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Old 03-29-2017, 11:10 AM
crittrgittr crittrgittr is offline
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WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided. WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided. WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided. WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided. WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided.  
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Default WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided.

We (WI) have a proposal out there now for constitutional carry. I always was in favor of it, until now. Now I'm undecided if it's a good idea for people without classes or background checks to be carrying. I am a current permit carrier. What are some thoughts from those of you who already have it in your state? I do believe in the 2nd amendment also. TORN.
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Old 03-29-2017, 11:23 AM
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So far I've had to get WY, CO, UT, and ND licenses.
Still have the UT and ND for the NICS checks.
Got the other 2 back in the day to
legally do what I was doing anyway.

I think, "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED", means just that.

I really believe having to take a "class" or get a "background" check
is having the gov't make me say Mother May I. Screw that.
The Gov't derives it's power and authority from me, not the
other way around. I've always been against this type of BS.
It's the firearms equivalent of Jim Crow laws and poll taxes.

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Old 03-29-2017, 11:41 AM
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Good luck with that. I only know that since West Virginia went with constitutional carry, it's like the wild west out here.
I live in constant fear that some drunken hillbilly'll see me and open fire.
Oh wait, that's what "they" said'll happen.
Basically, nothing's changed.
The law abiding'll carry legally and the criminals'll still break the law.
Personally, I still need to have a permit for reciprocity with VA.
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Old 03-29-2017, 11:57 AM
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The SC carry class was a full day, and more than an hour of it was the deputy explaining the legalities of what-if scenarios that were asked by the class. There's a lot of wrong ideas in peoples heads about whats legal to do, but asking and hearing the questions others asked was a valuable opportunity for me to learn the law. I was glad for the opportunity.
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Old 03-29-2017, 11:57 AM
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My goodness, the very thought of the un-washed masses of law-biding citizens being
allow to carry a tool of convenience to defend themselves against un-lawful menace
without the permission of the state or the powers to be...
For all are guilty till proven innocent by way of a back-ground check.




Oh wait, isn't that an inalienable right here in the good ol US of A, the right to defend one's self ???




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Old 03-29-2017, 12:04 PM
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Arizona went to Constitutional Carry, The opponents said blood will be running in the streets, there will be shootouts in back alleys and people will be dropping like flies in the barrooms. Of course none of this has happened. People are buying guns, and training on their own. A few months ago a civilian saved the life of a DPS Officer with his own personal owned and carried hand gun, shooting a bad guy. Embrace the Constitutional Carry if and when it passes in your state. Seems to be the wave of the future.
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Old 03-29-2017, 12:23 PM
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Constitutional Carry puts law abiding people on equal footing with law breakers, who carry their firearms without a permit.

It can take weeks or months to get a permit. People in jeopardy have died waiting for permission to carry a firearm. Often at the hands of someone carrying an illegal firearm.

We had a situation in my county a couple years back where a fugitive roamed the woods for a couple months, evidently passing within 100 feet of my house on multiple occasions. He was wanted for the murder of his girlfriend. At that time, the Constitutional Carry debate was raging here in Maine. It would have taken most if not all of the 2 months for someone to acquire a CC permit.

So, I believe you should support Constitutional Carry in your state. It's the law of the land in about a dozen states now and blood isn't running in the streets.

Also, if anyone tries Universal Background Checks in your state, kick them out.
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Old 03-29-2017, 12:30 PM
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I believe the folks who wrote our Bill of Rights intended for us to have Constitutional Carry. "shall not be infringed" The aggravation of obtaining and paying for a license, to me constitutes infringement.

Don't know if this is the best comparison, but consider how many terrible drivers are out there, presumably licensed. I would say at least 25% of drivers have no conception of what it means to properly operate a motor vehicle.
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Old 03-29-2017, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlHunt View Post
Constitutional Carry puts law abiding people on equal footing with law breakers, who carry their firearms without a permit.

It can take weeks or months to get a permit. People in jeopardy have died waiting for permission to carry a firearm. Often at the hands of someone carrying an illegal firearm.

We had a situation in my county a couple years back where a fugitive roamed the woods for a couple months, evidently passing within 100 feet of my house on multiple occasions. He was wanted for the murder of his girlfriend. At that time, the Constitutional Carry debate was raging here in Maine. It would have taken most if not all of the 2 months for someone to acquire a CC permit.

So, I believe you should support Constitutional Carry in your state. It's the law of the land in about a dozen states now and blood isn't running in the streets.

