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Old 03-30-2017, 02:41 PM
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WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided. WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided. WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided. WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided. WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided.  
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Do you think a criminal will say, Oh great, I don't need a permit, I can carry a gun now? No. It only means that more law abiding people will have further inducement to protect themselves. It will make no difference in the numbers of bad people with guns.
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Old 03-30-2017, 02:56 PM
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We have it in KS, minimal problems. I am in favor of it.
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Old 03-30-2017, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by keith44spl View Post



Oh wait, isn't that an inalienable right here in the good ol US of A, the right to defend one's self ???




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No one can take away your inalienable right to defend yourself with your bare hands.
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Old 03-30-2017, 04:01 PM
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In Idaho we are pretty free with our gun rights compared to some other states. I have not seen anything that would make me think it should be different than it is now here. I think it helps to know that if a criminal walked into a store in my town prepared to rob it that there is probably at least a few people ready to stop them.
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Old 03-30-2017, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keith44spl



Oh wait, isn't that an inalienable right here in the good ol US of A, the right to defend one's self ???








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Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
No one can take away your inalienable right to defend yourself with your bare hands.



This is true, and I have....
But, it is on rare occasion that I would choose to go to fisticuffs now....


That's why I pack a gun!!!!






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Old 03-30-2017, 04:27 PM
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No one can take away your inalienable right to defend yourself with your bare hands.
What if a person used their bare hands to hold a stick or firearm?
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Old 03-30-2017, 05:39 PM
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Illinois requires 8 hours on the law and I really think that is totally excessive .. it could have been adequately covered in 2 or 3 hours ..

I am for constitutional carry .. and would like to see the states that do so teach gun law and safety in High school as a 2-3 week required course .. its really something everyone needs to know whether you own a gun or not ..

When I was in Alaska back in the late 60's both gun safety and a gun law class was taught at the High School in town ..

Edit : Maybe the NRA could put a course together that would be suitable ..

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Old 03-30-2017, 05:56 PM
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When I was in Alaska back in the late 60's both gun safety and a gun law class was taught at the High School in town ..

Edit : Maybe the NRA could put a course together that would be suitable ..
Yeah, I suggested the schools could offer an optional firearms course back when Maine was raging about Constitutional Carry. The GunGrabbers went batcrap crazy. You'd have thought I suggested infecting school children with Ebola. I'd still like to see it but at a time when 5 year olds are being suspended for playing with stick guns, I'm not optimistic.
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Old 03-30-2017, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by crittrgittr View Post
We (WI) have a proposal out there now for constitutional carry.
IMO, you should be proud and thankful it's even on the ballot. I'd be walking and talking my tail off to help get it passed.
Okla. doesn't have it (currently concealed and non-concealed but requires a permit) but I can only hope.
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Old 03-30-2017, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keith44spl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by keith44spl



Oh wait, isn't that an inalienable right here in the good ol US of A, the right to defend one's self ???













This is true, and I have....
But, it is on rare occasion that I would choose to go to fisticuffs now....


That's why I pack a gun!!!!


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ETA My bad, the cats were voiced by Pedro Gonzales Gonzales.


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Old 03-30-2017, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by crittrgittr View Post
We (WI) have a proposal out there now for constitutional carry. I always was in favor of it, until now. Now I'm undecided if it's a good idea for people without classes or background checks to be carrying. I am a current permit carrier. What are some thoughts from those of you who already have it in your state? I do believe in the 2nd amendment also. TORN.
Thousands of people carry right now without a permit and you will never know who they are. Plus in Wisconsin hunters safety qualifies you for a cc permit even though no handgun training is done in hunters safety.

People said the same thing when Wisconsin introduced the concealed carry permit but yet I haven't seen any cc holders running around killing children
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Old 03-30-2017, 07:38 PM
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S.C. House has passed it to the Senate AGAIN. 2nd year in a row.
I have carried in S.C. legally for over 40 years. I got a permit when it was almost impossible. While I am glad I have had it all these years, it makes me ill as a hornet everytime I look at it. Permit INDEED!!!
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:35 PM
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I may lose my good guy card for this, but with rights come responsibilities. I have the right to vote by simple virtue of reaching age 18, but knowing how to use it wisely is not automatic. That's why we have (or at least once had) Civics classes to help students understand their rights.

Knowing how to use a gun safely and effectively is not automatic by virtue of birth in the United States. I had the advantage of being raised by someone familiar with firearms who thought 5 years was a good age to start learning safety and proficiency. Not everyone did.

