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Old 03-19-2017, 04:57 PM
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Driving into town a couple days ago, I went through a driver's license checkpoint manned by two of our NC State Troopers. The young trooper who approached my vehicle looked to be in his early 20's. It went like this:

HIM: Good morning sir, may I see your license?

ME: (with both hands on the wheel) Yes, but first let me tell you that I
have a concealed carry permit, and my gun is to my right,
beside the console. My license is in my right hip pocket.

HIM: OK, I appreciate you telling me, and I appreciate you carrying. You
might save my life someday.

ME: You never can tell.

HIM: (after checking my license) Have a good day, sir.

ME: Thanks, you too.

Not the first time I've been thanked by a LEO for carrying...
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Old 03-19-2017, 05:01 PM
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Good job!! I thank you for carrying too!! I might be driving through NC one day and you might save my life too.

Best Regards, Les
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Old 03-19-2017, 05:08 PM
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Same happened.to me in Kernersville NC last fall.

After informing him of the weapon on my person he asked "Is it loaded".
I said yes..he said "good never carry an empty weapon"....

We laughed and he checked my DL and tag and said stay safe and i was on my way..

Has happened twice and both times were without any problem at all.
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Old 03-19-2017, 05:15 PM
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I handled my only LEO interaction since CC'ing the same as you. These were the Tribal Police in Cherokee, NC, and they were equally polite.

Of course, and old woman driving with a handicapped placard hanging from the rearview mirror probably doesn't fit the profile that sets off alarm bells.
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Old 03-19-2017, 05:28 PM
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I handled my only LEO interaction since CC'ing the same as you. These were the Tribal Police in Cherokee, NC, and they were equally polite.

Of course, and old woman driving with a handicapped placard hanging from the rearview mirror probably doesn't fit the profile that sets off alarm bells.


I looked all over, but don't see the handicapped placard!!

(Just kidding!!! Couldn't help it!! Remembered this picture from the bicycle thread!!)

Best Regards, Les
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Old 03-19-2017, 05:53 PM
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Glad to hear the above stories. If I'm ever stopped by an officer I hope for the same outcome.
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Old 03-19-2017, 05:54 PM
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"Driver license" checkpoints? They're illegal as far as I know. Are you sure it wasn't a DUI checkpoint?

Never mind, I guess maybe they are legal....but they shouldn't be....

Last edited by RSanch111; 03-19-2017 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 03-19-2017, 06:04 PM
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Remembered this picture from the bicycle thread!!
Oh no, my checkered past as a biker chick comes back to haunt me!

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Old 03-19-2017, 06:06 PM
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"Driver license" checkpoints? They're illegal as far as I know. Are you sure it wasn't a DUI checkpoint?

Never mind, I guess maybe they are legal....but they shouldn't be....
Yep, in NC they're "legal." All my interactions with Leo in NC have been equally pleasent.

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...North Carolina takes this a step further and allows random checkpoints to detect violations of any motor vehicle law as long as the specific purpose of the roadblock is to detect traffic violations. They cannot be used for general crime control, but can be used to detect unobservable motor vehicle violations such as unlicensed or suspended drivers and vehicle registration issues. No warrant is required, all they need is a written policy for stopping and questioning drivers in a set pattern that removes the discretion of individual officers. Typically the policy will say stop every vehicle and have a contingency that says something like stop every 10th vehicle if traffic begins to back up. In theory, it should eliminate an officer’s ability to single out people based on sex, race, ethnicity, social status etc. The policy does not have to be on-hand and they can adopt the policy of another agency, It’s a pretty loose standard...
Can the police use random checkpoints in North Carolina? | MINICK LAW

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Old 03-19-2017, 07:19 PM
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Checkpoints are legal in all the states I've lived in as long as they stop and at least do a cursory check on every vehicle.

My last "offense" (yes, I did something not illegal in my home state, but illegal where I live now) went much the same. Discussion turned form my offense to the range bags in the back, and getting stuff out for show and tell. I got a verbal warning, but the officer stops at the same coffee shop on Saturday, so he'll remember me if I trangress again.
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Old 03-19-2017, 07:47 PM
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Good job!! I thank you for carrying too!! I might be driving through NC one day and you might save my life too.

