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  #51  
Old 02-21-2017, 02:20 PM
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The type or brand of firearm hasn't come to light, has it? It could have been a derringer or who knows. I personally know of a case where a fellow had just cleaned his derringer and had wiped it down with an oily rag. He was putting it on the top shelf of a closet. It slipped from his grasp and put a .357 mag. up between his legs. I had a revolver come out of an upside down shoulder holster. The hammer block on the S&W model 36 saved my bacon. It landed so hard the hammer spur broke off. My point is that there are gun accidents. I also know of a case of a robbery of a jewelry store where the owner liked the empty chamber for a semi-auto. When he went to the back to retrieve some merchandise, he also retrieved his .380. He tried to quietly rack the slide, so as to not alert the armed robber. He didn't manipulate the slide with enough force to fully chamber the round and when he pointed it at the robber, the pistol wouldn't fire. The jeweler paid with his life.
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Old 02-21-2017, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by GeoJelly View Post
I feel sorry for all involved - and this validates my absolute rule of empty chamber outside the house if I'm carrying an auto. I suppose that habit could cost me dearly at some point - I just make it a point to never go where I would need a h/g ... even though I frequently carry one.

Edited to add: a little clarification. Doesn't take a genius to figure out high risk locations: convenience stores in general and especially after dark (even just for fuel), spray car washes after dark, any Wal-Mart on the wrong side of the tracks after 9AM, liquor stores, any mall near the wrong side of the tracks after 4PM, most of the low-end fast food places after dark. I've reached past 60, avoiding all of these places, and never had a problem. I know the tactical types are going to sneer at this - but it's worked for me so far!!
This reply appears to show the rationale for using a double-action revolver for EDC. No lost motion or need for complex drill, such as cycling the mechanism, to prep for shooting when the situation has degenerated to an emergency/panic that requires drawing your weapon.
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Old 02-21-2017, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by haywood View Post
If you can't aford a gun that dosen't fire when you drop it, you should not carry. Or maybe he just didn't know enough to buy a decent gun. Makes responsibale CCW people look bad.
I agree, but it is most likely that that is not what actually happened. Most likely is that the gun fired because the trigger was pulled. I wasn't there, but I'm not pulling this out of my ***. I would be willing to put serious money on my above statement, based on a certain amount of experience with life, liars and guns.

We shall see.
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Old 02-21-2017, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BE Mike View Post
The type or brand of firearm hasn't come to light, has it? It could have been a derringer or who knows. I personally know of a case where a fellow had just cleaned his derringer and had wiped it down with an oily rag. He was putting it on the top shelf of a closet. It slipped from his grasp and put a .357 mag. up between his legs. I had a revolver come out of an upside down shoulder holster. The hammer block on the S&W model 36 saved my bacon. It landed so hard the hammer spur broke off. My point is that there are gun accidents. I also know of a case of a robbery of a jewelry store where the owner liked the empty chamber for a semi-auto. When he went to the back to retrieve some merchandise, he also retrieved his .380. He tried to quietly rack the slide, so as to not alert the armed robber. He didn't manipulate the slide with enough force to fully chamber the round and when he pointed it at the robber, the pistol wouldn't fire. The jeweler paid with his life.
When you have just read the last sentence, it is hard to put a "Like" on this post, so I'll just quote it to let the poster know that I appreciate his having posted it.
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  #55  
Old 02-21-2017, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
Remember that thing I said about game theory? Same deal.

For me, carrying with a loaded chamber has no downside. I'm confident with it. Cheap, too!

What about this ECQ stuff you keep going on about? Okay, great--are you going to pay for my classes? How about my travel and lodging? Time off from work? I'm not married, but maybe for some of these other guys, you can write nice letters to their wives explaining why they need to watch the kids solo for a few days, maybe a week.

How about just practicing this stuff? Super--go find me a range within 150 miles of my current location with the facilities to allow me to do this. I'll wait.

