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Old 04-03-2017, 04:20 PM
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Default Self defense properly defined

A few days ago this news came up but I waited to see what the police would do to the young man who survived this incident:

EarthLink - U.S. News

(c) 2017 Associated Press/US News

Three home invaders all killed by a 23 year old man with a rifle. He will not be charged. The driver of the car that brought the three cohorts to the home they invaded, that is a different story. Charged with murder in the first degree and she says she is not responsible and the victim could have shot the three perps in their legs. A classic moronic statement.

I do want folks to read the article, especially because it covers a case from a few years ago when a pharmacist shot a store invader, ran out and chased his partner, came back in and delivered a coup de gras
shot to the perp lying on the floor - convicted of first degree murder. He should have known better.
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Old 04-03-2017, 04:33 PM
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I'm glad things will be ok for the young man that defended himself.
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Old 04-03-2017, 04:34 PM
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I may be wrong, and if so, I'm sorry, but that little fat girl looks like she has the personality and brains of a Dixie cup. And her statement about "shooting them in the legs" proves it.

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Old 04-03-2017, 05:03 PM
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Nice looking house they broke into. I hope we eventually find out the distances involved and some of the particulars.
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Old 04-03-2017, 05:11 PM
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The young man in the home invasion had reasonable cause to believe he was in danger of serious injury or death. The Pharmacists, as he fired that last shot, not so much...

Larry
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Old 04-03-2017, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee's Landing Billy View Post
Nice looking house they broke into. I hope we eventually find out the distances involved and some of the particulars.
They've released some info, now that they decided not to charge him:

The burglars had stolen from the garage earlier in the day, and came back to burgle the house.

Zach, 23, a qualified small airplane pilot, rushed down stairs with his AR-15 assault rifle.

As he turned a corner from the hallway and into the kitchen he saw the masked intruders and sprayed them with gunfire.

His bullets thudded into the walls and refrigerator and also killed the three youths with each suffering a single bullet wound to the upper torso.

Zach, in his 911 call told police he had shot two burglars and did not realize that a third had crawled out of the house and had succumbed there.

Last edited by bigwheelzip; 04-03-2017 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 04-03-2017, 07:15 PM
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Shoot center mass; there is nothing worse than a wounded aggressor unless it is a mother protecting her babies.
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Old 04-04-2017, 12:42 PM
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His bullets thudded into the walls and refrigerator and also killed the three youths with each suffering a single bullet wound to the upper torso.
Sprayed them with bullets, killed some walls and the fridge, but each of the three were killed with a single shot to the chest? Hmmmmmm.......
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Old 04-04-2017, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Mule Packer View Post
I may be wrong, and if so, I'm sorry, but that little fat girl looks like she has the personality and brains of a Dixie cup. And her statement about "shooting them in the legs" proves it.

Maybe she should be kneecap'd

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Old 04-04-2017, 01:47 PM
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The article states:

"Oklahoma is one of 24 states which have laws allowing citizens to shoot someone if they believe the person threatens their safety, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures."

What??? Only 24? Can someone explain the above to me?

Pardon my ignorance, but something tells me that that statement doesn't, at the very least, tell the whole story -if it can even be regarded as factual as written. Or am I just not thinking correctly?

Regards,
Andy
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Old 04-04-2017, 03:56 PM
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The article states:

"Oklahoma is one of 24 states which have laws allowing citizens to shoot someone if they believe the person threatens their safety, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures."

What??? Only 24? Can someone explain the above to me?

Pardon my ignorance, but something tells me that that statement doesn't, at the very least, tell the whole story -if it can even be regarded as factual as written. Or am I just not thinking correctly?

Regards,
Andy
Quote out of context. They copied that number off the NCSL's website out of a much longer piece, according to which 24 states now have expressedly "stand your ground" laws; that doesn't really matter here, of course, because this is a "castle doctrine" case which, as the website also says, is pretty much accepted everywhere.
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Old 04-04-2017, 04:02 PM
Lee's Landing Billy Lee's Landing Billy is offline
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Originally Posted by RSanch111 View Post
Sprayed them with bullets, killed some walls and the fridge, but each of the three were killed with a single shot to the chest? Hmmmmmm.......
One round each and all are now "Room Temperature". How can that be, all I hear is that .223s are useless mouse shooters.
HMMMMMMM???
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Old 04-04-2017, 04:32 PM
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Been following g this story as well. The mother of one of the perps said that they didn't have a fighting chance against such a powerful rifle. What a bunch of idiots, they got what they deserved, shouldn't have been breaking in to people's houses to do God knows what

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Old 04-04-2017, 04:34 PM
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Quote out of context. They copied that number off the NCSL's website out of a much longer piece, according to which 24 states now have expressedly "stand your ground" laws; that doesn't really matter here, of course, because this is a "castle doctrine" case which, as the website also says, is pretty much accepted everywhere.

Thanks, Absalom. I was pretty sure something wasn't right there.