Best Regards, Les
On the way to HERE I would hope!
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Old 03-19-2017, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by RSanch111 View Post
"Driver license" checkpoints? They're illegal as far as I know. Are you sure it wasn't a DUI checkpoint?
Correct, not legal. Not even for DUI checks.

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Originally Posted by hoc9sw View Post
Checkpoints are legal in all the states I've lived in as long as they stop and at least do a cursory check on every vehicle.
Nope, not even if they do it for every vehicle "just to make it fair".

Before everyone jumps on me with numerous "case law" decisions, I know that courts have ruled them legal. Even so, it is a clear violation of the 4th amendment:
Quote:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
This amendment is as simple as the second and has been just as trampled on. It is clear that without probable cause, they can't search you, for ANYTHING.

This kind of search is exactly why the 4th was included in the bill of rights. Over the years the courts have allowed this kind of thing because it's popular with the terrified public. Random searches are illegal and don't prevent any crime.

OK, I'm off my soapbox now.

You handled it well and so did the police officer. I wish everyone could be that reasonable.
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Correct, not legal. Not even for DUI checks.

Nope, not even if they do it for every vehicle "just to make it fair".

Before everyone jumps on me with numerous "case law" decisions, I know that courts have ruled them legal. Even so, it is a clear violation of the 4th amendment:
This amendment is as simple as the second and has been just as trampled on. It is clear that without probable cause, they can't search you, for ANYTHING.

This kind of search is exactly why the 4th was included in the bill of rights. Over the years the courts have allowed this kind of thing because it's popular with the terrified public. Random searches are illegal and don't prevent any crime.

OK, I'm off my soapbox now.

You handled it well and so did the police officer. I wish everyone could be that reasonable.
Rastoff....if i show this post to the Kernersville PD will you post my bail?...lol
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:45 PM
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While I would never antagonize or provoke any LEO, I would never volunteer any info that wasn't asked at a checkpoint that violates the Constitution!
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:54 PM
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While I would never antagonize or provoke any LEO, I would never volunteer any info that wasn't asked at a checkpoint that violates the Constitution!
Understandable, but you might want to take into consideration the fact that NC law requires that you furnish that specific information whether you are asked or not.
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:55 PM
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Correct, not legal. Not even for DUI checks.

Nope, not even if they do it for every vehicle "just to make it fair".

Before everyone jumps on me with numerous "case law" decisions, I know that courts have ruled them legal. Even so, it is a clear violation of the 4th amendment:
This amendment is as simple as the second and has been just as trampled on. It is clear that without probable cause, they can't search you, for ANYTHING.

This kind of search is exactly why the 4th was included in the bill of rights. Over the years the courts have allowed this kind of thing because it's popular with the terrified public. Random searches are illegal and don't prevent any crime.

OK, I'm off my soapbox now.

You handled it well and so did the police officer. I wish everyone could be that reasonable.
For what it's worth, the supreme court has ruled DUI check points to be unconstitutional but acceptable for the "common good", which makes them legal in most states unless that state doesn't feel that way.
I've never heard of a state that conducts random DL checkpoints.
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:58 PM
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Understandable, but you might want to take into consideration the fact that NC law requires that you furnish that specific information whether you are asked or not.
NC isn't a "must inform" state, is it?
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Old 03-19-2017, 11:02 PM
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NC isn't a "must inform" state, is it?
Yes, it is.
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Old 03-19-2017, 11:47 PM
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Yep, in NC they're "legal." All my interactions with Leo in NC have been equally pleasent.


Can the police use random checkpoints in North Carolina? | MINICK LAW

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The Sitz case in Michigan went to the Supreme Court. As I recall, the rationale was that the reason DUI checkpoints were legal was because society's right to be free from drunk drivers outweighed the right of drivers to be free from the relatively minor inconvenience of the stop. As long as the stops weren't arbitrary or random. They had to be every car or every tenth car, etc. There are no states where "random" stops are constitutional.

When it comes to driver license checkpoints, I think the case is Brown V. Texas. In that case a guy was stopped and contraband was found in plain view. Trouble was, they never contested the constitutionality of the initial stop. If that made it to the US Supreme Court, ie. the license checkpoint aspect, I think the court would have said "nope".