If you feel I'm dismissive of you--and trust me, you'll know it when I am--then it's because you're advocating very expensive, hard-to-acquire training, when most people don't have the fundamentals down. And when I say, "fundamentals", read that as "basic handgun operation" and "remembering to turn the safety off".

People do not have unlimited resources, but it's very "in" to act like they do. So whether I hear the words "Simunition" or "Everyone should go to Gunsite!" or any one of a thousand other buzzwords and hard sells, I struggle not to be dismissive.

If you think I'm failing, sorry.

---

Now, this thread was about some dope managing to shoot a lady in a Dunkin Donuts. Wanna get back on topic? We can seek unity in our mutual derision of that mook.
I wasn't the one who brought up C3 carry and there were numerous posts addressing it, so I don't see it being off topic. I can't comment too much regarding the ND in the OP's story since I still don't know what precisely happened. It was you who introduced the "ECQ stuff". You didn't use the terminology, but it's the same thing nonetheless.

The downside of carrying with a loaded chamber is greater risk of unintentional discharges. There should be no disputing that the possibilities are higher with a C1 vs a C3 gun since having one with the latter is impossible. Most of us feel that the increased risks vs potential benefits ratio favor C1, but not everyone feels the same and I wouldn't say they are necessarily wrong.

While direct instruction is ideal, I think you can learn via other means. A lot of schools and instructors have put out numerous DVDs, books and offer distance learning programs and are pretty accessible online via phone, email, video chat and conferencing etc. for questions and additional information. A lot of them even put instructional videos on YouTube for free.

A reasonably intelligent person, especially one who already has had some training can definitely learn this way. Even running crude, but properly conducted drills using airsoft with like minded friends will offer benefits and increase understanding. The same applies with simply watching real footage of actual incidents. The bulk of ECQ training doesn't involve live fire, so it's actually cheaper than simply going into the range. More beneficial overall as well IMO. A lot of the classes and seminars I've attended over the years didn't offer much individual attention and instruction, so were not really much better than simply watching a video of the same material.
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  #56  
Old 02-21-2017, 04:46 PM
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My guess is this incident didn't happen the way the gun owner claims. People make up stupid stories trying to cover-up their horrendously stupid acts.

Bet on it!
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Old 02-21-2017, 05:02 PM
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I suppose I am somewhat at fault for causing this thread to drone on and on - with the empty chamber comment. But, I’m pretty set in my ways about avoiding handcuffs and jail time. (Pure speculation follows ) I would ask everyone to keep in mind that the majority of the public is likely not carrying and they seem to be surviving just fine! That said, the discourse has been interesting and I’ve enjoyed the videos …

Edited to add: There is no implied criticism in my statement above about the majority of the public not carrying. I carry every chance I can and wholeheartedly support all other lawful carriers. The one thing I do, whether carrying or not, is to keep my situational awareness as high as possible (given my feeble mind) to try to spot potential problems while they're still out of range!!

Last edited by GeoJelly; 02-21-2017 at 08:52 PM. Reason: Clarification
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  #58  
Old 02-21-2017, 08:36 PM
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Agree that most everyone gets by just fine not carrying a gun. Stats are on their side but I remember grad school stat class. There are lies, damn lies and statictics. I prefer to carry, especially now that I am too old to fight or run, and need a slight edge, stats not withstanding.
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Old 02-21-2017, 09:11 PM
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At lot of VN Vets were trained to not chamber, we use our awareness first, size up the options, find protection, make sure free from friendlies then bring the weapon to engage.

Laughter is the key to happiness

Last edited by Rowlette; 02-22-2017 at 09:59 AM.
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  #60  
Old 02-21-2017, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Old cop View Post
Agree that most everyone gets by just fine not carrying a gun. Stats are on their side but I remember grad school stat class. There are lies, damn lies and statictics. I prefer to carry, especially now that I am too old to fight or run, and need a slight edge, stats not withstanding.
Statistically, you are in no danger of being attacked by stats!
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  #61  
Old 02-21-2017, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by GeoJelly View Post
I suppose I am somewhat at fault for causing this thread to drone on and on - with the empty chamber comment.
it's not a bad way to open the discussion--maybe could have done to be less controversial. But hey, if there's no debate, then there's no content. The forum just becomes an echo chamber (no pun intended). Forums like that suck.

