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Old 03-14-2017, 12:59 PM
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A perennial Internet topic that refuses to go away is the search for the perfect bullet, capable of that all-important one-shot-stop. The search is further refined by gun type. For example, a bullet leaving a 5” Model 1911 will hit harder and have different penetration and expansion characteristics than when the same bullet is fired through a three-inch barrel. Prior to the 1960s, bullets for use in semi-autos were full metal jacket, or “ball” while ammunition loaded for revolvers were loaded with soft lead projectiles, mostly round-nose.

Here are three actual shootings that seemingly defy the odds. Owney Madden, (1891-1965) was an Irish street tough on New York’s West Side. I’m not trying to denigrate those of Irish ancestry. The fact is, if you were involved in organized crime and the rackets in the early to middle part of the twentieth century, you were probably Irish, Italian or Jewish. As such, Owney enjoyed the gangster’s lifestyle where lots of money could be made but stepping on the wrong toes usually meant a death sentence.

Owney became involved with a woman named Freda Horner. Problem is, she belonged to Little Patsy Doyle, a member of the rival Hudson Dusters. On November 6, 1912, outside a dance hall on 52nd Street in New York’s Hell’s Kitchen, three gunmen, associated with Doyle, ambushed Owney Madden with the handguns and ammunition of the era and riddled him with bullets. Owney was shot eleven times across his chest, shoulders and groin.

The gunmen fled, leaving Owney for dead but he was rushed to the hospital where doctors managed to save his life. They removed five bullets but six more remained in his body, which he carried until his death from natural causes in 1965.

Fast forward to Chicago on February 14, 1929. After years of open street warfare between the South Side Italian gang under the command of Alphonse Capone and the North Side Irish gang controlled by George “Bugs” Moran, Capone struck what he hoped would be a fatal blow to the North Side Gang at their garage, S.M.C Cartage, located at 2122 N. Clarke Street, forever known as the Saint Valentine's Day Massacre.

As luck or fate would have it, Moran was running late and a spotter misidentified one of Moran’s men as Moran himself. The trap was sprung and seven members of the North Side Gang were put against a wall and executed. The gunmen used two Thompson sub-machineguns, handguns and shotguns from a range of perhaps fifteen feet.

One of the seven victims was a guy named Frank Gusenberg. Investigators say that the killers fired a total of seventy bullets and depending on which account your read, Gusenberg caught anywhere from eight to as many as eleven of those rounds in his back, including .45 ball. When police arrived, the found Gusenberg clinging to life. However, he died of his wounds the following day.

There’s also that shooting in Cook County Illinois where a meth-head was still standing after absorbing thirty-three 9mm bullets. Rifled slugs ended that situation.

With modern or contemporary bullets, these shootings would have probably had different outcomes. Yet, I know of at least two shootings in which the victims fell stone dead from a single .25 ACP ball round. Despite what the prop department supplies to actors in mob-related movies, the weapon of choice for mob hits is the .22 rimfire. Years ago, the parents of a member of my band were involved in a long-running domestic battle. The so-called marriage boiled over and the wife pulled out a recently obtained .25 Auto and shot her husband six times in the face across the kitchen table. Each of those bullets deflected off his skull to lodge between skin and skull. He survived the shooting with relatively minor injuries.

Having the most effective ammunition available is an important part of the equation but as any police firearms instructor will tell you, the elements of surviving a shooting incident, in order of importance, are: mindset, judgment, tactics, marksmanship and firearm. A hit with a .38 Spl is more effective than fifteen misses from a 9mm. Survival does not begin and end with the gun or its ammunition. It is but one member of a “five-man team” that determines who leaves the crime scene under a sheet. Food for thought.
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Old 03-14-2017, 01:18 PM
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google Bella Twin grizzly
shot placement is key...
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Old 03-14-2017, 01:19 PM
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Magic Bullets......Heh Heh Heh. They never stop searching for a way to not have to practice shot placement. As you point out even with good placement things don't always go the way the books say.
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Old 03-14-2017, 01:30 PM
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boiled over and the wife pulled out a recently obtained .25 Auto and shot her husband six times in the face across the kitchen table. Each of those bullets deflected off his skull to lodge between skin and skull. He survived the shooting with relatively minor injuries.

