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  #1  
Old 12-19-2014, 12:09 AM
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Default .380 Not Good Defensive Caliber??

i was talking to a fellow who told me that the 380 was a worthless choice for a defensive round. I think that a larger caliber would probably be better, but a 380 with well placed hits would be a good caliber to conceal carry. What do you think?
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Old 12-19-2014, 12:11 AM
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Default .380 Poor Defensive Caliber??

i was talking to a fellow who told me that the 380 was a worthless choice for a defensive round. I think that a larger caliber would probably be better, but a 380 with well placed hits would be a good caliber to conceal carry. What do you think?
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Old 12-19-2014, 12:12 AM
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Here we go again....
Ask him if he would like to be shot with one at close range....

My wife's CC is a Kal-Tec .380, 8 rounds will be more then enough I think.
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Old 12-19-2014, 12:23 AM
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Welcome to the forum, from Louisville.

There are many threads on this subject. If you use the search function you'll find lots of them.

You'll also find that the opinions fall into very predictable categories, especially the "shot placement is everything" contingent. There will be people denouncing the .380 as a ridiculous mouse gun that will get you killed, and those who carry guns in .380 daily and feel quite comfortable.

What you won't find is consensus.

Good luck.
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Old 12-19-2014, 12:30 AM
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The Sept/Oct 1913 "American Handgunner" had an excellent article on stopping power. It was very well done. I suggest you read it, consider what style of handgun you want to carry and make your decision. The 32 acp ranked first, 72% one shot stops, closely followed by the 380, 62%, .357 mag. 61% then 22 rimfire 60%. It is an article well worth reading.
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Old 12-19-2014, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STCM(SW) View Post
Here we go again....
Ask him if he would like to be shot with one at close range....

My wife's CC is a Kal-Tec .380, 8 rounds will be more then enough I think.
You said 'Here we go again", I am fairly new to the S&W Forum, so I get the feeling that this topic has probably been discussed multiple times.
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Old 12-19-2014, 12:35 AM
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Much as with 9mm, long considered not a real self defense round by some, improvements in technology have made the .380 a viable choice for self defense carry.

I saw a lot of people who were shot in my career. Over 300 or so. No matter what caliber they were shot with, it pretty much stopped them from doing whatever it was they were doing before they got shot.

Only one guy, who was probably stoned, ever told me that it didn't really hurt. Maybe not, but he still was lying on the sidewalk when I got there.

The thing that I think some people don't really consider is that if someone is so recoil shy to a particular caliber or gun, it's less likely that they'll shoot when they need to. If my wife were too shoot someone with 10 rounds from our Walther P22, it would be better than her not shooting someone with our 642.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.
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Old 12-19-2014, 12:52 AM
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380 may not be a real powerhouse, but it is definitely not worthless. Nowadays, there are 380s about the same size as the previous generations 25 autos (Ruger LCP = 1908 Colt 25). There are also 9mm the size of the older 380s (Ruger LC9 = Walther PPK). 32ACP was used by European police for years as a duty weapon. 380 shoots a bigger, heavier bullet faster than the 32. You just have to pick a good 380 load that offers decent penetration (FMJ or a premium bullet such as Golddot) and strive for good shot placement. 380 is definitely more effective than a stern verbal warning. It is about the most power you can get that will fit in a shirt pocket or watch pocket. I would sure rather have a small 38 Special or 9mm, but the 380 in your pocket sure beats the 44 Magnum left at home.

Last edited by texmex; 12-19-2014 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 12-19-2014, 01:04 AM
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There are choices better than the .380 for stopping power

However the .380 is FAR Superior to carrying nothing
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Old 12-19-2014, 01:09 AM
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"it pretty much stopped them from doing whatever it was they were doing before they got shot."

That right there! Someone starts shooting with a .380 and whatever was going on just got a drastic change. Seems like a viable option to me.

