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Old 03-27-2017, 07:33 PM
Houlton Houlton is offline
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Just finished watching a show that promoted a 9mm carbine for home defense. The show has also talked about tactics for "clearing" your home for burglars. Having a gun that comes through a door 2' before you to me is almost as ridiculous as trying to search your house by yourself. Someone breaks in your home you put yourself between your family and whatever threat is there and call 911. One, any Police Officer on this thread will tell you one person can't do this safely. Two, you don't leave your family so satisfy your ego you are a real man and can do this. You are there to stop anyone getting to people who are depending on you to protect them. Sorry about the rant. Just get tired of shows that promote things that can get people hurt.
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Old 03-27-2017, 07:44 PM
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Nothing beats the sound of racking a pump shotgun in the quiet hours of dark til dawn..not much better than a 19 inch pump to get the message across that you came to the wrong address......
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Old 03-27-2017, 07:49 PM
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The best defense is a strong offense! A few large loyal and otherwise mean dogs are a good first line of defense.

My plan is to park myself at or neat the top of the stairs with a pump shotgun. If you insist on metallic cartridges, I like M-1 Carbines or a M-4 and they are very close to the same size.

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Old 03-27-2017, 07:50 PM
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Just wake up my misses. She's a pitbull when woken up during the night.

First line defense, dog. He's the alarm that something is not right outside.
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Old 03-27-2017, 07:55 PM
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I think a 9mm carbine is a fine firearm and would certainly do well defending any home, provided its owner is proficient with it.

Having said that, I completely agree with you:

1) I'm not one to be playing SWAT Team, that's really dumb unless you really absolutely need to (ie. your children are on the other side of the house).

2) I'd choose a shotgun and a revolver.
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:03 PM
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Can't beat an old Model 12 riot gun and #4 buckshot.

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Old 03-27-2017, 08:07 PM
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Really, there is nothing wrong with a high capacity 9mm carbine being operated by someone who is proficient with it.
House clearing? If able, better left to the authorities.
If that's not a viable option, pick your best weapon and make your house safe.
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by sheepdawg View Post
Can't beat an old Model 12 riot gun and #4 buckshot.

^^^^ +1. My grandfather's Model 12 served him and my father well. I don't shoot it much, but when I do, it continues to serve its purpose.
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:40 PM
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I agree.

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Old 03-27-2017, 09:11 PM
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Methods and weapons used for Home defense is gonna depend on who lives with you in the home you will defend.
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Old 03-27-2017, 09:23 PM
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One or two intruders, OK.

A mob? You'll have to run out the back door.
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Old 03-27-2017, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dben002 View Post
Nothing beats the sound of racking a pump shotgun in the quiet hours of dark til dawn..not much better than a 19 inch pump to get the message across that you came to the wrong address......
I used to think that way too. The one sound that will beat the rack of the pump is the intruder shooting you because his was already loaded. Just my 2 cents.

12ga pump loaded with double 0 buck.

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Old 03-27-2017, 09:44 PM
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Give yourself the advantage and let the bad guy find you. Then you can give him the shock of his life!
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Old 03-28-2017, 12:19 AM
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I definitely have shot guns-but I also have a Marlin Camp 9 with the Choate folding stock and a 30 MM red dot, plus a couple of bags of mags-some 30 rounders, that also fit my Model 59 S&W along with beau coup rounds. Pistol caliber carbines are easy for anyone to use. A 357 lever gun with a red dot is good too-woman-kid-older person-whatever.
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Old 03-28-2017, 02:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dben002 View Post
Nothing beats the sound of racking a pump shotgun in the quiet hours of dark til dawn..not much better than a 19 inch pump to get the message across that you came to the wrong address......
Super--while you're busy playing with your noisemaker trying to scare him off, a serious opponent will be busy noting your position and armament, if not putting a few rounds through the wall at you.

You're in a fight for your life. Don't give away any information or advantage.

Tell you the truth, I'm somewhat puzzled as to the permanent affinity for the shotgun. It's not aim-free, it can be short-stroked, it's bulky, the capacity is extremely limited, and it's very slow to reload.

Personally, I feel that the "best" option starts with whatever firearm the likely user is most familiar with. Maybe it's a shotgun of some sort, but a full-size pistol, large-frame revolver (a 629 loaded with .44 Specials, for instance), or pistol-caliber carbine would do just fine. I'd probably discount leverguns and single-action revolvers, though.
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Old 03-28-2017, 07:06 AM
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I would not feel defenseless if all I had was my Beretta CX4 carbine...... with 20rds of 9mm at my disposal.