We'll have to wait for someone to get busted for something major that's worth appealing and appealing for ten years or so to get a high court ruling on that one. But based on their rational for DUI checkpoints, I'd say they'd rule against driver license checkpoints. If it ever gets to that point...I don't think society's right to be free from unlicensed or suspended drivers outweighs the inconvenience of the stop.

The ironic thing about Sitz was that in Michigan, the appealed it all the way to the supreme court, saying that DUI checkpoints should be legal. After the high court ruled in FAVOR of Michigan, Michigan changed it's mind and said: "Nope, they're not legal." So the state that appealed the case and made it "legal" in the rest of the land, changed course and said: "Yeah....but not here after all....."

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Old 03-19-2017, 11:55 PM
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PS: Rastoff, cops don't need probable cause to search your car for weapons, they only need "reasonable suspicion". Anything they find after that is fair game. Also, in the vast majority of circumstances with a car, cops don't need "probable cause plus exigent circumstances". The "car" part is presumed, in most cases, to equal "exigent circumstances". So probable cause is enough...Unless they have the lower standard of "reasonable suspicion" for weapons.

In most other cases, cops need either a warrant or probable cause PLUS exigent circumstances for a search to be valid. When they have a warrant, the search is presumed to be valid. When they DON'T have a warrant, the search is presumed to be INvalid and the cops have to show that they had an accepted exception to the search warrant rule. Google; Exceptions to the search warrant rule and exclusionary rule.

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Old 03-20-2017, 12:14 AM
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PS: Rastoff, cops don't need probable cause to search your car for weapons, they only need "reasonable suspicion". Anything they find after that is fair game. Also, in the vast majority of circumstances with a car, cops don't need "probable cause plus exigent circumstances". The "car" part is presumed, in most cases, to equal "exigent circumstances". So probable cause is enough...Unless they have the lower standard of "reasonable suspicion" for weapons.

In most other cases, cops need either a warrant or probable cause PLUS exigent circumstances for a search to be valid. When they have a warrant, the search is presumed to be valid. When they DON'T have a warrant, the search is presumed to be INvalid and the cops have to show that they had an accepted exception to the search warrant rule. Google; Exceptions to the search warrant rule and exclusionary rule.
I believe you are wrong.

1. Other than check points(in NC), you can't be stopped.
2. You have a right to say no to a search of your vehicle when asked.
3. Unless they see something illeagl in plain view, they would have to get a warrant to search which is beyond reasonable suspicion.

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Old 03-20-2017, 12:39 AM
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...unconstitutional but acceptable for the "common good",...
Read this phrase closely and consider what it means. You are correct that this has happened. It's very existence means that the constitution has little value anymore. So, if quartering troops in your house is acceptable for the common good, do we just sit by and accept it?

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PS: Rastoff, cops don't need probable cause to search your car for weapons, they only need "reasonable suspicion".
As I said previously, this stuff has been ruled acceptable. It's violently opposed to the concept and meaning of the 4th amendment. Besides, it's just semantics. What's the difference between probable cause and reasonable suspicion? It's just lawyer speak to say they don't really need probable cause.
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:45 AM
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Read this phrase closely and consider what it means. You are correct that this has happened. It's very existence means that the constitution has little value anymore. So, if quartering troops in your house is acceptable for the common good, do we just sit by and accept it?

As I said previously, this stuff has been ruled acceptable. It's violently opposed to the concept and meaning of the 4th amendment. Besides, it's just semantics. What's the difference between probable cause and reasonable suspicion? It's just lawyer speak to say they don't really need probable cause.
The 4th amendment doesn't prohibit warrantless searches. It prohibits unreasonable searches and says warrants will not be issued without probable cause, among a few other things. Key word: "Reasonable". I think it's reasonable to allow cops to search without a warrant as long as they have probable cause plus exigent circumstances. I also reluctantly think DUI checkpoints are reasonable. I absolutely don't think driver license checkpoints are reasonable.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:45 PM
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You're right RSanch111, it does say reasonable. I think stopping, or arresting my progress, without some probable reason specifically about me, is unreasonable.