A chap I worked with was shot in the face with a .25 ACP and suffered no serious injuries. The round never penetrated bone.
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Old 03-14-2017, 01:38 PM
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30 years as an LEO I saw it all and the bottom line is; you just never know. In retirement I carry either a J frame loaded w/+P or my LCP and hope I never have to use either one.
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Old 03-14-2017, 02:53 PM
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boiled over and the wife pulled out a recently obtained .25 Auto and shot her husband six times in the face across the kitchen table. Each of those bullets deflected off his skull to lodge between skin and skull. He survived the shooting with relatively minor injuries.
A chap I worked with was shot in the face with a .25 ACP and suffered no serious injuries. The round never penetrated bone.
When asked his opinion of the .25 ACP, Jeff Cooper responded:
"I'd rather be armed with a hatchet."
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Old 03-14-2017, 04:51 PM
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"One shot stop" is totally irrelevant.

No one with any training or a lick of common sense is going to shoot an assailant once, and then stop and wait to assess the results.

Instead, anyone with any training or common sense is going to keep shooting until the assailant goes down, or until the slide locks back, which ever comes first.

It might make a bit more sense to discuss bullet performance in terms of a failure to stop drill. Are you gonna shoot him twice center of mass and then transition to a head shot? Or are you going you shoot him a couple more times center mass before considering a head shot if he won't go down?

Either way you're not going to stop with just one or two shots, unless he's obviously going down.
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Old 03-14-2017, 08:16 PM
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My only goal is to cause my assailant to decide that he/she has something better to do at the moment . . .
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Old 03-14-2017, 08:26 PM
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I think people are just afraid. That's why they argue about "the best" gun, the "most effective" ammunition, and so on. They want to believe in magic bullets or techniques, and they desperately want to justify their decisions.

Some things are beyond your control. Hey--I might have a little aneurysm or brain tumor as we speak. Doesn't mean I'm going to go get an MRI tomorrow.
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Old 03-14-2017, 09:26 PM
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Nothing is 100% guaranteed. NOTHING! People have survived every full size rifle cartridge, survived 50BMG, one man survived a shot to the face with an exploding bullet. One man even survived TWO atomic bombs. Nothing is 100%

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Old 03-15-2017, 08:35 AM
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In WWII John Rigby III was shot in the head by a German sniper using 8x57 Mauser. The bullet entered his helmet at the center front and did 1 1/2 complete circuits around and exited center rear. Except for entry and exit it stayed between the liner and the steel shell.

When the Rigby Co. resumed ammo production after the war for their 275 Rigby round (a hot loaded 7x57 Mauser) they went from 140 grain spritzer bullets to 154 grain semi-spritzer bullets. They decided that better penetration was more important than 400 yard flat trajectory.

By the way Company president, John Rigby III, lived the rest of his normal and natural life with a visible dent in his forehead!

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Old 03-15-2017, 09:56 AM
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I think Paul Kearsey found the closest thing to a "one-shot stop bullet" in the movie Death Wish 3... The Wildey .475

When asked is that a .44 Magnum, he replied - "No, .44 magnum is a pistols cartridge, this is a shortened version of the African Big Game cartridge".

Can't imagine anyone - even the mythical 350 pound druggie wanting to continue the fight (if able) after being hit by one of those!
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Old 03-15-2017, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
My only goal is to cause my assailant to decide that he/she has something better to do at the moment . . .
..also known as "behavior modification". As one of my firearms instructors once said..."a firearm is the ultimate behavior modification tool". Whether you just point it or have to pull the trigger someones behavior is going to be modified...death is just a byproduct of behavior modification.

