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Old 02-20-2017, 05:31 PM
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Default Accidental discharge in Coconut Creek FL Dunkin Donuts

This happened about the 12th of this month, my local paper had very little info and I was wondering if someone local had heard more information, such as the type gun involved and the method of carrying.
A woman was injured but the round bit the injury was apparently minor. The gun owner has a FL CCW but he initially left the scene and turned himself in later. I suspect that isn't going to work out very well in his favor.
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Old 02-20-2017, 05:50 PM
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FL man accidentally shoots woman in donut shop after dropping gun (VIDEO)

accidental shooting - Google Search
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Old 02-20-2017, 06:05 PM
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I feel sorry for all involved - and this validates my absolute rule of empty chamber outside the house if I'm carrying an auto. I suppose that habit could cost me dearly at some point - I just make it a point to never go where I would need a h/g ... even though I frequently carry one.

Edited to add: a little clarification. Doesn't take a genius to figure out high risk locations: convenience stores in general and especially after dark (even just for fuel), spray car washes after dark, any Wal-Mart on the wrong side of the tracks after 9AM, liquor stores, any mall near the wrong side of the tracks after 4PM, most of the low-end fast food places after dark. I've reached past 60, avoiding all of these places, and never had a problem. I know the tactical types are going to sneer at this - but it's worked for me so far!!

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Old 02-20-2017, 06:10 PM
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"Left the scene and later turned himself in,with his lawyers present."
More than one mistake in his MO,imo.
In my cynical mind,when someone leaves the scene of any sort of accident,and later shows up at the police station,I wonder if they're waiting for drugs or alcohol to clear their system.
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Old 02-20-2017, 06:13 PM
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I hadn't heard about that at all. I guess I must have missed the news that day, like most..
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Old 02-20-2017, 06:29 PM
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How do you drop a gun if properly holstered?

Gun handling tyro.
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Old 02-20-2017, 06:49 PM
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I just love to read the comments below the story in the paper article. Must be nice to be so sure about something when you have no idea what happened. I missed out on that gene.
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Old 02-20-2017, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJelly View Post
I feel sorry for all involved - and this validates my absolute rule of empty chamber outside the house if I'm carrying an auto. I suppose that habit could cost me dearly at some point - I just make it a point to never go where I would need a h/g ... even though I frequently carry one.
Amazing . . . simply amazing.
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Old 02-20-2017, 07:28 PM
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Default I don't think so

With modern revolvers and semi-autos, not only must the trigger be pulled but it must also be held to the rear for the gun to fire. Unfortunately, it's too easy to blame a mechanical device as defective than to admit that we screwed up in some way.
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Old 02-20-2017, 07:36 PM
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I'm thinking that DD uses this as a an excuse to declare their locations a "no carry zone". This position is getting more popular up this way in (liberal) MA where they headquarter.
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Old 02-20-2017, 07:55 PM
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The real question is what was he doing with it that caused it to drop? Because you know it would not just fall out of the holster unless it was a really really bad one or he was not using one.

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Old 02-20-2017, 08:10 PM
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I didn't see anything in the articles about a holster. I wonder if it was in his waistband, sans holster, or merely in a pocket(?)

Quote:
... after a customer accidentally fired a gun when he dropped it inside the business Saturday morning. ...
From the wording in the article, it sounds like it's possible the gun discharged as he was clumsily attempting to retrieve it.
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Old 02-20-2017, 08:11 PM
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I saw a guy in walmart a few months ago open carrying an M&P
Shield. He was using a one size fits all uncle mikes nylon holster that he probably bought at that very Walmart. Looked like an airsoft holster. Gun was flopping around like a fish on the cheap thin leather belt he had.
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Old 02-20-2017, 08:11 PM
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Actually I understand the new Ruger lcp ll does not have a drop safety. Most modern guns do have drop safeties, but since we have no idea of the age or make of the gun, we may never know.

The story states "after a customer accidentally fired a gun when he dropped it inside the business Saturday"

Did the customer fire the gun or did the gun discharge when it fell to the floor? Can not tell from the report.