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Old 12-19-2014, 03:12 AM
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The 380 has been a popular choice for use in compact autos since it's
debut in 1908. Many different guns have been chambered for it the
world over, from near junk to very high quality. It seems to be more
popular than ever here in the US with many new autos introduced in
the last several years aimed at the self defense market. If it's
worthless for defense it's taking folks an awful long time to figure it
out.
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Old 12-19-2014, 04:00 AM
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Simple and easy reply to your question.....
What would you wish to be shot with? Think of it before you reply... Me, I wish no more holes anywhere...
Do some testing with a .380 before you dismiss it. Take some one gallon milk jugs and fill them half full to about full with water. Place them at the "range" you might feel threatened enough to deploy your last response weapon... Your .380.. You will be surprised what it will do at the range you NEED it. Remember, it is not a long range combat weapon but it is much better then NOTHING. Kyle
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Old 12-19-2014, 04:03 AM
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Personally, I don't have a problem with a 22 much less a 380.
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Old 12-19-2014, 04:22 AM
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I've looked a few YouTube videos on .380 ballistic tests. The conclusion of a couple of these tests is that it would be far more effective for defense purposes to use a 'ball' round rather than a hollow point, because the 'ball' penetrates twice as far. Would you agree with this?
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Old 12-19-2014, 04:26 AM
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Several YouTube videos on .380 tests have concluded that it is better to use a 380 'ball' round verses a hollow point, because the 'ball' penetrates twice as deep. Would you agree with this?
  #16  
Old 12-19-2014, 05:36 AM
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Google an Alternative Look at Handgun Stopping Power by Greg Ellifritz. His report reveals the same as GaryS' observations. From .380ACP through .45ACP the results are eerily similar.
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Old 12-19-2014, 05:45 AM
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My EDC is a CS45, BUG is a .32acp, either way, something is going to stop.

If I empty a mag in someone center mass, and they continue to close,
it'll just be a really interesting day for them...
at that point its totally justified in using nothing but dirty hand techniques.
Eye gouge, throat cartilage break, etc...

Of course, this is why the 3-rd Mozambique Drill is so important...
if the opponent is wearing body armour,
the two to the chest will just tickle...
the third to the head tends to put a stop to things
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Old 12-19-2014, 06:18 AM
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I carry a BG380 daily, in a pocket holster and take it everywhere. As someone once said "the best defensive gun you can get is the one you got with you when you need it"
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Old 12-19-2014, 06:18 AM
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Yes, this topic may have come up before...enjoy all 2,229 posts (not counting yours) :

http://smith-wessonforum.com/searchr...+defense&sa=Go

If you have a .380 you needn't feel undergunned. If you are looking for a carry gun, there are more powerful alternatives at or near the same size (9 mm and .40 S & W). If this is a hypothetical discussion the threads above will cover just about everything.
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Old 12-19-2014, 06:21 AM
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Another angle to look at is...... .380s tend to be "mostly" blow-back operated vs. lock breach.........

Some find the recoil of a .380 blow-back much "harder" than a 9mm.


Modern ammo .380 is OK for self-defense ...... but remember no handgun caliber equals a rifle in stopping power.
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Old 12-19-2014, 07:14 AM
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380 was enough gun to kill Arch Duke Ferdinand, and thus begin WWW I. How much more could you ask of any handgun? Ivan
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Old 12-19-2014, 08:05 AM
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380 fmj ball is good and better than lighter 380 Hp for defense. The lighter 380 HP lacks penetration to reach vitals.
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Old 12-19-2014, 09:06 AM
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380 is considered the minimum by most. As you read, one forum member carries a 32 and doesn't feel under armed. The confidence in your gun is important. Getting your hits with a 32 or 380 is more important than misses with a 45 or 357.

That being said, my wife's Sig 232 in 380, to me, recoils more than my M&P compact in 40 for roughly the same size gun.