I don't like state-mandated training in principle, but it has done a world of good in Illinois in practice. Several people I know took advantage of the fact that firearms instructors and buyers were allowed to come out of the shadows and took training before even deciding whether to exercise their right to keep and bear arms. The requirement of training and range qualification created a market. In my county and 2 adjacent there are at least 3 times the number of indoor ranges that there were before the CCL law was passed. Would the market continue to support all of them if the permit system ended? I don't know.
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  #64  
Old 03-30-2017, 09:32 PM
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Generations of men and women have defended themselves with firearms. Most but not all had some sort of training.

The tradition isn't as common today unfortunately. But the political climate isn't the same either. I agree that people need quality training. But at what cost to gun owners as a whole? Why do we need to give government more control over us? Can we not police ourselves?

And I would like to believe that we all started somewhere. Very few of us were high speed low drag operators the first time we picked up a gun. So because we are inexperienced, we shouldn't be allowed to own or carry a gun? If you answered that question truthfully, your answer probably took you back to the 2A, our roots, our beliefs, our freedom, our way of life.

I have been called an absolutist for my belief in the 2A. So be it. We cannot and should not tolerate any restrictions on gun ownership, how we carry, and where we carry.

If a gun owner screws up, there are plenty of laws on the books to deal with them. So why make it difficult for the rest of us because of the actions of a few?
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Old 03-30-2017, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Buford57 View Post
I may lose my good guy card for this, but with rights come responsibilities. I have the right to vote by simple virtue of reaching age 18, but knowing how to use it wisely is not automatic. That's why we have (or at least once had) Civics classes to help students understand their rights.

Knowing how to use a gun safely and effectively is not automatic by virtue of birth in the United States. I had the advantage of being raised by someone familiar with firearms who thought 5 years was a good age to start learning safety and proficiency. Not everyone did.

I don't like state-mandated training in principle, but it has done a world of good in Illinois in practice. Several people I know took advantage of the fact that firearms instructors and buyers were allowed to come out of the shadows and took training before even deciding whether to exercise their right to keep and bear arms. The requirement of training and range qualification created a market. In my county and 2 adjacent there are at least 3 times the number of indoor ranges that there were before the CCL law was passed. Would the market continue to support all of them if the permit system ended? I don't know.

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Old 03-30-2017, 09:54 PM
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Being good for business doesn't seem to be a good reason to compromise on a basic Constitutional (and human) right.


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I don't like state-mandated training in principle, but it has done a world of good in Illinois in practice. Several people I know took advantage of the fact that firearms instructors and buyers were allowed to come out of the shadows and took training before even deciding whether to exercise their right to keep and bear arms. The requirement of training and range qualification created a market. In my county and 2 adjacent there are at least 3 times the number of indoor ranges that there were before the CCL law was passed. Would the market continue to support all of them if the permit system ended? I don't know.
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Old 03-30-2017, 10:20 PM
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I never once said I was against constitutional carry, all I said at first was "undecided ". I wanted to hear what you all had for opinions, especially those states that have it. I really value all of your thoughts. It sounds like you folks that have it are glad you do and those of you that don't wish you did. Looks like it's a great idea I will get behind and encourage. Thank you to those of you that responded respectfully.
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Old 03-30-2017, 10:41 PM
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If you want to mandate training for exercising a civil liberty, I want you to show me that not mandating training, which is the norm, is causing a real problem.

At present 16 (?) states permit "Constitutional Carry" (no permit required to carry a firearm period.) Several states issue permits with no training requirement at all and several others allow permitless open carry (Again no training requirement).

According to the CDC accidental firearms deaths are at an all time low while firearms ownership is at historic highs.

There are already a whole bunch of people out there carrying guns with no mandated training at all where are all the firearms related accidents
Read my post again, Smoke. I arrived at the same conclusion--that training and thus permitting should not be mandated. There are idiots, and they must be suffered. Which might sound awful to a non-gun person, the idea that there are morons with the ability to hurt other people. But realistically, we tolerate incompetence in lots of other areas where morons can injure people. There are cretinous doctors, incompetent attorneys, bad 9-1-1 operators, and so on.

Stupidity is like nuclear energy, Smoke. Properly harnessed, it can provide a nearly limitless source of energy. And you don't want to get any on you.

If you want to suggest that there are, in fact, no idiots, we may have to agree to disagree.