Guns have been known to slip out of holsters, I have read accounts of this happening on this forum.
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Old 02-20-2017, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJelly View Post
I feel sorry for all involved...
Me too! - but mostly for the injured lady. Seems likely the guntoter was either incompetent or the victim of terrible misfortune that is difficult to imagine. Either way, I would sure hate to be in his shoes. Hope the victim recovers quickly, with no permanent injury.
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Old 02-20-2017, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Flash View Post
From the wording in the article, it sounds like it's possible the gun discharged as he was clumsily attempting to retrieve it.
That makes more sense. We'll probably never know for sure.
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Old 02-20-2017, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amcline82 View Post
The real question is what was he doing with it that caused it to drop?
The gun was likely never dropped. The "I dropped it and it went off" is a bull story told to cover up grossly negligent behavior. The kind of behavior you typically go to jail for.

Most of the time, the "dropped gun that went off" only goes off when someone tries to catch it or pick it back up.

Hence why your friendly neighborhood RSOs typically insist on picking guns up themselves, rather than letting the shooter that dropped it do so.
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Old 02-20-2017, 08:47 PM
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ND: Negligent discharge. Put the blame where it belongs.

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Old 02-20-2017, 09:01 PM
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First Gen S&W 9mm autos can be inertia drop fired and that is why S&W went to the 2nd gen design,
Walther P38's and P4's can be as well so guessing the PPK series has the same fault when safety is off, this was fixed in the P5,

Also while not certain cant Series 70 and older 1911's drop fire if not on half cock ?
Pre 1972 Ruger SA revolvers can also be drop fired if not on half cock,
NAA mini revolvers can be drop fired if the hammer isnt on the cylinder notch between rounds too.

We just dont know the details or firearm involved.
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Old 02-20-2017, 09:11 PM
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In an earlier post someone said they keep the chamber empty unless or until going into someplace that the weapon might be needed in a hurry. Several well thought out examples followed but allow me to be the voice of experience here. I've "been there" and can tell you there will not be enough time to chamber a round in an emergency. If that is how you carry you might think about a revolver. I don't mean any disrespect, just don't want to see anyone to get hurt.
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Old 02-20-2017, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camster View Post
"Left the scene and later turned himself in,with his lawyers present."
More than one mistake in his MO,imo.
In my cynical mind,when someone leaves the scene of any sort of accident,and later shows up at the police station,I wonder if they're waiting for drugs or alcohol to clear their system.
Or the man simply panicked

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Old 02-20-2017, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJelly View Post
I feel sorry for all involved - and this validates my absolute rule of empty chamber outside the house if I'm carrying an auto. I suppose that habit could cost me dearly at some point - I just make it a point to never go where I would need a h/g ... even though I frequently carry one.
Wow, just wow!
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Old 02-20-2017, 09:19 PM
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An empty chamber on a bottom feeder?
Worthless as I see it.
I CC a revolver most of the time as the use is just using the trigger under dire circumstances.
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Old 02-20-2017, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJelly View Post
I feel sorry for all involved - and this validates my absolute rule of empty chamber outside the house if I'm carrying an auto. I suppose that habit could cost me dearly at some point - I just make it a point to never go where I would need a h/g ... even though I frequently carry one.

Edited to add: a little clarification. Doesn't take a genius to figure out high risk locations: convenience stores in general and especially after dark (even just for fuel), spray car washes after dark, any Wal-Mart on the wrong side of the tracks after 9AM, liquor stores, any mall near the wrong side of the tracks after 4PM, most of the low-end fast food places after dark. I've reached past 60, avoiding all of these places, and never had a problem. I know the tactical types are going to sneer at this - but it's worked for me so far!!
Carry any way you wish, of course. But, watch a few of the ambush videos below and see how attacks come out of nowhere. It's pretty unlikely a person would have time to chamber a round.

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Old 02-20-2017, 09:37 PM
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Now do we really want to crucify someone without knowing the facts like the mass media does?
Just this last weekend my belt wasn't tight enough and my gut shoved my gun and holster off my belt to the ground. Now since I knew better I didn't grab the gun by the trigger to put it back on my belt.
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Old 02-20-2017, 09:44 PM
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Well, in a Dunkin' Donuts I guess you're supposed to say you dropped it. Sounds better than saying you were cleaning it.

I'm probably going to p*** off a few people with my presumption, but I don't believe it. I think he was playing with it, and I KNOW he pulled the trigger. I'd rather be wrong on the off chance that he had an unsafe gun and it actually fell unassisted from wherever he was carrying it, than pass up the chance to be a CORRECT know-it-all and say what I said.

