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Old 04-09-2017, 08:25 AM
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while carrying a semi-auto with an unchambered round.


[VIDEO] This Man Carried With An Empty Chamber, And It Cost Him His Life And His Son’s Life – Concealed Nation

Last edited by ladder13; 04-09-2017 at 08:29 AM.
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Old 04-09-2017, 08:43 AM
Lee's Landing Billy Lee's Landing Billy is offline
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ladder, thanks for posting. I hope to Goodness this might change at least one mind.
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Old 04-09-2017, 08:45 AM
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Just my opinion, which is free here so judge for yourself it's worth, but if you can't carry your semi auto w/a round chambered sell it and get a revolver. I've "been there" and you will not have time to chamber a round in a life or death confrontation.
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Old 04-09-2017, 08:54 AM
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Sobering. Not to justify the two executions, but what is not clear is if the storekeeper thought the robber was going to shoot, in which case the only response would have been the use of deadly force. If not, it may have been better to let the robber(s) take his wallet, and not try to draw against someone already pointing a gun at him from 2-3 feet away, and with a functionally unloaded gun.
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Old 04-09-2017, 09:22 AM
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But gee... it looks so easy in the Israeli Method tacticool vids.
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Old 04-09-2017, 09:37 AM
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PLEASE go to the website that this is from and look at all of the postings. I have. What you will notice is one thing that overrides a great deal of what we think we will do. When things go horribly bad for civilians, LEs, bad guys, ALMOST all shoot with ONE HAND. It's hard to overcome a million years of hard wiring. You will look at the saber tooth tiger trying to eat you, not your front sights. I'm not here to argue, just go on YT and look all day today at actual shootings and you will see a vast majority on one handed unsighted shootings. Regardless of level of training.
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Old 04-09-2017, 10:16 AM
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Thank you for sharing.

That is a very important lesson.
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Old 04-09-2017, 10:30 AM
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Tough thing to watch. Over the years on this board, I've always been amazed at how many guys are ok with carrying/keeping a gun without a round in the chamber! When things happen, they happen so quickly, without time to fumble around trying to get yourself geared up.

No offense to those that do this, but I'm convinced that if you are not comfortable, or proficient enough to keep a round in the chamber, you should not carry a gun. Folks that do this are trying to make themselves feel safe, without being safe, and in fact placing themselves in more danger. You're just fooling yourselves with a false sense of security.

Get some training. Carrying a gun is an important responsibility, and worthy of some time and money!
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Old 04-09-2017, 10:32 AM
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Here is a much better description of the event, from a real news source:

Surveillance Video Captured Deadly Robbery at a Lamont Gas Station

A couple facts from the story:

The shop owner fired first.

There was an exchange of gunfire.

I can't find an article anywhere, except the one posted by the OP, that suggests the victim was carrying with an empty chamber. I will agree that he appears to work the slide upon drawing, although I've seen nothing to suggest the reason for doing so. It is possible that he was working the slide because he was unfamiliar with operation of the pistol, and it is also possible that he was carrying on an empty chamber. To me, this video suggests that one should be familiar with the operation of one's pistol, and nothing more.

Condolences to the family.
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Old 04-09-2017, 10:40 AM
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I own and carry S&W DA/SA pistols. I leave the safety off, always, and there is always a round in the chamber. Practically speaking it operates the same as a fully loaded revolver. Get it into your hand and fire it. I knew some deputies that carried with the safety on. They did not understand the pistol, and I told them many times this practice could cost them their life.
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Old 04-09-2017, 10:48 AM
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As shown, foolish and unfamiliar can be a deadly combination.
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Old 04-09-2017, 10:56 AM
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I doubt we'll hear anyone justifying their carry without a round in the chamber in this particular thread. I recognize that some people are not comfortable with a round in the chamber; but what's the root cause of this discomfort?

WHY don't you carry with a round in the chamber?
"It makes me uncomfortable."

WHY are you uncomfortable?
"I'm afraid the gun will go off at the wrong time."

WHY would the gun go off if you don't pull the trigger?
No answer. We've reached the root cause. The person doesn't have an understanding of how modern firearms work. This is simple ignorance which is EASILY corrected with only a little research (owners manual) and critical thinking.