Rather have it than a pistol gripped shotgun......... never timed it but believe I could get off 4-6 aimed 9mm rounds in the time it would take "me" to get off 2 buckshot loads................with a pump gun.

As set up it's; IIRC , about 3-4 inches shorter than an AR with the stock fully closed...... the magazine (if you use a 18 round) is fully in the pistol grip and the white light is easy to operate. capable of rapid fire "fist" size groups at 50 yds...... 10yd half that.

Cover a choke point like the top of the stairs........... and call 911

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Old 03-28-2017, 07:57 AM
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Yes on the little carbines, especially if your old and shaky .
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Old 03-28-2017, 08:43 AM
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There are many good HD weapons. Nothing wrong with an M1 carbine - GREAT ONE! My preference is a 12 Ga. Pump and #4 Buckshot. The KEY is to bring them to the Range once in a while and fire them. It is all too easy to go out and buy a HD weapon, fire it a few times, clean it, load it and forget about it. You need familiarity with ANY HD gun ESPECIALLY when you are being invaded and the adrenaline in flowing. That is NOT the time to have to think how your weapon functions. PRACTICE!
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Old 03-28-2017, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dben002 View Post
Nothing beats the sound of racking a pump shotgun in the quiet hours of dark til dawn..not much better than a 19 inch pump to get the message across that you came to the wrong address......
I think a load of #4 buck in the face sends a lot louder message.

I would no more load an UNLOADED shotgun to send a "message" than I'd shoot a double barrel shotgun out of a window.

Letting somebody know where you are and that you started out with an unloaded firearm is more apt to send the message that you're not as serious about things as the intruder.
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Old 03-28-2017, 09:07 AM
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No long gun bigger than an MP5 with a collapsed stock is an appropriate tool in my home. I rely strictly on handguns, usually my concealed carry gun of the day, for home defense.

I live alone in a two bedroom apartment. If I called the cops every time there was a noise, AT BEST, they'd stop coming.

I once heard a loud crash in my living room in the middle of the night. I picked up my Springfield ball gun and a flashlight and went to discover a collapsed bookshelf and a pile of books.
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Old 03-28-2017, 09:40 AM
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More and more "experts" emerged with the advent of the internet. The fact that according to the OP that this stuff is now making its way to normal shows is worrisome.

Be wary of the one who suggests that there is only one tool or way to best defend yourself. Chances are he or she lacks the experience to be capable of proficiency across multiple disciplines, and will therefore SUCK the moment something doesn't go according to plan.
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Old 03-28-2017, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amcline82 View Post
I used to think that way too. The one sound that will beat the rack of the pump is the intruder shooting you because his was already loaded. Just my 2 cents
My thought also. Racking the slide should be the second sound heard immediately after the BOOM of the first shot.
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Old 03-28-2017, 09:56 AM
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I'm somewhat puzzled as to the permanent affinity for the shotgun. It's not aim-free, it can be short-stroked, it's bulky, the capacity is extremely limited, and it's very slow to reload.
Good morning to you, sir.
Everyone has their own personal preferences, but I don't think there's much to be puzzled about. The shotgun is and has always been one of the most devastating close-quarters anti-personnel firearms available; used by police and military everywhere when trouble is to be expected.

A full-size pistol will defend any home, for sure. A .44 revolver also will (likely leaving you permanently deaf, though).

However, a single round of 00 buck hits with 2.800 ft. lb. of force and within 15 yards it generates massive, brutal damage. How many do you really need to put down a human assailant?

Shotguns are inexpensive, simple, reliable, and extremely powerful. That's a good combination in my book.