Also, if anyone tries Universal Background Checks in your state, kick them out.
Thanks for that post. Hadn't thought of it that way. When I Googled, I found that Constitutional Carry States have less violent crime than the other states.
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Old 03-29-2017, 01:30 PM
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WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided. WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided. WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided. WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided. WI proposes constitutional carry. I'm undecided.  
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Default my 2 cents worth

I got on the CCW bandwagon a long time ago (been teaching 25+ years now) It took a bunch of us like minded guys and girls many years to wear down our congress critters in a very blue state. When we finally got our CCW law, I took up teaching it and helping folks get legal.
Our state (where I was living at the time) had very tough laws, 8 hours classroom, live fire, passing a shooting test, etc. not to mention expensive.
On top of everything else the powers that be in charge of the whole mess at the state level drug their feet on reciprocal agreements with other states.
The bottom line is I went and got licensed to teach Utah due to the fact that it was cheaper there were real agreements in place and no live fire. Then I went back to my state and started getting folks legal with a Utah permit......worked for 4 years till my state dropped their recognition of Utah permits, and Utah felt the pressure and changed to requiring a person out of state to have their states permit first.
Bottom line for me:
There is nothing in the 2nd that says you may "keep and bear", but first you must pay a fee, then you have to prove to somebody you can shoot, then we will do a complete background check on you, then when we are good and ready we will let you know. Oh by the way we will also tell you where you can and can't exercise your "rights"
For many years now ( I have and continue to teach in several states) all my classes are free of charge.
To me its just giving back and helping my fellow citizens obtain what is rightfully theirs to begin with.
I am all for constitutional carry. In my experience folks who want to carry, also want to be safe and take care of themselves and their family's. But I don't really care, it is their right.
Not to mention the bad guys don't seek anybody's permission or do any training or have any respect for your or anybody else s safety.
I now reside in Wisconsin also, and we have a very good CCW law here. That said we will continue to need our permit to carry in other states. But there is always room for improvement...........and getting constitutional carry is the next step.
My big concern right now is universal background checks.
like I said just my 2 cents, your mileage may vary
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Old 03-29-2017, 01:41 PM
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We've had it in Arizona since 2010. When it was signed into law, a local newspaper columnist wrote a "doom and gloom" hit piece on it, predicting the inevitable anarchy and bloodbath. 18 months later (to his credit) he penned what basically amounted to a retraction. The sky didn't fall. People still did stupid things but no more than usual.

Also, Arizona retained it's permit system and recommended that people take the class and get the permit anyway, which I did. The Arizona permit is honored in just about all western states except for the 3 Pacific coast states. No comment on that.
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Old 03-29-2017, 02:18 PM
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I was still working full time in LE at the time Arizona passed it. I discussed it with the Chief. He and I were of the opinion that it would not really change anything for us here. Since then, doesn't seem to me that anything has changed. I'm aware that in some other states, carrying a firearm without the necessity for Government approval,i.e., forms, applications, reviews, licenses, renewals, etc. is an alien and frightening concept to many. Different cultures with regard to firearms I guess. Perhaps, sort of like the different culture with regard to firearms between the US and UK......ymmv
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Old 03-29-2017, 03:27 PM
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In my home state of NH, I believe the bill was on our former governor's desk at least once, and rejected, before the last election. Only been in place now a month or so? Anyway, many folks here were looking at our neighbor state of ME to see how things went there. I want to say constitutional carry was in place there for over a year, before us. As others have said, there was no blood running in the streets or other kinds of calamitous chaos. I believe, the violent crime rate may have even dropped a bit. So we'll see what happens here, and I'm sure like we were watching ME others will be watching us, but I don't expect much of anything very different will occur. Besides maybe a few less innocent victims of violent crime. But only time will tell. And maybe Constitutional Carry ISNT necessarily the best thing for every state, even though I happen to be an advocate of it, and am glad my home state is. The people gotta decide and get the right leaders in office to make it happen, if so. Like we did here. I can say, looking at things now, and the ways things are changing, I would be very hesitant to move to any other state that did not have it in place. But that's just me. Good luck in WI! I have some family there.
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Old 03-29-2017, 03:31 PM
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If you don't want it in Wisconsin toss it across the river, we will take it in Minnesota.
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Old 03-29-2017, 04:32 PM
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Let me understand this: regarding Constitutional Carry, people are asking themselves: "should I choose freedom, or not?" America is in much worse condition than I thought; I knew that we are now "Soviet lite," but this is ridiculous! Wake up, people. Smell the freedom wafting into the room. Breathe it. Live it. Celebrate it.





