know whether there is an additional license needed to carry concealed.) also required to carry their semiautomatic pistols with chamber empty? Although I do not know whether civilians can carry revolvers and derringers. If they can, how are these people allowed to carry - that is, must revolvers and derringers also be "empty" for that all-important emergency first shot?

Last edited by Naphtali; 02-15-2017 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 02-14-2017, 01:43 PM
mpreusse13 mpreusse13 is offline
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I just saw something about this the other day an I believe it has nothing to do with civilians but how the military is trained to carry and present their weapon.

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Old 02-14-2017, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by mpreusse13 View Post
I just saw something about this the other day an I believe it has nothing to do with civilians but how the military is trained to carry and present their weapon.
I don't have an answer to the OP's question regarding civilian carry, but one thing to keep in mind is that Israeli citizens have (I believe) 2 years of mandatory military service. I don't know how much pistol training factors into that, if at all, but that could have some influence on how licensed civilians carry their guns. If they carried pistols with the chamber empty while serving in the military, then they'll probably carry the same way as civilians. Just a guess, though.
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:12 PM
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That's correct - it is not a legal requirement, but rather an offshoot of military training. Given two years of mandatory active military service and continuing reserve service requirements, military training has a big impact on how things are done in Israel.

In a larger context, carrying a pistol hammer down on an empty chamber was the norm for militaries to train their troops to carry a single action semi-auto like the 1911 or the Browning Hi Power with the hammer down on an empty chamber (Condition 3). Most militaries and police departments in Europe also carried DA pistols like the Walther PP in the same fashion.

The rationale was that the shooter would draw the weapon and then rack the slide to chamber a round, making the weapon loaded, cocked and ready to fire (Condition 0).

The safety (or decocking lever) came into play once the shooting was done, rendering the weapon safe with, for a single action, hammer cocked, safety on and chamber loaded (Condition 1), or for a DA pistol, hammer down on a loaded chamber, until the circumstances allowed a return to the normal carry condition.

It's important to remember that militaries issue pistols primarily to support troops who carry them, but who have only very infrequent need to use them. In that regard carrying on a empty chamber and racking the slide to cock and load makes a great deal of sense.

Some folks advocate for carrying a Hi Power or 1911 with the hammer down on a loaded chamber (Condition 2). However there is significant disadvantage to this in that it requires fine motor skills to cock the hammer and under extreme stress those fine motor skills will be seriously degraded. It's just as fast to rack the slide to cock the pistol and chamber a round, and it's done with gross motor movements that are more reliable under extreme stress.

Condition 3 carry is still common in Europe and in many militaries and police departments outside the US. It makes a great deal of sense for a Glock as well, all things considered.

For civilians here in the US, carrying a single action pistol in Condition 1 more common, and was preferred by most LEOs when single action semi-autos were common duty weapons.

Last edited by BB57; 02-14-2017 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 02-14-2017, 03:08 PM
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Ugh. This again. Couple things.

(1) The Israelis first adopted the hammer-down carry method because of the limitations of their equipment. Remember, the Israelis got dumped into unfriendly country, and weren't given much help. They pretty much took whatever arms they could get. That meant that their pistols weren't standardized. Literally whatever junk got donated to them.

How do you train a bunch of guys to carry a bunch of non-standardized semiautomatic pistols, in various states of working order, of virtually all mechanisms and actions? Hammer down on an empty chamber. It allows for safe carry of any handgun, no matter the design, even if it's some piece of trash with half a hammer hook and a busted thumb safety.

---

(2) The most popular way for a Palestinian troublemaker to get a hold of a weapon is to steal it from an Israeli on the street. Remember, the Israelis also have to share sidewalks with their enemies.

What's the first thing said Palestinian does with his new sidearm? He shoots the guy that he stole it off of.

Carrying with a hammer down on an empty chamber makes drawing and firing take longer for both sides. Hence, you've got more time to react to having your gun snatched.

American police have done the same thing in different ways. On guns with magazine disconnects, popping the mag catch either during a struggle for the gun, or when transporting prisoners, was standard training for a while.

Now, combine #1 with #2, and you have your answer as for why.

All that said, for the competent American CCW carrier, empty chambers make no bloody sense whatsoever.
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Old 02-14-2017, 03:24 PM
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I agree with Wise A. My pistols are mostly DA/SA, and that is what we were trained on. I always carry with a round in the chamber, and the safety off. It is as safe as a revolver. I have been told that in WWII, the single action .45's were carried with an empty chamber, and soldiers racked a round in the chamber when they need to use them. I would carry a single action pistol like that, they can be very dangerous carried cocked and locked.
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Old 02-14-2017, 03:56 PM
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My Dad was a Combat Photographer in the Pacific during WWII. He told me many times he carried his .45 cocked and locked. I carry my Colt Government Model the same way.
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Old 02-14-2017, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by KSDeputy View Post
I would carry a single action pistol like that, they can be very dangerous carried cocked and locked.
Nonsense. There are only dangerous men.
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Old 02-14-2017, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by BB57 View Post
Condition 3 carry is still common in Europe and in many militaries and police departments outside the US. It makes a great deal of sense for a Glock as well, all things considered.

For civilians here in the US, carrying a single action pistol in Condition 1 more common, and was preferred by most LEOs when single action semi-autos were common duty weapons.
Excellent overall post, BB57, but I will have to disagree with you on Condition 3 carry for the Glock. (But to each his own. No need to argue the matter further on this forum, imho.)

I did carry a Gov't Model (Series 70) cocked and locked prior to carrying Glocks on and off duty beginning in 1988.
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Old 02-14-2017, 07:59 PM
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I trained with some Israeli military guys many moons ago for a short while. They carry hammer down, and chamber empty. As they bring the weapon into firing position they chambered and cocked the pistol. Let me tell you these guys were fast and to the point. Their training was spot on. Now if they only had one arm, that would change things, but from where I was standing, their method of carry didn't slow them down at all.
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Old 02-14-2017, 08:06 PM
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First, let me note because I like to vent about these things that the 1911 is designed to be carried cocked and locked - but why anyone carries a 1911 in the 21st century is a mystery to me and I keep telling people that even though there are millions of y'all out there. YMMV of course!