*chuckles* It's the Schrodinger's Idiot thought experiment. So long as you don't look in the box, there are no idiots. And there are also idiots!
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Old 03-30-2017, 10:53 PM
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An armed criminal answers to no law enforcement to carry a gun. Many law abiding citizens take the chance of going to jail for carrying a gun without a license not because they choose to break the law. They don't have a license because they often can't afford close to $250 to get a license to be armed to protect themselves.
A law abiding person buys/ wants to carry/have a gun to protect himself where as the criminal carries a gun to have an advantage over the people he chooses to abuse. Crimes involving guns has dropped since more citizens have chosen to carry a gun for protection rather than depend on a 911 call to protect them from harm or death.
Texas passed open carry which became law in Jan-2017 yet I have yet to see anyone open carrying. Personally IMO open carry just protects me from some anti gun nut from reporting he saw my concealed gun that became visible when I bent over or any other reason.
I think Texas was trying for constitutional carry but it failed. Texas did just lower costs for a license to carry from $140 to $40 and renewal from $70 to $40.
When Texas was considering license to carry many people freaked out saying it would be a replay of shoot out at the OK corral. Guess what, that didn't happen.
If the laws already on the books were enforced then you wouldn't catch a criminal with a gun because of the prison time associated with committing a crime while armed. But no the laws against the criminals end up almost ignored in many cases while the law abiding citizens go to jail for not having a license to protect themselves with a gun. Totally opposite how it should be.

I saw on a TV show that Alaska dropped the legal driving limit of alcohol from .08 to .04. Maybe if they would raise the fines and permanently take their drivers license away there would be less people killed by drunk drivers. In Texas the 3rd DWI is considered a felony but many people have 4 or 5 DWI and never spent as much as a month in jail. Isn't it strange more people are killed by drunk drivers than by a person with a gun.
I myself have never been shot at, thank goodness, but I have been hit by a drunk driver. Had the drunk driver been a few feet father over he would have done more than just swipe the whole side of my car. He totaled the F150 that was behind me. Lucky nobody was killed. Point is that drunk is still driving and still has a license to drive. But oh no I or any citizen has to have a permit to protect himself with a gun?
Like the bumper stickers say...If you take away the guns then only the criminals will have guns. Bottom line is taking away 2nd Amendment gun rights isn't to stop gun crime, it is to take away the people's way of protecting themselves from those that want to harm them.
The Constitution says it is the law of the land but the people have been led to believe a state has the right to ignore the law of the land. Not one place in the 2nd does it say the states can remove a citizens right to bear arms.
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Old 03-31-2017, 06:15 AM
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I m

I don't like state-mandated training in principle,
<SNIP>
The requirement of training and range qualification created a market. In my county and 2 adjacent there are at least 3 times the number of indoor ranges that there were before the CCL law was passed. Would the market continue to support all of them if the permit system ended? I don't know.
This sounds like the Obamacare Individual Mandate. You're saying people should be required to pay for a CCL, classes and training in order to keep firing ranges in business.

I recall that training requests increased in states that passed Constitutional Carry. It's been a while and I just don't have the desire to go dig the cites back up, but we went through it all a couple years back here in Maine.
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Old 03-31-2017, 07:44 AM
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Since people prohibited from posesing firearms, are already prohibited from possesing firearms, the debate primarily is over mandatory training.

This issue should not be a mystery, we already know the answers.
The country can roughly be divided into three catagories : 1. Those with no training ( either ConCarry, or no training CCW) 2. Those with a vague , generalized Training requirements , that will be satisified by virtually anything , up to a DD214 from WWII. 3. Those with specific mandated class, given from specifically by state licsensed Instructor.

And the frequency of bystanders being shot accidently or improperly have no difference between catagories, and for that matter round to essentially zero in all.

( FWIW, I am firm believer in effective skills, and useful knowledge. The level that I feel a wise person should have exceedes every state requirement, and most LE agencies. And I encourage everyone to pursue such knowledge and skills of their own volition, in the manner that works best for them.)

I see great damage done in ( various jurisdictions) by low information, stupid voters. Worldwide, religion is huge cause of death and destruction. But don't want mandatory gov't education and prior restraint to vote, attend St Marys, speak to people, write letters or emails, read books of my choosing, or look at the unfiltered internet.

Yeah, yeah, but guns are different because they are *dangerous* ? I dunno, it's hypothetical that someone could walk into the local Do It Best ( buying group for independent hardware stores, similar to True Valuel , buy a chainsaw or skill saw, and cut their hand off 30sec later. But they rarely do because most people either : Already know how to use them. Ask their friends, neighbors, relatives, and mentors how to do the repair/ improvement projects. Or as last resort, read directions and other independent instructional material.