He was fooling with it, and he had his finger on the trigger. Perhaps he dropped it while he was fooling with it, and tried to catch it by the trigger. The gun didn't go off when it hit the floor.
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Old 02-20-2017, 10:07 PM
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The fact is, this poorly written story doesn't provide enough information to KNOW much about what happened.
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Old 02-20-2017, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwt1405 View Post
Wow, just wow!
If he wants to carry around a paper weight that's his right.
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Old 02-20-2017, 10:10 PM
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Doughnut Shop and no LEO present ???
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Old 02-20-2017, 10:17 PM
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There have been more than a few articulate and well-thought out responses on this thread. Those same respondents have been respectful and, although this isn’t “my” thread, I appreciate their input. I certainly don’t claim to be all-knowing – I just read and maintain my contributing membership here to learn from those wiser than myself.

There have also been a few snarky and lazy responses – none of which (thus far) have offered any useful input. I suppose those respondents, with their sophomoric responses, are intending to demonstrate their superior knowledge and tactical insight regarding this situation. But, in truth, they have offered nothing at all - they've just upped their post count and little else.

I still don't like the idea of any striker-fired auto hitting the floor with a round in the chamber. I've never seen or encountered an example of where that has happened - and I sure hope I don't!!

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Old 02-20-2017, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breakaway500 View Post
ND: Negligent discharge. Put the blame where it belongs.
I agree. There are no accidental discharges. They are all
negligent discharges.
Wyatt Earp was playing poker one night in Tombstone. He was
leaning back on the back two chair legs with the two front ones
off the floor. His revolver fell out of the holster, the hammer
hit the floor, and the gun fired. Scared Hell out of folks.
If a negligent discharge could happen to Wyatt Earp, one could
probably happen to any of us.
Don't know if true, but I have heard that is what started the
practice of keeping an empty chamber under the hammer ,
and plugged up with "burying money".
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Old 02-20-2017, 10:46 PM
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I'm still struggling with the idea that anybody actually patronizes Dunkin Donuts, what with their terrible coffee and mediocre doughnuts.
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Old 02-20-2017, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Rpg View Post
How do you drop a gun if properly holstered?

Gun handling tyro.
When you are pulling it out to rob a Duncan Donuts.

Note that he has his 'tactical' sunglasses on. Maybe he was acting like an idiot.
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Old 02-20-2017, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly77 View Post
I'm still struggling with the idea that anybody actually patronizes Dunkin Donuts, what with their terrible coffee and mediocre doughnuts.
Krispy Kreme
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Old 02-20-2017, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by GeoJelly View Post
I still don't like the idea of any striker-fired auto hitting the floor with a round in the chamber. I've never seen or encountered an example of where that has happened - and I sure hope I don't!!
On the Glock, at least, the striker is blocked until the trigger is pulled. The striker is only partially tensioned until the trigger is pulled. The drop safety on the trigger (that little tab in the middle of the trigger) won't let the trigger move back until it's depressed. The tab does not have enough mass to move backwards with just inertia from a drop.

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I wanted to be sure before I stuffed the G33 in my waistband ...
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Old 02-20-2017, 11:14 PM
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[QUOTE=Engine49guy;139475360
Walther P38's and P4's can be as well so guessing the PPK series has the same fault when safety is off, this was fixed in the P5,

Also while not certain cant Series 70 and older 1911's drop fire if not on half cock ?
.[/QUOTE]

In the early 60s I dropped a P38 from waist high and it landed on the hammer spur and the dent was still the pine floor when we sold the house about 5 years ago. The gun didn't go bang.
On a pre 70 Colt 1911A1 with the hammer down the firing pin is not resting on the primer. Larry
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Old 02-20-2017, 11:24 PM
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In the early 60s I dropped a P38 from waist high and it landed on the hammer spur and the dent was still the pine floor when we sold the house about 5 years ago. The gun didn't go bang.
On a pre 70 Colt 1911A1 with the hammer down the firing pin is not resting on the primer. Larry
Important points:

1. As to the P38, if it landed on the hammer spur (hence the REAR of the pistol), inertia would carry the firing pin AWAY from the primer, so no surprise that the P38 did not discharge. Try that same trick with a drop on the muzzle, but when you do so, be sure you are behind a bullet proof wall.