I agree, stopping people just to check for their ID is unreasonable. I think requiring a patron of a drinking establishment to submit to a breathalyzer as they leave, reasonable. I do not find stopping random people on the road, just to "see" if they're intoxicated, reasonable.

Unfortunately, "reasonable" is extremely ambiguous. Also unfortunately, it's everywhere in the law. As long as reasonable people sit back and allow the courts to make unreasonable rulings, we'll continue to deal with this stupidity.

PMRet and the policeman he met are both reasonable people. That is obvious by how their encounter played out. The establishment that requires that policeman to stop random people is not reasonable and should be disciplined as well as schooled on the meaning of liberty.

I'll leave this alone now.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:18 PM
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I handled my only LEO interaction since CC'ing the same as you. These were the Tribal Police in Cherokee, NC, and they were equally polite.

Of course, and old woman driving with a handicapped placard hanging from the rearview mirror probably doesn't fit the profile that sets off alarm bells.
The old woman with the handicapped placard could/should set off alarm bells, because that very same placard notes it's to be removed from the mirror bracket while driving. And I reckon the judge would dismiss the charge, and scowl fiercely at the officer who wrote her up for such an offense----unless he was recently reelected. Then, all bets are off!!

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Old 03-20-2017, 11:52 PM
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While I don't necessarily agree with the premise of licence checks, I took the approach that the young trooper was "just doing his job", "following orders", or whatever you want to call it. He was very respectful, and I tried to be, as well.

Under North Carolina law I was required to inform him that I was armed, and so I did. Again, he didn't make the law. Besides, both my license and my weapon were at my right hip, and I wanted to make sure he knew I was reaching for my license.

The fact that he appreciated me carrying reflects the same attitude I have encountered with virtually every LEO I've spoken with on the subject. That, to me, is a good thing...
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Old 03-21-2017, 06:59 AM
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The old woman with the handicapped placard could/should set off alarm bells, because that very same placard notes it's to be removed from the mirror bracket while driving.
I know, I know, I'm a reckless scofflaw.

Then, when i remove it, I forget to re-display when parking, and get dinged. Luckily, the officials in charge have been understanding, and pulled the tickets.
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Old 03-21-2017, 08:53 AM
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For what it's worth, the supreme court has ruled DUI check points to be unconstitutional but acceptable for the "common good", which makes them legal in most states unless that state doesn't feel that way.
I've never heard of a state that conducts random DL checkpoints.
The state of CT does this ALL OF THE TIME!!
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Incorrect, not illegal.
...fixed it for ya!

US Supreme Court: Michigan Department of State Police v. Sitz (No. 88-1897)

Held: Petitioner's highway sobriety checkpoint program is consistent with the Fourth Amendment. Pp. 448-455.

Michigan Dep't of State Police v. Sitz | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:02 AM
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Texas used to do license checks quite frequently when I was younger. Every vehicle on a particular road would be stopped and the driver asked for a license. At some point that stopped, as I recall due to some court decision or other.

The only checkpoints I'm aware of in Texas now are the immigration checkpoints near the Mexican border. These aren't conducted by police officers, but rather by CBP. I, like many, believe these to be unconstitutional, but evidently the courts have ruled otherwise, so I stop and answer the questions along with everyone else. "Are you an American citizen?" Yes. "Is everyone else in the vehicle citizens or legal residents?" Yes. Then once the drug sniffing dog finishes its job, "Please proceed. Have a nice day." No ID is asked for or shown.

I imagine they catch more drug smugglers this way than they do illegal border crossers.

Hmm . . . random thought/question. I am always armed at the checkpoints, but have never informed the officer. Texas law requires that we inform law enforcement if we are stopped. I suppose I have technically broken the law several times. I just never really thought about it before. I guess next time I had better tell them just in case.

EDIT
Doing a bit of research I found that they are not authorized to enforce state law, so I'll just keep my mouth shut.

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Old 03-21-2017, 11:31 AM
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"Are you an American citizen?" Yes. "Is everyone else in the vehicle citizens or legal residents?"
Do you ever look around the inside of your car before you answer that one? Next time, when they ask that, toward the direction of your trunk: "Javier, are you a citizen?? Knock once for yes, two for no!"
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:37 AM
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The establishment that requires that policeman to stop random people is not reasonable and should be disciplined as well as schooled on the meaning of liberty.