A local experienced full time Instructor asks all his students taking the Utah CCW class, and in more than 10yrs is yet to have a student without shooting experience.
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Old 03-31-2017, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Biggfoot44 View Post
Since people prohibited from posesing firearms, are already prohibited from possesing firearms, the debate primarily is over mandatory training.

This issue should not be a mystery, we already know the answers.
The country can roughly be divided into three catagories : 1. Those with no training ( either ConCarry, or no training CCW) 2. Those with a vague , generalized Training requirements , that will be satisified by virtually anything , up to a DD214 from WWII. 3. Those with specific mandated class, given from specifically by state licsensed Instructor.

And the frequency of bystanders being shot accidently or improperly have no difference between catagories, and for that matter round to essentially zero in all.

( FWIW, I am firm believer in effective skills, and useful knowledge. The level that I feel a wise person should have exceedes every state requirement, and most LE agencies. And I encourage everyone to pursue such knowledge and skills of their own volition, in the manner that works best for them.)

I see great damage done in ( various jurisdictions) by low information, stupid voters. Worldwide, religion is huge cause of death and destruction. But don't want mandatory gov't education and prior restraint to vote, attend St Marys, speak to people, write letters or emails, read books of my choosing, or look at the unfiltered internet.

Yeah, yeah, but guns are different because they are *dangerous* ? I dunno, it's hypothetical that someone could walk into the local Do It Best ( buying group for independent hardware stores, similar to True Valuel , buy a chainsaw or skill saw, and cut their hand off 30sec later. But they rarely do because most people either : Already know how to use them. Ask their friends, neighbors, relatives, and mentors how to do the repair/ improvement projects. Or as last resort, read directions and other independent instructional material.

A local experienced full time Instructor asks all his students taking the Utah CCW class, and in more than 10yrs is yet to have a student without shooting experience.
Very true. Well said.
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Old 03-31-2017, 10:26 AM
BigDog48 BigDog48 is offline
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I hate to a really long thread where we mostly agree, but that never stopped me before :-)

I am originally from Baltimore, but moved out of Maryland (where getting a CCW is almost impossible) to NC 15 years ago. I am willing to bet that if the Baltimore City Police were allowed to stop and frisk, they would find 80% of those in the streets after dusk were illegally carrying and would be even if there was CCW in Baltimore. They'd be illegal, not only because they don't have a permit, they'd be illegal because they were also carrying drugs or were under the influence of some substance or were felons or had mental health histories or ________ (fill in the blank with any of the wrong answers to questions on the federal ATF form).

Almost everyone is armed EXCEPT law abiding citizens who should be able to get a CCW. I'm sure the same is true in Chicago and many other places.

Violating the Constitutional rights of law abiding citizens by denying them the right to bear arms doesn't stop criminals from carrying!
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Old 03-31-2017, 10:58 AM
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WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided. WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided. WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided. WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided. WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided.  
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Originally Posted by crittrgittr View Post
We (WI) have a proposal out there now for constitutional carry. I always was in favor of it, until now. Now I'm undecided if it's a good idea for people without classes or background checks to be carrying. I am a current permit carrier. What are some thoughts from those of you who already have it in your state? I do believe in the 2nd amendment also. TORN.
Why would you be torn? You and I (as a WI resident) know that the "training" requirement can be satisfied with a simple hunter safety class. Which we both know has nothing to do with concealed carry or the liability herein.

And I for one am in favor of not needing a government permission slip to carry a gun tucked away out of sight. I can carry a gun including a big long gun (although I wouldn't) as an open carry but if it gets cold and I wear a coat that covers my handgun I am in violation. Never has made sense to me. And the proposal currently being talked about includes a CCW license for reciprocity issues if you need or want.

I fully encourage folks to learn as much as they can and practice practice practice. But even our current license system does not accomplish that. I am not torn at all.
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:04 PM
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WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided. WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided. WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided. WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided. WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided.  
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I'm all for it !
The criminals all carry their guns with no permit requirements, shouldn't I have the same right .
I'm an honest , God fearing , hard working , small business owner with a family....Why punish me , I just want to be on equal ground with them.
Gary
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:52 PM
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Classes and checks are virtually meaningless. Yesterday a Hamilton County Tn Deputy Sheriff was shot and killed by Chatanooga TN police responding to a domestic because he wouldn't drop his gun. If you read his record, one has to question the background they did on him and the classes he took to get certified and whether there was ever a psych eval done on him prior to hiring as a deputy.