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Old 03-29-2017, 04:39 PM
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I'm all for training and practice. I'm not all for needing a permission slip to exercise my rights under the Constitution. I don't need a class and background check to write a letter to my elected officials. I don't need a class and background check to vote. I don't need to go to law school before I can exercise my rights under the 4th or 5th Amendments.

Not having a permit or class has never yet stopped a criminal, but it has probably deterred many law abiding citizens from being able to protect themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crittrgittr View Post
We (WI) have a proposal out there now for constitutional carry. I always was in favor of it, until now. Now I'm undecided if it's a good idea for people without classes or background checks to be carrying. I am a current permit carrier. What are some thoughts from those of you who already have it in your state? I do believe in the 2nd amendment also. TORN.
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Old 03-29-2017, 06:38 PM
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The same tired arguments I heard when WI instituted "shall issue" CC several years ago have been dusted off by the usual suspects and are now being spouted by the media in alarmist tones.

Thirteen other states currently have permitless (Constitutional) carry and I have yet to hear about any widespread problems. If instituted in WI, I don't think things would be any different here.

The current "training" requirements for obtaining a CCL in WI is minimal. For instance a hunters safety certificate (which deals little if any with handguns and not at all for self defense) satisfies the training requirement. No live fire/fingerprints/photos are required. Applications and renewals are inexpensive, can be completed on line and are processed rapidly.

In the 5 1/2 years since passage of shall issue in WI, very few problems with licensed CC holders have been reported. Certainly no more so than other states with more "stringent" training requirements.
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Old 03-29-2017, 08:02 PM
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Maine, where I live has Constitutional and permitted carry.
Permitted carry for those who may want to travel to other states and Constitutional carry within state.
For permitted you must take a safety class or have served in the military. For CC you need only be legally able to own a firearm.
Haven't been any blood baths, no shootouts in Dodge at high noon.
Recently a bill to lower the age to carry to 18 was voted down in the state legislature.
Evidently some legislators feel it's ok to trust an 18 year old to carry an M-16 in the military protecting their hides but can't trust those same individuals to carry a .38 to protect their own hides in civilian life.
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Old 03-29-2017, 08:09 PM
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I've actually read the Constitution, all of it, I see no mention of fee's and classes to excercise a right.
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Old 03-29-2017, 08:16 PM
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In PA there are no classes. It's a shall issue State. For a license you have to pass a background check, same one as for firearms purchase. Takes 2 min. Open carry is legal but there are certain quirks

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Old 03-29-2017, 08:20 PM
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The people who wrote the constitution intended for the states to regulate guns, not the federal govt. The idea was that the states should be as powerful as the feds if it came time to fish or cut bait.
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Old 03-29-2017, 08:41 PM
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PA is the easiest state I have encountered in regards to licensing. I was driving through on a planned trip to MD last year. I had done my research and the best county in terms of non resident licensing along my route was Berks.

I went to the Reading Airport sub station, handed in my pre filled application, my drivers license, a $20.00 bill. The deputy typed my info into his computer, got the results, had me stand in front of a digital camera. Five minutes later, I had my PA license in my hand and was back on the road.

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In PA there are no classes. It's a shall issue State. For a license you have to pass a background check, same one as for firearms purchase. Takes 2 min. Open carry is legal but there are certain quirks

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Old 03-29-2017, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
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PA is the easiest state I have encountered in regards to licensing. I was driving through on a planned trip to MD last year. I had done my research and the best county in terms of non resident licensing along my route was Berks.

I went to the Reading Airport sub station, handed in my pre filled application, my drivers license, a $20.00 bill. The deputy typed my info into his computer, got the results, had me stand in front of a digital camera. Five minutes later, I had my PA license in my hand and was back on the road.
They're all like that. I'm in Bucks County and it's exactly the same thing. You're only problem may be Philadelphia but partially because it's a large city with many people and only one place to get your license

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Old 03-29-2017, 09:09 PM
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They're all like that. I'm in Bucks County and it's exactly the same thing. You're only problem may be Philadelphia but partially because it's a large city with many people and only one place to get your license

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Old 03-29-2017, 09:12 PM
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Old 03-29-2017, 09:14 PM
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Everyone from NY that I know goes to Centre or Lackawanna Counties.
That makes sense. It's close to NY. I'm another 2 hours/100 miles or so south