2. As to the Colt, you are correct, with the hammer down, the firing pin is not resting on the primer. Unfortunately, that is NOT what determines whether a drop causes a discharge. The discharge comes about when you drop the pistol on the muzzle, and inertia carries the firing pin forward to strike the primer.
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Old 02-20-2017, 11:29 PM
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perhaps he was chambering a round when he dropped it. Another good reason to do it before leaving home
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Old 02-21-2017, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Engine49guy View Post
Also while not certain cant Series 70 and older 1911's drop fire if not on half cock ?
I went through a whole thing on this, a couple rather zealous 1911 fans in another subforum thought I was knocking their baby.

You can drop-fire a Series 70, but it takes some real bloody effort to do so. If the gun is in Condition One (round chambered, hammer cocked), you would need:

--a non-functioning half-cock notch, for any one of a couple reasons
--the thumb safety to be off, fit extremely poorly, or a plunger that was boogered all to hell and wasn't able to keep the thumb safety engaged

The sear doesn't even have to catch the hammer. Just snagging the half-cock notch on the way down is enough to retard the hammer sufficiently to prevent the gun from firing.

In Condition Two (round chambered, hammer down), well...I don't even know how that would work.

What about the inertial firing pin? Ned Christiansen did a test of that theory, using an empty primed case, a worst-case steel firing pin, a weak firing pin return spring, and a rig built to drop the gun squarely muzzle-down. If I remember correctly, at the longest drop they were able to test from (8 or 11 feet, one of the two...they were limited by the ceiling) the primer got a tiny dimple in it.

So basically, any 1911 that's in good working order, and passes a competent function and safety check, is nigh-impossible to drop fire. I actually think your best bet for making such a thing happen would be to use a heavy, garbage trigger (good luck actually finding a trigger this bad), and a very light trigger pull. And even then, both the thumb safety and grip safety would collude against your sabotage.

Long story short, the Series 80 is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Really well-made Series 80 pistols aren't naturally any worse than an equivalent Series 70, but it's just extra parts, imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyphil
Wyatt Earp was playing poker one night in Tombstone. He was
leaning back on the back two chair legs with the two front ones
off the floor. His revolver fell out of the holster, the hammer
hit the floor, and the gun fired. Scared Hell out of folks.
If a negligent discharge could happen to Wyatt Earp, one could
probably happen to any of us.
Well, it could happen to any of us carrying a 19th-century single-action revolver.

I doubt it could happen with a modern design.

Quote:
There have also been a few snarky and lazy responses – none of which (thus far) have offered any useful input. I suppose those respondents, with their sophomoric responses, are intending to demonstrate their superior knowledge and tactical insight regarding this situation. But, in truth, they have offered nothing at all - they've just upped their post count and little else.
Well, for one thing, if you need it, you're going to need it in a hurry.

For another, you may need your off-hand for something else. Fending off a blow, sacrificing it to a slash, pushing away an attacker, pushing a loved one behind you, holding a door shut, dialing a cell phone. In fact, there was an article in The Blue Press describing a situation where a guy died trying to hold a door shut while getting his empty-chamber pistol ready. Took his hand away to chamber a round, lost control of the door, guy pushed in and shot him.

Now--if you don't want to carry a striker-fired pistol sans external safety with a round in the chamber, that's fine! We all have different levels of comfort with different firearm actions. Don't do stuff you're not comfortable doing.

One thing you can do is study, and perhaps take a class, to attain that level of comfort. Digging into the guts of how different guns work is interesting*.

Alternatively--carry something else! We're awash in high-quality, small-size defensive handguns. Everything from shrunken 1911-pattern pistols like the Springfield EMP, to S&W J-frames with superb .38 and .357 defensive ammo, to DA/SA automatics like the Sig (or even a 'classic' S&W DA/SA!).

*Digging into how to make them work well, perfecting trigger pulls and smoothing actions and the like, is a dark path to oblivion.
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Old 02-21-2017, 07:01 AM
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Barney should not have put his bullet in.

I've been present on 4 NDs. One was at a gun show.

Something you don't forget.