Personally I think constitutional carry is a good thing. But since it's around, I'm also thinking that I need to carry to protect myself from some of these yahoo's who will be carrying that maybe shouldn't be.
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Old 03-31-2017, 02:50 PM
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...my wife has told me a story from when she was young and living on their farm...of a prison break near there...

...the radio and tv was advising people to stay inside and lock the doors...my father in law couldn't stop working the farm until the situation was resolved...so he put his overalls on and slipped a pistol into his pocket...

...I don't think my wife at the time knew he owned a pistol...(he later taught her and her brother and sister gun safety and how to shoot all the guns he owned)...she was scared...but also felt relieved that her Dad could defend himself if needed...

...the situation was resolved with no problems...but it instilled in my future wife the need for self defense and firearm ownership...

...self defense is a natural human right...it can't be conferred upon you by "others"...you can only be deprived of it by "others"...

...our State Senate has passed Constitutional Carry...but the chance it will get passed by the House and signed by the Governor is less than nil...

...our Governor lists his greatest accomplishment as being the building of a bicycle path from the Kansas border to the Utah border...so that's what we're up against here...
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Old 04-01-2017, 09:26 AM
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...our State Senate has passed Constitutional Carry...but the chance it will get passed by the House and signed by the Governor is less than nil...

...our Governor lists his greatest accomplishment as being the building of a bicycle path from the Kansas border to the Utah border...so that's what we're up against here...
Governor Fruitlooper is one of the primary reasons I don't live in Brighton any more.
When the 15 round magazine limit went into effect, that was when I knew being a Greenie wasn't for me.
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Old 04-01-2017, 03:57 PM
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This sounds like the Obamacare Individual Mandate. You're saying people should be required to pay for a CCL, classes and training in order to keep firing ranges in business.

No, I'm not. Read my comment for what it said, not for a straw man to knock down.


I recall that training requests increased in states that passed Constitutional Carry. It's been a while and I just don't have the desire to go dig the cites back up, but we went through it all a couple years back here in Maine.
That's a good thing. My point was that permitting created a demand for training and with it the market for facilities and instructors that never existed under the old system of outright denial of 2nd Amendment rights. It was in all ways a move in the right direction, although not the destination we would prefer.


There will always be some restrictions. If you don't believe that try driving your Abrams tank down Main St.
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Old 04-02-2017, 08:03 AM
AlHunt AlHunt is offline
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It was in all ways a move in the right direction, although not the destination we would prefer.
If it's the wrong destination then the direction can't be right.

But I don't think we have any fundamental disagreement here.
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Old 04-02-2017, 08:46 AM
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Generations of men and women have defended themselves with firearms. Most but not all had some sort of training.

The tradition isn't as common today unfortunately. But the political climate isn't the same either. I agree that people need quality training. But at what cost to gun owners as a whole? Why do we need to give government more control over us? Can we not police ourselves?

And I would like to believe that we all started somewhere. Very few of us were high speed low drag operators the first time we picked up a gun. So because we are inexperienced, we shouldn't be allowed to own or carry a gun? If you answered that question truthfully, your answer probably took you back to the 2A, our roots, our beliefs, our freedom, our way of life.

I have been called an absolutist for my belief in the 2A. So be it. We cannot and should not tolerate any restrictions on gun ownership, how we carry, and where we carry.

If a gun owner screws up, there are plenty of laws on the books to deal with them. So why make it difficult for the rest of us because of the actions of a few?
You took the many words out of my mouth, thank you.

Count me as an "absolutist" as well.
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Old 04-02-2017, 09:17 AM
BigBoy99 BigBoy99 is offline
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Consider what some other people must put up with. I lived in the Peoples Republic of Maryland for many years before escaping. At the time I lived there, the concealed carry permits were granted only to politically connected people and it probably is still the same way.

I had a female co-worker who was getting out of a bad marriage situation. She had a restraining order but he raped and beat her. She applied to the MD Concealed Carry Board for a permit to carry because her ex said that "he was sorry he didn't kill her" and she was afraid for her life. The board rejected her application saying there wasn't "sufficient justification" for them to grant her a permit to carry. They added, "If it happens again, we may consider your application."
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Old 04-02-2017, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
I'm more worried about people who buy and drive a car on the same road I'm using . . .

What ever do you mean? it is a well known fact that today's teens and 20 somethings can multitask....like texting the girlfriend, talking to the buddy, shuffling the music, eating a burger, AND speeding down a city street
ya lets make it mandatory that to carry a gun that you have to be approved, it works so well with drivers
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