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Old 03-28-2017, 10:21 AM
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... get the message across that you came to the wrong address ...
Three fatalities in Oklahoma....-wronghouse-jpg
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Old 03-28-2017, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Houlton View Post
Just finished watching a show that promoted a 9mm carbine for home defense. The show has also talked about tactics for "clearing" your home for burglars. Having a gun that comes through a door 2' before you to me is almost as ridiculous as trying to search your house by yourself. Someone breaks in your home you put yourself between your family and whatever threat is there and call 911. One, any Police Officer on this thread will tell you one person can't do this safely. Two, you don't leave your family so satisfy your ego you are a real man and can do this. You are there to stop anyone getting to people who are depending on you to protect them. Sorry about the rant. Just get tired of shows that promote things that can get people hurt.
Way back when I was a reserve officer an 8 man department covered a County of 1800 square miles. Frequently you had to do this by yourself. Obviously it can be done but generalizations are not the best when we take in regional differences. In much of rural Idaho a burglar either parked within a half mile, in which case the vehicle would be clearly visible or had a driver. With a county grid of not less than 1 mile in between roads some things were easier to check.
Probably the biggest mistake most make is getting training info from media be it TV, internet or film without proper instructors to assist it.
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Old 03-28-2017, 02:25 PM
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I have seen the 9MM carbine advocated in areas where handgun ownership is restricted. there was an article recently in American Rifleman by a retired SF E-9 on house defense and clearing with an AR-15. In a shotgun birdshot and skeet shot are not to be trifled with a close range. Wide spread, reduced penetration of walls, low recoil. And the shotgun-like a the submachine gun-requires a lot more training than most realize, the effectiveness of "point and pull" is "greatly exaggerated." What really counts is the combat mindset.
The guns are just tools. The mind is the weapon.
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Old 03-28-2017, 02:34 PM
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I'll say this... If I come home and there is an intruder inside, I'm staying outside and calling the police. I know what I have inside for rapid defense and the intruders may have found it.
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Old 03-28-2017, 02:38 PM
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Nothing beats the sound of racking a pump shotgun in the quiet hours of dark til dawn..not much better than a 19 inch pump to get the message across that you came to the wrong address......
That sound to a life long felon means...shoot that guy!!! NOW!!!!!
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Old 03-28-2017, 02:43 PM
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That sound to a life long felon means...shoot that guy!!! NOW!!!!!
Probably just me, but I have seen the damage first hand 00buck can do and if I broke into a house and heard "that sound" from down the hallway, or at the top of the stairs, or even in another room..........
I'm outta there...Exit stage right....
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Old 03-28-2017, 02:53 PM
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Clint Smith quote. To get full effect of this you must say it at a rate or 1,800 words a minute..."Handguns poke holes in people, rifles poke holes through people, shotguns make a mess on the wall."
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Old 03-28-2017, 02:55 PM
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Probably just me, but I have seen the damage first hand 00buck can do and if I broke into a house and heard "that sound" from down the hallway, or at the top of the stairs, or even in another room..........
I'm outta there...Exit stage right....
I assume you are not a life long felon. A completely different mindset.
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Old 03-28-2017, 02:59 PM
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It is not as simple as the op stated for some of us. Two of my kids lived downstairs and one upstairs and all were on the opposite end of the house. I have never called the police it is not their problem, it is my problem. Found my door wide open and the lights on a year back. In this instance I had my wife take the car down the driveway and in position to leave the county if necessary. I grabbed my model 19 and checked the house. Nobody home and nothing missing. Still cant figure that one out. I always live in the countryside so things are different that urban dwellers. One night I heard what sounded like somebody trying to get in the kitchen window. My wife armed herself in bed and I crept out with my handgun to check out the problem. Just as I was reaching for the curtain to open it and confront the intruder, my foot got near one of my kids proximity toys, in this case a dog. For you that do not know what one of these is, they sit dormant till you get near then it lights up, starts yipping and scurries off. I dang near shot the coffee pot. The noise outside stopped but resumed in a minute or two. When the noise started again, I threw open the curtain and shown my light at the suspected intruded. What I saw was a mule deer buck scraping the velvet from his antlers on the side of my house. The joys of living in the woods.
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Old 03-28-2017, 03:06 PM
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Just a little Ruger Security six with .38 wad cutters. I hate cleaning up after "guests" arrive...and depart unexpectedly.
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Old 03-28-2017, 03:16 PM
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It is not as simple as the op stated for some of us. Two of my kids lived downstairs and one upstairs and all were on the opposite end of the house. I have never called the police it is not their problem, it is my problem. Found my door wide open and the lights on a year back. In this instance I had my wife take the car down the driveway and in position to leave the county if necessary. I grabbed my model 19 and checked the house. Nobody home and nothing missing. Still cant figure that one out. I always live in the countryside so things are different that urban dwellers. One night I heard what sounded like somebody trying to get in the kitchen window. My wife armed herself in bed and I crept out with my handgun to check out the problem. Just as I was reaching for the curtain to open it and confront the intruder, my foot got near one of my kids proximity toys, in this case a dog. For you that do not know what one of these is, they sit dormant till you get near then it lights up, starts yipping and scurries off. I dang near shot the coffee pot. The noise outside stopped but resumed in a minute or two. When the noise started again, I threw open the curtain and shown my light at the suspected intruded. What I saw was a mule deer buck scraping the velvet from his antlers on the side of my house. The joys of living in the woods.
This post says it all. No one choice for everybody........
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Old 03-28-2017, 03:21 PM
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...current line up of home defense shotguns...from top...12 gauge Stoeger Coach Gun...12 gauge Mossberg 500...12 gauge Winchester 1300 Defender...20 gauge H&R Pardner Pump...