Besides, if I couldn't articulate, in ordinary speech, why I feel loaded-chamber carry was superior, then it would be clear I didn't understand it. Likewise, if I have to play Buzzword Bingo with a guy, then frankly, I know he's not really sure of what he thinks. Ditto for acronyms and black-ninja-operator-speek.
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Old 02-22-2017, 12:40 AM
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Fleeing the scene and then turning yourself in with your lawyer present a couple of hours later screams of I did something wrong but this high price lawyer will try to get me out of it ..

Someone who has not done anything wrong doesn't leave but gives medical aid to the injured person .. so his actions already makes him look guilty whether he is or not ..

there is little info in the article the way its written like what he was doing .. was it holstered or just tucked in a pocket or his waist band of his pants .. did it discharge when it hit the floor or did he try to catch it causing a discharge .. or did it discharge when he tried to re-holster or conceal it in another way ..

Hope we'll find out what really happened !!

Until more info is known were left to speculate what happened ..
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  #63  
Old 02-22-2017, 12:43 AM
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...play with your gun in public...get arrested...one way or the other...
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  #64  
Old 02-22-2017, 02:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Whitwabit View Post
Fleeing the scene and then turning yourself in with your lawyer present a couple of hours later screams of I did something wrong but this high price lawyer will try to get me out of it ..

Someone who has not done anything wrong doesn't leave but gives medical aid to the injured person .. so his actions already makes him look guilty whether he is or not ..
You know, I've read some stories where guys did stuff that was...well, grey-area. Legal, but not the sort of legal where you walk away squeaky-clean. Even one where the unfortunate halfwit left the scene, disassembled his pistol, and drove home pitching the pieces out the window. So I can wrap my mind around the sort of fear that would cause someone to leave the scene.

I don't mind the lawyer so much--drop me in that position, after the fact, and I'd get one. I think most people can understand that. But it's all just so much ammunition to be used against him.

I'd be awful interested in seeing this guy's carry gear. And, side note--this is one of those situations where them "Grim Reaper" grips that looked so cool on eBay, or that "Smile and Wait For Flash" backplate, can really come back to bite you.
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Old 02-22-2017, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowlette View Post
At lot of VN Vets were trained to not chamber, we use our awareness first, size up the options, find protection, make sure free from friendlies then bring the weapon to engage.

Laughter is the key to happiness
I was in the Army 1965-67 and only MPs on duty carried 1911s loaded, BUT with an empty chamber. This was doctrine then....don't know what it is today. The Army simply knows "stuff happens".
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  #66  
Old 02-22-2017, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by S&WIowegan View Post
I was in the Army 1965-67 and only MPs on duty carried 1911s loaded, BUT with an empty chamber. This was doctrine then....don't know what it is today. The Army simply knows "stuff happens".
Military and police *generally* know when danger is immanent, and therefore have time to chamber a round.

Civilians don't have that luxury.
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Old 02-22-2017, 11:33 AM
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Doughnut Shop and no LEO present ???
maybe he was a cop..............
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Old 02-22-2017, 12:19 PM
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maybe he was a cop..............
Troublemaker!
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Old 02-22-2017, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Protected One View Post
Military and police *generally* know when danger is immanent, and therefore have time to chamber a round.

Civilians don't have that luxury.
I was merely stating a fact correct during my period of service. You are wasting your time arguing with that fact.
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Old 02-22-2017, 02:17 PM
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Default Irresponsible coward!

Regardless of the circumstances, the shooter is a pathetic, irresponsible coward. Leaving the scene and NOT being accountable makes him that in my book.