I'll leave this alone now.
That's one part that makes checkpoints "reasonable". They DON'T stop random people. If the stops were random or arbitrary, they WOULD be unconstitutional seizures. The court determined in Sitz that the stops were reasonable in the effort to protect the public from drunk drivers as long as they stopped every car, or every tenth car, etc. I think the reason why license checkpoints are still being considered "constitutional" is because they haven't been challenged yet. In Brown V Texas, the initial reason for the stop (license checkpoint) was never challenged at the lower levels so the Supreme Court didn't address it. Mr. Brown had a crappy lawyer. I'm not even a lawyer and that's the first thing I would have challenged.
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve912 View Post
...fixed it for ya!

US Supreme Court: Michigan Department of State Police v. Sitz (No. 88-1897)

Held: Petitioner's highway sobriety checkpoint program is consistent with the Fourth Amendment. Pp. 448-455.

Michigan Dep't of State Police v. Sitz | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute
Interestingly, although Sitz was a MI case, DWI checkpoints are not "legal" in MI. MI took the case all the way to the Supreme Court and then changed it's mind: "Mmmmm, nah, we're not going to do those here..."
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Kodiakco View Post
I believe you are wrong.

1. Other than check points(in NC), you can't be stopped.
2. You have a right to say no to a search of your vehicle when asked.
3. Unless they see something illeagl in plain view, they would have to get a warrant to search which is beyond reasonable suspicion.

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Nope. I'm right in response to Rastoff saying police can not search without probable cause. That's basic search and seizure stuff. Google "Motor Vehicle Exception to Search Warrant Rule". It will give you all the case law. You have a right to say "no" to ANYthing the cops ask. If they have probable cause to believe you have evidence of a crime or contraband, or reasonable suspicions to believe you're armed and potentially dangerous, they're going to search, and they can do it without a warrant. Recently the Supreme Court HAS reigned in the government as far as the scope of where they can search incident to arrest in AZ. V Gant (I think that was it), but there are still various exceptions to the search warrant rule such as Motor Vehicle/Exigent Circumstances. No warrant needed for a motor vehicle on the road as long as there's probable cause for evidence or contraband or reasonable suspicion for weapons.

Another example, if someone calls the cops as says: "My name is John Doe and my number is 234-4565 and the guy in line at the DWI checkpoint in Green Chevy with the dent in the left door has a bail of marijuana in the trunk", that's probable cause for a warrantless search.

Oh, also, the cops don't need a reason to compel you to get out of the car on a valid traffic stop either. A lot of people talk themselves into an arrest and a search by refusing to get out of the car. "Step out of the car sir." "Huh? No, you can't make me get out of the car." "OK, you're under arrest for refusing to comply with a lawful order." Then we search them incident to arrest and do an inventory search of their car and may or may not arrest them.

Last edited by RSanch111; 03-21-2017 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:50 AM
brjr51 brjr51 is offline
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Curious if there is some sort of safety campaign or MADD fundraiser this time of year. I work night shift and drive past an Illinois State Police station on my way to work and for the last few years just about every Saturday night in March and April they are running checkpoints there. Never see it any other time of year, just March and April.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:02 PM
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Curious if there is some sort of safety campaign or MADD fundraiser this time of year. I work night shift and drive past an Illinois State Police station on my way to work and for the last few years just about every Saturday night in March and April they are running checkpoints there. Never see it any other time of year, just March and April.
What would a MADD fundraiser have to do with it? The feds release grant funds around this time of year for DWI enforcement... Maybe around St. Pat's Day? Also for 4th of July, Memorial Day, etc.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:44 PM
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Maybe MADD awards or recognition would be a better term. Wouldn't that help with Fed grants to get special recognition from groups like that.
And it has nothing to do with holidays right now, they have it set up almost every Saturday night for about a two month period in March and April.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:49 PM
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Nope. I'm right in response to Rastoff saying police can not search without probable cause. That's basic search and seizure stuff. Google "Motor Vehicle Exception to Search Warrant Rule". It will give you all the case law. You have a right to say "no" to ANYthing the cops ask. If they have probable cause to believe you have evidence of a crime or contraband, or reasonable suspicions to believe you're armed and potentially dangerous, they're going to search, and they can do it without a warrant. Recently the Supreme Court HAS reigned in the government as far as the scope of where they can search incident to arrest in AZ. V Gant (I think that was it), but there are still various exceptions to the search warrant rule such as Motor Vehicle/Exigent Circumstances. No warrant needed for a motor vehicle on the road as long as there's probable cause for evidence or contraband or reasonable suspicion for weapons.