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Old 03-15-2017, 11:18 AM
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Nicely said Federali. Especially like the historical illustrations to make the very valid point.
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Old 03-15-2017, 11:33 AM
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There's also that recent case (working from memory) in Illinois, a Sgt. Grimmins, who engaged in a roadside firefight with a bank robber. I believe Grimmins fired over 30 rounds from his Glock 21, hitting the suspect some 11 times, 7 of which were torso hits, with .45 acp hollowpoints. It wasn't until he put three rounds into the face/head that the shooting stopped. The suspect still had vitals at the ER. Grimmins was on his final magazine, with just a few rounds left, when he ended the gunfight. I believe the officer now carries a Glock 17, with two 33 round sticks in addition to his two spare 17 round mags.

There's also that case (working from memory) where a state trooper shot a fat man 4 times in the torso with his .357 magnum loaded with winchester silvertips. After absorbing 4 .357 magnum hollowpoints, the fat man shot the officer once underneath the arm with his .22 mini revolver, killing the officer.

There is no magic bullet, and fights are unpredictable. Picking a good handgun, with proven ammunition, puts us many times more prepared than 90 percent of everyone else who doesn't even carry a gun.
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Old 03-15-2017, 12:03 PM
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In Ferguson, MO, officer Darren Wilson fired at Michael Brown 13 times, hitting him 7, with his .40 SIG 229, leaving one round in the chamber (13+1). In his testimony, Wilson recalled he remembered to look at the front sight for the last two rounds, and only the last one counted.

Why does mindset come first in the list? That was one of Jeff Cooper's thoughts. You must be determined to survive, even if wounded. Once that is settled, the rest comes easier - aim, shoot, repeat, until the threat ends.

I hope I never get to that situation, but if I do that it works for me.
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Old 03-15-2017, 01:55 PM
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I had a teacher in grade school who absolutely worshipped President Andrew Jackson. Say something even mildly disparaging about "Ol' Hickory" within earshot of that teacher and your days were numbered. Anyway, one day in class she talked about how physically tough Jackson was, and that he had survived numerous duels throughout his lifetime. She mentioned that at one point, Jackson carried a bullet (lead ball) in his body for many years as a result of a duel (surgeons apparently couldn't remove due to its location in his body). One day, the ball was expelled by Jackson (he probably coughed it up), and he had the ball gift wrapped and tried to return it to his opponent. Said opponent graciously returned the "gift" to Jackson due to his long and close affiliation with it. Guys had class back then - even the tough ones.

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Old 03-15-2017, 02:34 PM
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There's some new video released of a failed bank robbery in Rockford IL, that was fatal to the perpetrator.

There are three HD camera angles that give a surreal overview of normal people's lives and the terrifying violence that instantly appears.

Too graphic for here, but it's 5:21 long and published on YouTube by "Video Leak Police" under the title "♦Full♦ Bank Security Guard Involved in Robber Fatal Shooting Is Justified".

Interesting case study of surprised peoples reactions.

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Old 03-15-2017, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
My only goal is to cause my assailant to decide that he/she has something better to do at the moment . . .
My view exactly. If he runs away leaking, that's fine with me. Should make him easier for the police to track.

If he runs away without my having to shoot him, that's better still. Unlikely, but preferable.
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Old 03-15-2017, 02:53 PM
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My view exactly. If he runs away leaking, that's fine with me. Should make him easier for the police to track.

If he runs away without my having to shoot him, that's better still. Unlikely, but preferable.
The vast majority of DGUs (defensive gun uses) in the US *do not* involve a shot being fired. This according to The National Crime Victimization Survey, the gold standard survey for criminology statistics. John Lott estimates that the percentage of DGUs that involve zero shots fired is in the mid to high 90 percents. In other words, *if* you ever have to use a gun in self defense, there's around a 2-5 percent chance you'll have to actually drop the hammer.

Those are the empirical numbers on the issue.
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Old 03-15-2017, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by American1776 View Post
There's also that recent case (working from memory) in Illinois, a Sgt. Grimmins, who engaged in a roadside firefight with a bank robber. I believe Grimmins fired over 30 rounds from his Glock 21, hitting the suspect some 11 times, 7 of which were torso hits, with .45 acp hollowpoints. It wasn't until he put three rounds into the face/head that the shooting stopped. The suspect still had vitals at the ER. Grimmins was on his final magazine, with just a few rounds left, when he ended the gunfight. I believe the officer now carries a Glock 17, with two 33 round sticks in addition to his two spare 17 round mags.