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Old 02-21-2017, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly77 View Post
I'm still struggling with the idea that anybody actually patronizes Dunkin Donuts, what with their terrible coffee and mediocre doughnuts.
Never met a donut I didn't like.
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Old 02-21-2017, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by GeoJelly View Post

any Wal-Mart on the wrong side of the tracks
Aren't they all?

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Old 02-21-2017, 09:58 AM
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If you can't aford a gun that dosen't fire when you drop it, you should not carry. Or maybe he just didn't know enough to buy a decent gun. Makes responsibale CCW people look bad.
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Old 02-21-2017, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly77 View Post
I'm still struggling with the idea that anybody actually patronizes Dunkin Donuts, what with their terrible coffee and mediocre doughnuts. :roll eyes:
There is no mediocre doughnuts, some are just better than others
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Old 02-21-2017, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Old cop View Post
In an earlier post someone said they keep the chamber empty unless or until going into someplace that the weapon might be needed in a hurry. Several well thought out examples followed but allow me to be the voice of experience here. I've "been there" and can tell you there will not be enought time to chamber a round in an emergency. If that is how you carry you might think about a revolver. I don't mean any disrespect, just don't want to see anyone to get hurt.
I agree with you for the most part, but there are no absolutes.

There may not be time and opportunity to chamber a round, but there may very well be. It depends on the skill of the individual and the details of the specific scenario. I've come across some highly skilled individuals who train in the Israeli method and I would never describe them as being unprepared to defend themselves in an emergency defense scenario.

You state that you have "been there", which I take to imply that we should listen to you due to personal experience, but how many times have you "been there"? How many situations as a civilian carrying concealed? Does being victorious in a few street fights make someone an authority on combatives? Very few people have been in a significant number of gunfights. Chicago P.D's Bob Stasch has been in 14. The lessons he's taken away and subsequently recommends are to practice making headshots at close-range using one-handed point shooting. 14 gunfights is fairly substantial, yet I see very few taking his advice.

I'm by no means advocating empty-chamber carry and don't chose it myself, but I do think the idea that there will never be time is false.

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Old 02-21-2017, 10:34 AM
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[QUOTE=Jack Flash;139475248]I didn't see anything in the articles about a holster.
I wonder if it was in his waistband, sans holster, or merely in a pocket(?)


From the wording in the article,
it sounds like it's possible the gun discharged as he was clumsily attempting to retrieve it.[/QUOTE]






Right thar ya go!


Tryin to catch a fallin' pistol by the trigger....


To prevent these kinds of mishaps....
It should be common sense to have a good holster with some kind of retention devise.


When I pocket carry, I use a pocket holster. I do not put coins,
bills or anything else in that pocket with my hide-out.


If one carries a firearm, know how to operate it safely.
How and when to lawfully use it. It's just the right thing to do.




.

.
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Old 02-21-2017, 11:11 AM
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Given all of the discussion, I'm glad that I've got a 442 on layaway with the local emporium. It'll be lighter than my current pocket h/g - a Kahr CM9. I really like the CM9, it’s been 100% reliable so far, but (I hate to admit) it takes gorilla arms to chamber a round in it. I've gone back a couple of times to check out the videos linked above. Pretty informative - the one with the police officer is sorta not fair - I think most folks would be toast trying to draw anything against an attacker who is already drawn on them and ready to fire. One other video appeared to be after dark at a stop-and-rob - which just isn't a good situation to place yourself into, per my comments above.

Like prolly everyone else - I've tried to think through this (very difficult with a Barney brain ) and decided the odds favor me dropping, or otherwise fumbling, an auto with a possible ND. An ND could mean losing my CCP and also might result in firearms loss, jail time, lawsuit, the works. Doubtful but possible. I've decided to balance that very real possibility up against the slimmest of chances of being jumped by some (used to be able to say thug).

Last, but not least, I agree 100% - there is no such thing as a bad donut, it’s just that some are better than others!
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Old 02-21-2017, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by GeoJelly View Post
There have also been a few snarky and lazy responses – none of which (thus far) have offered any useful input. I suppose those respondents, with their sophomoric responses, are intending to demonstrate their superior knowledge and tactical insight regarding this situation. But, in truth, they have offered nothing at all - they've just upped their post count and little else.
Sounding a bit thin skinned there.