Another example, if someone calls the cops as says: "My name is John Doe and my number is 234-4565 and the guy in line at the DWI checkpoint in Green Chevy with the dent in the left door has a bail of marijuana in the trunk", that's probable cause for a warrantless search.

Oh, also, the cops don't need a reason to compel you to get out of the car on a valid traffic stop either. A lot of people talk themselves into an arrest and a search by refusing to get out of the car. "Step out of the car sir." "Huh? No, you can't make me get out of the car." "OK, you're under arrest for refusing to comply with a lawful order." Then we search them incident to arrest and do an inventory search of their car and may or may not arrest them.
I disagree in regards to reasonable suspicion.
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Reasonable suspicion is the legal standard by which a police officer has the right to briefly detain a suspect for investigatory purposes and frisk the outside of their clothing for weapons, but not drugs. While many factors contribute to a police officer’s level of authority in a given situation, the reasonable suspicion standard requires facts or circumstances that would lead a reasonable person to believe that a suspect has, is, or will commit a crime.

While reasonable suspicion does not require hard evidence, it does require more than a hunch. A combination of particular facts, even if each is individually insignificant, can form the basis of reasonable suspicion. For example, police may have reasonable suspicion to detain someone who fits a description of a criminal suspect, a suspect who drops a suspicious object after seeing police, or a suspect in a high crime area who runs after seeing police.
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Old 03-21-2017, 01:57 PM
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While I would never antagonize or provoke any LEO, I would never volunteer any info that wasn't asked at a checkpoint that violates the Constitution!

In NC, if stopped by L/E you are required to notify them you are carrying, or have a firearm in the passenger area of the car.
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Old 03-21-2017, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by RSanch111 View Post
... Then we search them incident to arrest and do an inventory search of their car and may or may not arrest them.
...SEARCH is inconsistent with the lawful 'inventory.'

You are otherwise spot on in your response. Cheers!

Be safe.
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Old 03-21-2017, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by cgt4570 View Post
While I would never antagonize or provoke any LEO, I would never volunteer any info that wasn't asked at a checkpoint that violates the Constitution!

Yes in NC state law dictates you inform...if you don't and they happen to run your drivers license for any reason it comes back as being registered to a Concealed Carry Licensed person.....
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Old 03-21-2017, 02:53 PM
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In NC, if stopped by L/E you are required to notify them you are carrying, or have a firearm in the passenger area of the car.
§ 14-415.11.  Permit to carry concealed handgun; scope of permit.

(a)        Any person who has a concealed handgun permit may carry a concealed handgun unless otherwise specifically prohibited by law. The person shall carry the permit together with valid identification whenever the person is carrying a concealed handgun, shall disclose to any law enforcement officer that the person holds a valid permit and is carrying a concealed handgun when approached or addressed by the officer, and shall display both the permit and the proper identification upon the request of a law enforcement officer. 



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Old 03-21-2017, 02:58 PM
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Doesn't it make a difference that you are driving a motor vehicle on a publicly-funded roadway? To me, driving on a public roadway is a privilege, not a right, and therefore I am subject to a bit more scrutiny such as driver's license checks, etc.. ???
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Old 03-21-2017, 04:01 PM
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Men, I am 70 years old, and have learned a few things. I have worked thousands of hours with the S.C.H.P. From my personal experience it is never a good idea to argue your point beside the highway, that's what the court is for. MOST of the time in this county the court will discount points or fines or both. Unless the trooper tells the Judge you gave him a hard time. Then it's Katy barred the door.
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Old 03-21-2017, 08:49 PM
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...SEARCH is inconsistent with the lawful 'inventory.'