There's also that case (working from memory) where a state trooper shot a fat man 4 times in the torso with his .357 magnum loaded with winchester silvertips. After absorbing 4 .357 magnum hollowpoints, the fat man shot the officer once underneath the arm with his .22 mini revolver, killing the officer.

There is no magic bullet, and fights are unpredictable. Picking a good handgun, with proven ammunition, puts us many times more prepared than 90 percent of everyone else who doesn't even carry a gun.
The incident with the 357 was that the trooper emptied his revolver. All 6 shots center mass. The man shot him once in the armpit area with a 22lr. The bullet went into the trooper's heart. The man has been in prison ever since. This happened in the early 90s. Virginia I believe

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Old 03-15-2017, 03:04 PM
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The vast majority of DGUs (defensive gun uses) in the US *do not* involve a shot being fired. This according to The National Crime Victimization Survey, the gold standard survey for criminology statistics. John Lott estimates that the percentage of DGUs that involve zero shots fired is in the mid to high 90 percents. In other words, *if* you ever have to use a gun in self defense, there's around a 2-5 percent chance you'll have to actually drop the hammer.

Those are the empirical numbers on the issue.
I wonder if that's part of the reason we have so many career criminals?
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Old 03-15-2017, 03:07 PM
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I heard that Andy Jackson story before. And I am familiar with all of those crime histories. But I admit I have always had a fascination with all things firearms related and the history of mob violence and crime as well.

Jeff Cooper was probably correct about that hatchet but in certain situations only a mouse gun will do. Easy to have with you than a hatchet. Behavior modification (love that term) is as important as almost anything in a confrontation that doesn't have to erupt into gunfire. Nobody, GENERALLY, wants to get shot.

I have often discussed on this Forum my afternoon of counter terrorism training at the Caliber 3 school in Israel (headed back there soon, too!).

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One comment from the instructor was telling so I will repeat it here. He noted that you keep shooting until the terrorist is dead. I do not believe he said "down" or "stopped", I am quite sure he said "dead". And the demonstrator, who was armed with an assortment of weapons, and had to shoot a number of targets in the demonstration, literally fired and fired and fired at every target. He never once took just one shot, and all of his shots were on the mark.

Quote:
Once that is settled, the rest comes easier - aim, shoot, repeat, until the threat ends.
At the CT school, the mindset is that "the only good terrorist is a dead terrorist" so they take no prisoners. Surviving a shootout with Israeli commandos is an unlikely event.

On a parallel note, although I have taken many years of martial arts, it was my twin brother's sensei in a shorin-ryu karate class who taught him that if he gets into a fight his job was to kill his opponent, only leaving him to tell the story. That might be a little over the top, and there are always witnesses to deal with but, still, it represents the mindset under discussion. To quote Tuco in "The Good, the bad, and the Ugly",
Quote:
if you have to shoot shoot don't talk.
So, to bring it back full circle, there is no magic bullet, and whether you are using a mouse gun or a hand cannon, if you're going to use a gun you have to make the decision that you WILL use deadly force if necessary and that means using all the force at your disposal. If the bullets are tiny, well, you might need to use a lot of them! Maybe even if they are not so tiny...........

That's just how it is.
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Old 03-15-2017, 03:08 PM
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I wonder if that's part of the reason we have so many career criminals?
I believe the reason cited for why so many DGUs don't involve any shots fire is because once the gun comes out, and the suspect sees it, he, in the words of a famous gun writer, 'reconsiders his negative attitude', and runs for his life.
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Old 03-15-2017, 03:10 PM
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I've seen black bears dropped from a tree by a single .22 mag shot in the ear. One never knows how many shots with anything will do the job.
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Old 03-15-2017, 03:35 PM
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Years ago I was told about two cases that illustrate the mental response to being shot. A steroidal body builder was shot once in the arm with a .22. He fell to the ground, totally incapacitated. A 100 pound woman was shot in the body with a .44 Magnum. It didn't faze her.