Second, this is true:

Quote:
I have been told that in WWII, the single action .45's were carried with an empty chamber, and soldiers racked a round in the chamber when they need to use them.
I have seen WW2 combat footage and it is very clear in some of those films that the GIs involved in the fighting are drawing their 1911s from their holsters and racking the slides. I cannot say if they all did that but it was not at all uncommon, despite the fact that 1911s were designed for cocked and locked carry.

A traditional double action pistol or a striker fired pistol should be carried with a round in the chamber and the hammer down. That is how they are designed to be carried.

Third, as to Israelis, the following is more or less correct:

Quote:
The Israelis first adopted the hammer-down carry method because of the limitations of their equipment. Remember, the Israelis got dumped into unfriendly country, and weren't given much help. They pretty much took whatever arms they could get. That meant that their pistols weren't standardized. Literally whatever junk got donated to them.

How do you train a bunch of guys to carry a bunch of non-standardized semiautomatic pistols, in various states of working order, of virtually all mechanisms and actions? Hammer down on an empty chamber. It allows for safe carry of any handgun, no matter the design, even if it's some piece of trash with half a hammer hook and a busted thumb safety.
The additional feature is that because the Israelis had so many NON-STANDARDIZED handguns it wasn't just a safety issue it was a training issue - you can train EVERYONE to carry their pistols hammer down on an empty chamber, racking it when the pistol is drawn for use. Everyone can do that the exact same way. And so, after the modernization and standardization of handguns in the IDF, the Israelis maintained that level of training. Hammer down, chamber empty. It works for them. Moreover, if you watch them in combat drills the IDF soldiers can draw, rack, and commence firing (accurately) as fast if not faster than their counterparts in other armies using standard double action shooting techniques. They really are that good.

Fourth, as to Israelis, I am not sure if this was a joke or based on some knowledge:

Quote:
The most popular way for a Palestinian troublemaker to get a hold of a weapon is to steal it from an Israeli on the street. Remember, the Israelis also have to share sidewalks with their enemies.

What's the first thing said Palestinian does with his new sidearm? He shoots the guy that he stole it off of.
Israel has VERY strict gun control. Remember, the founders of the State of Israel were European Socialists with no general exposure to civilian firearms ownership. There is no right to keep and bear arms in Israel. In order to obtain a handgun permit you WILL have to have been in their armed forces, and then deal with whatever rigorous administrative hurdles currently in place. Obtaining a handgun license in Israel is VERY difficult. And you can only have one gun, as I recall. Over 21, pass mental and physical tests, and demonstrate a need to have one. They reduced some of that standard in 2015 due to the attacks that were ongoing but they didn't reduce it much. The chances of a Palestinian stealing a handgun from an Israeli is likely nil - that's why I took the above as a humorous remark.

You will see civilians in the streets carrying rifles, generally ARs, sometimes UZIs, here and there a Tavor, or a Galil, and of course the ever present soldiers will be carrying weapons. Not counting military members or the police you will rarely see a handgun - if you do, it is probably an off duty military member, off duty LEO, or a West Bank settler. Don't expect to see it - it's simply not the same mind set as we have here in the world of the Second Amendment.
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Old 02-14-2017, 10:03 PM
Naphtali Naphtali is offline
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Originally Posted by apollo99 View Post
I trained with some Israeli military guys many moons ago for a short while. They carry hammer down, and chamber empty. As they bring the weapon into firing position they chambered and cocked the pistol. Let me tell you these guys were fast and to the point. Their training was spot on. Now if they only had one arm, that would change things, but from where I was standing, their method of carry didn't slow them down at all.
When I mentioned "one-armed," I did not necessarily mean a one-armed person. My thinking was one arm might be injured or being grabbed or restrained by the "problem person." Or, perhaps, one hand is fending off a knife blade or billy club, or nunchuck. It's challenging to cycle a slide one-handed.
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Old 02-14-2017, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
Israel has VERY strict gun control. Remember, the founders of the State of Israel were European Socialists with no general exposure to civilian firearms ownership. There is no right to keep and bear arms in Israel. In order to obtain a handgun permit you WILL have to have been in their armed forces, and then deal with whatever rigorous administrative hurdles currently in place. Obtaining a handgun license in Israel is VERY difficult. And you can only have one gun, as I recall. Over 21, pass mental and physical tests, and demonstrate a need to have one. They reduced some of that standard in 2015 due to the attacks that were ongoing but they didn't reduce it much.The chances of a Palestinian stealing a handgun from an Israeli is likely nil - that's why I took the above as a humorous remark.

You will see civilians in the streets carrying rifles, generally ARs, sometimes UZIs, here and there a Tavor, or a Galil, and of course the ever present soldiers will be carrying weapons. Not counting military members or the police you will rarely see a handgun - if you do, it is probably an off duty military member, off duty LEO, or a West Bank settler. Don't expect to see it - it's simply not the same mind set as we have here in the world of the Second Amendment.
First three results on google.

Israeli security guard shoots Palestinian trying stealing gun - Xinhua | English.news.cn

Bedouin steals gun from security guard in nationalistically motivated attack | JerusalemOnline

Beersheba man nabbed for attacking security guard, stealing gun | The Times of Israel

Here are a couple more:

Israeli Man Uses Martial Arts Weapon to Overpower Palestinian Terrorist TheBlaze

Palestinian shot trying to steal guard's weapon - Israel - Jerusalem Post

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Pal...rivlary-399468

And oh hey, here's a video.


Unfortunately, that's all I could find in 5 minutes.