Some people should not own/carry a gun.

Be safe.

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Old 02-22-2017, 02:26 PM
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Not to throw any more fuel on this fire, but I did visit a Dunkin' Donuts this morning. Had to take the wife's car to Herndon - and there's a DD across the street from the service place. Took my Glock 42 as a change of pace since it's lighter than my CM9. The DD is fairly small - probably only 200 SF for customers - with standing room only. The ladies were uber friendly - I almost asked to take their picture but it was way too busy. The only reason I mention this is I would have normally just left the pistol in the car, but I couldn't today because it was being serviced.

I'm sure I'm going to have numerous negative comments - but this has to be said: could we please all stop being so danged paranoid? Sure, it's nice to have the freedom to legally carry, but I'm not so sure that, speaking for myself only, I have to be armed to the teeth where ever I go. I'm intelligent enough to understand that no mortal being can accurately predict where the shinola is going to hit the fan. But, this ole farm boy has enough good sense to reduce his risk by picking and choosing when and where he visits and spends time. There, it's off my chest and I understand I'm going to be electronically castigated and castrated ...
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Old 02-22-2017, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by GeoJelly View Post
There, it's off my chest and I understand I'm going to be electronically castigated and castrated ...
Is that any less painful than with a dull knife?
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Old 02-22-2017, 11:51 PM
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GeoJelly,

above you say:

"I suppose I am somewhat at fault for causing this thread to drone on and on - with the empty chamber comment. "

Then you post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJelly View Post
Not to throw any more fuel on this fire, but I did visit a Dunkin' Donuts this morning. Had to take the wife's car to Herndon - and there's a DD across the street from the service place. Took my Glock 42 as a change of pace since it's lighter than my CM9. The DD is fairly small - probably only 200 SF for customers - with standing room only. The ladies were uber friendly - I almost asked to take their picture but it was way too busy. The only reason I mention this is I would have normally just left the pistol in the car, but I couldn't today because it was being serviced.

I'm sure I'm going to have numerous negative comments - but this has to be said: could we please all stop being so danged paranoid? Sure, it's nice to have the freedom to legally carry, but I'm not so sure that, speaking for myself only, I have to be armed to the teeth where ever I go. I'm intelligent enough to understand that no mortal being can accurately predict where the shinola is going to hit the fan. But, this ole farm boy has enough good sense to reduce his risk by picking and choosing when and where he visits and spends time. There, it's off my chest and I understand I'm going to be electronically castigated and castrated ...
No one is being paranoid, but you seem to forget you are posting on a Concealed Carry section of the forum - or are you being purposely obtuse to get a reaction?
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by GeoJelly View Post
I feel sorry for all involved - and this validates my absolute rule of empty chamber outside the house if I'm carrying an auto. I suppose that habit could cost me dearly at some point - I just make it a point to never go where I would need a h/g ... even though I frequently carry one.

Edited to add: a little clarification. Doesn't take a genius to figure out high risk locations: convenience stores in general and especially after dark (even just for fuel), spray car washes after dark, any Wal-Mart on the wrong side of the tracks after 9AM, liquor stores, any mall near the wrong side of the tracks after 4PM, most of the low-end fast food places after dark. I've reached past 60, avoiding all of these places, and never had a problem. I know the tactical types are going to sneer at this - but it's worked for me so far!!
I could drop my Glock off a skyscraper and it wouldn't discharge. This was a negligent discharge by someone who was an idiot. Nothing more

Carry a firearm with an empty chamber is about as useful as carrying a rock
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Old 02-23-2017, 04:39 PM
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From my personal experience of almost being an armed robbery victim:

I was with a friend in an empty train station on the wrong side of the tracks after midnight on a weekend which is a high risk situation by just about any definition. A middle aged guy of average height and build sort of waved at us and began to ask us for directions as he walked towards us. He came up to about arms length from us as he was still saying he couldn't understand the directions we were trying to give when he suddenly put his hand in a coat pocket and said "This is a stick up, give me the money or I'll shoot."