Andy
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Old 04-04-2017, 05:27 PM
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The mother of one of the perps said that they didn't have a fighting chance against such a powerful rifle.
"And they were such good boys, too. They sang in the choir, took dinner and blankets to the homeless, and were in the process of turning their lives around." Geesh!! Just once...once...I'd like to hear some mother of these types of scumbags say, "Well, it's about time that worthless piece of junk son of mine got blown away. Heck! I should've drowned him as a pup!"
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Old 04-04-2017, 11:41 PM
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And they were such good boys, too.
They won't do that again...
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Old 04-04-2017, 11:57 PM
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The mother of one of the perps said that they didn't have a fighting chance against such a powerful rifle.
I understand grief can cloud judgment, but c'mon...are fights with criminals supposed to be fair?

I swear most of these peabrains would rather be virtuous martyrs than survivors.
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Old 04-05-2017, 12:23 AM
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Charged with murder in the first degree...
I don't think a jury will convict her of this unless there is a lot of other evidence. If she coerced them or helped plan the crime, that might seal her fate, but as it stands, this will get pleaded down.
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Old 04-05-2017, 09:27 AM
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I think the murder charge against the woman is wrong. If the perps had killed someone, then yes. To charge her with murder because the perps were killed by the homeowner, no.

If the police had killed one of the perps, would she have been charged with murder? I don't think so.

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Old 04-05-2017, 11:38 AM
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.


When ya stealin' for a livin'......


Getting shot up is just one of those occupational hazards not covered by OSHA.






.
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Old 04-05-2017, 12:05 PM
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The Pillsbury Dough-Girl is just a dime-a-dozen sociopath, looking to blame anybody else for her own aberrant behavior and push the consequences therefrom onto others, including the victim.

The blindingly obvious lesson of this incident is, "If you don't want to get shot, don't commit home invasions." It's just as simple as that.

Her sense of entitlement renders her incapable of even entertaining the option of NOT committing violent crimes against others. Instead, she blames the victims for not meekly submitting to ANYTHING some predator seeks to inflict on them.

Hopefully, seeing their ranks diminished by three, other predators will have second thoughts about preying on others. If not, they will hopefully meet the same fate.
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Old 04-05-2017, 12:45 PM
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I think the murder charge against the woman is wrong. If the perps had killed someone, then yes. To charge her with murder because the perps were killed by the homeowner, no.

If the police had killed one of the perps, would she have been charged with murder? I don't think so.
Under the Felony Murder doctrine, she is culpable.

She was an integral part of the criminal enterprise. She ENABLED the crime by being the getaway driver. I believe I even heard that she had set up the job. Were it not for her, they wouldn't have gone there or gotten shot by the victim.
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Old 04-05-2017, 12:47 PM
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The mother of one of the perps said that they didn't have a fighting chance against such a powerful rifle.
That's the general idea.

If you ever find yourself in a "fair" fight, SOMEBODY screwed up... BADLY.
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Old 04-05-2017, 02:15 PM
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Under the Felony Murder doctrine, she is culpable.

She was an integral part of the criminal enterprise. She ENABLED the crime by being the getaway driver. I believe I even heard that she had set up the job. Were it not for her, they wouldn't have gone there or gotten shot by the victim.



^^^^^^^^


The way I heard it,


That Elizabeth Marie Rodriguez was the ring leader.


After the first go around of burglarizing the garage,
Rodriguez sent the young men back to acquire more loot.


Kinda like a lit'l Ma Barker and her gang.




.
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Old 04-05-2017, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
I think the murder charge against the woman is wrong. If the perps had killed someone, then yes. To charge her with murder because the perps were killed by the homeowner, no.

If the police had killed one of the perps, would she have been charged with murder? I don't think so.
I can't find the source, but I do recall a getaway driver for a bank robbery ran into a tree and the gunman was killed. The driver had never entered the bank, but he was convicted of felony murder since someone died during the commission of a felony.

As far as the statement regarding whether a police officer shooting someone during the course of a felony, the survivors could be charged with felony murder. I am not a lawyer, but I have heard of this happening - can't remember if there was a conviction in that case though.
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Old 04-05-2017, 02:22 PM
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.


When ya stealin' for a livin'......


Getting shot up is just one of those occupational hazards not covered by OSHA.






.
Sounds like they died from natural causes........





.....natural to the course of their lifestyle.
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Old 04-05-2017, 03:17 PM
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"And they were such good boys, too. They sang in the choir, took dinner and blankets to the homeless, and were in the process of turning their lives around." Geesh!! Just once...once...I'd like to hear some mother of these types of scumbags say, "Well, it's about time that worthless piece of junk son of mine got blown away. Heck! I should've drowned him as a pup!"
When Bob Olinger's mother was informed that her son had been killed by Billy the Kid while he was breaking jail in Lincoln she is reported to have said "If there is a Hell I know that Bob is barking in it now."
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Old 04-05-2017, 03:31 PM
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I believe I even heard that she had set up the job. Were it not for her, they wouldn't have gone there or gotten shot by the victim.
If she did set it up, then she should indeed be sentenced for murder. The prosecution will have to bring evidence that she set it up.
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Old 04-05-2017, 03:49 PM
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If she did set it up, then she should indeed be sentenced for murder. The prosecution will have to bring evidence that she set it up.
I believe you'll find that Oklahoma law provides a murder charge (second degree) for anyone involved in the commission of a felony when a homocide occurs in the commission of that felony.
10 to life.
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Old 04-05-2017, 03:53 PM
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If she did set it up, then she should indeed be sentenced for murder. The prosecution will have to bring evidence that she set it up.
Didn't she publicly SAY she did?