No magic bullets and no magic guns. Modern bullet construction is an improvement over the old ammunition, but never underestimate the mental condition of the attacker.
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Old 03-15-2017, 05:20 PM
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My only goal is to cause my assailant to decide that he/she has something better to do at the moment . . .
My goal is to render the assailant(s) incapable of acting on the decision to continue attacking (paralyzed) or incapable of forming the decision to continue attacking (unconscious or dead.) If they choose to quit and flee before I succeed that's desirable, but is not the goal itself. The ideal is for them to never choose me as a target in the first place.
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Old 03-15-2017, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by bigwheelzip View Post
There's some new video released of a failed bank robbery in Rockford IL, that was fatal to the perpetrator.

There are three HD camera angles that give a surreal overview of normal people's lives and the terrifying violence that instantly appears.

Too graphic for here, but it's 5:21 long and published on YouTube by "Video Leak Police" under the title "♦Full♦ Bank Security Guard Involved in Robber Fatal Shooting Is Justified".

Interesting case study of surprised peoples reactions.
Thanks for posting that. It's a really high quality video.

For me, there were four things that were very interesting about the video.

1) How quickly the security drew and fired his weapon.
2) How the security guard used a one handed grip initially to engage quickly and then as the bad guy tried to run away, switched to a two handed grip.
3) When the bad guy was shooting at the security guard from 3 feet away, the security guard didn't flinch at all.
4) How the security guard used cover to his advantage.
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Old 03-15-2017, 06:27 PM
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. . . but as any police firearms instructor will tell you, the elements of surviving a shooting incident, in order of importance, are: mindset, judgment, tactics, marksmanship and firearm. A hit with a .38 Spl is more effective than fifteen misses from a 9mm. Survival does not begin and end with the gun or its ammunition. It is but one member of a “five-man team” that determines who leaves the crime scene under a sheet. Food for thought.
The instructor quoted above perhaps advised correctly concerning where a potential victim should focus his attention, but I believe that the actual observable facts, both mirrored earlier in your post and supported by analysis of the mechanics of wounding human beings, indicate that luck ranks very high in the quintet quoted, high enough to displace one and keep it a quintet, rather than making it a sextet.
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Old 03-15-2017, 07:16 PM
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The instructor quoted above perhaps advised correctly concerning where a potential victim should focus his attention, but I believe that the actual observable facts, both mirrored earlier in your post and supported by analysis of the mechanics of wounding human beings, indicate that luck ranks very high in the quintet quoted, high enough to displace one and keep it a quintet, rather than making it a sextet.
You stole my thought! In several of the stories posted above, luck would rank higher than the other five.
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Old 03-15-2017, 07:44 PM
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... at one point, Jackson carried a bullet (lead ball) in his body for many years as a result of a duel (surgeons apparently couldn't remove due to its location in his body. ...
Given the crude technology and the appallingly low skill level of the surgeons of the those times, I wouldn't want them cutting on me either. Back then, did they even know enough to wash their hands and sterilize their tools before the operation?
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Old 03-16-2017, 12:02 AM
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The ideal is for them to never choose me as a target in the first place.
Admirable, but has nothing to do with whether or not you may have a pistol on your person. Unless you're really scary looking or open carrying (although many on this forum would claim that open carry is a reason TO attack you), you may not really have any input into that variable . . .
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Old 03-16-2017, 05:48 PM
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The incident with the 357 was that the trooper emptied his revolver. All 6 shots center mass. The man shot him once in the armpit area with a 22lr. The bullet went into the trooper's heart. The man has been in prison ever since. This happened in the early 90s. Virginia I believe

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Trooper Mark Coates, South Carolina Highway Patrol. There was dashcam video of this incident. I saw it many years ago.
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Old 03-16-2017, 05:52 PM
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I'm pretty much sold on these bullets. No HP to plug and fail to expand because they just don't need expansion to create massive wound cavities and they penetrate plenty deep to hit what's needed.