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Old 03-29-2017, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
I always was in favor of it, until now. Now I'm undecided if it's a good idea for people without classes or background checks to be carrying.
I once thought this way but the statistics speak for themselves in the states where CC is the law and nothing has changed. We are shall issue in Oregon but with a mandatory class requirement.
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Old 03-29-2017, 09:36 PM
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Thank you all for your responses. I see value in all. I am a firm believer in 2nd amendment and own and carry numerous handguns. I have had a permit here since the first year we could carry. I do believe we should have the right to carry, but am worried about those that will go buy a gun and not train or familiarize themselves with it. If stats show that the states that have constitutional carry have lower crime rates, that's great
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Old 03-29-2017, 09:37 PM
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That makes sense. It's close to NY. I'm another 2 hours/100 miles or so south

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Old 03-29-2017, 09:39 PM
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Tanner Sports is one of the best gun shops I've ever been in. Great prices.
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Old 03-29-2017, 10:31 PM
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The only issue that I see is that some sheriffs won't issue to non county residents. It seems that they have discretion in that. Dauphin and Northampton are two I know won't issue to non residents. It's pretty easy since most, if not all, sheriffs have websites with firearms licensing information.

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They're all like that. I'm in Bucks County and it's exactly the same thing. You're only problem may be Philadelphia but partially because it's a large city with many people and only one place to get your license

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Old 03-29-2017, 10:43 PM
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You think nobody is carrying now without a permit or class? I can tell you that the 8 hour class I took did not make me or break me. Adults do, sometimes have common sense
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Old 03-30-2017, 02:09 AM
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I do believe in the 2nd amendment also.
No, you don't
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Old 03-30-2017, 05:20 AM
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No, you don't
Ease up, Smoke. It ain't the worst thing I've ever heard. You guys wouldn't believe how ignorant people are of the law. I heard one guy cheerfully explain how it was legal to resist arrest by a police officer so long as you believed the arrest wasn't warranted. He also mentioned at least one incident where he committed assault with a deadly weapon, shoving a pistol in some guy's face because he was hanging around outside his yard's fence. A place colloquially known as a "public sidewalk".

People don't understand basic legal concepts, like the reasonable person standard or the duty to retreat in public vs at home.

Now, on the one hand, I'm against government regulation of anything "gun". If I want it, and the police are allowed to have it, I oughta be able to buy it. Black rifles, automatics, subguns, everything.

On the other hand, there's an awful lot of really stupid people out there.

My conclusion is that nitwits with CCWs are the price we'd have to pay. Hell, lack of a CCW permit process didn't stop said nitwits in my neck of the woods before. And, if I believe in individual responsibility, then I can't use the "but people are dumb" excuse.

I also don't think that written CCW tests are particularly effective at filtering out problem idiots. If you've got a 50-question test, and require a 90% to pass, then that means you can screw up 5 really critical concepts. Forget ensuring people "train" or somesuch. There's simply no way unless you embraced subjective standards.
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Old 03-30-2017, 07:12 AM
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A lot of great replies here...

One thing I'd like to add... I don't look at the Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms as an outcome based crime statistic exercise. I mean, if the crime rate in areas where gun carry was prohibited was lower than others, I wouldn't join the Sarah Brady fan club. I don't advocate my God-given right to keep and bear arms because a crime statistic backs me up... these rights are not derived from a spreadsheet.
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:00 AM
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Constitutional Rights aren't subject to terms and conditions. They are Individual Rights, not subject to the will of the collective.

Even though we can all cite examples of our Enumerated Rights being interpreted and trampled, shouldn't make it acceptable.
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:16 AM
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Thank you all for your responses. I see value in all. I am a firm believer in 2nd amendment and own and carry numerous handguns. I have had a permit here since the first year we could carry. I do believe we should have the right to carry, but am worried about those that will go buy a gun and not train or familiarize themselves with it. If stats show that the states that have constitutional carry have lower crime rates, that's great
I'm more worried about people who buy and drive a car on the same road I'm using . . .
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:22 AM
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There should be no restrictions on carrying a concealed firearm anywhere in the country. If you do something stupid with the firearm, you should go to prison for a very long time. If you do not do anything stupid, you should be left alone.

Mr. Muggins brings up a good point. You can injure, maim and kill a lot of people with a motor vehicle in a short period of time.
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:49 AM
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Old 03-30-2017, 09:17 AM
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A lot of great replies here...