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Old 12-19-2014, 09:10 AM
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Carry what you shoot well. A .22 in the eye beats a .40 in the shoulder any day.
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Old 12-19-2014, 09:19 AM
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So the odds that you will ever need to fire your gun in self defense. Multiplied by the odds that a larger caliber bullet would significantly increase a positive outcome for you. Yes, you never know and be prepared...........

Might as well play powerball.

I'm buying myself a Glock 42 next month and putting my Glock 19 on the night stand.
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Old 12-19-2014, 10:33 AM
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First off, I carry a .380 sometimes. And I fully trust every grown-up to decide what's best for his/her own carry based on his/her individual circumstances/requirements.

Years ago in the early online caliber wars, I coined the signature line "Shot placement is king; adequate penetration is queen; everything else is just angels dancing on the heads of pins." The first question, accordingly, is can you hit the vital areas (heart/aorta, brain/spinal cord) with your gun and ammo at the quick speed necessary? (A related question is, do you know where these structures are in a human attacker? Gray's Anatomy can be found online and is worth a study: Gray, Henry. 1918. Anatomy of the Human Body .) And then let's look at adequacy of penetration to damage those structures (a bullet that won't penetrate to the vitals is not going to suffice) . . . and only then should we think about energy, expansion, etc.

My friend Mas (who is kind enough to not give me grief for doing so, myself) says, "Friends don't let friends carry mouse guns." I've thought about this quite a bit, because when Mas says something, he's got a hell of a lot of research and experience behind his statement. Which got me thinking about the whole "mousegun" thing.

Mas certainly has a point in this particular statement. First of all, unless you're a pretty skilled/experienced shooter, small guns are difficult to work - their size makes them hard to shoot accurately with even the minimal recoil of the light rounds they launch (and accurate shooting is crucial for the shot placement necessary for adequate penetration with light rounds) and they don't always function as well as larger guns. And the rounds themselves aren't as reliably effective: I've worked on three separate shooting cases in which .380 JHPs failed to adequately penetrate. On the other hand, I've worked on so many cases in which a .380 was used quite effectively - I've never seen a case in which .380 ball failed to penetrate adequately.

Based on the shooting cases I've worked on, I believe that .380s (and .32 ACPs, FWIW) can be adequately penetrative to get to "the good stuff" if ball ammo is used. I don't trust these calibers to penetrate adequately with JHP rounds - and gel tests confirm that no .32 or .380 JHP presently on the market will meet FBI penetration protocols.

Naturally, the performance of your ammo in your gun is what's at issue. I (personally) carry ball in .380 or .32 ACP. I'm not weighing in here on whether ball ammo is a good idea from an overpenetration standpoint - I've worked on one case in which .380 ball overpenetrated the leg of the intended target and shot another person beyond him . . . but the leg probably isn't where an expert will be aiming, is it?
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Old 12-19-2014, 11:36 AM
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James Bond likes the Beretta 32 cal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU98uP7pXA8
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Old 12-19-2014, 11:40 AM
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Depending on the round, .380 can be adequate. 9x19, .38 Special, .357, or something in .45 would be better.
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Old 12-19-2014, 11:48 AM
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In my humble opinion, carry what's comfortable and concealable. Who cares what the caliber is as long as you can shoot well enough to put holes in the bad guy. The more important question is: "how accurate can you shoot when you're in a highly intense situation with some nut job intending to inflict bodily harm?" In my experience with bullseye shooting, even a small case of nerves can ruin your day. When your life is in danger I would guess that you'd be in a high state of anxiety.
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Old 12-19-2014, 11:50 AM
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OK, everyone hold on a second. I'm out of pop corn. BRB.