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Old 03-16-2017, 05:53 PM
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Trooper Mark Coates, South Carolina Highway Patrol. There was dashcam video of this incident. I saw it many years ago.
That's the one! It's still on YouTube. Seen it a while ago.

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Old 03-16-2017, 06:52 PM
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I'm pretty much sold on these bullets. No HP to plug and fail to expand because they just don't need expansion to create massive wound cavities and they penetrate plenty deep to hit what's needed.

Lehigh Defense - Manuf. of Bullet and Defense Ammunition Technology – Lehigh Defense, LLC

...I'm now using the Lehigh bullet loaded by Underwood in all my defensive handguns... .380, 9mm, .38 Super, .38 Special, .357 and 10mm... The only one I don't is .41 Magnum since they don't make any...

Bob
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Old 03-16-2017, 07:48 PM
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My feeling is that winning is a matter of skill and luck. The more skill you have, the less luck you'll need. If we truly believe that it is largely a matter of luck, then there's no point in conducting quarterly firearms training and trying to learn from previous shootings.
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Old 03-17-2017, 11:18 AM
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A perennial Internet topic that refuses to go away is the search for the perfect bullet, capable of that all-important one-shot-stop.
Maybe it would go away if folks would stop starting threads about it and talking about it on gun forums.

But then again, probably not.
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Old 03-17-2017, 11:28 AM
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The idea of a "one shot stop" round is like a unicorn. It does not exist. After extensive research, the FBI concluded that the concept of a "one shot stop" is a myth, UNLESS that one shot is to the cranium or upper spinal cord. And in that case, almost any round, even a .22, will do the job.

As I have posted before, start at page 7:

http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf
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Old 03-17-2017, 12:59 PM
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The incident with the 357 was that the trooper emptied his revolver. All 6 shots center mass. The man shot him once in the armpit area with a 22lr. The bullet went into the trooper's heart. The man has been in prison ever since. This happened in the early 90s. Virginia I believe

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"Trooper Mark Coates, South Carolina Highway Patrol. There was dashcam video of this incident. I saw it many years ago."

I pulled up the video and interview with the badguy and contrary to the "stories" the badguy took no "center mass" hits. He was hit in the buttocks, appendix, arm, shoulder and one that entered this shoulder and went down through his body but didn't sound from the interview that it went through his heart or lungs.

Also in watching the dashcam video the rounds did "stop" the badguy but he was able to get the one shot off during the confrontation.

The .22 bullet that killed the Trooper clipped the aorta, lost blood pressure and he went down about 15 seconds or so after he was hit...

I've talked to about ten officers I've worked with who center punched people with a .357 Magnum...no one needed second round.

Bob
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Old 03-17-2017, 01:16 PM
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"Trooper Mark Coates, South Carolina Highway Patrol. There was dashcam video of this incident. I saw it many years ago."

I pulled up the video and interview with the badguy and contrary to the "stories" the badguy took no "center mass" hits. He was hit in the buttocks, appendix, arm, shoulder and one that entered this shoulder and went down through his body but didn't sound from the interview that it went through his heart or lungs.

Also in watching the dashcam video the rounds did "stop" the badguy but he was able to get the one shot off during the confrontation.

The .22 bullet that killed the Trooper clipped the aorta, lost blood pressure and he went down about 15 seconds or so after he was hit...

I've talked to about ten officers I've worked with who center punched people with a .357 Magnum...no one needed second round.

Bob
Guess you didn't talk to this one

Officer Lim was followed by a gangbanger wanting to steal her car.  When she pulled into her driveway and exited the car, he shoved a .357 Magnum at her from about five feet away and pulled the trigger.  He didn’t miss.  In Officer Lim’s own words, the .357 bullet hit her “just left center of my chest, it went through my chest and out my back, nicked my diaphragm, my liver, my intestine, shattered my spleen, put a hole in the base of my heart, and left a tennis-ball-sized hole in my back as it exited.  It knocked me back into my car door.”

Shes still alive and killed her attacker.