One thing I'd like to add... I don't look at the Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms as an outcome based crime statistic exercise. I mean, if the crime rate in areas where gun carry was prohibited was lower than others, I wouldn't join the Sarah Brady fan club. I don't advocate my God-given right to keep and bear arms because a crime statistic backs me up... these rights are not derived from a spreadsheet.
this a very, very strong point. I agree with it, but I can relate to the OP's concerns, even though I could get over those concerns just as quickly in consideration of 'The Big Picture'.
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Old 03-30-2017, 09:51 AM
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Being newer to this hobby of mine (and gun ownership in general), I'm still forming my opinion on all of this. I get the rights given to us, and on the flip side i see people at the range who are carrying on their person, not bringing their gun in a case who shoot only a few rounds and struggle to hit the target. A permit won't make them a better/safer shot, but training could.
When living in SC I was going to get my permit down there, but moved back to WI before that happened so picked up my permit here. I can say what SC requires is far more involved than what WI does.

Where I stand now, is that I will do what is right for me. I believe that regardless of my right to carry, I also have a responsibility to be safe and knowledgeable when doing so.
Meaning before I begin to carry in public, I will make sure I am comfortable with all aspects that go with it and take the training I feel would help that cause.
As i learned doing some police scenarios in a simulator recently while in a citizen's pd academy; my being a decent shot on paper targets means nothing when put in a situation that is revolving and changing.

Of course, just my .02
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Old 03-30-2017, 10:08 AM
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Historically, gun control was used as a means to keep politically undesirable people from being able to defend themselves. Not just in the south, but in places like New York City and Chicago as well.

I don't know what the SC training requirements are, but SC does not appear to be particularly 2A friendly from what I've seen. Training requirements are part of gun control in many instances, not anything to do with proficiency or safety.

Police simulators are good training... for police officers. Civilians are far less likely to get into those situations. When is the last time you did a vehicle stop?



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Being newer to this hobby of mine (and gun ownership in general), I'm still forming my opinion on all of this. I get the rights given to us, and on the flip side i see people at the range who are carrying on their person, not bringing their gun in a case who shoot only a few rounds and struggle to hit the target. A permit won't make them a better/safer shot, but training could.
When living in SC I was going to get my permit down there, but moved back to WI before that happened so picked up my permit here. I can say what SC requires is far more involved than what WI does.

Where I stand now, is that I will do what is right for me. I believe that regardless of my right to carry, I also have a responsibility to be safe and knowledgeable when doing so.
Meaning before I begin to carry in public, I will make sure I am comfortable with all aspects that go with it and take the training I feel would help that cause.
As i learned doing some police scenarios in a simulator recently while in a citizen's pd academy; my being a decent shot on paper targets means nothing when put in a situation that is revolving and changing.

Of course, just my .02
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Old 03-30-2017, 10:18 AM
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Police simulators are good training... for police officers. Civilians are far less likely to get into those situations. When is the last time you did a vehicle stop?
Understood, my view was just a piece of paper is static and the environment is controlled at the range. In a potential self defense situation, it will not be.
Will I need to train for a hostage situation in a 300 degree area? Not likely. But the chance someone is coming at me or my family? That's what I will want to train for and at least attempt to be prepared for. Again only speaking for myself.
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Old 03-30-2017, 10:24 AM
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In my opinion the only restriction to carrying a firearm should be that you are an American citizen legally in this country. Once you prove that you should be able to carry a gun and vote; at the same time if you so desire.
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Old 03-30-2017, 10:38 AM
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Not to accuse anyone here in this thread of doing so, but it seems to me both extremes of the carry debate use anecdote or speculation to excess. We've all heard the "gunfights at high noon on Main Street" predictions from the antis but these seem to be mirrored by the "dude in baggy pants with the sagging waistband from his gun" photos, some of which may have even been posted here .

As other posters mentioned, personally I come down on the side of more freedom and rights rather than less, as messy as that might be. We can personally prepare and train and should encourage as many others as possible to do so, but the lack of these measures shouldn't restrict one's rights.
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Old 03-30-2017, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by keith44spl View Post
My goodness, the very thought of the un-washed masses of law-biding citizens being
allow to carry a tool of convenience to defend themselves against un-lawful menace
without the permission of the state or the powers to be...
For all are guilty till proven innocent by way of a back-ground check.




Oh wait, isn't that an inalienable right here in the good ol US of A, the right to defend one's self ???