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Old 02-14-2017, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Naphtali View Post
When I mentioned "one-armed," I did not necessarily mean a one-armed person. My thinking was one arm might be injured or being grabbed or restrained by the "problem person." Or, perhaps, one hand is fending off a knife blade or billy club, or nunchuck. It's challenging to cycle a slide one-handed.
Precisely why empty-chambering is such a horrendously bad idea. There was actually a pretty good article in The Blue Press (sorry, can't remember the month), which described an incident in which a guy died precisely because his chamber was empty. He was holding a door closed against his pistol-armed assailant, and lost control when he tried to chamber a round. He was pushed back into the room, and the attacker shot him dead.
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Old 02-15-2017, 12:09 AM
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Israel has VERY strict gun control. Remember, the founders of the State of Israel were European Socialists with no general exposure to civilian firearms ownership. There is no right to keep and bear arms in Israel. In order to obtain a handgun permit you WILL have to have been in their armed forces, and then deal with whatever rigorous administrative hurdles currently in place. Obtaining a handgun license in Israel is VERY difficult. And you can only have one gun, as I recall. Over 21, pass mental and physical tests, and demonstrate a need to have one. They reduced some of that standard in 2015 due to the attacks that were ongoing but they didn't reduce it much. The chances of a Palestinian stealing a handgun from an Israeli is likely nil - that's why I took the above as a humorous remark.

Quote:You will see civilians in the streets carrying rifles, generally ARs, sometimes UZIs, here and there a Tavor, or a Galil, and of course the ever present soldiers will be carrying weapons. Not counting military members or the police you will rarely see a handgun - if you do, it is probably an off duty military member, off duty LEO, or a West Bank settler. Don't expect to see it - it's simply not the same mind set as we have here in the world of the Second Amendment.
Unquote.
When I was there about thirty years ago,some civilians,working as volunteer guards where crowds might be,such as a movie theatre, had M1 carbines.
In the last year,a good friend who lives there,thought about getting a handgun.With being a reserve officer possessing the rank of captain(it's captain or higher),it would not have been too difficult.However with grandkids in the house and an anti-gun wife,he decided not to pursue it.

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Old 02-15-2017, 12:29 AM
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Talk about one handed reloads, I've been trying to find some video on it, I've seen guys using their boot heels or other parts of their bodies. If any one has a link to the heel reload, I would like to take a look at it.
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Old 02-15-2017, 12:41 AM
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It's a unicorn. Really--is anybody going to do any trick stuff like that in a life-or-death struggle?

Every reputable source I've ever read repeats the same thing over and over again: simple, gross movements. No fine motor control.
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Old 02-15-2017, 09:30 AM
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I saw an older officer (not Israeli) open his duty revolver, a 4 inch S&W Model 15 Combat Masterpiece, one-handed, eject the empties, and shove the barrel into his waistband with the cylinder open. He then reloaded it with his 2x2x2 ammo pouch, closed the cylinder, and was ready to rock. He had obviously practiced this because it was fast!

His left hand was busy holding his bobbed-hammer S&W Model 12 Airweight pocket gun on two miscreants while a third was on the ground screaming some.
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:12 AM
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I've seen Russian soldier load and unload his Makarov one handed without ever touching a piece of his clothing or any other form of help. It's cool but not practical and not done outside of showing off

The Israeli civilians you see with ARs, Uzis, Tavors walking around are actually soldiers in civilian clothes. They are required to carry at all times so you'll see them with rifles at coffee shops, restaurants, busses, even at the beach

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Old 02-15-2017, 10:32 AM
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Excellent overall post, BB57, but I will have to disagree with you on Condition 3 carry for the Glock. (But to each his own. No need to argue the matter further on this forum, imho.)

I did carry a Gov't Model (Series 70) cocked and locked prior to carrying Glocks on and off duty beginning in 1988.
I have no objection to people properly carrying a Glock with a Loaded chamber, but the devil is in the details, and those details don't get discussed enough.

The Glock was designed to Austrian military specs that required one hand operation, so it was indeed intended to be carried with a round in the chamber. However, it was also intended to be carried in an outside the waist band duty holster that provided ample protection for the trigger and less chance of an intrusion into the trigger guard when re-holstering.

However, it also had the side benefit of working well for European agencies that still preferred to carry pistols with an unloaded chamber, which didn't hurt potential sales.

I certainly have no objection to a Glock being carried with a round in the chamber, provided it's properly carried in a holster that fully encloses and protects the trigger.

With all handguns, pistol, revolver, single action, double action, striker fired, etc, the holster is the first level "safety". With a Glock, it's arguably a little more important as once it's out of the holster, all of the safeties are tied to the trigger and any trigger contact has the potential to de-activate all the safeties.

Where I get critical of some Glock users is when I start seeing Glocks used in concealed carry with poorly thought out carry methods like a belt clip on the slide or a Versa Carry style holster that does not adequately protect the trigger.

One of the common denominators in "Glock leg" accidents is when the shooter/victim is carrying a Glock in an IWB holster where a wad of shirt, a jacket drawstring or other foreign object finds it's way into the holster. That's a much more significant problem with an IWB holster than it is with a duty holster, particularly with many of the current duty holsters that sit fairly far out from the waist.

Historically it's also not unheard of for a police officer under extreme stress after a shoot to try to re-holster his pistol with his finger still in the trigger guard. The combination of:

A) a lack of any other trained action such as de-cocking or applying the manual safety; and/or
B) the comparatively short and light trigger pull relative to a DA revolver or DA semi-auto pistol; and/or
C) the lack of a hammer on a striker fired pistol than could otherwise be felt coming back when re-holstering with a trigger guard intrusion;

makes an AD slightly more likely with a Glock than with a traditional DA revolver, DA semi-auto, or a 1911 style single action semi-auto.

Thus, while there is less training required in the actual operation of the pistol, compared to a 1911, there is an increased need for training the shooter how to safely holster and carry a Glock - a point that is often lost on armed citizens who decide they want to carry a Glock.