You are otherwise spot on in your response. Cheers!

Be safe.
TBD, I understand what you're saying regarding the reasons for using using "inventory" as a verb as opposed to "search", however, the term "inventory search" is used by the Supreme Court justices in their decisions affirming the authority of the police to do "inventory searches" in many cases, so I think it's not a big deal if a cop said he conducted an "inventory search" as opposed to an "inventory" of an impounded vehicle: Colorado v. Bertine (full text) :: 479 U.S. 367 (1987) :: Justia U.S. Supreme Court Center
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Old 03-21-2017, 08:57 PM
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I disagree in regards to reasonable suspicion.


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Kodiak,

The standard for searching the inside of a car for weapons within reaching distance of the driver or passengers is the same standard for a "Terry Search", or "stop and frisk". That standard is the lower standard of "reasonable suspicion", not "probable cause".
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by brjr51 View Post
Maybe MADD awards or recognition would be a better term. Wouldn't that help with Fed grants to get special recognition from groups like that.
And it has nothing to do with holidays right now, they have it set up almost every Saturday night for about a two month period in March and April.
I have no idea... Around here, the MADD awards are usually just given to guys who arrest the most drunks or departments with some kind of innovative victims' assistance program, etc. I don't think it has anything to do with an organized effort to arrest drunks. Departments don't HAVE to use their federal traffic enforcement money on any particular day or weekend as long as they participate in mandated days, like 4th of July, New Years Eve, etc.
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:14 PM
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Kodiak,

The standard for searching the inside of a car for weapons within reaching distance of the driver or passengers is the same standard for a "Terry Search", or "stop and frisk". That standard is the lower standard of "reasonable suspicion", not "probable cause".
I disagree. No where have I found that an Officer can search a vehicle during a Terry stop. The occupants themselves yes, but not the vehicle.

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Old 03-21-2017, 10:30 PM
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I disagree. No where have I found that an Officer can search a vehicle during a Terry stop. The occupants themselves yes, but not the vehicle.

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They can search within reaching distance. If they have reasonable suspicion that there's a gun under the seat, they can search under the seat. It would make no sense for the court to allow an officer to search someone's "person" for weapons but not under the seat of the car he's sitting on, or anywhere else he could grab a weapon. Standard is the same as for any Terry search; Reasonable Suspicion. From the US Supreme Court decision in MI v. Long:

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2. The protective search of the passenger compartment of respondent's car was reasonable under the principles articulated in Terry and other decisions of this Court. Although Terry involved the stop and subsequent patdown search for weapons of a person suspected of criminal activity, it did not restrict the preventive search to the person of the detained suspect. Protection of police and others can justify protective searches when police have a reasonable belief that the suspect poses a danger. Roadside encounters between police and suspects are especially hazardous, and danger may arise from the possible presence of weapons in the area surrounding a suspect. Thus, the search of the passenger compartment of an automobile, limited to those areas in which a weapon may be placed or hidden, is permissible if the police officer possesses a reasonable belief based on specific and articulable facts which, taken together with the rational inferences from those facts, reasonably warrant the officer to believe that the suspect is dangerous and the suspect may gain immediate control of weapons.

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Old 03-22-2017, 10:05 AM
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Default I stand corrected! My apology to...

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Originally Posted by RSanch111 View Post
TBD, I understand what you're saying regarding the reasons for using using "inventory" as a verb as opposed to "search", however, the term "inventory search" is used by the Supreme Court justices in their decisions affirming the authority of the police to do "inventory searches" in many cases, so I think it's not a big deal if a cop said he conducted an "inventory search" as opposed to an "inventory" of an impounded vehicle: Colorado v. Bertine (full text) :: 479 U.S. 367 (1987) :: Justia U.S. Supreme Court Center
...RSanch111 for suggesting his post was somewhat incorrect. And I thank him for not making me appear to be a complete idiot.

No explanation for my error save the fact we (per policy) always used the term 'inventory' to avoid any suggestion it was other than that...an administrative procedure. However, please note the post of RSanch111 is absolutely correct.

Be safe.
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