So if it happens, it'll be up close with no time to think about it.

So what happened? At that same moment our friend we were waiting for drove up into the parking lot and the BG saw the headlights, got scared and ran off. Still wonder whether he really had a gun or it was a con job.
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Old 02-23-2017, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by GeoJelly View Post
Not to throw any more fuel on this fire, but I did visit a Dunkin' Donuts this morning. Had to take the wife's car to Herndon - and there's a DD across the street from the service place. Took my Glock 42 as a change of pace since it's lighter than my CM9. The DD is fairly small - probably only 200 SF for customers - with standing room only. The ladies were uber friendly - I almost asked to take their picture but it was way too busy. The only reason I mention this is I would have normally just left the pistol in the car, but I couldn't today because it was being serviced.

I'm sure I'm going to have numerous negative comments - but this has to be said: could we please all stop being so danged paranoid? Sure, it's nice to have the freedom to legally carry, but I'm not so sure that, speaking for myself only, I have to be armed to the teeth where ever I go. I'm intelligent enough to understand that no mortal being can accurately predict where the shinola is going to hit the fan. But, this ole farm boy has enough good sense to reduce his risk by picking and choosing when and where he visits and spends time. There, it's off my chest and I understand I'm going to be electronically castigated and castrated ...
A car jacking can happen at any stop light anytime of day in any town USA .. even in very well to do areas you might feel safe in .. the ole farm boy with his pistol in the glove box isn't able to defend himself and has just given a criminal his pistol !!
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Old 02-23-2017, 05:59 PM
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A car jacking can happen at any stop light anytime of day in any town USA .. even in very well to do areas you might feel safe in .. the ole farm boy with his pistol in the glove box isn't able to defend himself and has just given a criminal his pistol !!
You are absolutely right - the bad guy owns the situation, in that case, and can have the car and the pistol as far as I'm concerned. But, quick reminder, situational awareness plays a role here. The doors lock automatically on my vehicle - and I always leave room between myself and the car in front of me. I suppose someone could run out, handgun drawn, into traffic and demand that I get out - it's happened too often elsewhere. Revolver, or auto with chambered round, or pointy stick - doesn't matter - I'm driving away if possible. I live south of DC - but out of bus-range of DC if you get my drift. There hasn't been an incident like that around here in at least the last three years. Who knows, it could happen tomorrow ...

Are you suggesting that your chambered round somehow makes you a clear winner in that situation? Would you fire at someone thru the glass of your car? What about your stray rounds hitting other vehicles and/or drivers and passengers? I will continue to carry where it's legal around here; but, to re-use your farm boy comment, I ain't stupid - I'm not going to open fire on some fool standing outside my car and demanding that I get out!!
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Old 02-23-2017, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by GeoJelly View Post
You are absolutely right - the bad guy owns the situation, in that case, and can have the car and the pistol as far as I'm concerned. But, quick reminder, situational awareness plays a role here. The doors lock automatically on my vehicle - and I always leave room between myself and the car in front of me. I suppose someone could run out, handgun drawn, into traffic and demand that I get out - it's happened too often elsewhere. Revolver, or auto with chambered round, or pointy stick - doesn't matter - I'm driving away if possible. I live south of DC - but out of bus-range of DC if you get my drift. There hasn't been an incident like that around here in at least the last three years. Who knows, it could happen tomorrow ...