I believe on "Law & Order" they call that a "statement against penal interest".

Where I come from, they call it being a big mouthed dummy.
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Old 04-05-2017, 05:15 PM
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Didn't she publicly SAY she did?

I believe on "Law & Order" they call that a "statement against penal interest".

Where I come from, they call it being a big mouthed dummy.
right on the money.

To quote my old Daddy: "90% of convictions are based upon the statements of the accused."

I have no idea about the veracity or accuracy of that statistic, but the spirit is clear.
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Old 04-05-2017, 05:30 PM
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I believe you'll find that Oklahoma law provides a murder charge (second degree) for anyone involved in the commission of a felony when a homocide occurs in the commission of that felony.
10 to life.
Yeah, but she's been charged with 1st degree.

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Didn't she publicly SAY she did?
I don't know, did she? Do you have the article that says that?
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Old 04-05-2017, 05:52 PM
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Yeah, but she's been charged with 1st degree.

I don't know, did she? Do you have the article that says that?




From the OP's link above....


"I won't take responsibility for the murders, I won't. I feel guilty,
but I don't feel responsible," Rodriguez said in an interview
last week with ABC's "World News Tonight with David Muir."


I do believe that is a spontaneous utterance from the defendant.


Anything they say or do, can and will be used against em in a court of law.




Resident 'did what he had to do' in killing teen burglars, alleged getaway driver says - ABC News



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Old 04-05-2017, 06:40 PM
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Yeah, but she's been charged with 1st degree.

I don't know, did she? Do you have the article that says that?
I was only quoting Oklahoma law. I'm not making any statement regarding the charges brought. If I were the prosecutor, I might well ask for first degree. She doesn't look like a good defendant to me...
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Old 04-05-2017, 08:17 PM
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"I won't take responsibility for the murders, I won't. I feel guilty,
but I don't feel responsible," Rodriguez said in an interview
last week with ABC's "World News Tonight with David Muir."
That certainly can be used, but "feeling" guilty is not proof that she was the mastermind behind it all.

However, from the link you posted, "She told ABC News today that they decided on the crime together but that she chose the home." They could use the fact that she chose the home to prosecute her of 1st degree. It was under her direction that they go to that house. Yeah, that'll do it. She's toast.
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Old 04-05-2017, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
I think the murder charge against the woman is wrong. If the perps had killed someone, then yes. To charge her with murder because the perps were killed by the homeowner, no.

If the police had killed one of the perps, would she have been charged with murder? I don't think so.
Yes, she would have been, that is felony murder.
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Old 04-05-2017, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
I think the murder charge against the woman is wrong. If the perps had killed someone, then yes. To charge her with murder because the perps were killed by the homeowner, no.

If the police had killed one of the perps, would she have been charged with murder? I don't think so.
Clearly you don't understand felony murder any better than Elizabeth Rodriguez.

Oklahoma felony murder statute: B. A person also commits the crime of murder in the first degree, regardless of malice, when that person or any other person takes the life of a human being during, or if the death of a human being results from, the commission or attempted commission of murder of another person, shooting or discharge of a firearm or crossbow with intent to kill, intentional discharge of a firearm or other deadly weapon into any dwelling or building as provided in Section 1289.17A of this title, forcible rape, robbery with a dangerous weapon, kidnapping, escape from lawful custody, eluding an officer, first degree burglary, first degree arson, unlawful distributing or dispensing of controlled dangerous substances or synthetic controlled substances, trafficking in illegal drugs, or manufacturing or attempting to manufacture a controlled dangerous substance.
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Last edited by okiegtrider; 04-05-2017 at 11:58 PM. Reason: added statute reference
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Old 04-06-2017, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by snowman View Post
The article states:

"Oklahoma is one of 24 states which have laws allowing citizens to shoot someone if they believe the person threatens their safety, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures."

What??? Only 24? Can someone explain the above to me?

Pardon my ignorance, but something tells me that that statement doesn't, at the very least, tell the whole story -if it can even be regarded as factual as written. Or am I just not thinking correctly?

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This is 'news'. Completeness or accuracy are not factors.
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Old 04-06-2017, 12:43 AM
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I'm very glad to live in a castle doctrine, stand-your-ground state. I hope to hell I never have to avail myself of that legal protection, or shoot anyone; but it's comforting to know it's there.
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