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Old 03-28-2017, 03:52 PM
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...current line up of home defense shotguns...from top...12 gauge Stoeger Coach Gun...12 gauge Mossberg 500...12 gauge Winchester 1300 Defender...20 gauge H&R Pardner Pump...

I hope each is choked and loaded appropriately for varying distances and toughness of potential targets.

What was that movie with the line... You broke into the wrong @#$% rec-room?

Oh, I remember a redhead cutting apart a Graboid with a 12 gauge.
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Old 03-28-2017, 04:18 PM
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BAM-BAM:
Have you ever seen someone work-out with an 870 who knows what they're doing? Maybe only a hair slower cycling than a semi-auto. It takes a lot of shooting experience, though, I'll admit.

00 BUCK ADVOCATES:
As for the usage of 00 Buck inside the home: You get nine .33 cal balls per average load. At defensive distances (half-a-house length at the most, maybe), if you don't hit your target (the Bad Guy) with the full charge, if at all, you have those HEAVY balls of lead ripping through walls, etc., possibly into the adjacent apartment to do harm to innocents. Unlike in the movies, you just don't make gigantic four-foot holes in a door from ten feet away and the lead stops in it's tracks. You'd be lucky to wind up with a fist sized void, and the charge continues to travel a goodly way. The same pattern with almost any other load, too. But if your choice for a home defense weapon is a shotgun, it is more than prudent to try to mitigate peripheral damage with the usage of a more suitable load like #4 Buck, with 27-28 .24 cal. pellets, or BB, with 50+ .18 cal. pellets. Pretty much standard loadings for 12 ga. 2 3/4". (Side note: If #4 Buck was good enough for Seal Team 2 in Viet Nam, it's damn sure good enough for me!) They will do the job at the distances of which we're speaking and not demolish the neighborhood.

Personally, I use an old 870 beater with an 18 1/2" cylinder-bore barrel, loaded with #4 Buck (Along with home defense, it's also quite handy when it comes to four-legged varmints, too. Add a light and you've got a world-class raccoon eradicator.), plus a handgun and flashlight on the nightstand...
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Old 03-28-2017, 04:28 PM
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[QUOTE=ExcitableBoy;139530937]BAM-BAM:
Have you ever seen someone work-out with an 870 who knows what they're doing? Maybe only a hair slower cycling than a semi-auto. It takes a lot of shooting experience, though, I'll admit.

LOL..... I was referring to ........ me.....not that guy on TV!!!

While I own a couple of 12&20 gauges.....shotguns are just not my thing!!!!

Given my skill level and experience ...... I'd grab my Beretta CX-4 9mm Carbine.......if faced with anything bigger than a pheasant!

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Old 03-28-2017, 05:01 PM
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I have a free roaming Rottweiler. Here he is watching Top Gear with me. (The real Top Gear, not the current one. Now we watch The Grand Tour on Amazon.)



If someone breaks in, I'm not hiding in my bedroom while Randy deals with it until the cops come and shoot him.

I have my trusty 12 gauge pump. Randy and I will sort things out.