Bob
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Old 12-19-2014, 11:52 AM
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I shoot my Bersa .380 pretty well, but it is a bit on the "barky" side for recoil. I can put all of the rounds into a 9" paper plate at 25 feet, which I think is sufficient.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Krell1 View Post
In my humble opinion, carry what's comfortable and concealable. Who cares what the caliber is as long as you can shoot well enough to put holes in the bad guy. The more important question is: "how accurate can you shoot when you're in a highly intense situation with some nut job intending to inflict bodily harm?" In my experience with bullseye shooting, even a small case of nerves can ruin your day. When your life is in danger I would guess that you'd be in a high state of anxiety.
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Old 12-19-2014, 12:08 PM
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My wife has good placement and quick / accurate follow up shots with her Sig P238. I'd much rather her use that than my Ruger SR40c which she limp wrists often.
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Old 12-19-2014, 12:32 PM
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Just a few weeks ago someone killed a black bear with a 380 near Springfield MA . Seems to be a pretty good recommendation
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Old 12-19-2014, 12:35 PM
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So I guess if you get hit with a .380 it will just bounce off you and sting a little.

My latest purchase, Sig P238 Equinox .380

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Old 12-19-2014, 12:39 PM
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Well I carry an NAA in .22 short. I don't feel undergunned at at all. I feel like I can make sufficient noise and I won't pause to wonder whether my assailant is rolling around laughing or has actually been injured by a bullet.

That oughta take the heat off the .380 crowd...haha...it's a cute little gun.

Seriously, the .380 is quite accurate in the PPK. I like mine. It will hit water bottles out to fifty yards rested. The ammo isn't cheap and the 9mms are better supplied and practiced with. AVOID HYDRASHOKS...they aren't worth a darn. Enjoy yourself in your search.
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Old 12-19-2014, 12:48 PM
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There are a lot of self proclaimed "experts" out there you just love to force their opinions on anybody near them. Pay no attention and carry whatever you're comfortable with.
I've been known to carry a .25acp from time to time. I don't have a problem with it and really don't care what other people think.
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Old 12-19-2014, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlight View Post
i was talking to a fellow who told me that the 380 was a worthless choice for a defensive round. I think that a larger caliber would probably be better, but a 380 with well placed hits would be a good caliber to conceal carry. What do you think?
I sometimes carry my Colt Mustang Plus II which is a .380 holstered in my front jean pocket. Ammo is Remington Golden Saber JHP. I have qualified for last several years for yearly CCW license qualifications. I alternate between that and my S&W 9mm semi auto Model # 3919 for
CCW. I have never felt unsafe with my .380 that some call a "mouse gun". I agree that proper shot placement, right ammo, and mind set R key factors. Shoot what you carry and feel comfortable with. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!
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  #38  
Old 12-19-2014, 01:12 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soNdX36P-3E
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Old 12-19-2014, 01:27 PM
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No it's not a .357, but for a "bad breath" gun, if he is close enough to tell what he had garlic with his lunch it's OK.
  #40  
Old 12-19-2014, 01:58 PM
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Buffalo Bore 95 gr. hollow points are what my wife carries in her Sig P238

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVCsosglj8E
  #41  
Old 12-19-2014, 02:51 PM
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I mentioned this one other time. Once, many years ago when I was working vice, I got a no-shot stop with a .25acp. I was about to take a real ***-whippin, but when I stuck that .25 in his ear, he stopped.
  #42  
Old 12-19-2014, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forrestinmathews View Post
Well I carry an NAA in .22 short. I don't feel undergunned at at all. I feel like I can make sufficient noise and I won't pause to wonder whether my assailant is rolling around laughing or has actually been injured by a bullet.

That oughta take the heat off the .380 crowd...haha...it's a cute little gun.

Seriously, the .380 is quite accurate in the PPK. I like mine. It will hit water bottles out to fifty yards rested. The ammo isn't cheap and the 9mms are better supplied and practiced with. AVOID HYDRASHOKS...they aren't worth a darn. Enjoy yourself in your search.
Always wanted a NAA .22 short, never got around to buying one.
I also have like yourself the PPK, Colt Government and Sig P238 in .380, all excellent shooters and easy to carry. Also have the PPK in .32 ACP
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Old 12-19-2014, 05:31 PM
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I carry a Sig P238 (.380) - daily 24/7 - with a 7 round mag & 1 in the tube, cocked and locked, in a front pocket holster. I also carry two spare mags in my cell phone pouch.