As noted above, with an OWB duty holster, an AD that occurs in a re-holstering situation is less likely to hit the shooter in the leg or foot In contrast, with an IWB holster any AD with a Glock while re-holstering is very likely to hit the leg. For that reason I advise concealed carry permit holders who want to carry a Glock in an IWB holster to use a holster that:

1) fully encloses and protects the trigger;
2) has a reinforced mouth that will not fold over and potentially intrude into the trigger guard; and
3) has a belt clip that allows the holster to be removed, so that the pistol can be re-holstered with the pistol out in front of the shooter where he can visually confirm nothing is obstructing the trigger, and then be inserted back into the waist band as a unit with the trigger fully protected.

If a CCW permit holder with a Glock isn't willing to take this approach, then he or she is better off carrying it with an unloaded chamber and racking the slide during the draw to make it ready to shoot. It's just a matter of risk management - the odds of an armed citizen ever actually needing a handgun for self defense are extremely low, while holstering the handgun is a daily event, and the frequency of that event combined with poor holster choice and/or poor technique creates a significant risk.

In short, as noted above, in the absence of adequate training or standardization, carrying on an empty chamber has some merit, and that applies to the Glock as much as any other handgun type.

Last edited by BB57; 02-15-2017 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 02-15-2017, 11:39 AM
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Default Inconsistent responses and understanding ECQ dynamics.

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Originally Posted by Naphtali View Post
When I mentioned "one-armed," I did not necessarily mean a one-armed person. My thinking was one arm might be injured or being grabbed or restrained by the "problem person." Or, perhaps, one hand is fending off a knife blade or billy club, or nunchuck. It's challenging to cycle a slide one-handed.

Those kinds of scenarios are often put forth as reasons against carrying C3, but very few people using that argument have ever actually trained close-quarters extensively. And if extreme-close quarters is brought up elsewhere, they dismiss it as unnecessary since they will just use situational awareness to avoid or prevent anyone ever getting close to them. If that were true, then there would be no problems with empty chamber carry as they would always have time and distance on their side.

It is relatively difficult to effectively access a weapon in an ECQ scenario. You generally have to initially deal with the attack using unarmed defensive tactics and/or movement. If a knife wielding assailant had ahold of my lapel and was trying to shank me, it would probably not be wise to immediately go for my weapon. I have no interest in mutual slayings.

Carrying with a round in the chamber is substantially better in terms of being prepared to effectively respond to any type of scenario. However, I believe a physically fit individual well trained in ECQ who carries C3 would stand a better chance of successfully defending themselves than a couch potato carrying hot whose training is limited to an NRA class and static range shooting. And if you gave me the choice of having to either carry empty chamber(racking the slide being a gross motor skill) vs carrying a gun with a manual safety like a shield or bodyguard(operating a small safety being a fine motor skill), I would actually probably choose C3.

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Old 02-15-2017, 12:47 PM
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I agree with the above post that the ability to address an extreme close quarter combat situation is important. One of the old (active in the 1970s) former police offers I know attributes a number of the controversies in modern law enforcement to a decreased ability of officers to manage close quarters situations, or to manage threats without using a firearm.

That's partly a reference to an increased militarization of police officers with a consequent lack of emphasis on training officers to de-escalate situations, and partly a reference to a lack of emphasis on effective hand to hand combat skills.

Those other self defense skills should be learned concurrently with learning to use a firearm for self defense.

----

Aside from the need for close quarter skills, there is also a progression of skills that need to be mastered just to handle the weapon before moving on to the more advanced skills:

1) mastery of basic marksmanship and safe gun handling;
2) mastering the ability to draw from concealment and fire accurately and quickly;
3) mastering the ability to draw and fire while moving towards cover, or while getting out of the line of attack of an assailant;

then and only then...

4) mastering the other supporting skills such as shooting with the weak hand, performing a tactical reload, clearing malfunctions, reloading with one hand, using a tactical light, etc.
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Old 02-15-2017, 01:19 PM
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I have no objection to people properly carrying a Glock with a Loaded chamber, but the devil is in the details, and those details don't get discussed enough.

The Glock was designed to Austrian military specs that required one hand operation, so it was indeed intended to be carried with a round in the chamber. However, it was also intended to be carried in an outside the waist band duty holster that provided ample protection for the trigger and less chance of an intrusion into the trigger guard when re-holstering.

However, it also had the side benefit of working well for European agencies that still preferred to carry pistols with an unloaded chamber, which didn't hurt potential sales.

I certainly have no objection to a Glock being carried with a round in the chamber, provided it's properly carried in a holster that fully encloses and protects the trigger.

With all handguns, pistol, revolver, single action, double action, striker fired, etc, the holster is the first level "safety". With a Glock, it's arguably a little more important as once it's out of the holster, all of the safeties are tied to the trigger and any trigger contact has the potential to de-activate all the safeties.

Where I get critical of some Glock users is when I start seeing Glocks used in concealed carry with poorly thought out carry methods like a belt clip on the slide or a Versa Carry style holster that does not adequately protect the trigger.

One of the common denominators in "Glock leg" accidents is when the shooter/victim is carrying a Glock in an IWB holster where a wad of shirt, a jacket drawstring or other foreign object finds it's way into the holster. That's a much more significant problem with an IWB holster than it is with a duty holster, particularly with many of the current duty holsters that sit fairly far out from the waist.

Historically it's also not unheard of for a police officer under extreme stress after a shoot to try to re-holster his pistol with his finger still in the trigger guard. The combination of:

A) a lack of any other trained action such as de-cocking or applying the manual safety; and/or
B) the comparatively short and light trigger pull relative to a DA revolver or DA semi-auto pistol; and/or
C) the lack of a hammer on a striker fired pistol than could otherwise be felt coming back when re-holstering with a trigger guard intrusion;

makes an AD slightly more likely with a Glock than with a traditional DA revolver, DA semi-auto, or a 1911 style single action semi-auto.