Are you suggesting that your chambered round somehow makes you a clear winner in that situation? Would you fire at someone thru the glass of your car? What about your stray rounds hitting other vehicles and/or drivers and passengers? I will continue to carry where it's legal around here; but, to re-use your farm boy comment, I ain't stupid - I'm not going to open fire on some fool standing outside my car and demanding that I get out!!
In the 1-2 seconds for you to rack the slide I could have shot 2-3 times so a chamber round does give one an advantage over a person that has to rack the slide ..

so you will just get out and give up your car and pistol that is in the glove box .. with putting up a fight or defending yourself ..

no it does not make me a clear winner but it will allow me to defend myself if the opportunity would arise .. yes I would fire thru the window if I thought my life was in jeopardy .. the perp probably will if you don't give up the vehicle .. many times your not able to just drive away or you will be shot at if you do .. many people have been shot in car jacking's when they either didn't respond fast enough or refused to get out of the car ..

What stray rounds .. what makes you think I would not hit my target ?? 1 to 2 rounds at 3-5 feet or less at someone reaching for the handle of the car door .. would be hard to miss by even the worse of shooters .. of which I am not ..

having your gun in the glove box and not on you .. you give your self no chance ..

It was your initial Farm Boy remark not mine .. all the farm boys I know who have a carry permit carry not leave their gun off body .. Oh and yes I'm a farm boy .. You see I actually live on a farm !!
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Old 02-23-2017, 08:10 PM
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You guys think you're cowboys!. The chances of being in an active OK Corral situation is minimal unless you're are on the job. The best weapon in any scenario is what's between your ears.

Laughter is the key to happiness

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Old 02-23-2017, 08:19 PM
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As has been mentioned..."stuff happens". I am "newer" at CC and it is something that I do daily now for a little over a year. Practicing will make you "better" but no one is ever the "best". The situational awareness is the biggest key. (IMO ......and it is only that......Opinion) I drive a Jeep or ride a Harley 95% of the time. Someone approaching me, and me trying to reach behind me and draw just doesn't compute for me. I use a "cross draw" or "off side" holster....fortunately one of the local Bike shops has a vest that is designed SPECIFICALLY for CC again in the "off side" which is very close to where I would be reaching when in the Jeep. Why do I mention all this?
I am no "expert" but I know what I am "comfortable with", and that helps me be safe for myself and others...and IMO more prepared. One thing the military taught me....there is never too much Practice.....If you are not "comfortable", empty chamber or one in the pipe won't matter, you won't be "fluid"...and that may cost you your life or injury to someone you didn't intend.
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Old 02-24-2017, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Protected One View Post
Military and police *generally* know when danger is immanent, and therefore have time to chamber a round.

Civilians don't have that luxury.
Having done both, I cannot agree with this statement. Ambushes, when successful, in the jungle, don't give the unit being ambushed any warning. Many times police situations escalate very quickly from nothing, and allows an officer no warning.

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Old 02-24-2017, 11:45 AM
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Doughnuts are the perfect food. They incorporate all four of the basic food groups. Sugar, salt, starch and grease.
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Old 02-24-2017, 10:34 PM
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This reply appears to show the rationale for using a double-action revolver for EDC. No lost motion or need for complex drill, such as cycling the mechanism, to prep for shooting when the situation has degenerated to an emergency/panic that requires drawing your weapon.
All of the weapons I carry are either double action only or DA/SA semi autos. I'm not going to carry a partially cocked striker or hammer fired pistol. Am aware they have all kinds of safeties but I feel more comfortable with the choices mentioned above.
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Old 02-25-2017, 03:40 PM
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All of the weapons I carry are either double action only or DA/SA semi autos. I'm not going to carry a partially cocked striker or hammer fired pistol. Am aware they have all kinds of safeties but I feel more comfortable with the choices mentioned above.
My understanding of a striker fired pistol is that normal cycling of the slide pre-loads the striker but does not fully cock it. A press of the trigger completes full loading of the striker spring, and releases the striker. If this is basically correct, then this is arguably double-action by definition !
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Old 02-25-2017, 04:16 PM
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I was merely stating a fact correct during my period of service. You are wasting your time arguing with that fact.
Asked a couple of guys who were over in Nam and my nephew a CMSGT who just got out of the army in December after 24 years and 4 tours to the middle east .. he had a hummer blown out from under him and 2 other guys .. asked him if he carried empty chamber while there and his answer was .. "what have you been smoking" !!