This is the ammo I carry:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3b3ZGmZuT0

At face to face distances, I have no concerns!
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Old 12-19-2014, 06:02 PM
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.32 PPK........ how were you influenced????? LOL

I carried a .380 PPK for years as my suit gun...... replaced it with a 3913 in 1990...... still does Tux duty >>>LOL

Last year picked up a .32 PPK/S with 4 mags for less than $400 ....just couldn't resist....
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Old 12-19-2014, 06:13 PM
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.32 PPK........ how were you influenced????? LOL

I carried a .380 PPK for years as my suit gun...... replaced it with a 3913 in 1990...... still does Tux duty >>>LOL

Last year picked up a .32 PPK/S with 4 mags for less than $400 ....just couldn't resist....
Only took me about 20 years looking at the Walther PPK before finally buying the 2.

The .32 is so pleasant to shoot, the .380 I get a kick out of.

Don't wear a Tux, I prefer a Zoot suit.
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Old 12-19-2014, 07:55 PM
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For many years I carried a .25 Colt Vest Pocket when nothing else fit the situation.
I have since retired that and carry a .380 LCP, but I have a 380 PPK that I carried as well.
Those were my easy grab and go guns, normally I carry my Glock 27 or mye Smith Md#36

I see nothing wrong with it.
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  #47  
Old 12-19-2014, 09:27 PM
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Welcome to the forum!

FYI: on other forums this type of thread is known as a 'caliber war'. Fortunately, you're on a very polite forum.

That said; any of them will do a job on the bad guy. So do not worry about the caliber, ammo, type of gun, etc. Just start with whatever YOU are comfortable with. Over time, your tastes will probably change and you will likely find yourself going up or down in calibers. You'll perhaps switch from semi-auto to revolver.

Don't worry about it.
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Old 12-19-2014, 09:59 PM
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Default 380 is a bad choice for numerous reasons.....

Let's face it, most any handgun round is a poor stopper. If you knew you were going to be in a gunfight or other shooting situation would you choose a handgun? I think not. Most anyone familiar with rifles will tell you that a 30/30 Winchester round is only a marginal deer cartridge. Deer are typically around 175 pounds, about the same as the average man. So if a 30/30 which produces many times the energy of a 380 is only a marginal caliber, what does that make the 380? But, there's another factor: the gun you have with you when you need it is far better than the Howitzer you have back in the shed. If a 380 is the biggest gun you are likely going to carry all that's left is finding the best, most reliable ammo for it. I prefer the 32 acp round over the 380 based on the reliability factor. I've had numerous 380 guns over the years, including various Walthers and Sigs, most of which would just not consistently feed and chamber a round. The same guns in 32acp I have found to be much more reliable. So, even though the 32acp is of lesser power I would choose it due to the reliability issue alone (a 44 magnum that is not reliable every time you pull the trigger is worthless as a defensive piece....are you going to trust it to go "bang" 100% of the time?) I really can see no reason to buy a 380 caliber gun today. Why? because you can get a 9mm gun in the same or close to the same size and weight and the 9mm is much more powerful and frequently much more reliable than a 380...the ammo is also more readily available and costs less than 380 ammo, in most cases. I really don't see why anyone would really want to buy a 380 since there are so many other, even cheaper, options that are much better to own.
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  #49  
Old 12-19-2014, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlight View Post
You said 'Here we go again", I am fairly new to the S&W Forum, so I get the feeling that this topic has probably been discussed multiple times.
Don't worry about it, we have a few people on here that can get a little touchy.
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Old 12-19-2014, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12string View Post
James Bond likes the Beretta 32 cal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU98uP7pXA8
Actually, the Beretta Jetfire Bond used was 25cal. The PPK Major Boothroyd gave him is 7.65m/32cal. There's a story behind the change, pretty sure it's been detailed elsewhere here.
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