Or this one

WLBT

I'm sure if I spend another few minutes I'd find more


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Old 03-17-2017, 01:19 PM
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The idea of a "one shot stop" round is like a unicorn. It does not exist. After extensive research, the FBI concluded that the concept of a "one shot stop" is a myth, UNLESS that one shot is to the cranium or upper spinal cord. And in that case, almost any round, even a .22, will do the job.

As I have posted before, start at page 7:

http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf
Other than a brain or heart shot I will bet you the meanest, toughest doped up maniac will be out of the fight with a well placed shot to the pelvis. You break that and you no longer have legs. On top of that the femoral arterys are located there
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Old 03-17-2017, 01:23 PM
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I think the gun/ammo aspect is just one part of the puzzle. As has been said, mindset, tactics, awareness, skill, etc., are all important. I practice getting quick, accurate hits on target, but that doesn't mean I ignore the effectiveness of my ammo choices. I choose effective ammo, knowing there's no guarantee they'll work. But, presuming I get good hits on target, those rounds will be more likely to stop an attacker than less effective ammo.

Of course, I do what I can to avoid being in such a scenario in the first place.

I also have contingency responses in case Plan A doesn't work.

One could say that self defense is all about balancing different probabilities. I prefer to hedge my bets whenever possible.
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Old 03-17-2017, 09:05 PM
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Guess you didn't talk to this one

Officer Lim was followed by a gangbanger wanting to steal her car.  When she pulled into her driveway and exited the car, he shoved a .357 Magnum at her from about five feet away and pulled the trigger.  He didn’t miss.  In Officer Lim’s own words, the .357 bullet hit her “just left center of my chest, it went through my chest and out my back, nicked my diaphragm, my liver, my intestine, shattered my spleen, put a hole in the base of my heart, and left a tennis-ball-sized hole in my back as it exited.  It knocked me back into my car door.”

Shes still alive and killed her attacker.

Or this one

WLBT

I'm sure if I spend another few minutes I'd find more


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...couldn't talk to him...she killed him...and yes I remember that case very well and have read about other .357 failures to stop.

But as indicated above take all failures to stop with a grain of salt until you see the whole report.... As posted above one would be lead to believe the office had run into zombie...when in reality the bullets did just what they would be expected to do under the shooting angles involved...

Bob

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Old 03-18-2017, 04:06 PM
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I refer you to:

Berg, Ralph, Jr., M.D., "The Shot That Anchors," Rifle Magazine, July-August, 1975. Wolf Publishing, pages 30-31, 61.

Dr. Berg discusses and analyzes "rear-end" shot on game with emphasis on its effectiveness on dangerous game. His rear-end shot is the pelvis and immediately surrounding cardiovascular and nervous system.

Parenthetically, I think I remember that 30 Mauser and 9x19 mm metal case bullets' effectiveness during the Thompson-La Garde Report of 1904 was noted because their impact on major bone structures created secondary missiles - bone fragments - that larger, slower bullets did not.

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Other than a brain or heart shot I will bet you the meanest, toughest doped up maniac will be out of the fight with a well placed shot to the pelvis. You break that and you no longer have legs. On top of that the femoral arterys are located there

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Old 03-18-2017, 05:11 PM
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Other than a brain or heart shot I will bet you the meanest, toughest doped up maniac will be out of the fight with a well placed shot to the pelvis. You break that and you no longer have legs. On top of that the femoral arterys are located there
The only problem with that is immobilization of the attacker's legs with a pelvic shot doesn't prevent him from firing a gun. While it can be an effective target, the context of the situation is important.

I knew a paramedic who told me an interesting story. He said he responded to a call where a guy on PCP was hit by a car while walking. The impact broke his femur. The only thing on the guy's mind was that he couldn't figure out why he couldn't get up and walk away. He had no clue his leg was broken. If such a person were attacking me with a gun, I wouldn't count on a pelvic shot keeping him from shooting at me. If he were attacking me with an impact weapon or knife and his pelvis was the only/best target available, then it could work. Context is important.
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