His next sentence was .. We were locked and loaded 24/7/365 .. asked my brother a marine who was in Nam in early 67 and his comments were the same .. he said there were a coupe of times he even slept with his because they had been under attack and expected another one ..

maybe here in the states but in a war zone .. no way empty chamber was carried !!

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Old 02-25-2017, 04:30 PM
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This debate, and the points offered, sounds suspiciously like the other 947 ND's I've read about on the internet.

We need some NEW stupid.

This is just a re-run of old stupid.
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Old 02-25-2017, 04:36 PM
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"Left the scene and later turned himself in,with his lawyers present."

More than one mistake in his MO,imo.

In my cynical mind,when someone leaves the scene of any sort of accident,and later shows up at the police station,I wonder if they're waiting for drugs or alcohol to clear their system.


If your theory is true the guy was a genius to lawyer up.


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Old 02-25-2017, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Rowlette View Post
You guys think you're cowboys!. The chances of being in an active OK Corral situation is minimal unless you're are on the job. The best weapon in any scenario is what's between your ears.

Laughter is the key to happiness
Daughter and friends were at a sports bar eating .. very upscale place with good food in a very safe part of town .. with a view of the river ..

At another large table a reunion was going on .. a man entered and walked up to that group and killed his ex wife and another person sitting at the table before an off duty FBI agent shot and killed the shooter .. police reports stated the FBI agent may have averted others being shot and a possible mass murder .. she was less then 10 feet away sitting in a booth along the wall ..

Minimal chance .. Yes .. but you can never know when or where something can happen or will happen !!! She has saved enough and will be getting her permit to carry soon ..
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Old 02-25-2017, 09:33 PM
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In all this post I haven't seen any reference to a 'safety'? I always carry IWB,holstered,round in chamber, safety on, and cross draw. Disengaging the safety as you acquire the target takes place rapidly, with practice!. An extra measure of security. We aren't living in the Old West anymore. A too Quick of a -Draw and engagement can result in life-changing events. Negative ones. Unless you are a LEO it may be more prudent to either get to cover or get out of Dodge.

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Old 02-25-2017, 10:21 PM
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My understanding of a striker fired pistol is that normal cycling of the slide pre-loads the striker but does not fully cock it. A press of the trigger completes full loading of the striker spring, and releases the striker. If this is basically correct, then this is arguably double-action by definition !
This is a subject that has been discussed in alot of forums. It is an argument I won't participate in. I do not carry a pistol that is partially cocked regardless what it is called.
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Old 02-26-2017, 12:34 AM
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I also wonder if Mr. Barroso was a bit borracho; but like what gun he was carrying and how, we sur3ely won't know from the simplistic news coverage.

We had a case here a few years ago where a man dropped his NAA mini-revolver in a movie theater lobby and it fired. Scared the styrofoam peanuts out of some people but as I recall didn't wound anybody.

GeoJelly, I think you will like carrying the 442. The Centennial series are nice little guns, reliable, simple and fast to shoot, and damn near impossible to fire accidentally. Frees you from worries about some lawyer or prosecutor claiming you cocked the gun and negligently squeezed off a shot in single action.
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Old 02-26-2017, 02:58 AM
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This is a subject that has been discussed in alot of forums. It is an argument I won't participate in. I do not carry a pistol that is partially cocked regardless what it is called.
LOL .. your the one who brought the subject up !!!
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Old 02-27-2017, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Dvan34 View Post
In all this post I haven't seen any reference to a 'safety'? I always carry IWB,holstered,round in chamber, safety on, and cross draw. Disengaging the safety as you acquire the target takes place rapidly, with practice!. An extra measure of security. We aren't living in the Old West anymore. A too Quick of a -Draw and engagement can result in life-changing events. Negative ones. Unless you are a LEO it may be more prudent to either get to cover or get out of Dodge.