Sadly some find it easier to justify their behavior (the Israelis do it, I practice chambering a round, etc) than to just work it out.

A modern firearm in a proper holster cannot discharge. That's as close to an absolute as one can get when it comes to something mechanical.

I was impressed with the draw displayed by the shop owner. It looked to me like he'd practiced getting his gun out. He didn't point it and realize he needed to get a cartridge in the chamber; he immediately had a hand on the rear of the slide and was trying to get through the process but there wasn't enough time.

Last edited by Mainsail; 04-09-2017 at 11:02 AM. Reason: typos
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Old 04-09-2017, 12:00 PM
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No matter how proficient you are, a drawn gun is hard to beat. And even being first to shoot can end up with you dead. BGs can shoot you, many are proficient, and with handguns, one shot kills are rare.
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Old 04-09-2017, 12:15 PM
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I live by the motto taught by my range instructor," don't practice till you get it right, practice till you can't get it wrong." I carry cocked and locked 1911s, or loaded with one in the chamber on my Glocks, and all 5-6 rounds in my DA revolvers with the hammers down.
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Old 04-09-2017, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
A couple facts from the story:

The shop owner fired first.

There was an exchange of gunfire.

I can't find an article anywhere, except the one posted by the OP, that suggests the victim was carrying with an empty chamber.
I don't even think he was carrying. It appears to me that he stepped back and grabbed the gun from behind the counter. If that is true (i.e., that the gun was hidden behind the counter), then I think it is more likely than not that the gun was fully hot and ready to go.
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Old 04-09-2017, 01:02 PM
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A handgun without a round in the chamber is only slightly more effective than a rock.
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Old 04-09-2017, 05:35 PM
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A good reminder to all. No matter how good you may or may not be. No matter how many scrapes or close calls you have been in. And no matter WHAT type of weapon you choose to carry, you must practice with it and any other type of weapon you choose to carry. I continue to hear the word, " rotation ", when it comes to carry weapons. That's fine but you must be ready to use it and use it effectively. Train, train, train.
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Old 04-10-2017, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KSDeputy View Post
I knew some deputies that carried with the safety on. They did not understand the pistol, and I told them many times this practice could cost them their life.
Only if they weren't practicing properly. I carried that type of pistol as issue for just over 16 years and carried with safety on.[Gave me another barrier in case of a gun grab.] The safety was off before it cleared nylon. The first motion of my thumb released the thumb break, the second flicked the safety. No, it didn't add to the time of a response.

You're entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't make it a natural law.
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Old 04-10-2017, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KSDeputy View Post
I own and carry S&W DA/SA pistols. I leave the safety off, always, and there is always a round in the chamber. Practically speaking it operates the same as a fully loaded revolver. Get it into your hand and fire it. I knew some deputies that carried with the safety on. They did not understand the pistol, and I told them many times this practice could cost them their life.
Nothing wrong with carrying with the safety on, but I agree, you should understand the pistol . . .
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Old 04-10-2017, 10:17 PM
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Our issued weapon was the Glock 23 and we were trained to keep a round chambered, always period. I discovered, through the grapevine, one officer was not doing that so I confronted him (I was the patrol division commander). I ordered him, by way of a formal memorandum to his file, to carry the weapon properly b/c his carelesness could put lives in jeopardy. After 30 years I thought I'd seen/heard everything until then.
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Old 04-11-2017, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TTSH View Post
I don't even think he was carrying. It appears to me that he stepped back and grabbed the gun from behind the counter. If that is true (i.e., that the gun was hidden behind the counter), then I think it is more likely than not that the gun was fully hot and ready to go.
At 1:08/1:09 on Muss' video, you can see him draw from behind his apron. Spam pause/play for ghetto frame-by-frame and it's very easy to see. He might have retrieved it and then tucked it behind the apron.

Contrary to the "commentary" from the anchor, I don't think that he got off the first shot. At 1:09 he rolls his left ankle pretty hard before falling over. You can see some smoke or dust or something coming up from the floor nearby. There's no smoke anywhere near his gun. It looks to me like he took a shot to the leg and fell over.