I think a 9mm carbine would also do a first rate job.
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Old 03-28-2017, 05:18 PM
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I live in an apartment with a little rat terrier who is a first-rate early warning system. House guns are a .38 Special with the FBI load and an elderly 12ga. side-by-side sawed to twenty inches and loaded with #4 buck. I feel adequately protected, and except for the dog there's no one here but me.
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Old 03-28-2017, 06:31 PM
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Claymores, barbed wire, Great Danes, and attack cats.
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Old 03-28-2017, 06:42 PM
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I've never been a fan of carbine, shotguns or any long gun for basic home defense. I don't like anything that requires two hands to operate or won't fit through a door or down a hall sideways.
I call the police to take the report. It seems like a bad idea to invite armed people, hopped up on adrenaline, to the party when they don't know the good guys from the bad guys.
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Old 03-28-2017, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKHAWKNJ View Post
I have seen the 9MM carbine advocated in areas where handgun ownership is restricted. there was an article recently in American Rifleman by a retired SF E-9 on house defense and clearing with an AR-15. In a shotgun birdshot and skeet shot are not to be trifled with a close range. Wide spread, reduced penetration of walls, low recoil. And the shotgun-like a the submachine gun-requires a lot more training than most realize, the effectiveness of "point and pull" is "greatly exaggerated." What really counts is the combat mindset.
The guns are just tools. The mind is the weapon.
Personally, I think BIRDSHOT is a horrendously BAD IDEA for self defense inside a home. If you happen to miss with any of the shot cloud, and any of that shot hits a hard surface, it's liable to ricochet right back into the shooters eyes. STICK WITH BUCK SHOT PEOPLE.
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Old 03-28-2017, 07:09 PM
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Kids are grown and gone .. just me and the wife and a 90 pound German Shepherd named Eko .. she would be raising the dead if someone tried to come in .. really think they would turn and run ..

But think one could use any firearm as long as the appropriate self defense ammo is used so over penetration was eliminated ..
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Old 03-28-2017, 07:24 PM
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Personally, I think BIRDSHOT is a horrendously BAD IDEA for self defense inside a home. If you happen to miss with any of the shot cloud, and any of that shot hits a hard surface, it's liable to ricochet right back into the shooters eyes. STICK WITH BUCK SHOT PEOPLE.
...video below pretty well proves that at across the room distances...shotgun loads...even birdshot... are still in the shot cup when they impact...basically a frangible slug...

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Old 03-28-2017, 08:30 PM
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...video below pretty well proves that at across the room distances...shotgun loads...even birdshot... are still in the shot cup when they impact...basically a frangible slug...

Shotgun Ammo for Home Defense - Gunblast.com - YouTube
I've shot bowling pins (at 10 yards) in a match setting with #6 shot and had the shot come right back at me. Video or no video, your choice, I'll stick with personal experience.
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Last edited by D Brown; 03-28-2017 at 08:32 PM. Reason: Edited to add distance.
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Old 03-28-2017, 10:17 PM
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I've shot bowling pins (at 10 yards) in a match setting with #6 shot and had the shot come right back at me. Video or no video, your choice, I'll stick with personal experience.
...I guess if the perp is wearing a vest made out of bowling pins...you may have a point...
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Old 03-28-2017, 10:47 PM
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I'd probably discount leverguns and single-action revolvers, though.
Why? 10 rounds in a handgun caliber lever gun could be pretty darn effective. Single action revolvers have been used for self defense for a long time. Ever watch a cowboy match? Some of those folks are downright scary good.

IMHO, use what you have, and practice!
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Old 03-28-2017, 11:07 PM
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The late Dave McCraken once suggested to me that I take my cylinder bore 18.5" 870 Wingmaster to the trap range and shoot from the 16 yard line with birdshot.

If you shoot fast you can break the birds and it is great practice
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Old 03-29-2017, 12:12 AM
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Why? 10 rounds in a handgun caliber lever gun could be pretty darn effective. Single action revolvers have been used for self defense for a long time. Ever watch a cowboy match? Some of those folks are downright scary good.

IMHO, use what you have, and practice!
What does a single-action revolver or levergun do, that a double-action revolver or semiautomatic carbine cannot?

Now, what do DA revolvers and semiautomatics do that SAs and levers cannot? Fire more than once in a row.

They may be effective, but they are obsolete. There's no objective reason to select one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diegobxr
Good morning to you, sir.
Everyone has their own personal preferences, but I don't think there's much to be puzzled about. The shotgun is and has always been one of the most devastating close-quarters anti-personnel firearms available; used by police and military everywhere when trouble is to be expected.
While trying to be condescending, you've missed the point. Which is that that shotgun, contrary to popular thinking, is far from a one-size-fits all solution. Its weaknesses are glossed over, its strengths are overestimated, and folks tend to ignore the fact that they can't remember the last time they actually used their shotgun.

Is it good? Yes, if you're an avid shotgunner. If it's been a few years since you've used one, but you practice weekly with a handgun, a pistol or revolver is a much better bet.

Also, isn't complaining about hearing damage after a defensive shooting a bit like pissing and moaning that your seat belt gave you a bruise?
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