Thus, while there is less training required in the actual operation of the pistol, compared to a 1911, there is an increased need for training the shooter how to safely holster and carry a Glock - a point that is often lost on armed citizens who decide they want to carry a Glock.

As noted above, with an OWB duty holster, an AD that occurs in a re-holstering situation is less likely to hit the shooter in the leg or foot In contrast, with an IWB holster any AD with a Glock while re-holstering is very likely to hit the leg. For that reason I advise concealed carry permit holders who want to carry a Glock in an IWB holster to use a holster that:

1) fully encloses and protects the trigger;
2) has a reinforced mouth that will not fold over and potentially intrude into the trigger guard; and
3) has a belt clip that allows the holster to be removed, so that the pistol can be re-holstered with the pistol out in front of the shooter where he can visually confirm nothing is obstructing the trigger, and then be inserted back into the waist band as a unit with the trigger fully protected.

If a CCW permit holder with a Glock isn't willing to take this approach, then he or she is better off carrying it with an unloaded chamber and racking the slide during the draw to make it ready to shoot. It's just a matter of risk management - the odds of an armed citizen ever actually needing a handgun for self defense are extremely low, while holstering the handgun is a daily event, and the frequency of that event combined with poor holster choice and/or poor technique creates a significant risk.

In short, as noted above, in the absence of adequate training or standardization, carrying on an empty chamber has some merit, and that applies to the Glock as much as any other handgun type.
Wow, BB57, that's quite an exhaustive treatise...and again I agree with much of what you have to say and offer on the topic.

As I say, with 28 years of carrying Glocks on and off duty (including SRT) I feel pretty comfortable in the safe administration of this firearm.

That said, despite the safety precautions I employ, I and many others from law enforcement, military and firearms instruction backgrounds have availed ourselves of a newly available striker control device for Glocks that can prevent the types of reholstering accidents you refer to. (I am an ardent proponent of AIWB carry and have been carrying this way for 30 years.)

Please have a look at the following which I trust you will find of interest:

The Gadget: an additional safety device for Glock pistols – Gun Nuts Media

Gadget - a Striker Control Device | Indiegogo

Much more about this device can be found in discussions on pistol-forum.com The creator of the device is the owner of that forum and a nuclear engineer by background.

I have absolutely no financial interest in the device other than having spent my own money to equip my three Glocks with the "gadget" (as it is known colloquially).

Thank you for your efforts to make carrying a concealed firearm safer for those who may profit by your counsel.
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Old 02-15-2017, 02:24 PM
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The gadget is an interesting device. Functionally, it doesn't really have too many downsides except perhaps limiting certain contact shot options, although that is likely insignificant. However, it is still unproven as far as I'm concerned and I don't like being a beta-tester when it comes to potential life saving equipment. YMMV

I have NY triggers on all my carry Glocks and consider them an adequate enough additional safety measure against unintentional discharges. I don't have gadgets on my hammerless revolver nor do I feel they need it.

I wonder if those who opt for a gadget also installed NY triggers, because it could be argued that if someone cannot assuredly safely holster a specific weapon because the trigger pull is too short and light(even in a controlled environment), how can they possibly be expected to be safe with that same weapon once it's drawn in a chaotic, high stress defense scenario.
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Old 02-15-2017, 02:36 PM
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The gadget is an interesting device. Functionally, it doesn't really have too many downsides except perhaps limiting certain contact shot options, although that is likely insignificant. However, it is still unproven as far as I'm concerned and I don't like being a beta-tester when it comes to potential life saving equipment. YMMV

I have NY triggers on all my carry Glocks and consider them an adequate enough additional safety measure against unintentional discharges. I don't have gadgets on my hammerless revolver nor do I feel they need it.

I wonder if those who opt for a gadget also installed NY triggers, because it could be argued that if someone cannot assuredly safely holster a specific weapon because the trigger pull is too short and light(even in a controlled environment), how can they possibly be expected to be safe with that same weapon once it's drawn in a chaotic, high stress defense scenario.
I have NY triggers in two of my three Glocks. Mandated by the agency for issued and personal Glocks back in the 90's sometime. I have no issue with the NY trigger, (that many folks don't like), nor the current 5.5# trigger I have on my Gen4 G17.

I think that the several years of testing the "gadget" on the range with 100's of thousands of rounds as well as in CQB and ECQC scenarios with trainers like SouthNarc and many highly respected others, it's fair to say, in my opinion, that it's out of beta. Especially since there has not been one reported failure of any kind...and if it did fail the gun would function as normal. However, that's up to each individual to decide for themselves.

I know Tom sent a batch back after he found that the fabrication did not meet his (perfectionist) standards.

I like my little 642 for the idea of contact shots. I've never been much for this technique with semi-autos in general. I've considered that the "gadget" could possibly be used to keep the weapon from firing if someone were to be able to wrap their hand around the back of the slide but I think that's a far less likely scenario compared to one having an ND upon reholstering due to an unobserved or self inflicted issue.
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Old 02-15-2017, 04:18 PM
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When I was there about thirty years ago,some civilians,working as volunteer guards where crowds might be,such as a movie theatre, had M1 carbines.
You can still see M-1 carbines in Israel. Carried by security guards on buses and, believe it or not, by the police. Less frequent than before but if you look hard enough one or two will appear.