.
My thoughts exactly! It's amazing how many people forget that we are supposed to have the inalienable, God given rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

My un-infringed ownership and possession of firearms is necessary to achieve each of those three constitutional guarantees. I do not need a government placing their controls on me due to the actions of criminals, that's a whole separate issue that needs to be dealt with separate from my constitutional rights.

This said, I get it that the more people in possession of firearms will probably result in more people being injured and/or killed with firearms. It's a dangerous world, but that should not mean that my rights get trampled. Let's not forget, constitutional carry does not do away with laws pertaining to assault, manslaughter, murder, robbery, negligence, etc. Nor does it do away with Civil liabilities. Criminals and culpable people will still have to account for their actions...

More people with access to cars/roadways means that more auto-related deaths occur, more people with more access to lakes, oceans, and waterways mean more people will drown/die in lakes, oceans, and waterways, etc., etc. Funny though, you hardly ever hear about the number of people that avoid harm and/or death due to having a firearm. Many, many times the number harmed by them...

Why is it that guns are the thing that government consistently singles out, with passion, for control? Well, because they inherently feel the need to control people, that is the very definition of politics. People having guns gets in the way of controlling people... I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but it amazes me how many people in our country are clueless to these realities. When government control grows to truly controlling the people, the people can be suppressed. This is the way human nature, and the world, works. Look around, past and present, plenty of examples! And, this is why our country was founded on a principal of freedom; government for the people, by the people (even the stupid ones...). Unfortunately, human nature is also to take things for granted, to not take initiative, to just be led, thus the steady erosion of our country's founding values.

Yes, some more people may be harmed with constitutional carry, but freedom ain't free. For proof of this, look no further than the 1.3+ million Americans that have been killed defending our freedoms! Mini rant over.
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Old 03-30-2017, 12:09 PM
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I wonder how many law breakers line up and pay for a permit.
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Old 03-30-2017, 12:55 PM
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I've actually read the Constitution, all of it, I see no mention of fee's and classes to excercise a right.
One should ask himself, Why would your leaders want to keep their tax paying "Subjects" under control, in the first place? It's, time for Thought folks! It may be too late to do anything about our rights now, but at least "THINK" about how we have lost so many of them, and "LEARN".

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Old 03-30-2017, 02:05 PM
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Ease up, Smoke. It ain't the worst thing I've ever heard. You guys wouldn't believe how ignorant people are of the law. I heard one guy cheerfully explain how it was legal to resist arrest by a police officer so long as you believed the arrest wasn't warranted. He also mentioned at least one incident where he committed assault with a deadly weapon, shoving a pistol in some guy's face because he was hanging around outside his yard's fence. A place colloquially known as a "public sidewalk".

People don't understand basic legal concepts, like the reasonable person standard or the duty to retreat in public vs at home.

Now, on the one hand, I'm against government regulation of anything "gun". If I want it, and the police are allowed to have it, I oughta be able to buy it. Black rifles, automatics, subguns, everything.

On the other hand, there's an awful lot of really stupid people out there.

My conclusion is that nitwits with CCWs are the price we'd have to pay. Hell, lack of a CCW permit process didn't stop said nitwits in my neck of the woods before. And, if I believe in individual responsibility, then I can't use the "but people are dumb" excuse.

I also don't think that written CCW tests are particularly effective at filtering out problem idiots. If you've got a 50-question test, and require a 90% to pass, then that means you can screw up 5 really critical concepts. Forget ensuring people "train" or somesuch. There's simply no way unless you embraced subjective standards.
If you want to mandate training for exercising a civil liberty, I want you to show me that not mandating training, which is the norm, is causing a real problem.

At present 16 (?) states permit "Constitutional Carry" (no permit required to carry a firearm period.) Several states issue permits with no training requirement at all and several others allow permitless open carry (Again no training requirement).

According to the CDC accidental firearms deaths are at an all time low while firearms ownership is at historic highs.

There are already a whole bunch of people out there carrying guns with no mandated training at all where are all the firearms related accidents
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Old 03-30-2017, 02:08 PM
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Wow! A lot said here. I never said I was against this new new law, only that I had concerns. I like the analogy of cars as well-very good point. I just know how careless people are with even hunting rifles at a public range where people are watching them, let alone with a concealed weapon they might have to use with no concern for what might be around them when firing it. I guess I can't control how much someone else is/isn't going to train, but just make sure I'm responsible enough to do so. I have no doubt that killing/injuries will rise-I am actually expecting that for the "bad guys".
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