As he's falling, it appears that he might have gotten a shot or two off, but that could be muzzle blast from the nearest robber.

While he's down, he appears to have some trouble with his gun. He's already wounded by this point. He tries manipulating the slide, but his hands and arms aren't working. He's promptly shot dead.

I don't actually think he ever got his gun working. He was pretty much out of the fight as soon as he got shot (2 seconds), down in 4, dead in 6.

Was he bad at guns? Who the hell knows. He was terrified, and by the time he tried to clear whatever his stoppage was, he was already shot-up. I don't know about you guys, but I've never tried to clear a stoppage with a gunshot wound or two and three guys shooting at me inside a convenience store.

He probably would have been better off trying to stay behind the counter, but the son was exposed and the layout of the store is unclear. For some reason he chose to charge his attackers--moving directly towards them made him very easy to hit while making it harder for him to shoot accurately. Cover, distance, or lateral movement, in that order, would have served him better.

Until he gets killed, he keeps at least trying to fight. In that respect, he did better than most.

Did he make the right decision? Who knows what he was dealing with. For all we know, the Bad Guys just told him and his son to head into the back office. And we all know how that story ends. This could be the least-bad of a terrible set of options.

Lessons? Miserable ones. Simple is better--point and squeeze is good. And there are fights you cannot win.

And perhaps somewhat morbidly, view the situation from the other side. Three armed guys took four seconds to take an ordinary guy out of the fight--six if you count until the sudden volley of fire at 6 seconds that killed him. And this is a situation that, until the point the store owner drew, they had complete control over. If it hadn't been for that early hit, it would've been bloody for both sides.

So don't count on just a couple rounds winning a fight, and don't presume it's going to be over in "2 seconds" or whatever made-up statistic is getting thrown around on the internet these days.

Last edited by Wise_A; 04-11-2017 at 07:15 AM.
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Old 04-11-2017, 08:01 AM
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Did they take the video down? I keep getting "page not found"
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:59 AM
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Did they take the video down? I keep getting "page not found"
The news report link in post #9 will still work. I get the page not found also.
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
...

Was he bad at guns? Who the hell knows. He was terrified, and by the time he tried to clear whatever his stoppage was, he was already shot-up. I don't know about you guys, but I've never tried to clear a stoppage with a gunshot wound or two and three guys shooting at me inside a convenience store.

...

Until he gets killed, he keeps at least trying to fight. In that respect, he did better than most.

Did he make the right decision? Who knows what he was dealing with. For all we know, the Bad Guys just told him and his son to head into the back office. And we all know how that story ends. This could be the least-bad of a terrible set of options.

Lessons? Miserable ones. Simple is better--point and squeeze is good. And there are fights you cannot win.
...
I agree.

According to the news station article/video, he and his son were being pistol whipped with no way to get away. If that happened to me and one of my kids, I'd believe it was a fight or die moment.

In the video, I don't see any way to tell if he had one in the chamber or not. I noticed the "not chambered" commentary from the original link on Concealed Nation was taken down. The gas station owner may have done absolutely everything right, but had a pistol malfunction at bad breath range with no where to go.

No great wisdom on my part, but just because you're in the right, and do everything right, doesn't mean you may not get shot and killed if you're in a gun fight. Especially three against one.
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
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Did they take the video down? I keep getting "page not found"
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The news report link in post #9 will still work. I get the page not found also.
The original *concealednation.org* video is still up on YouTube...


Interesting that they took the story off their website.
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Old 04-11-2017, 12:42 PM
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It doesn't look like the shop keeper ever got his pistol working, sad way to go.
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Old 04-11-2017, 01:11 PM
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No matter what you have heard in the past, the first rule in a gunfight is....Don't Get Shot.
It doesn't matter if you do everything perfect and you get shot, he still kills you back.
For Heaven's sake, run if you can. Flee, run, get the Hell away.
This man had everything against him. He was done before he could get started. Awful.
I can only imagine what his other family members must be going through. Awful.....
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Old 04-11-2017, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee's Landing Billy View Post
PLEASE go to the website that this is from and look at all of the postings. I have. What you will notice is one thing that overrides a great deal of what we think we will do. When things go horribly bad for civilians, LEs, bad guys, ALMOST all shoot with ONE HAND. It's hard to overcome a million years of hard wiring. You will look at the saber tooth tiger trying to eat you, not your front sights. I'm not here to argue, just go on YT and look all day today at actual shootings and you will see a vast majority on one handed unsighted shootings. Regardless of level of training.
Col. Rex Applegate, Capt. W.E. Fairbairn and Capt. E.A. Sykes said that three quarters of a century ago.