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In the last year,a good friend who lives there,thought about getting a handgun.With being a reserve officer possessing the rank of captain(it's captain or higher),it would not have been too difficult.However with grandkids in the house and an anti-gun wife,he decided not to pursue it.
He would have obtained his permit fairly easily by Israeli standards.
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Old 02-15-2017, 04:21 PM
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Israeli security guard shoots Palestinian trying stealing gun - Xinhua | English.news.cn

Bedouin steals gun from security guard in nationalistically motivated attack | JerusalemOnline

Beersheba man nabbed for attacking security guard, stealing gun | The Times of Israel

Here are a couple more:

Israeli Man Uses Martial Arts Weapon to Overpower Palestinian Terrorist – TheBlaze

Palestinian shot trying to steal guard's weapon - Israel - Jerusalem Post

Error 404
There is a world of difference between security guards and concealed carry civilians. We were discussing ordinary civilians above. Security guards, civilian or otherwise, would be unsurprising targets for terrorists in Israel.
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:15 PM
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Functionally, what's the difference?

In any case, it seems the bad actors have copped onto what a dumb idea it is, given the the Israelis' standard practices. I mean, just read my little selection of articles--most of those attacks were unsuccessful. If the thinkers and controllers on the other side actually cared about the people they were sending out to die, they'd probably have learned quicker.

Hence the knife attacks.
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Old 02-15-2017, 08:39 PM
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There is a pretty good reason that a DA revolver works for a great number of us....it is either loaded or it isn't.
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Old 02-15-2017, 08:39 PM
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Not uncommon for the guards from the various kibbutz and moshavs to carry long guns rather than handguns. The chamber empty method is mostly reserved for IDF and some police units depending on their mission. Not uncommon for soldiers in civvies "off duty" to have mags out of their rifles-though not always the case.

Not uncommon to see them hitch hiking from posts to home and back.

I know a retired IDF captain and Shin Bet officer that assures me the security service guys all carry chambered (mostly Glock 19s now). He has a permit and carries his pistol (Browning Hi-Power) cocked and locked when out and about. I'll ask if civilians are required to carry chamber empty. He's also said whenever they went out on missions long guns and pistols were carried with rounds chambered.
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Old 02-16-2017, 12:05 AM
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That said, despite the safety precautions I employ, I and many others from law enforcement, military and firearms instruction backgrounds have availed ourselves of a newly available striker control device for Glocks that can prevent the types of reholstering accidents you refer to. (I am an ardent proponent of AIWB carry and have been carrying this way for 30 years.)

Please have a look at the following which I trust you will find of interest:

The Gadget: an additional safety device for Glock pistols – Gun Nuts Media

Gadget - a Striker Control Device | Indiegogo
That's a great little device that potentially creates more or less the same practical advantage as feeling the hammer move back on a hammer equipped DA revolver or pistol when re-holstering.

I'll add that to the potential options list for the shooters I encounter who are interested in conceal carrying a Glock.

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Originally Posted by Mister X View Post

I have NY triggers on all my carry Glocks and consider them an adequate enough additional safety measure against unintentional discharges.
I agree a 12 pound trigger on a Glock goes a long way toward putting back some of the "safety" that was inherent in a DA revolver. The trigger pull is still short, but it's at least heavy enough that a shooter has to be really clueless to not suspect an obstruction might be present when re-holstering.

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Old 02-16-2017, 03:31 AM
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How safe is a gun you can't shoot accurately?

Do nitwits shoot themselves in the feet with Glocks? Sure.

Do hundreds of thousands of police, military, and armed citizens manage to successfully carry a Glock without adding additional ventilation to their shoes and pants?

You betcha.

Hence, I don't see the need for either the Gadget or that God-awful 12-pound trigger.
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Old 02-16-2017, 09:39 AM
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However, I believe a physically fit individual well trained in ECQ who carries C3 would stand a better chance of successfully defending themselves than a couch potato carrying hot whose training is limited to an NRA class and static range shooting.
Sorry, but this is a "Well, duh!" It's also apples and oranges.

"Jimmy Johnson has a better chance of winning a NASCAR race in a poor-handling car than Lady Gaga does in a car prepared for Kyle Busch."

"Well, duh!"
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Old 02-16-2017, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
How safe is a gun you can't shoot accurately?

Do nitwits shoot themselves in the feet with Glocks? Sure.

Do hundreds of thousands of police, military, and armed citizens manage to successfully carry a Glock without adding additional ventilation to their shoes and pants?

You betcha.

Hence, I don't see the need for either the Gadget or that God-awful 12-pound trigger.
It's an option...something for consideration by those who may find it worthwhile.

I'll put my record of carrying Glocks for nigh on 30 years against anyone's for safety and believe me they've been in and out of their holsters countless thousands of times, often under duress.

Aside from mandatory quarterly qualifications with all firearms (issued and personal carry) those of us on SRT had even more stringent training requirements.

The NY Trigger was mandated...not an option. I've learned over many years that it doesn't impede my speed or performance at all. I've compared such with the stock trigger so I'm not bothering to swap them out until I need to replace parts.

All that said, folks with far greater skill than my own and equal or greater experience on the two way range have adopted the "gadget" as an extra layer of insurance.

Is it required? Certainly not. But I've been around some experienced folks who unexpectedly met Mr. Murphy and had a bad (self-inflicted) experience. As the old proverb says: "Pride goes before destruction, and haughtiness before a fall."

I look at it as a safety tool. YMMV. I respect everyone's right to make their own well considered decision.
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Old 02-16-2017, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
How safe is a gun you can't shoot accurately?

Do nitwits shoot themselves in the feet with Glocks? Sure.

Do hundreds of thousands of police, military, and armed citizens manage to successfully carry a Glock without adding additional ventilation to their shoes and pants?

You betcha.

Hence, I don't see the need for either the Gadget or that God-awful 12-pound trigger.
Get yourself an 1895 Nagant revolver. Shoot it until you've mastered it and shoot it well. It has what is without doubt the heaviest, grittiest, and worst trigger in history. After you have master it, you will consider any other you trigger you ever encounter on a handgun to be a great trigger. 12 pound trigger problem solved.

Slightly less tongue in cheek, the average PP, PPK/S or PPK has a fairly long DA trigger that is about 12 pounds in weight.

10-12 pounds is pretty common on most DA revolvers.