You said--and I quote--"...this validates my absolute rule of empty chamber outside the house if I'm carrying an auto."

So, are you saying you do carry with one in the chamber "inside" the house? Are you implying you are accident proof inside your house, or is your leg just bullet proof inside your house. Your logic in this matter escapes me entirely.

I could not care less about my post count. Seeing as I was not there to witness what happened, there is no more I could contribute to the actual incident. To do so would be speculation.

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Old 02-21-2017, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
Well, for one thing, if you need it, you're going to need it in a hurry.

For another, you may need your off-hand for something else. Fending off a blow, sacrificing it to a slash, pushing away an attacker, pushing a loved one behind you, holding a door shut, dialing a cell phone.
Do you actually train for these types of scenarios?

I repeatedly see the possibility of being involved in an extreme close-quarter defense encounter presented as a reason why C3 carry is such a bad idea, yet when I bring up ECQ Force-on-Force training, a fairly sizable percentage of the responses have been snarky and dismissive.

If an individuals self-proclaimed situational awareness, alertness and intuition is the equivalence of having a spider-sense and so honed and keen that ECQ skills will never be needed, then C3 carry actually would present no problems. And what about the tap-rack-bang? If there is never time to chamber a round at the onset of a violent encounter, how is there likely time to do a more extensive action such as TRB during it?

A lot of the comments on this topic show a lack of insight and understanding of how knife attacks or any ECQ scenario really happens. You can find countless actual knife attacks on YouTube to get a good idea of the dynamics and mechanics. All are very similar. None are remotely similar to what most traditional martial art classes(including FMA's) or basic close-quarter shooting classes teach you to defend against.

Being well trained in ECQ and carrying C3 is IMO better than carrying hot and lacking such skills. That statement is by no means an endorsement of C3 carry, but only intended to provide perspective. Of course carrying hot and having such skills is obviously ideal.

This video is often shared to demonstrate why C3 carry is such a bad idea. The problem is she is stabbed either way. I don't know about you, but I have no interest in mutual slayings. If she had employed the proper unarmed defensive tactics and movement successfully, there is a fairly good chance of having time to chamber a round although maybe not. No guarantees either way.



Looks at the dynamics of actual assaults in the beginning of this video. Then look at the demonstration of some possible solutions presented by the Michael Janich. In just about all of them, there actually would be time to rack the slide. These were not full contact FoF scenarios, but you get the idea.


C3 is far from ideal and does carry with it certain limitations that potentially could have catastrophic consequences in certain instances, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as most make it out to be. It's all a non-issue in my case since I almost always carry a snub. I do however keep my home defense autos in C3. My main point is the situations where C3 would most likely cause problems are often going to be situations where ECQ skills are of the upmost importance and it would be a good idea to get some quality training or at least be somewhat familiar with what is most likely functional and effective within that skill-set.

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Old 02-21-2017, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister X
I repeatedly see the possibility of being involved in an extreme close-quarter defense encounter presented as a reason why C3 carry is such a bad idea, yet when I bring up ECQ Force-on-Force training, a fairly sizable percentage of the responses have been snarky and dismissive.
Remember that thing I said about game theory? Same deal.

For me, carrying with a loaded chamber has no downside. I'm confident with it. Cheap, too!

What about this ECQ stuff you keep going on about? Okay, great--are you going to pay for my classes? How about my travel and lodging? Time off from work? I'm not married, but maybe for some of these other guys, you can write nice letters to their wives explaining why they need to watch the kids solo for a few days, maybe a week.

How about just practicing this stuff? Super--go find me a range within 150 miles of my current location with the facilities to allow me to do this. I'll wait.

If you feel I'm dismissive of you--and trust me, you'll know it when I am--then it's because you're advocating very expensive, hard-to-acquire training, when most people don't have the fundamentals down. And when I say, "fundamentals", read that as "basic handgun operation" and "remembering to turn the safety off".

People do not have unlimited resources, but it's very "in" to act like they do. So whether I hear the words "Simunition" or "Everyone should go to Gunsite!" or any one of a thousand other buzzwords and hard sells, I struggle not to be dismissive.

If you think I'm failing, sorry.

---

Now, this thread was about some dope managing to shoot a lady in a Dunkin Donuts. Wanna get back on topic? We can seek unity in our mutual derision of that mook.
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