A safety is a useless feel good device that more times than not encourages unsafe firearm handling

Manual safeties fail. People forget whether they are on or not. I despise my firearms that have safeties and try to purchase firearms without them whenever possible
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Old 02-27-2017, 07:58 PM
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Years ago I hasd a friend from Israel .We got into a discussion on cocked & locked vs unloaded chamber(his way of edc).He demoed his way,with his Hi Power....pulled,racked the slide & fired(gun empty).He was very fast.Told me hrs.practice! I guess it's how you are trained...
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Old 03-04-2017, 09:32 PM
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Mister X (post #45), I'm going to make this point and then leave this thread behind.

In a thirty-year police career Old Cop twice had to use his duty weapon in gunfights to save his posterior. Both times he won. Cirillo he wasn't--who is? But if you read Old Cop's posts here you will understand why I pay attention to what he says, despite his not having a dozen notches on his gun.

He has earned better than snide questioning, like other LEO's here who have "seen the elephant". No, I'm not one. But I salute them.

I'm out.
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Old 03-05-2017, 09:33 AM
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Mister X (post #45), I'm going to make this point and then leave this thread behind.

In a thirty-year police career Old Cop twice had to use his duty weapon in gunfights to save his posterior. Both times he won. Cirillo he wasn't--who is? But if you read Old Cop's posts here you will understand why I pay attention to what he says, despite his not having a dozen notches on his gun.

He has earned better than snide questioning, like other LEO's here who have "seen the elephant". No, I'm not one. But I salute them.

I'm out.
He made a false blanket generalization based on very minimal experience that IIRC took place decades ago. Nothing snide about adding perspective.
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Old 03-05-2017, 09:49 AM
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I dont' understand how, while ordering coffee and a doughnut a firearm "accidently" discharges. My experience is ... if you don't pull the trigger it won't go off, but, the story is very vague about how this happened.

There is NO excuse for him leaving the scene but he is commended for coming forward immediately afterward.

I don't believe there is anyone amongst us that has not had an accidental discharge at least once in their life. For me, it was at the range, fitting a new shooter's glove and new custom target stocks for the first time with a S&W Model 41 in hand pointed safely DOWN RANGE, thank, God.

PS: watch out for those (us) old farts. LIFE is not a very long time for us if we get in trouble.
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Old 03-05-2017, 10:40 AM
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I agree with you for the most part, but there are no absolutes.

There may not be time and opportunity to chamber a round, but there may very well be. It depends on the skill of the individual and the details of the specific scenario. I've come across some highly skilled individuals who train in the Israeli method and I would never describe them as being unprepared to defend themselves in an emergency defense scenario.

You state that you have "been there", which I take to imply that we should listen to you due to personal experience, but how many times have you "been there"? How many situations as a civilian carrying concealed? Does being victorious in a few street fights make someone an authority on combatives? Very few people have been in a significant number of gunfights. Chicago P.D's Bob Stasch has been in 14. The lessons he's taken away and subsequently recommends are to practice making headshots at close-range using one-handed point shooting. 14 gunfights is fairly substantial, yet I see very few taking his advice.

I'm by no means advocating empty-chamber carry and don't chose it myself, but I do think the idea that there will never be time is false.
How many Israelis were stabbed because they weren't fast enough? Quite a lot. Israelis do that for their own reasons which have been explained and have nothing to do with accidental/negligent discharges.

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Old 03-05-2017, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Arik View Post
How many Israelis were stabbed because they weren't fast enough? Quite a lot. Israelis do that for their own reasons which have been explained and have nothing to do with accidental/negligent discharges.

GUN. LOADED. ALWAYS.

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And many have handled the situation just fine. I never advocated for C3, I simply challenged an incorrect assertion.
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Old 03-05-2017, 01:25 PM
hangnoose hangnoose is offline
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Default HOLD ON A SEC,

I believe I have a coup- BANG,OOPS.
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