People have shot those handguns accurately in DA mode for generations and don't see the issue.

Tell your trigger finger to "man up".

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Old 02-16-2017, 01:12 PM
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Sorry, but this is a "Well, duh!" It's also apples and oranges.

"Jimmy Johnson has a better chance of winning a NASCAR race in a poor-handling car than Lady Gaga does in a car prepared for Kyle Busch."

"Well, duh!"
Considering the amount of disparaging remarks directed towards C3 carry, such as the frequently repeated statements along the lines of "you might as well carry a rock/hammer/club, if you're carrying a gun with an empty chamber" or "a gun without a round chambered is nothing more than a paper weight", I'm not sure it's obvious or that everyone would in fact agree with me. Especially in extreme close-quarter scenarios which they often cite, yet know very little about.

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Old 02-16-2017, 01:49 PM
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How safe is a gun you can't shoot accurately?

Do nitwits shoot themselves in the feet with Glocks? Sure.

Do hundreds of thousands of police, military, and armed citizens manage to successfully carry a Glock without adding additional ventilation to their shoes and pants?

You betcha.

Hence, I don't see the need for either the Gadget or that God-awful 12-pound trigger.
You may not be able to shoot a 12 lb trigger accurately, but many can.

I'm sure there are little old ladies out there that probably can't even pull the trigger on an NY Glock or DAO revolver, but that doesn't mean it's a bad choice for someone that has no issues with it. I just read an article on another forum by a disabled individual in which the stock Glock trigger was too heavy. So, it's all relative.
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Old 02-16-2017, 02:40 PM
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Functionally, what's the difference?

In any case, it seems the bad actors have copped onto what a dumb idea it is, given the the Israelis' standard practices. I mean, just read my little selection of articles--most of those attacks were unsuccessful. If the thinkers and controllers on the other side actually cared about the people they were sending out to die, they'd probably have learned quicker.

Hence the knife attacks.
For the purpose of my query, I believe there's an enormous difference. An armed soldier or security guard is visibly armed. Concealed carry is - well - concealed. Attacking the former, attacker knows the person is armed. With CCW, a careful attacker might prepare for the possibility of victim being armed, but attacker's situational awareness (I didn't think I would ever use the phrase seriously) is almost certainly lower.

By analogy: Compare intensity or ferocity of an armed attack on uniformed LEO and an armed robber/mugger versus CCW. Unless the robber/mugger intends to murder/shoot the victim, I tend to believe the functionality of the modes of attack are significantly different.

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Old 02-16-2017, 03:20 PM
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You may not be able to shoot a 12 lb trigger accurately, but many can.
Why on God's green earth would you?

Can I? Sure.

Would I want to handicap myself in a life-or-death fight? No way!

Or to turn your guys' argument around--"You might not be able to holster a Glock correctly, but many can."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphtali
For the purpose of my query, I believe there's an enormous difference.
There really isn't, but I can see why you would think there would be. To start with, abandon the notion that everybody is rational and fully considers every possible course of action.

If Israeli citizens are carrying empty-chamber in CCW--I don't care whether they do--then it's either for the reason I mentioned (security) or because that's the way someone once told them to carry.

That's not a cruel assessment. How many ex-police love Glocks? A lot, although guys from a certain vintage prefer S&W DA automatics. And we're all familiar with the legions of vets who are utterly convinced of the absolute supremacy of the 1911.

People are the product of their environment and experiences. That doesn't stop when it comes to gun choices.
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Old 02-16-2017, 03:21 PM
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I received an email from my cousin, mentioned above in my post. He said he's unaware of a requirement for empty chamber carry. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just didn't come up during his permitting process and he didn't ask.
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Old 02-16-2017, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
Why on God's green earth would you?

Can I? Sure.

Would I want to handicap myself in a life-or-death fight? No way!

Or to turn your guys' argument around--"You might not be able to holster a Glock correctly, but many can.".

If you can shoot them accurately, how are they a handicap?

With respect to the Glock NY triggers, I feel like I can actually shoot faster with them installed compared to the standard spring. They provide a more positive, forceful reset IMO. Plus they are actually more durable than the standard spring.

The issue some have is obviously the pull weight. Even though I have no problems with it, many reportedly do. It all boils down to individual differences in strength, coordination and technique. Some people can hold a light gun adequately steady against a 12 lb trigger pull during a rapid string of fire and some cannot. There's no shame in not being able to do so and for some it just might not be an appropriate or acceptable choice.

However, I don't know what your standard of accuracy happens to be. I see no need in being a precision marksman at 25+ yards and am pretty much only interested in being able to make fast, effective hits at probable self-defense distances. The NY trigger is not an impediment to that objective. And considering that nearly all civilian defensive shootings occur inside a few yards, even those who may slightly struggle with a heavier trigger, most likely wouldn't be negatively affected in an actual defense scenario.

I also gain an additional safeguard against unintentional discharges with the NY trigger in an actual defense scenario should I have to hold someone at gunpoint, run with gun in hand or just inadvertently make contact with the trigger in some fashion. Even the most graceful, agile athletes fall down sometimes and make mistakes in their movement.

Reholstering is generally done in a slow, controlled manner and why I don't see the necessity of the gadget. Irregardless, the NY trigger solves those concerns as well just like the heavier trigger does with a DAO revolver.

That just me and where I'm at currently. YMMV

Last edited by Mister X; 02-16-2017 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 02-16-2017, 06:47 PM
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I was fine with the NY trigger the day they swapped 'em out and then went on out to the range.

Can't remember throwing a hissy fit or refusing to eat my vegetables.

Oh well, to each their own.
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Old 02-16-2017, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by S&W Fan View Post
I received an email from my cousin, mentioned above in my post. He said he's unaware of a requirement for empty chamber carry. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just didn't come up during his permitting process and he didn't ask.
I don't think it is a requirement for non-uniformed folks; it was always a requirement in the past for the uniforms, mostly, no pun intended, for uniformity in training and procedure.