http://www.patriotresistance.com/FMF...anuary1990.pdf
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Old 04-11-2017, 02:08 PM
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old, there are probably more people on here that have not read this than have.
I, being old, believe this book is invaluable. They start off saying most shooting is done in four yards. Those stats are still valid today. Unfortunately, many things are counted out just because they are old. Thanks for the link, I hope everybody at least looks at it.
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Old 04-11-2017, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TTSH View Post
The original *concealednation.org* video is still up on YouTube...

Interesting that they took the story off their website.
Concealednation.org, I think, is a little premature in their analysis. It's based entirely on the position of the guy's left hand being roughly in a slingshot position.

However, I've seen a lot of people will knowledge/experience gaps and poorly-fitting guns use that exact movement to deactivate safety/decocker-style levers, and even thumb safeties (yes, really).
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Old 04-12-2017, 01:14 AM
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This happened about 35 miles from me. I don't think this shop owner had a chance regardless of the condition of his gun. He had multiple assailants. Even if he got one, it would be unlikely to get all of them. Further, he definitely doesn't look practiced with his gun.

Whatever you take away from this video, please, please get more training and do more practice. Too many of us don't practice with our self-defense guns. I see it all the time. In CA the CCW must be renewed every two years. Most only fire their gun at the renewal class. That should never happen.
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Old 04-12-2017, 02:17 AM
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Okay if your not comfortable carrying with a round chambered, buy a gun with a safety.
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Old 04-12-2017, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
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This happened about 35 miles from me. I don't think this shop owner had a chance regardless of the condition of his gun. He had multiple assailants. Even if he got one, it would be unlikely to get all of them. Further, he definitely doesn't look practiced with his gun.

Whatever you take away from this video, please, please get more training and do more practice. Too many of us don't practice with our self-defense guns. I see it all the time. In CA the CCW must be renewed every two years. Most only fire their gun at the renewal class. That should never happen.
It sometimes comes down to the classic choice between "slim and none." If you are convinced that the slimebag intends to kill you anyway, you have nothing to lose by trying to fight.
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Old 04-12-2017, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
I doubt we'll hear anyone justifying their carry without a round in the chamber in this particular thread. I recognize that some people are not comfortable with a round in the chamber; but what's the root cause of this discomfort?
Just for sake of discussion....

Maybe some newbies read the owners manual. Ya know some of these owners manuals paint a pretty grim safety picture about carrying one in the chamber if you read it through the eyes of a newbie.

Here's Ruger.



Kimber.


Last edited by ChattanoogaPhil; 04-12-2017 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 04-12-2017, 07:17 PM
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My wife asked me the other night why I had to sit in my gun room and click my gun every night .. Meaning dry fire my carry weapon ..

I explained the more I practice the quicker I would react incase I would ever have to use it .. and told her to read the motto written on the black board .. " Don't train till you get it right !! Train till you can't get it wrong !!" when you can draw and fire with out thinking about each step your doing .. and do it repetitively every time the same .. you have to practice to accomplish that .. just 5 minutes a day makes a huge difference ..

You must be completely familiar with your carry weapon what ever you carry .. and if your leery of carry with one in the chamber get a DA/SA with a safety and carry in a holster that completely covers the trigger .. that's as safe as you can carry a pistol !!

And get training .. as much as you have time for and the money to pay for ..
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Old 04-12-2017, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil View Post
Just for sake of discussion....

Maybe some newbies read the owners manual. Ya know some of these owners manuals paint a pretty grim safety picture about carrying one in the chamber if you read it through the eyes of a newbie.
Tou·ché.

Sometimes I forget the lawyers get a chop on the owner's manuals. But I think you get my point.
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