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Not uncommon for the guards from the various kibbutz and moshavs to carry long guns rather than handguns.
I think it is almost de rigueur
for those folks.

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The chamber empty method is mostly reserved for IDF and some police units depending on their mission. Not uncommon for soldiers in civvies "off duty" to have mags out of their rifles-though not always the case.
Actually, it is not uncommon to see groups of IDF personnel together and ALL of them have their ARs slung over their shoulders with magazines out but easily available - except, usually, the group leader. His or her magazine will be in.

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I know a retired IDF captain and Shin Bet officer that assures me the security service guys all carry chambered (mostly Glock 19s now).
A tribute to modernity methinks. However, ask me again in April when I return from my next jaunt there. I will have new answers.

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He's also said whenever they went out on missions long guns and pistols were carried with rounds chambered.
I imagine they would always have carried rifles with rounds chambered. That would have been easy to standardize, even way back in the bolt action days. Handguns were different and, again, modernity might have changed some things. Six weeks and a wake up and I'll be back with fresh insight for y'all.
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Old 02-16-2017, 08:26 PM
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When I took my concealed carry class here in Arkansas the class was run by a State Police Trooper. The question came up about carrying your pistol with an empty chamber and the hammer down. He laughed and said no but H**L No. He said those split seconds loading your weapon could be the difference in surviving or dying in a shoot out.
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Old 02-16-2017, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
It's a unicorn. Really--is anybody going to do any trick stuff like that in a life-or-death struggle?



Every reputable source I've ever read repeats the same thing over and over again: simple, gross movements. No fine motor control.

Hope you practice your gross motor reloads:

Weapons Manipulation: Fine Motor Skills vs Gross Motor Skills Reload - YouTube

Because lining up sights and pulling the trigger aren't fine motor skills...
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Old 02-16-2017, 11:08 PM
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Considering the amount of disparaging remarks directed towards C3 carry, such as the frequently repeated statements along the lines of "you might as well carry a rock/hammer/club, if you're carrying a gun with an empty chamber" or "a gun without a round chambered is nothing more than a paper weight", I'm not sure it's obvious or that everyone would in fact agree with me. Especially in extreme close-quarter scenarios which they often cite, yet know very little about.
Think you missed my point. I carried an M1911A1 cocked and locked (Condition 1) for almost 30 years without an issue. Nowadays, I carry revolvers at work and off duty and outshoot my younger, Glock 22-armed officers.

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Old 02-16-2017, 11:37 PM
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Think you missed my point. I carried an M1911A1 cocked and locked (Condition 1) for almost 30 years without an issue. Nowadays, I carry revolvers at work and off duty and outshoot my younger, Glock 22-armed officers.

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I guess so, because what does any of that have to do with my assertion that an individual carrying with an empty chamber, but better trained in ECQ is more capable than a lesser trained person carrying with one in the pipe?
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Old 02-17-2017, 01:20 AM
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I guess so, because what does any of that have to do with my assertion that an individual carrying with an empty chamber, but better trained in ECQ is more capable than a lesser trained person carrying with one in the pipe?
Okay. Would you say that a better trained person in ECQ carrying with an empty chamber is more capable than a better trained person in ECQ carrying with one in the pipe? Or, would you say a lesser trained person carrying with an empty chamber is more capable than a lesser trained person with one in the chamber?

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Old 02-17-2017, 10:50 AM
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Think you missed my point. I carried an M1911A1 cocked and locked (Condition 1) for almost 30 years without an issue. Nowadays, I carry revolvers at work and off duty and outshoot my younger, Glock 22-armed officers.
That raises an entirely different issue.

My first exposure to bullseye shooting was in my Department's shooting range, when Bullseye matches and participation in postal matches was common place.

The same could be said in my first exposure to practical pistol competition in the late 1980s.

Fast forward 25 years however and I noted that police officers were rarely seen at practical pistol shoots. in our local shoots it was notable when two FBI agents started showing up specifically to improve their tactical shooting skills. Their performance initially was very poor, but they rapidly improved.

The point here is that most law enforcement officers today are not "gun people" and the vast majority do not shoot more often than required to qualify once or twice a year - perhaps a total of 240 rounds a year if they qualify twice.

I shoot 100-200 rounds in a single range session, and I shoot at least once a week and most weeks I shoot twice a week.

In short, the poor shooting isn't due to the Glock 22s, it's due to the officers shooting them.
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Old 02-17-2017, 11:05 AM
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Okay. Would you say that a better trained person in ECQ carrying with an empty chamber is more capable than a better trained person in ECQ carrying with one in the pipe? Or, would you say a lesser trained person carrying with an empty chamber is more capable than a lesser trained person with one in the chamber?

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Carrying with one the chamber is substantial better. I never stated otherwise.

My original comment was merely addressing the notion that a gun carried with an empty chamber is worthless. I am not an advocate of C3.

If someone says a gun carried with an empty is "no better than a rock" or "you might as well carry a hammer", then I take that to mean they think it is essentially likely useless in terms of a projectile weapon in an actual defense encounter.

If someone understands the dynamics of ECQ scenarios and has done a lot of Force on Force, they would know that there are often ways around the limitations of C3 carry in that environment. Not in every scenario by any means, but likely a fairly large percentage.

And to make another comparison to hopefully clarify my assertion....I often see comments that IDPA and the like are the best training methods for armed defense. However, I believe an individual well-trained in only ECQ carrying with an empty chamber is probably more capable in defending themselves in the most likely civilian defense scenarios than a highly skilled IDPA/USPSA etc. competitor whose carrying hot and training and practice is limited to the range and preparing for those sports. It's difficult to compare two different individuals and natural ability factors in , so let's just say we are comparing twins undertaking different training regimens.

Last edited by Mister X; 02-17-2017 at 01:33 PM.
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